38 SPL +P+ or 38/44 Loads with 170 gr Cast Bullets & 2400

[Larry Gibson]

Please note; I am not recommending or saying anyone should shoot any of these loads in any revolver/firearm other than a 357 Magnum chambered revolver/firearm. I certainly do not recommend them for use in any 38 SPL chambered revolver other than the S&W 38/44 “Outdoorsman”, the Colt New Service and the Ruger Security Six chambered in 38 SPL. Even then I would only recommend loads within 38 SPL +P pressures. The data presented here is for information only.

38 SPL +P+ or 38/44 Loads with 170 gr Cast Bullets & 2400


Often on the forum someone asks about loading 160 – 180 gr cast bullets over 2400 powder in the 38 SPL for use in S&W 38/40 N frames along with 357 chambered handgun/rifles. The questions usually center around start and max loads.

Rem-UMC produced a 38/44 cartridge for use in the S&W 38/44 Outdoorsman revolver, the precursor to the 357 magnum revolver. The velocity was listed with 150 and 158 gr j and lead bullets in the 1120 - almost 1200 fps (just going from memory there. Colt is said to have said the 38/44 loads were fine to use in the Colt New Service revolver.
Over the years I've seen the 358156 seated to second crimp groove over 12.0 gr 2400 as "the" load for use in the S&W 38/44 revolvers. That load was also oft recommended for use in M19s and other 357 magnum revolvers "back in the day" when 38 SPL cases were plentiful and easy to obtain and 357 magnum cases were hard to find and expensive.
The 358136/12 gr 2400 was and still is an excellent load in 357 Revolvers. Years back i shot a lot of that load in my Colt Trooper, S&W M28 and Ruger BHs. Back then, as a low paid LEO, I had lots of 38 SPL cases but little 357 Magnum cases. These days I have a sufficient quantity of 357 magnum brass to use.
I have a bit of pressure test data on the Lyman 358156 seated out to the 2nd crimp groove loaded over 2400 in 38 SPL cases for use in 3844 or 357 handguns as that is what that bullet was designed for. The 358156 has become my favorite bullet of choice in the 357 Magnum for use with top end magnum loads. Also, if I was loading +P+ 38 SPLs for use in 357 magnums that is the bullet I would use.

Some seem to want to use the heavier bullets though so I’ve pressure tested two different bullets [36-168K & 36-175H supplied by Ed Harris (Outpost75)]. Many like the 358429 or similar bullets loaded to the crimp groove in 38 SPL cases because of fit in certain Magnum cylinders and feeds in some lever guns. Many also like the longer "Keith" design SWC for longer range shooting among other reasons. I am not averse to anyone using this bullet. The above test was done because many have asked me if I have Pressure tested the 358429 or similar bullet in 38 SPL cases with 2400 powder. The above test results are in answer to those queries.

Unfortunately, I no longer had a 170 gr Lyman “Keith” 358421 mould when I started pressure testing. I never developed an affinity for that bullet in the 357 or 38 SPL so long ago when I traded off an OM Ruger BH I let the mould go with it. I regret letting the Ruger go but not the 358421 mould. With the receipt of the 36-168K (169 gr) & 36-175H (184 gr) bullets I loaded them in 10 shot test strings of 8 – 12 gr in 1 gr increments. I used W-W 38 SPL cases and WSP primers. Alliant 2400 was used. All charges were thrown using a Lyman 55 powder thrower. The bullets were crimped in the crimp groove with moderate crimp.

Testing was done last Monday, May 22, at the local range here. Temperature was 90 degrees with 7% humidity. Testing was done in the shade so the ambient temperature is also the temperature of the ammunition.

The test firearm was a Contender with a 7.94” barrel. The pressure data and velocity was obtained via a strain gauge attached over the chamber connected to the Oehler M43 PBL. The M43 corrects the screen velocity to muzzle velocity and I posted muzzle velocity. Chronographing the similar loads in a 6” barreled Ruger Security Six results in 150 – 200 fps less velocity out of the revolver.

Test results are the averages of the 10 shots with each test string;

36-168K (169 gr)
Load……Vel……..PSI

8.0……..923……20,100
9.0…….1065…..22,800
10.0…..1151…..24,600
11.0…..1291…..27,000
12.0…..1392…..28,900

36-175H (184 gr)
Load……Vel……..PSI

8.0……..948……22,500
9.0…….1094…..24,400
10.0.....1185…..25,500
11.0…..1298…...28,100
12.0…..1396……29,700

[Outpost75]

Thanks Larry!

When the 38-44 loads were introduced in the 1930s, there was no industry standard pressure for the higher velocity loads. The +P designation was not standardized until 1974. The S&W Heavy Duty, Colt New Service and Official Police revolvers of that era were deemed OK for use with the higher velocity loads.

264062264063

I expect that the catalog velocities for those loads were based upon the 6-inch solid industrial test barrel in use at the time. Chronographed velocities of vintage service ammo from my 4-inch S&W .38-44 Heavy Duty and 5-inch Colt New Service shown in the accompanying table below are substantially less than the catalog figures:

.357 Factory Loads Reference:______S&W Model 28 4” ”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

.357 Mag. Super-X 158-gr.Lubaloy_____1236, 8 Sd ______________1307 fps, 36 Sd___1950s

.357 Mag. Rem-UMC 158-gr. SWC_____1221 fps, 23 Sd__________1287 fps, 27 Sd___1950s

.38 Special Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating__939 fps, 9 Sd____________1009 fps, 13 Sd_____1950s

Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44_____994 fps, 23 Sd___________1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s

Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P____909 fps, 16 Sd____________936 fps, 16 Sd____1990s

“.38-44” Handloads Assembled in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

_________________________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”_______Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd

Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd_____________902 fps, 14 Sd

Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd____________947 fps, 11 Sd

Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd____________981 fps, 18 Sd

Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd_____________926 fps, 37 Sd

[curioushooter]

Interesting data and corroborates the velocities I am getting with similar loads. But why not take it to Keith's 13.5 grains of 2400 with the 358429 (~168 grains) or the 358429 HP (~158 grains)? The Lyman Cast Bullet manual #4 lists this combination in a 357 Mag case but it is crimped over the first driving band so it has a similar OAL to a 38 special case crimped in the crimp groove (I am assuming this is done to accommodate short cylinder N-frames). Furthermore, magnum primers are used in the Lyman manual.

[Larry Gibson]

"But why not take it to Keith's 13.5 grains of 2400 with the 358429"

First, because I only had enough of the bullets graciously provided by Outpost75 to complete the test from the 8 gr start he requested up through 12 gr of 2400. The 12 gr load with both bullets was at 100% load density. Secondly because, as stated, I didn't have any 359429s........

Send me a couple hundred 358429s and I'll conduct that test.......

As to the primers used; I was not duplicating or comparing my results to that in any manual. I used the WSP primer because that is what Outpost75 requested. Since he sent the bullets I honored his request. BTW; did not ole Elmer always say magnum primers weren't needed or even "best" to use with his revolver loads using 2400? Anyways, send the bullets and i can use CCI550s as I have those also.

Note; proper pressure testing is a little more involved than just loading up a couple rounds and running across a chrony......

[Walks]

Great info, Thank You

The #358429 was our go to bullet for jackrabbit hunting when I was a kid. Over a stout charge of Unique it was used in Colt OP & NS, S&W N-Frames & Ruger OM's.

Still use it today in a lighter load in my Colt OP.

[Hi-Speed]

I’m a little late coming back on-line. Hope everyone is doing well. Here are some 38 Special +P and 38-44 chronograph data from Nov. 2019:

Firearm used - Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8” 357 Magnum

Load 1 - 38 Special +P - 158 gr cast SWC - 5.6 grs Power Pistol: Avg 949 FPS (High 960 FPS, Low 935 FPS, ES 25, SD 10)

Load 2 - 38-44 - 170 gr Lyman 358429 - 6.0 grs Power Pistol: Avg 972 FPS (High 993 FPS, Low 949 FPS, ES 44, SD 16) (very accurate)

Load 3 - 38-44 - 158 gr Lyman 358311 - 6.0 grs Unique: Avg 1,033 FPS (High 1,038 FPS, Low 1,026 FPS, ES 12, SD 7) (very accurate) (only three rounds tested)

Load 4 - 38-44 - 158 gr cast SWC - 11.0 grs 2400: Avg 1,053 FPS (High 1,123 FPS, Low 991 FPS, ES 129, SD 49)

Load 5 - 38-44 - 161 gr Lyman 358156 GC - 6.0 grs Unique: Avg 1,023 FPS (High 1,072 FPS, Low 983 FPS, ES 90, SD 33) (extremely accurate)

Note: This 38-44 data is for my 357 Magnum Ruger Blackhawk only. Loads were based on 38-44 data from Handloader Oct 2016, but for use only in heavy frame 38-44s or 357 Magnum heavy frame revolvers

[ddixie884]

Thank you all for your input and data. There are those who will say you are not being careful but with this data a person can make his own decision on going forward with loading high speed loads. JMHO-YMMV........

[dverna]

It is great information for those who are careful enough to use it.

I plan to load to somewhere between .38+P and .357 pressures using .38 cases. All my guns are rated for .357 pressures and I have thousands of .38 cases. Only 300 .357 cases.

[ddixie884]

I don't use them for all my shooting in my M-15 S&W but I shoot a good bit of 160gr swcbb machine cast bullets on 11gr 2400, 6gr VV N340 or 6gr PP. I also posted in this section of the forum that I have recently tried first 10 then 10.5 and 11gr of N110 with this bullet. I fired them in the S&W and a LCRX and though strong they weren't brutal. The empty brass ejected with the slightest touch of a thumb and fell free of the chambers. I regard these as real .38-44 type loads that won't damage a quality .38spl but will probably cause more wear and tear.......

Larry, you are da man........

[fcvan]

Very interesting read, thanks to everyone for sharing. I have a M13 that rarely sees 357 loads, and don't push the 38 loads. Still, learning from everyone has been enjoyable.

[RJM52]

"Larry, you are da man........ "...U got that right Dixie...

A few years ago I found a very resonably priced 4" 1952 vintage Heavy Duty...what a nice gun.

Have not yet built up what I consider a "real" .38-44 but using the MP 358156 clone in both GC and PB with 6.0 grains of Unique. Shot the load in the HD, Pre-27 6", 67 and 649 and all the primers are round and cases fall right out even though it is a little more than a "book" load...

Funny but I stared off with the Lyman 358156 back in 1970 and here I am back to it again...

Bob

[Hi-Speed]

"Larry, you are da man........ "...U got that right Dixie...

A few years ago I found a very resonably priced 4" 1952 vintage Heavy Duty...what a nice gun.

Have not yet built up what I consider a "real" .38-44 but using the MP 358156 clone in both GC and PB with 6.0 grains of Unique. Shot the load in the HD, Pre-27 6", 67 and 649 and all the primers are round and cases fall right out even though it is a little more than a "book" load...

Funny but I stared off with the Lyman 358156 back in 1970 and here I am back to it again...

Bob

Your 6.0 grs Unique and the 358156 SWC is a true 38-44 load...it equals velocity of later (1960s) 38-44 factory loads (ie Remington 38 Special “Hi-Speed”). It is one of my favorite range loads for my Blackhawk and a darn good load when hiking the high desert here. It will do near 1,100 FPS in 6 inch tubes which duplicates factory 38-44 loads +/-.

[RJM52]

In looking at the loads listed over on LoadData.com they have the same bullet running 1200+ from 6" barrels with 2400 and AAC-9...

Loads were listed in the Handloader Issue #243 - October, 2006

1100 from a 6" gun is only about 950 from a 4". That is only a .38 Special +P load...

Bob

[Hi-Speed]

...more like 1,000 FPS in 4 inch per my chronograph...which is a later 38-44 factory load. Win/Fed 38 Spl +P 158 gr SWCHP barely gets 970 FPS in my 6 inch. Regardless, enjoy your 6.0 grs Unique load...it’s a great one for heavy frames.

[ddixie884]

Larry have you ever done any pressure testing with Herco in the .38spl?

[LAH]

Enjoyed the read.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry have you ever done any pressure testing with Herco in the .38spl?

Not yet.

[Don Purcell]

Think this week I may break out my "Transition" 38/44 Outdoorsman and load up the Lyman/Keith 160 grain hollowpoint cast 1-16 over 6 grs. Unique and 11 grs. 2400 and see what happens. I've had this one for 41 years and it has been mostly shot with Elmer's 13.5 grs. of 2400 with this bullet.

[No_1]

Great thread!

[RJM52]

Got to chrono the 6.0 grains of Unique/358156 load today..
Pre-27 6": 1121 fps
1952 Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
60-10 3": 1044 fps
649 2": 996 fps

[Hi-Speed]

Got to chrono the 6.0 grains of Unique/358156 load today..
Pre-27 6": 1121 fps
1952 Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
60-10 3": 1044 fps
649 2": 996 fps

Thank you for sharing. That’s some fine velocity from your 38-44 HD. That 6.0 grs and 358156GC is a good duplicate of the late 38-44 factory loadings, very accurate with enough power for me.

[Don Purcell]

Finally chronographed loads in my 38/44 Outdoorsman with 11.5 grains of Alliant 2400 and Lyman's 160 grain RFN at 1150 F.P.S.. Think that will be good enough in the ball park for the old girl.

[RJM52]

I think I am going to make the 6.0/UNIQUE my standard load. I may experiment some with AAC-9 but for what I use a .38 Special for the 1100 fps will due nicely...

[Walks]

That 6.0gr/Unique gives a complete burn in a 4" bbl.

[cowboy4evr]

I have tried Elmers load of 13.5 grs of 2400 using his swc (173 gr) loaded in 38 special cases . I found I had better accuracy using 12.0 grs , same powder . Maybe if I would of kept shooting the Keith load I might of improved . These were shot out of a model 28 HP , 6" barrel .

[50target]

Think this week I may break out my "Transition" 38/44 Outdoorsman and load up the Lyman/Keith 160 grain hollowpoint cast 1-16 over 6 grs. Unique and 11 grs. 2400 and see what happens. I've had this one for 41 years and it has been mostly shot with Elmer's 13.5 grs. of 2400 with this bullet.

I did just that last Friday with my transition OD, but with 5.5 gr. Herco & a Zero 158 JSP.
Shot a steel man silhouette at 140 yds. Wife spotting for me thought I was nuts. Got boring after a while and then took head shots and made 3 out of 10 RDS. Used J word to smooth out bore. No issues afterward. Hard not to love those old Smiths.

Bob

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Love seeing the 38 be all it can be!

Larry, did you ever get a chance to test 200gr 357 loads?

[Larry Gibson]

Love seeing the 38 be all it can be!

Larry, did you ever get a chance to test 200gr 357 loads?

Not yet.

[farmbif]

question/ ive never seen or even heard of a 38-44, must be very hard to come by, how does it differ from 357-44 Bain Davis? 1/8" shorter shell?

[nicholst55]

question/ ive never seen or even heard of a 38-44, must be very hard to come by, how does it differ from 357-44 Bain Davis? 1/8" shorter shell?

The 38-44 S&W revolvers were simply a .38 Special built on an N-frame (hence the .44 part). They were intended to be fired with heavy loads, primarily for use by LEOs. This was done in the days before the .357 Mag cartridge was developed.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/884953217

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/880870839

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/883581866

[farmbif]

thanks for clearing this up for me

[RJM52]

Got to chrono the 6.0 grains of Unique/358156 load today..
Pre-27 6": 1121 fps
1952 Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
60-10 3": 1044 fps
649 2": 996 fps

Just looking at these velocities again...any thoughts on the 7 fps difference between the 4" HD which is chambered for .38 Special and the 6.5" Model 27 that is chambered for .357...maybe the cylinder gap...

[rintinglen]

There are a number of possibilities. First, there will be differences even in guns made on the same day, much less than years apart. A tighter barrel, a rougher bore, larger cylinder throats, larger or smaller barrel-cylinder gaps, ambient temperature, even a weaker hammer spring can all have an impact on muzzle velocity. The longer 357 chambers will generally rob some velocity, compared to the same load fired in a 38 special chamber.

Secondly, most chronographs are only accurate to about .05% and it can, depending on type, vary according to daylight intensity. .05 x 1121 is 56 fps, if even a couple of shots in a string fall on the low or high side, it can skew the results. Finally, simple sampling variances can account for the seeming closeness. Assume that the chronograph is dead nuts on, reading exactly right. Say each gun in shooting this load has a standard deviation of 19, which is actually pretty good for a revolver. If the five (or 10) shots in each sample happened to come from the bottom of normal range of the six inch, while those of the HD 38-44 came from the top end of its normal range, they might easily get this close, or even overlap.

One can normally expect about 25 fps per inch of difference of barrel length in magnum revolvers. However, every gun is its own master. Sometime, read chapter 18 in Speer Number 14. It is reprint from Number 9, entitled "Why ballisticians get gray.." Amongst other guns, they test fired 9 different Six Inch 357 revolvers and found an extreme spread of 282 fps between the slowest and fastest averages. The extreme spread of the test ammo was less than 40 in their test barrel. So even with the chambers supposedly the same, and the barrel lengths nominally identical, the difference between guns was over 7 times what the expected extreme variance for that ammo was.

The author details over a dozen factors that could affect the reported velocity. Anyway, it is not a shock that these two revolvers measure similar velocities. Nor would it be a great surprise if they measured even greater disparity between one revolver and the other. That is just the sort of statistical variance to be expected.

[ddixie884]

I have noticed that I get consistently higher velocities from a .38spl chamber than from a .357 Magnum chamber with .38spl brass. Not in any way predictable but generally over several different guns a small advantage to properly chambered .38spl over longer Magnum chambers.....

[Rodfac]

Thanks Larry...a great post with some surprises in it. I've used 13.5 gr of 2400/Lyman 358156GC in Magnum brass for many years in a variety of .357's...it's my favorite in my Marlin 1893CS and gives no outward signs of excessive pressure. Based on your results, and the better accuracy you've found at 12.5 gr. that'll be my next trial load.

And the 6.0 gr load with Unique is one that's escaped my use...sounds about right for my use velocity/recoil wise.

Again, thanks for the outstanding work. Rod

[Hi-Speed]

I have noticed that I get consistently higher velocities from a .38spl chamber than from a .357 Magnum chamber with .38spl brass. Not in any way predictable but generally over several different guns a small advantage to properly chambered .38spl over longer Magnum chambers.....

Yes, that is my experience as well

[Larry Gibson]

Just looking at these velocities again...any thoughts on the 7 fps difference between the 4" HD which is chambered for .38 Special and the 6.5" Model 27 that is chambered for .357...maybe the cylinder gap...

Both the barrell/cylinder gap and the different chambers.

[Char-Gar]

Great informative thread. Kudos to Larry and Ed. I am reminded, again, that published velocity from years gone by do not represent the velocity in real firearms. Before they went to autopistols, the RCMP used 5" Smith Model 10s and a load that produced 1,000 fps in their K frames. What do you want to bet their armorers had plenty of work keeping those Smiths up and running.

[ddixie884]

That is probably right.........

[Capt.Red.44]

Loving the info guys! Keep it coming. Im gonna start casting that 156 once i find some gas checks gor it or get the gas check ring milled out. Been collecting dust in my mold cabinet.

[Daekar]

Larry,
Thank you so much for conducting and posting this testing, there really is no replacement for meticulously collected data.

[StrawHat]

I used to load the 358156 and 2400 in 38 Special cases for my Magnum revolvers. Then, I sold them. A couple years ago a 38/44 HD came to me. What a hoot shooting those loads the way they were intended to be used.

Kevin

[StrawHat]

…Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd

Outpost,

What alloy for that dewc?

Thanks

Kevin

[Outpost75]

Outpost,

What alloy for that dewc?

Thanks

Kevin

1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, drops 148 grains at .361" diameter.

[Golfswithwolves]

Think this week I may break out my "Transition" 38/44 Outdoorsman and load up the Lyman/Keith 160 grain hollowpoint cast 1-16 over 6 grs. Unique and 11 grs. 2400 and see what happens. I've had this one for 41 years and it has been mostly shot with Elmer's 13.5 grs. of 2400 with this bullet.

For what it's worth, I believe that I have found a fine load using this bullet and powder combination. I have been trying to come up with a load equivalent to the old .38/44 factory one which is quoted in sources as being about 1100 fps, although my efforts using Unique powder have given less velocity than this and using 2400 powder have been higher velocity (even at recommended starting loads). My revolver is a 5" HD, my bullet 1:16 alloy, my mold a Lyman 358439 HP, sized to .357". The most consistent load for me has been 6.0 grains of Unique which has shown about 1010 fps and the lowest standard velocity variation. It also shoots very accurately. Lower and higher amounts of this powder had higher SD and worse accuracy in my shooting, and sizing to .358 also worse. So for me in my revolver I will be using the 6.0 of Unique load even though the velocity is not up to the published factory .38/44 velocity. I think it will be close enough. Obviously don't use this loading in any revolver except the no-longer-made S&W Heavy Duty or Outdoorsman or similarly extra-strong revolvers.