Treating handgun cartridges for rifle accuracy.

[Bazoo]

So for a single shot or bolt action rifle in bottle necked cases, many do such as weigh cases, turn necks, neck size, deburr the flash hole, and uniform the primer pocket. Each of these things helps to squeeze a pinch of accuracy out of the rifle ammo combo.

So, has anyone ever done the same to obtain some primo accuracy with a rifle chambered in pistol calibers such as 38 special, 357 magnum, 44 special/magnum or 44-40 ?

I don't have a pistol caliber rifle to test such myself.

Thanks for the interest.

Bazoo

[GhostHawk]

To be honest, my .357mag Handi rifle barrel put 3 in one hole at 50 yards while sighting in the scope.
My .444marlin Handi rifle I downloaded from the get go. Wanted no part of full house loads recoil.

So I started with 13 grains of Red Dot below the 300 gr RCBS clone with gas check.
I got cloverleafs at 25, 50, 75 yards without really trying. Should have had one at 100y but operator error pulled the third shot half an inch up and left. Leaving it just out.

Lately I have been shooting the same rifle with 220 gr and 200 gr cast over 6.5 grains of Red Dot. Essentially a mid range .44mag load, but loaded in .444m brass. It has shot just as well.

And it did it without weighing cases, bullets, and just normal attention to powder charges. Most were loaded with a powder dipper.
And they shot just as well.

Bullet fit does need to be right for the rifle. Too small is bad ju-ju.
Lube was Ben's Liquid lube applied in 2-3 light coats. Barely enough to tell that it is even there.

Ohh and the same load for the .444marlin loaded in .44mag cases gave me the same results. Stacked them up very nicely at 100y.
If I was willing to put a higher power scope on the .44mag I suspect I would have no trouble getting MOA accuracy.

But a Red Dot Sight with a 2.5 moa dot is going to be hard to do it with. Same with the 1.5x5 variable. Good for hunting, better at long range than the Red Dot, but lacks the magnification to truly drive tacks.

[bluejay75]

A question that you have to ask yourself is how much accuracy do you really need. ALL the deer I have taken in the past two seasons were with a Handi Rifle in 44 Magnum NOE 280 WFN PB behind 22 grains of H110.

Sorting the brass by headstamp is as much as I do. And really I’m only taking out two stamps. RP are always the longest. So they all get loaded together. Hornady is either short or right on...so I just take them all out and keep them segregated. I may trim them all one day and use them exclusively in pistols. So I’m not sorting for any reason other than consistent case capacity. I crimp with a modified collet crimp. When you’re at the bottom edge of the charge range it matters. If you’re shooting slow powder and you get flash every 5-6 shot you’re not getting consistent ignition.

2-2.5 at 100 yards is more than accurate enough. Funny thing is my iron sighted 44 Handi Rifle shoots the same 2.5.

[Win94ae]

On more than a few occasions I've shot a 1.5-1.75" 3 shot group at 100 yards with my S&W 686 357 magnum 8 3/8" barrel.
I did nothing special at all, sorting cases by head-stamp is as radical as it gets.
I usually shoot a 3 inch group at 100, so I think I just can't shoot the gun as well as it actually shoots.

Develop a load the conventional way at 25 yards, then shoot the gun the best you can. You just might impress yourself.

[DougGuy]

The chambers and throats MUST be consistent, forcing cone is recut and semi polished, hammer pad reduced, and a Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring is swapped into the Rugers. After that I weigh every charge, use a modded collet crimp die and I am right where I want the revolver to be, it shoots better than I can shoot it. This is for all of my revolver loads for each gun.

This is a very easily attained level of accuracy, very affordable, nothing excessive, best bang for the buck with what I have listed here. Every improvement in accuracy beyond what I have done gets real expensive for only a little bit more gain.

I suppose a carbine in pistol calibers would turn in better groups with the same ammo I use for revolvers, it's really just reducing the variables that improves groups anyway regardless of gun.

[Bazoo]

I appreciate the responses. I once had a handi rifle in 357 magnum and sold it for something more useful. Now I'm wishing I hadn't because I could have accomplished some experimenting.

Win94ae, that is some excellent shooting with a handgun, thanks for sharing. What stance do use to get 3" at 100?

I'm just curious as to why you rarely of hear anyone getting accuracy like what Ghosthawk describes and never better. Not that I'm an accuracy nut. I understand the attention payed to details in high power cartridges and how accurate they can be, but you never hear of someone doing the same to a handgun caliber rifle. It's normally, I threw my cartridges together and got cloverleafs. Is it that few if any try to get the accuracy out of such a weapon? And the ones that do just aren't sharing it with the world? Perhaps hey are just viewed as hunting accuracy only weapons.

My query is in essence, can you wring the same accuracy from a pistol caliber rifle as you can from a bottlenecked high power cartridge, provided you treat both with the same attention to detail?

[Winger Ed.]

My query is in essence, can you wring the same accuracy from a pistol caliber rifle as you can from a bottlenecked high power cartridge, provided you treat both with the same attention to detail?

Of course the same principals apply to any cartridge.
Most people don't go all out on handgun calibers since the usual ranges are so much shorter where they are fired,
and that last little bit of accuracy doesn't really amount to much until you get to farther and farther distances.

For example- A 3" group at 100 yards may be a one hole 'clover leaf' group at 25.

[Bazoo]

Don't people try for cloverleafs at 100 yards or 200 yards with a handgun caliber rifle?

[M-Tecs]

Never tested the differences in a pistol caliber chamber in a rifle.

In what would be considered extreme accuracy rifles and calibers I find very little time/effort rewards for under 300 yards (unless shooting benchrest). For 300 yards plus I find the increased accuracy justifies the increase effort. Percentage wise is can be huge. Like 50% to 100% increase in accuracy. Reality not so much. 1/4 MOA verse 3/8 MOA or 1/2 MOA. For benchrest, 600 yard through 1,000 yard Highpower, Palma or F-Class this increase is beneficial if you can hold and read wind well enough to tell the difference.

Most of my pistol caliber lever guns don't shoot well enough to statistically tell the difference if I shave 1/4 MOA of the group and other than personal satisfaction none of the type shooting with them will benefit from a 1/4 MOA accuracy increase.

Handgun Silhouette may benefit from the extra attention to maximize accuracy. Short of that spending more time shooting verse loading will be of greater benefit.

[Bazoo]

Thanks Mtecs that makes sense to me.

[Win94ae]

What stance do use to get 3" at 100?

I don't shoot groups unless I'm load developing, and I shoot off a sandbag when doing so.

I'd like to add. My 686 shot better than my Marlin 94... until I fixed it, now they shoot about the same.

[uscra112]

Sort by headstamp hoping for consistent temper and hence consistent crimp. Trim to consistent length, same reason. In single shots, seat cast bullet out so it engages rifling. Casting good bullets, of course. Best of all, though, was buying a custom reamer from Dave Manson that cuts a .357 chamber with a proper throat.

[Norske]

At bear blind distances, I usually shoot my SBH more accurately than most loads in my Marlin 1894. But I've had the rifle for three years and the SBH since 1983.

[35remington]

Honestly, the chambers these guns are saddled with is a big limitation along with the problems inherent to dumpy bullets and velocities that may drop through the transonic range at distance.

By “saddled with” I mean the leades and throats are less than ideal and the chambers rather sloppy.

[charlie b]

After shooting .357 Mag in a Contender I can say that it was not that difficult to get 1" groups at 100yd. About the same difficulty as shooting the .223 barrel on the same frame.

As stated above, when trying to get better groups than that you have to first look at the rifle and barrel. If either is not capable of better, then making better ammo won't do much for you. Same for your shooting ability.

Just because you find a bolt gun or single shot in a pistol caliber does not mean it will be capable of great accuracy.

This just isn't any different than shooting rifle cartridges in rifles. My limited experience is that getting to 1MOA is not that difficult in most cases. When you are trying to reach 1/2MOA and less consistently, then everything is much more critical, especially the shooter.

FWIW, my little .223 is pretty consistent at 1/2MOA. I have never weighed the brass, messed with the flash holes or pockets, never annealed or neck sized, and have not trimmed them (Lapua brass up to 10 reloads per case). Winchester cases had the same 'lack' of treatment and shot just as well, but, they only lasted for 4 reloads before the primer pockets opened up. I do weigh each powder charge to 0.1gn, use match primers and I use premium bullets, 77gn Sierra Match King (not many do as well). I use Lee dies, not the bench rest stuff. The biggest difference to get from .75MOA to .5MOA was ME. I had to up my game a bit to get consistently better groups.

If I was a bit more careful I might be able to get consistently into the 2's and 3's, but, I am comfortable with where I am at.

[MT Gianni]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/10/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-read-this-classic-article/
I consider this article a real eye opener when looking at accuracy issues. I can neither see nor shoot well enough for extreme brass prep to make a big enough difference. I don't consider my lever rifles in pistol calibers bench rest tools.

[PAndy]

Lever action rifles are not easy (for me) to shoot from the bench. They are often known for groups with 4 shots together and one out. Plenty of speculation about that. Some of them shoot pretty well, but perhaps not good enough to benefit from a lot of extra brass prep. I have a .357 Henry that has shot a number of 1 moa 5-shot groups at 100 yards, but most groups are closer to 2". I'm happy with that, and had to try a lot of loads to find it. I think a single shot rifle and/or contender pistol could be a different story.

[onelight]

If it's your interest to chase tiny groups with your guns go for it and see what you can do , when you find things that work let us know I would be interested .
When you look around on the forum you will see a lot of projects that in reality don't have much practical purpose but the people pursuing them get a great deal of entertainment from them and sometimes things are learned we all can benefit from. Most of what the shooters here do is for fun. From the 12 gauge from hell to the 25 auto in Ruger revolvers and semi autos all great stuff that take a person with a passion outside the norm to pursue . Have fun :2gunsfiring_v1:

[charlie b]

Lever action rifles are not easy (for me) to shoot from the bench. They are often known for groups with 4 shots together and one out. Plenty of speculation about that. Some of them shoot pretty well, but perhaps not good enough to benefit from a lot of extra brass prep. I have a .357 Henry that has shot a number of 1 moa 5-shot groups at 100 yards, but most groups are closer to 2". I'm happy with that, and had to try a lot of loads to find it. I think a single shot rifle and/or contender pistol could be a different story.

One trick you might try for bench resting lever actions. Use your off hand to hold the fore end and then rest your hand on the bench rest bag. Made a big difference when I was shooting model 94's and my muzzle loaders.

[samari46]

Most of my calibers like 30-30,308/7.62nato and 30-06 and even 45/70 all get trimmed, primer pockets uniformed,flash holes uniformed and sung to under a full moon. Back in the late 90's I had the good fortune to speak to a few national level benchrest shooters about what they do to their cases. Uniformity and consistency those were the two words used when they prepped all their cases. That also extended to measuring their bullets at a set point below the bullets nose. Seating depth the same way. Primers they were picky about them as well. But after all that the majority didn't weigh their powder charge's on a scale. They used a powder measure. Temps would go up,so they reduced their charges by a couple clicks and the reverse held true if the temps went up. And they loaded their cartridges to the limit and sometimes over that. No neck sizing cases until the necks had been turned. Use of bushing dies for neck sizing for proper neck tension. Frank

[Outpost75]

Lever actions also tend to string as the magazine tube empties, because the nodal points on the barrel move. If shooting groups hold the rifle normally as you would when hunting, but use the front bag to support the non-firing hand, holding the rifle in a normal grasp, but using the front bag to steady it. Load the rifle as a two-shooter, chambering one round and loading only one round past the loading gate. DO NOT fill the tube. Each time you fire the chambered round, then insert one round past the loading gate into the tube. This way all rounds are magazine fed as they would be in the field, but balance, method of support and vibrational nodes on the barrel are consistent. Here is my 1942 Winchester fired at 200 yards with factory ammo. Combat accurate.

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