1873, 1892, 1894

[bigted]

I have been disappointed in the chamber sizes in the '73' and '92'. Do not know about the marlin's chamber.

I am ready to begin my own journey into the 44 WCF because of this large chamber problem with the (Favorite cartridge of mine) the 45 Colt cartridge ... the problem child of the 73 and 92 rifles [ Miruko Japanese built winchesters ].

I am of the impression that the 44-40 chambered lever guns have a more appealing chamber size rather then the rather generous chambers found with the Colt 45 chambers.

Again I have no reports on the Marlin 94 ... either the JM models nor the new Remlin models in 45 Colt.

My question is two fold ...

1- can I please get some info from reloaders on the past as well as present Marlin 94 offerings ... chamber wise ... in the 45Colt? Do they run large like the new Jap-chesters?

2- same querry as to the 44-40 chambers in all three models. Are they generous like the Jap-Chesters chambered in the 45 Colt?

My japchester 92 was large enough that I could finger seat a .457 inch boolit in an unsized fired case. If sizing back for the .454 boolits ... my case life took a spankin and would split after just a few loadings.

My japchester 73 is a bit smaller but the fired and flaired cases will take .455/.456 inch boolits and even tho they do not split as soon ... it still is pretty hard on splitting after a few more loadings then the Colt chambered 92.

If the 44-40 chambers are the same over size in the new 92 or 73 rifles ... then I will not waste anymore hard earned dollars on new rifles that just ruin my brass in just a few loadings.

I have 45 Colt brass fired over and over in my second gen Colt SAA. The new rifles though will take new Rem cases and Starline cases and split them in short order. My old rem and starline brass shot in the Colt ... while losing one every once in a while ... just keep getting loaded and loaded ... and loaded.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
We have numerous 1892 Winchester 44 WCF in rifles and carbines. They all have different diameters in the barrel. But we have only one that has a near pristine bore That one is the tightest bore .428 and will fire a .427 cast with 3F into nice little cloverleafs if I can keep all the wiggles under control sitting behind cross sticks.
The others range from .430 up to .434+..
Our 1873 rifles and carbines are also fat bore... But when we work with in the parameters of what they are no issue.
Our two pre 1898 Marlins are also large bore.
Both companies were in business to make money not produce bench rest rifles. They worked with in tolerances but again these were barrels that all shot well new. But the soft metals used back then did wear. Throw in some dust clinging to cast slugs and wear gets accelerated. Cleaning issues out on the range probably helped out the wear factor.
So in the end the well driven "model T" barrels are not NOS specs. But if we an learn to be smarter than an old barrel it still will shoot well.
Mike in LLama Land

[Nobade]

And as you know, load them with soft lead and black powder the groove diameter doesn't matter much within reason.

[pietro]

.

No disrespect, fellas, but bigted is concerned about chamber size, and not bore size.



For myself, I (alas) have no answer for his chamber size question. :bigsmyl2:


.

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

I have a Japchester 1892 that was 45 Colt. After years of frustration trying to get "decent" accuracy I sent it John Taylor for gender reassignment surgery. The barrel stamp now reads 44WCF and I could't be happier. The rifle is very accurate and his work is beautiful. The one and only action modification was to take a few thousandths of of the extractor tip. Just an option to consider as it was much cheaper then a new rifle.
I am not a member of the Marlin Owners Forum but I have read of the same problems in their 1894 45 Colt rifles on that site. One of the problems is trying to get that big fat straight walled case to feed into the chamber. I would think that the 1873 design would allow for a tighter chamber, but many of the 1873 owners complain about over sized chambers also.
I have found the 44WCF easy to reload and accurate to 200 meters in my 1892 Japchester and 1873 Uberti rifles.

The Japchester 45 Colt chamber was insanely huge. If I "neck sized" the case it would have a visible bottle neck to it. I could thumb seat .460 cast bullets deep into unsized cases.

The Uberti and the Japchester can each easily chamber fired , unsized brass from the other rifle. At least with these two examples chamber size is at least fairly uniform.

[bigted]

Yes I have never had problems with bore diameters (within reason). My concern is in the chamber and if it did not split cases with regularity ... that would not bother me either.

My 92 got a bulged barrel ahead of the chamber rite under the rear dovetail ... at first I was very dismayed ... however looking back, I thing the bulge is a blessing in disguise.

Now I get the opportunity to rebarrel and as Mr Taylor had religned an old 1893 Marlin 38-55 for me years ago ... think I will be trying to send him my 92 for a ""reassignment" surgery also.

The 44 WCF is my prime desire as the 45 Colt ( again my past favorite ) has the very straight walled case dimensions, think I want to either go that route OR my new fondness ... the 38 WCF. My old '73' from yesteryear is a hoot to load and shoot. Beings I am already set for the 38 WCF ... might just lean towards it.

Thinking a nice strong Winchester '92' chambered in 38 WCF of modern make and strong steel MIGHT just ring true.

24 inch round rifle barrel, full length mag tube, my my my ... think I just talked myself into it ... now ... 38 WCF or 44 WCF ... hummm.

[Outpost75]

Cannot speak for the Japchesters, but my Marlin 1894S in .44-40 made in 1993 for the Jerry's Sport Shops run has a .430 groove diameter in its Microgroove barrel and a .447" chamber neck which permits loading .430" diameter bullets in Starline brass and the rifle is accurate. The body of the chamber below the bottleneck shoulder is not oversized and brass lasts a long time. I use Redding dies.

[bigted]

Cannot speak for the Japchesters, but my Marlin 1894S in .44-40 made in 1993 for the Jerry's Sport Shops run has a .430 groove diameter in its Microgroove barrel and a .447" chamber neck which permits loading .430" diameter bullets in Starline brass and the rifle is accurate. The body of the chamber below the bottleneck shoulder is not oversized and brass lasts a long time. I use Redding dies.

Good of you for your reply outpost. Also good to know about the earlier Marlin 44-40 chamber and bore diameter. Had never asked about the Marlin 44 WCF chamber. Great to know that they are in spec. Thanks

[Outpost75]

Good of you for your reply outpost. Also good to know about the earlier Marlin 44-40 chamber and bore diameter. Had never asked about the Marlin 44 WCF chamber. Great to know that they are in spec. Thanks

My Spanish El Tigre copy of the Winchester 1892 has a .448" diameter chamber neck, as did also an Interarms Rossi Puma .44-40 I used to have. On both of those also the chamber body behind the bottleneck was snug enough that firing blackpowder loads in Winchester brass it would seal the chamber and not permit BP fouling to blow back into the action, so that cleanup was easy.

The Rossi barrel was .430 groove diameter and the El Tigre bore was actually tapered, being .432 groove diameter at the breech end, and diminishing towards the muzzle to .425". GREAT shooter by the way!

264143

I had John Taylor set back, rebreech and fit a barrel underlug on a Numrich 1894S Marlin Microgroove .44-40 barrel and fit this onto a WW1 era H&R .44 shotgun for me. After cutting off threads, setting back and cutting a new chamber barrel finished 19-1/2" and the gun is 34-1/2 inches overall, weighing only 4 pounds! Disassembles and stows in a backpack, 2-inch, five-shot iron sight groups at 50 yards, great as back packer and spare deer camp gun. Seven deer so far have fallen to it. Great companion for my 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter or 1920 Colt New Service.

264135

He also rechambered my .44-40 Ruger Vaquero to enlarge the chamber necks to .447 and the cylinder throats to .4305 from the way too tight original Ruger dimensions. His reamer is of correct dimensions to load .430" diameter bullets in Starline brass for either rifle or revolver. I use the same basic load in all of my .44-40 rifles and revolvers both old and new, I cast Accurate 43-206H from 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, lube with 45-45-10 and load 6 grains of Bullseye, which is a "full-charge" load, 950 fps revolver, 1180 fps carbine.

264132264133264134

If readers haven't figured it out by now, the .44-40 Winchester is my favorite of all classic rifle and revolver cartridges. It does all that is required...

"a little powder, a lotta lead, shoot'em once, they'll be dead."

[Baltimoreed]

My older JM 1894 Marlin Cowboy ltd [24 inch octagon bbl] .45lc chamber creates fired brass with an obvious bulge on one side of the case but it never splits a case and it never misses. Definitely a weird chamber. Ive had it for many years and shot a bunch of matches. Joined sass in 1996, badge number 11754. Only recently gotten into .44-40 rifles, have an original Winchester musket from 1891 and a new 1866 uberti musket. No problems reloading for them. Enjoy them both.

[Randy Bohannon]

The bulge in brass with the 45Colt chambered rifles is a must , it’s the only way to get the 45 Colt to work in a lever gun.Thats why it was never chambered in lever guns originally, it was unacceptable for the companies.
The old steel RCBS with yellow labels dies take the bulge out of brass that is bulged. My Win/Miroku 92 shoots very well with .460” bullets. The 44-40 WCF was designed to work flawless in the lever gun and does it well.

[Nobade]

I replied to the second post mistakenly. Oops... on the cases, my Marlin 45 colt only gets sized to where the base of the bullet is, and well annealed. The loaded rounds look like fat 44wcf cases but they seal the chamber, feed well, and are accurate. That ammo won't fit in my revolver so they have to be kept separate.

[lightload]

The bulge in brass with the 45Colt chambered rifles is a must , it’s the only way to get the 45 Colt to work in a lever gun.Thats why it was never chambered in lever guns originally, it was unacceptable for the companies.
The old steel RCBS with yellow labels dies take the bulge out of brass that is bulged. My Win/Miroku 92 shoots very well with .460” bullets. The 44-40 WCF was designed to work flawless in the lever gun and does it well.

Randy, will you explain why a bulge is needed in 45 Colt lever rifles?

[Texas by God]

I think Randy is referring to the bulge enabling the fired case to seal the chamber against blowback ( presuming light loads). The original 1873 version of the .45 Colt had a tiny rim- just enough to headspace in a SAA- rifles weren't even a thought then. The current( since 1909?) version has more of a rim.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[bigted]

My imagination werkin here.

Betcha those huge chambers that cause the brass ruination with the bulges are because of the perfectly straight walled cases in the huge 45 Colt. They have ton's more surface area and with the straight walled case ... when shooting and the resultant brass swell from ignition ... with that huge case ... extraction would be effected if the chamber was nice n tight to begin with. Extraction of any lesser cartridge ... and especially those necked AND tapered original cases chambered in the 73, 92's and Marlin's 1894 rifles chambered mainly in revolver size chambers ... would be a bit or a lot easier to extract.

Dang ol 45 Colt is a dandy revolver cartridge but maybe a bit much for the rifles with their rather more flimsy extraction process compared to the straight line rammer found along the barrel of the old '73' Colt SAA revolver.

Just concurring with statements found above. Still very frustrating to be sure.

[indian joe]

My imagination werkin here.

Betcha those huge chambers that cause the brass ruination with the bulges are because of the perfectly straight walled cases in the huge 45 Colt. They have ton's more surface area and with the straight walled case ... when shooting and the resultant brass swell from ignition ... with that huge case ... extraction would be effected if the chamber was nice n tight to begin with. Extraction of any lesser cartridge ... and especially those necked AND tapered original cases chambered in the 73, 92's and Marlin's 1894 rifles chambered mainly in revolver size chambers ... would be a bit or a lot easier to extract.

Dang ol 45 Colt is a dandy revolver cartridge but maybe a bit much for the rifles with their rather more flimsy extraction process compared to the straight line rammer found along the barrel of the old '73' Colt SAA revolver.

Just concurring with statements found above. Still very frustrating to be sure.

I woulda thought the problem was as much about reliable feed as it is about extraction? ........perticularly in the 92 where the round is entering the chamber at an angle off the lifter .....

[bigted]

Joe, betcha that is another big consideration. All in all ... thinkin there be good reason that ol John never chambeted any levers in the grand old REVOLVER 45 Colt cartridge. My '73' Japchester, 16 inch barrel is so chambered and ... gotta say even tho fairly short brass life ... it is a huge hoot tho.

Short carbine rifles are my new fondness in lever guns.

[greenjoytj]

I woulda thought the problem was as much about reliable feed as it is about extraction? ........perticularly in the 92 where the round is entering the chamber at an angle off the lifter .....

I think your correct. As a cost savings Miroku uses the same over size chamber reamer for both rifles. With the M73 lifting the cartridge up to provide straight travel into the chamber, no angled presentation as in the M92. Miroku should have used a tighter M73 specific reamer.
Miroku should have their butts kicked for that compromise.

45 Colt cases fired in my M73 will only insert about half way into the chambers of my Ruger New Vaquero’s. I annealed my cases after I found the my first case with a split mouth.
Now the experiment continues to see now many firing I can get until I detect another mouth split among the batch of annealed cases, which will signal another annealing is required.
All my sizing dies squash the cases down to the correct size for the revolvers, so the problem of over sized chamber isn’t a big problem.

[bigted]

After discovering these oversize chambers, I did not resize my brass and keep my revolver brass seperated from the rifle brass.

Wonder how many loadings it takes when complete full length resizing the brass to drop fit in revolver chambers before splitting the sides takes place?

Seems like a good experiment with new starline brass to discover this. Maybe annealing when the first split body and continuing the experiment.

So many great ideas and so little time.

[Outpost75]

The key to getting long case life reloading .45 Colt for these modern guns with pregnant chambers is NOT to use a modern FL sizer die! Instead, only decap the fired using the Lee Universal decapper. Then lightly flare with an expander plug which is 0.002" smaller than the bullet. Try your as-cast and unsized .454-.455" bullets in the unsized case to see if they are a friction fit. If so, seat the bullet to depth only but DO NOT CRIMP. Instead use the Redding Profile Crimp Die to then FL size the loaded case, to grab the bullet and apply a well-formed roll crimp.

If your as-cast and unsized bullets fit too loosely in fired brass to stay put until rounds can be assembled and pro-file sized, then either use a .455 Webley MkII or .45 Colt STEEL size die (then yes, you must lubricate the cases!) and size the case mouth only to the depth of the bullet base. Or fill the case with 2Fg black so that compressing the powder 1/8" in seating the bullet provides adequate base support for the bullet until it is crimped.

With smokeless powder use Lee Liquid Alox or 45-45-10 and load bullets as-cast and unsized.

With black powder use SPG or 50-50 Crisco and beeswax, or 50-50 beeswax and olive oil, pan lubed.

Best results are with 8-10 BHN soft alloy.

I prefer 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, but 50-50 COWW and plumbers lead with 1% tin added is also good.

[Baltimoreed]

My .45lc brass brass lasts forever but the .45lc nickel will split. I’ll usually find a couple split cases after a 60 rd cas match. But I’ve got nickel brass thats so old it’s lost so much plating it looks like brass. I use brass .45 in my Marlins and ubertis and the nickel in my sa and da revolvers. Everything gets full length sized, I use the same rcbs sizer die for my .45 schofield and long colt brass. I use 200 gr rnfp in the revolvers and 225-250 gr in the rifles.

[Eddie Southgate]

The bulge in brass with the 45Colt chambered rifles is a must , it’s the only way to get the 45 Colt to work in a lever gun.Thats why it was never chambered in lever guns originally, it was unacceptable for the companies.
The old steel RCBS with yellow labels dies take the bulge out of brass that is bulged. My Win/Miroku 92 shoots very well with .460” bullets. The 44-40 WCF was designed to work flawless in the lever gun and does it well.


The makers never chambered rifles in .45 Colt due to the very narrow rim of the original case . The newer style case had a wider rim and deeper cut that now allows the extractors to hook on and remove the case from the chamber . Had nothing at all to do with a bulged case, they just wouldn't work thru any rifle action type with the exception of maybe a single shot . The Winchester hyphenated calibers were designed originally for rifles but the .45 Colt was not .

[bigted]

So my next question is about the 357 mag and 44 mag. Are these chambers large as well?

[Savvy Jack]

2- same querry as to the 44-40 chambers in all three models. Are they generous like the Jap-Chesters chambered in the 45 Colt?

My Marlin 1894CB is only a tab bit oversized. Cowboy loads are fine but if I shoot normal or HV loads, the fired brass is a tad over expanded at the base.

[indian joe]

I have a Uberti 66 in 44/40 --- its OLD - its one of the ones they made with the trigger block like a 73 has
chamber is fat - didnt realise how fat in the body ! We split some cases (only remington)

I have a 92 that a friend rebarrelled (chamber reamer from Brownells I think) and there is no hope of getting the Uberti once fired brass to chamber in the 92 but that same brass will do several cycles in the uberti before we have to resize it

[edp2k]

The problem is that the SAMMI chamber spec for the 45 Colt is very "generous",
and there is a lot of difference between a SAMMI MAX dimension chamber and a SAMMI min dimension cartridge.

That is one of the several reasons Elmer Keith "quit the 45 colt" and went to the 44 spl.,
in addition to the 44 having more meat in the cylinder walls compared to the 45 colt.

Follow Outpost 75's advice and find an old steel sizer and use that, supposedly (I never tried it myself) the old steel sizer's don't
size down as much as the "newer" carbide sizers.
(And nickle brass will split sooner than non-nickled brass.)

Of course then the blown out rifle brass that has been minimally sized may not chamber 100% in a tight, modern revolver chamber,
but that is the unfortunate nature of the 45 colt dimensional legacy.
Unless you want to pony up $$ and have the rifles rebarreled/rechambed with a custom min-tolerance 45 colt reamer.
Even then, since the problem is the SAMMI spec wide tolerances, any given revolver or rifle may be in spec but still overwork the brass
and cause interchangeability problems.

[rintinglen]

Or use the Cowboy Die set from RCBS. A little more money, but it doesn't work the brass so hard.