Belt spindle head lathe help

[barrabruce]

Bought a 40 yr old Clanger Taiwanese lathe and tearing it down to fix and use.
Getting the bull gear off the main spindle was a big effort as it is a interference fit.
Or it is now.
I ended up dinging the area where the seal runs.
I could borrow a lathe and polish it out I think and be good to go as well as the gear shaft so next time I need to change a belt it will be only a 4 day job.
Ha
264116
It looks worse than it really is but with new seals and a polish up I think it will work.
The gears are sort of soft but it does have double taper bearings.
I don’t know yet if I’ll change out the bearings out as they seem o.k. and run them as they are.
It has been run dry for a while hence the galling where the bronze pulley bearings run.
It’s not in too bad a nick for it’s age.
I sorted the gear box out On the saddle which was put back to gather wrong and the quick change gear box.
Found a few missing bits.
It hasn’t been used much thou.
Some machinist help here would be welcome.
Thanks.
Bruce

[Scrounge]

Bought a 40 yr old Clanger Taiwanese lathe and tearing it down to fix and use.
Getting the bull gear off the main spindle was a big effort as it is a interference fit.
Or it is now.
I ended up dinging the area where the seal runs.
I could borrow a lathe and polish it out I think and be good to go as well as the gear shaft so next time I need to change a belt it will be only a 4 day job.
Ha

It looks worse than it really is but with new seals and a polish up I think it will work.
The gears are sort of soft but it does have double taper bearings.
I don’t know yet if I’ll change out the bearings out as they seem o.k. and run them as they are.
It has been run dry for a while hence the galling where the bronze pulley bearings run.
It’s not in too bad a nick for it’s age.
I sorted the gear box out On the saddle which was put back to gather wrong and the quick change gear box.
Found a few missing bits.
It hasn’t been used much thou.
Some machinist help here would be welcome.
Thanks.
Bruce

I'm only a student machinist, but I've been a mechanic for a while. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help. Do you have a manual for the lathe?

[barrabruce]

Thnx scrounge I have downloaded a couple of generic manuals for this.
It was build in ‘81 labeled Mcmillian.
It has a blistering speed of 1240 rpm full noise
Have a grizzly and lantane manual which is mostly the same same with maybe a few differences.

264117

With it’s 1 hp motor and tool steel I’ll be as good as it gets for 1910.
Ha
But I’m in no great rush and a belt driven lathe it pretty quiet running only the belts.

How rough can a shaft be and the oil seals still work?If it goes bad I could always get a one of the seal sleeves that fix shafts up. With the flange and you press on then rip of which leave razor sharp burrs that slice new wipes like butter.

[barrabruce]

I’ve been thinking.
My concern is if I make the bull gear a looser fit then it would be only the key way holding back all the cutter force while in the lower gear ratio’s.
I suppose if it doesn’t rock it should be ‘ok.
What does the brains trust think?

[uscra112]

There are thin steel sleeves made for repair of damaged rear main bearing seal journals in engines, without having to take the engine apart. The metal is only about .015 thick, so the original dimension seal can be used. Where you get 'em I don't know, but the internet might help. If you have another lathe, you might even be able to make one. I'd use hard brass, in the case of your lathe. RPM is low, and there's no pressure behind the seal.

[Cap'n Morgan]

It's only a lathe. As long as the oil level is below the shaft it probably wont leak.
It seems as the top plate is hinged, just open it and give the bearings a squirt of oil whenever you start up the lathe.
This was common practice in the days of bushing bearings.

[Scrounge]

Thnx scrounge I have downloaded a couple of generic manuals for this.
It was build in ‘81 labeled Mcmillian.
It has a blistering speed of 1240 rpm full noise
Have a grizzly and lantane manual which is mostly the same same with maybe a few differences.

264117

With it’s 1 hp motor and tool steel I’ll be as good as it gets for 1910.
Ha
But I’m in no great rush and a belt driven lathe it pretty quiet running only the belts.

How rough can a shaft be and the oil seals still work?If it goes bad I could always get a one of the seal sleeves that fix shafts up. With the flange and you press on then rip of which leave razor sharp burrs that slice new wipes like butter.

Does it pump oil to the bearings, or use splash, or what? Except for the little asian 7x10, my lathes are vintage 1940's, so they use total loss lube. You fill the oil cup each time you get ready to run the lathe, and refill if you're going to be there very long. The 7x10 apparently has no provision for lubing the headstock at all. A lot of the folks using them mod the headstock to allow lubing the spindle one way or another. You could add a means to do that and not sweat the seal at all, perhaps. The Atlas just got new felts the other day. The South Bend 10L is a total restoration project that's been hanging fire for over a year and a half. It's not near running yet, but uses similar cups from Gits Manufacturing. Amazon has a bunch of possible solutions: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=gits+oil+cup&i=industrial&hvadid=7005204403&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&tag=mh0b-20&ref=pd_sl_321i180vqz_e from Gits and others.

Here is a link for a drip oiler for inspiration: https://myfordboy.blogspot.com/p/drip-feed-oiler.html

There are thousands of them available commercially, but I've got a little project also hanging fire to make some from 1oz jars from Michael's, the art & home decoration store, for my Lewis shaper. Depending on how much oil you think you need you could go with anything from a gallon jug to a half-pint jelly jar, or any kind of tank or bottle. One of the short-term jobs I had, I rigged similar oilers for a conveyor system using laundry detergent bottles and vinyl hose. Proprietors were too cheap to buy something, and had fired their maintenance guy some months before I started working there as a temp.

Did I mention that I'm a cheap bastrich? ;) The 10L will get (as best I can) the proper Gits oilers, but I'm probably making everything else I can just for the experience of doing it.

[country gent]

The raised metal on the dings ( this is what will destroy the seals very quickly) can be removed with careful use of a file or backed fine sand paper, If you want to get real energetic A very small polished ball peen can be used around the outside working in lightly to move the metal back where it came from first.

On the bull gear does it have a set screw locking it? A lot of machines gears and hubs were fit with gib keys. the top face of the key and bottom of the key way are at a 5* taper and fit so a few taps set them tight. Draw back is they have to be fit together. If you go this route drill and tap a threaded hole in the big end for future removal LOL

[Ozark mike]

There are thin steel sleeves made for repair of damaged rear main bearing seal journals in engines, without having to take the engine apart. The metal is only about .015 thick, so the original dimension seal can be used. Where you get 'em I don't know, but the internet might help. If you have another lathe, you might even be able to make one. I'd use hard brass, in the case of your lathe. RPM is low, and there's no pressure behind the seal.

Speedi sleeve

[uscra112]

That's them. Couldn't remember the name.

https://www.mcmaster.com/speedi-sleeves/

Pity the don't have 'em in metric sizes.

[barrabruce]

Well it’s all metric made imperial lathe.

I don’t want to hopefully take it apart again and I thought if I’m going to make chips with this I may as well start with new bearings as well and give myself some hope.
I ordered new tapered bearings and seals.
and a speedy sleeve (which I couldn’t remember either) which being imperial is 59.12 mm or about 4 thou over the 59mm dead nuts shaft so a bit of Loctite ought to fix that bungle.

The bearings are fed by oil caps up the top of the bearing housings in the headstock and Form a individual reservoir that must be splash fed about centre hight of shaft.

The sight glasses need to be prised out to empty and the hole emerges at the centre of the glass meaning one should fill the sight glass up to ensure there is actually oil in there. This is on this one anyway.Hold about 100ml maybe???

The large bull gear at the front of the head stock Is held in with key which is (==) shaped end milled into the shaft And a friction fit.
I reset that fit which is now a light press fit so it can be tapped on and off without excessive force and duress.
I’m hoping that will be enough.
I could alway loctite that in place if it becomes an issue.


The belt pulley and small bull gear assembly only rotates when in slow ratio’s and the minor galling on the bronze bushes at one end should not be detrimental given the speed.

I’m starting to think I should’ve got some of that linked belt.

Probably work out the same price in the end.
I’ve already wasted $25 Aus on it for the belts and two small bearings and odd and sods.
May as well sell the dog for scientific ex -spearmints too.

[barrabruce]

264193
Supposed to look like this mostly.
But mine is just an empty box at the moment.

[uscra112]

Sounds like you've got it under control.

Whoa! Do I see a vee-belt that's running in oil? Say it ain't so, bro!

[Moleman-]

Check the bronze bearings inside of the pulley that goes behind the back gear. The ones in my 1953 Sheldon lathe are so worn it has a tick as it goes around as the bore in the pulley bearings is larger than the spindle. I've got a set of over sized bearings that at some point I'll set up and machine to fit the pulley and spindle correctly. The sheldon doesn't have any seals on that pulley so you squirt some oil down a setscrew oil hole before using the back gears.

[flintlocke]

Not a machinist but 50+ years heavy equipment field repair. Seal surface ding: From the looks of the picture, I would be inclined to use a fairly fine carborundum stone or oilstone stroking the ding circumferencially until you can no longer feel it with your fingertip. A little prussian blue, if you don't trust your fingertip. "Fixed" several rock crusher shafts this way. Holding the bull gear: Loctite 680 is truly the mechanical marvel of this century, I have saved customers thousands of dollars since it came on the market a few years ago.

[barrabruce]

264208
The skewers are put into the holes that form the fill hole and sight glass.
There is a seal in either side of the bearing housing that forms the bath.

Only if you get excited with the oiling of the bushings will you get The belts to run in oil on this machine.

It is a simple lathe and pretty quiet with out the drive chain of spur gears running.
Should just purr when I’m finished hopefully.



The pulleys and other gear are a close fit still in the bronze bushing so they should be good to go.
Yes you have to take out a grub screw to oil the bushings to run the back gears.

I had a tick also when running with the belts that just about fell apart.
I found the pulleys on the motor drive end we’re loose and could run up and down on its shaft.
It was slopping on the key when the belts hit the missing bits.tightening the grub screw helped.
Ha

[uscra112]

So the gears run dry? Or maybe with some sort of tenacious grease?

(Come to think about it, my old Pratt & Whitney with the flat belt drive was like that.)

[john.k]

The older Taiwanese lathes of this size(13x40) generally have an odd bearing on the spindle .....looks like a conventional taper roller ,but the outer race is also tapered on the OD fit into the casting.......these are no longer available ,just the cylindrical OD race version of the same bearing.......so do check this feature before removing bearings for rplacement............and ,no the V belt doesnt run in oil........neither do the gears .....just rely on a bit of grease.

[barrabruce]

Check the bronze bearings inside of the pulley that goes behind the back gear. The ones in my 1953 Sheldon lathe are so worn it has a tick as it goes around as the bore in the pulley bearings is larger than the spindle. I've got a set of over sized bearings that at some point I'll set up and machine to fit the pulley and spindle correctly. The sheldon doesn't have any seals on that pulley so you squirt some oil down a setscrew oil hole before using the back gears.

I checked mine and have 7 thou on one end and 8 thou clearance on the other end of the 51mm shaft.
It has gauled ? where it was run dry at the ends. Inch or so
But it would have been a bit tighter fit.
There is a oil feed groove cut into them ending in a circumference groove. That’s where the gauling is.
They’re is play and I hope it don’t go tinker tink ��

John K the bearings and seats are parallel in this one. It must be a modern one built in 1981.
I don’t know how big a swing it has till I put it back together but it’s about 3.5" over the apron to centre height.

Getting good bearings maybe an issue.
Std ones run about 0.001" tolerance.
The low end precision ones 1/2 that then I think it goes till your money runs out.

Don’t know much of a difference it would make.

I wonder if 1 thou in 2" or 4" equates to 5 ten thou at 1”

[deltaenterprizes]

Looks like the little Jet lathe I ran in 1999 when I first started my first job in a machine shop!
Buy a linked belt so you don’t have to take it apart to replace the belt.

[barrabruce]

Looks like the little Jet lathe I ran in 1999 when I first started my first job in a machine shop!
Buy a linked belt so you don’t have to take it apart to replace the belt.

Yep next time I will not be disturbing anything if not needed.
Ha
Good to have it ALL to bits and a retune.
See what I actually bought.
Hopefully I maybe able to make something agricultural with when I’m finished.
I’m waiting on bearings and seals for it.
Hopefully I can get some good grade bearings.
Every manufacturer has their own std’s and labeling if you can find a catalogue with tolerances in it.
:killingpc
Keeping me occupied while it’s raining.

[barrabruce]

I’m trying to sort out some of the possibilities to put this back together and get the spindle pre loaded and running true.
I’m figuring a slow drying Loctite so one could assemble everything and hopefully tweak things into place.
Or am I being just anal about this?

The bronze bushings in the pulley drive seem to have no play on the face of it when assembled.
Well they don’t rattle anyway.
I think I’ll leave them as they are.
The bull gear lock pin is a bit loose in the drive and it can rattle about 1/2 a tooth being not bad but only slightly flogged out.
I cut another with a drill and reground it on an angle grinder to get more depth of engagement.
264685.
Hopefully it won’t tink or make wild finish on the work piece.

I’ll have two engagements now so I can keep the good one for fine finish cuts or just keep drilling new ones balancing up the gear as well as lightening it.See how much or any it improvements will be made.

Hopefully I can get some p5 bearings the end of next week.
If things work out.
They are not that easy to find when you want them.

Fingers crossed.

I can’t see any beater grade making much difference.
But I would like to try and get the best out of them.

The only thing I haven’t messed with yet is the electric motor.
Maybe I should check the bearings in that too.

One day maybe making chips.

I’ll post more if anyone is interested.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes a Speedy Sleeve is the correct fix for your problem. They are sold at any Bearing House which you probably have in the bigger cities in AUS.

They work great on any Seal Runner that is gooned. Crank Seals on engines get worn and leak due to dirt. Speedy Sleeve is the fix for that too.

They come in a Bazillion different sizes so you should be able to find one that will work.,

Randy

[Scrounge]

I’m trying to sort out some of the possibilities to put this back together and get the spindle pre loaded and running true.
I’m figuring a slow drying Loctite so one could assemble everything and hopefully tweak things into place.
Or am I being just anal about this?

The bronze bushings in the pulley drive seem to have no play on the face of it when assembled.
Well they don’t rattle anyway.
I think I’ll leave them as they are.
The bull gear lock pin is a bit loose in the drive and it can rattle about 1/2 a tooth being not bad but only slightly flogged out.
I cut another with a drill and reground it on an angle grinder to get more depth of engagement.
264685.
Hopefully it won’t tink or make wild finish on the work piece.

I’ll have two engagements now so I can keep the good one for fine finish cuts or just keep drilling new ones balancing up the gear as well as lightening it.See how much or any it improvements will be made.

Hopefully I can get some p5 bearings the end of next week.
If things work out.
They are not that easy to find when you want them.

Fingers crossed.

I can’t see any beater grade making much difference.
But I would like to try and get the best out of them.

The only thing I haven’t messed with yet is the electric motor.
Maybe I should check the bearings in that too.

One day maybe making chips.

I’ll post more if anyone is interested.

I'm still interested. ;)

[barrabruce]

Well here is something different.
264905
I can’t see how this is supposed to seal the oil in.

One side of the bearing chamber has. Slip over collar with set screws to hold it in place.
There is an integral groove which maybe a o-ring should have been placed in there.

The opposite side has a key groove all the way through it.

The oil seals seat on the outside of the bushes but there seems to be nothing stopping the oil leaking out.
The oil level is about centre line of the spindle.

Maybe you pump a bit of silicone in the key way before tightening up the bearing caps and preload them before it sets up.

Or maybe it is a slow total loss system like the norton type quick change gear box.

Any ideas here folks?

[Scrounge]

Well here is something different.
264905
I can’t see how this is supposed to seal the oil in.

One side of the bearing chamber has. Slip over collar with set screws to hold it in place.
There is an integral groove which maybe a o-ring should have been placed in there.

The opposite side has a key groove all the way through it.

The oil seals seat on the outside of the bushes but there seems to be nothing stopping the oil leaking out.
The oil level is about centre line of the spindle.

Maybe you pump a bit of silicone in the key way before tightening up the bearing caps and preload them before it sets up.

Or maybe it is a slow total loss system like the norton type quick change gear box.

Any ideas here folks?

1. https://metalworkforums.com/f65/t199319-help-operation-manuals-mcmillan-ml-36-a this looks like it's similar or the same as your lathe, and it's also where link #2 comes from.

2. http://machine.archives.verhey.org/files/original/5f4263a728a58eed55c86cfe8d87dae6.pdf

This is supposedly for a lathe similar to yours. The diagram of the headstock shows three oil seals. Parts key on the following page lists the dimensions of the the seals. Looks like a standard labyrinth seal, and that may be enough info to get them. It should at least help you figure out where to measure to figure out what you need for yours, IF it's as close as I hope. Good luck!

Bill

[barrabruce]

264917
Is it supposed to seal on the yellow machined faces.
It would make sense then.
The bearings are the same but the seals are slightly different size.
Thnx

[barrabruce]

264918
This shows the position roughly where it will be with the gear spacer must have a gap to provide take up and preload.
There is a very fine surface on the sleeve and bearing to provide a seal.

The other side has grub screws to provide pressure to seal it on the otherside of the bearing race.
The bearing is a light press fit on the shaft.

Weird ain’t it.

Now I have it figured out I’m pretty sure it’s one of those just works if it just perfect things.
Ha and I thought it was going to a problem child.
:shock:
[smilie=s:

[Scrounge]

264917
Is it supposed to seal on the yellow machined faces.
It would make sense then.
The bearings are the same but the seals are slightly different size.
Thnx

I'm not there looking at the machine, but I believe the area I've colored in blue is the actual seal area for Seal #4 in the parts list. 264919264920

That part is on the list as #36 Spur gear. Opposite side of the bearing is another seal, #30, but the drawing isn't showing a ring like you have in your photo. There is a ring there, but it looks like it's very narrow. Or I'm going blind, which is distinctly possible. In either case maybe this isn't good enough for what you need. I'll hunt as I can and see if I can find anything that matches the photos you took. Better tech data is always good.

Bill

[barrabruce]

No I think you are right.
I got a good size seal to go I the bush with the groove.

Apparently it is a feature of these lathes they leak or they don’t.
There is a small area between the chamfer on the inside of he bearing race and the key groove in the "spur gear" and its outside chamfer..
Call it a bees Willy.
It must have been made to exacting "Engineering drawing specs" Just gotta love’ Em.

I’m thinking if one was lucky a drop of Loctite just there would provide a seal.

A Soft copper crush/seal washer but Unable to find a suitable thickness.

I may dam up the key way on the gear side with plastic metal and a wrap of ptfe tape may provide a seal on the take up lock washers.

So many options that may sorta work.

Thnx for your help and effort you have gone through.
I find these things interesting/ perplexing too when I see them.
If you figure any else out let me know.

[barrabruce]

Well finally got some p5 bearings from *** in Germany.
I had manicured the spindle pretty good with the old bearings for fit as well as everything else.

I had a sleeve made out of bronze for the non obtainable bearing seal to fit a normal stock one.
Cost me a swag.
Ghee I am gunna be rich if I can charge like that.
I could have made it myself if I had a lathe or more importantly been able to find some 3" bronze to cut it out of around here.

Any hoo I’m over it.
I spent a hr or so scraping in inside out for the sleeve to fit into it. 5thou

It all fitted it all back together without hitch.

I put the inside bearing seals in the headstock first then used my bit drill chuck to hold the spindle with the main outside bearing Against its seat.
The spindle kept pretty centred with a bit of drop.

The bull gear went on with a bit of Loctite and a smooth tap/shove with the pully wheels.

The bearing sleeve that ubutts the Pulleys I put an Oring in and set screwed it in place.

Holding up the now sagging spindle with all this weight on it and getting the back bearing and tightening sleeve on was the defining moment but somehow managed to get the flange with the seal and all on without tearing the Seal or getting into trouble.
This is where I needed a few extra hands but some how survived to ordeal of juggling everything thing.

I did leave a bit of DNA and blood samples to prove I actually dundit thou.

Have made a few chips and have been tuning it in here and there.

Got an annoying tink in a gear in the banjo but I think it is the spigot that holds the banjo and it pivots off is a bit out of sorts.
And the back gears make a bit of a noise.
I think it is mainly due to the fact they are are bit loose on the shaft and may put a gear nipple on there and grease fill it to help firm it up a bit maybe.

Made some tool holders for 1/4" round tool steel because I thought I ordered 2x pieces and ended up with 2x packets of 5 pieces 4" long.
Wondered why they seemed spendy at the time.

Well here she is as it stands at the moment.
Not a bad finish for a bit of gal water pipe at that length hang out.
I may need to tweet the bearings a smidge as it left a hardly see able vibration wave;but I might bolt it to the stand properly first and put something under the metal feet.

265647
265648

I don’t think Harry Pope would have had much to worry about.
Ha:D

The most important thing after I make a bench and put the grinder on a stand is..

How do you keep all the tiny bits of swarf from following you around into house.

[uscra112]

Gotta wonder about engineers who design things that can't be assembled without bloodletting. :lol:

Something I learned in my early career in the machine tool biz: Timken spindle bearing preload needs to be adjusted for a target RPM. Set 'em tight and you get good runout at low RPM, but they'll heat up if you run the spindle fast. Set 'em for high RPM, and the runout at slow speeds deteriorates. Made it very hard to pass a runoff test sometimes. deVlieg actually had an hydraulically adjustable preload in some of their later machines.

[Scrounge]

Well finally got some p5 bearings from *** in Germany.
I had manicured the spindle pretty good with the old bearings for fit as well as everything else.

I had a sleeve made out of bronze for the non obtainable bearing seal to fit a normal stock one.
Cost me a swag.
Ghee I am gunna be rich if I can charge like that.
I could have made it myself if I had a lathe or more importantly been able to find some 3" bronze to cut it out of around here.

Any hoo I’m over it.
I spent a hr or so scraping in inside out for the sleeve to fit into it. 5thou

It all fitted it all back together without hitch.

I put the inside bearing seals in the headstock first then used my bit drill chuck to hold the spindle with the main outside bearing Against its seat.
The spindle kept pretty centred with a bit of drop.

The bull gear went on with a bit of Loctite and a smooth tap/shove with the pully wheels.

The bearing sleeve that ubutts the Pulleys I put an Oring in and set screwed it in place.

Holding up the now sagging spindle with all this weight on it and getting the back bearing and tightening sleeve on was the defining moment but somehow managed to get the flange with the seal and all on without tearing the Seal or getting into trouble.
This is where I needed a few extra hands but some how survived to ordeal of juggling everything thing.

I did leave a bit of DNA and blood samples to prove I actually dundit thou.

Have made a few chips and have been tuning it in here and there.

Got an annoying tink in a gear in the banjo but I think it is the spigot that holds the banjo and it pivots off is a bit out of sorts.
And the back gears make a bit of a noise.
I think it is mainly due to the fact they are are bit loose on the shaft and may put a gear nipple on there and grease fill it to help firm it up a bit maybe.

Made some tool holders for 1/4" round tool steel because I thought I ordered 2x pieces and ended up with 2x packets of 5 pieces 4" long.
Wondered why they seemed spendy at the time.

Well here she is as it stands at the moment.
Not a bad finish for a bit of gal water pipe at that length hang out.
I may need to tweet the bearings a smidge as it left a hardly see able vibration wave;but I might bolt it to the stand properly first and put something under the metal feet.

265647
265648

I don’t think Harry Pope would have had much to worry about.
Ha:D

The most important thing after I make a bench and put the grinder on a stand is..

How do you keep all the tiny bits of swarf from following you around into house.

Guy I talked to once some years ago kept a pair of work shoes in the shop, and changed into another pair when he left the shop. Cowboys here(believe you folks call them drovers) had boot brushes near the doors to brush off the grunge those folks get on their boots. Something like this, with stiff bristles might work for you: https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200670185_200670185?cm_mmc=Bing-pla&utm_source=Bing_PLA&utm_medium=Clothing%20%2B%20Footwear%20%3E%20Footw ear&utm_campaign=Yaktrax&utm_content=53996&msclkid=ae9f3bab1bf61adb3542648cb9d10dcc or this: https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_7173_7173

I'll be looking for something like that soon, myself.