1879 Remington Argentine RB

[Charlie in Co]

I found an Argentine Rolling Block at a gunshow today and it came home with me. The rifle is in very good to excellent condition, the bore is mirror bright. It appears to be one of the lot that Remington released to civilian sales after the Argentines switched to the 91 Mauser since it doesn't have a crest nor does it say Modelo Argentino on the bottom metal. I'm assuming it is chambered in 43 Spanish and not "reformado" or 43 Mauser, or Egyptian. So what dies should I get for it? The RCBS seem pricey compared to the Lee. Some Lee stuff is OK but not generally impressed with their longevity. How about boolits? Paper patched or straight? Which molds work well? Any help or comments appreciated.

PS. the ladder sight on this rifle is gorgeous!

[Don McDowell]

The best place to start would be with a good chamber cast. From that you could measure the chamber to determine just what cartridge, and also measure the bore and groove to get a good idea where to start with bullets.

CH4D dies are better quality than Lee, and generally less money than the RCBS.

Brass for alot of these old obscure cartridges can be formed from cases more readily available, but until you know just what the thing is chambered in you don't want to buy much of anything except a plug of cerrosafe.

[Charlie in Co]

That was my plan, to order some Cerrosafe and make sure of caliber

[Buckshot]

................Charlie in Co, welcome to the board. If the rifle is an 1879 Argentine it will be in 43 Spanish Remington, a BN 44-77 lookalike. However doing a chamber cast of at least the front half of the chamber (and get a bit of the throat and lead) is the way to go. It will confirm the chambering and will also let you know what you can get away with so far as boolit diameter is concerned.

All my brass is Bertram, and my dies are Lee's. Both do an excellent job.

http://www.fototime.com/CFE4FB6484BDAE6/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/4B9EBE131ADC269/standard.jpg

The rifle has a longish throat. The inverted boolit in the case just abuts the leade, and the leade is rather abrupt. Right photo: This is a sized down 45 cal rifle boolt that was driven in to give a picture of the leade. The top angled pink line duplicates the angle of the beginning of the lands. The lower parallel pink lines gives the length of the leade.

http://www.fototime.com/23E5560C8BB6BF7/standard.jpg

Six targets with the M1879, using 2 powders and 2 different boolits. Shot at 50 yards.

http://www.fototime.com/14622A982A0BAF6/standard.jpg

I had Dan at Mountain Moulds make this up for the RB for use with BP. It will reach through the throat, and carry a bunch of lube :-) This was made 3-4 years back, and my one try of BP to date was a couple years back also. No sense just rushing right in :-). It's no problem to get well over 80.0grs of 2Fg in the Bertram case. I only loaded 20 rounds, and IIRC it was 83.0grs of Goex 2Fg. The results weren't just earth shattering. It wasn't wild, and all the slugs went through the target pointy end forward. So there WERE a couple positives!

One of these days I'll have to take another stab at it.

.................Buckshot

[missionary5155]

Good morning Charlie and Welcome.
I have a 43 Spanish RB rifle .. do not know for sure which country... But the chamber slugs .442. I have that silly Lyman .439 that never worked. Opened it up some but it never was good enough. Bought a Rapine .443 mold (about 400 grains) and the RB shoots OK enough to pop bowling pins at 100 yards... That case holds Lots of 2F... I tried to Crony it and learned to NOT set the Crony on a camera tripod at 10 feet for that rifle.I did not set it back up.

[405]

Those are fun rifles! Congrats

As other have posted just make sure of the cartridge first (likely the regular 43 Spanish bottleneck). I've had no problems with the Bertram brass or Lee dies.

Amen on regular .438-9 molds.... usually way undersized :(. Chances are the groove diameter is closer to .440-1. Slugging those can be problematic if they have the odd number of lands/grooves. Mountain Molds is a good way to go once you get all the specs worked out. Best bullet weight should be around 375.

Sights. If it's the long rifle with orginal sights.... chances are the sight registration is long range battlefield. The one I have shot 12" high at 50 yards at lowest rear sight setting. Also may not have windage capability. I had a screw down base with dovetail built in sitting in my junk drawer :). The base fit the screw pattern on the barrel and the contour was good. Then I just added a dovetail peep to the base.... that lowered the rear sight enough so now I can shoot POA from 50-300 yards. The peep is adjustable for elevation and windage.

Very nice shooting rifle now! Good luck

[Charlie in Co]

So I had some .457 swaged lead balls from my BP revolver and I slugged the bore. Here's what I found. Slugging from the muzzle

1) The barrel has a taper towards the muzzle. The slug engaged tightly at the muzzle and dropped clear through after about 8in into the barrel.

2) The barrel has an odd number of lands and grooves (5)

I found this reference on measuring odd lands and grooves

"In the case of a barrel with an odd number of grooves this is measured by driving a soft lead slug into the barrel and then measuring the slug's diameter over a land-to-groove cross section and then subtracting the bore diameter. The next step is to double this figure and add it to the bore diameter to get the groove diameter."

Using this guide the bore measures .444 at the muzzle.

I have ordered some Cerrosafe to make a cast of the chamber and throat, but already I can tell that the throat end is larger. What do you size the bullets to, throat or muzzle ?

[Don McDowell]

Throat. If you go for the muzzle you'll end up with a smooth bore due to the lead.

[405]

"In the case of a barrel with an odd number of grooves this is measured by driving a soft lead slug into the barrel and then measuring the slug's diameter over a land-to-groove cross section and then subtracting the bore diameter. The next step is to double this figure and add it to the bore diameter to get the groove diameter."

uhhh???
Lost me with that technique for getting the bore dimensions on odd land/groove bores. That .444 groove might be right but sounds large.

Two things you might try.
1)Lube slug and bore well and drive the slug thru from the breech to the muzzle.

2)Cut a short strip about 1" X 3" of thin but stiff sheet metal like thin shim stock or pop can. Measure the thickness of the metal. Gently make a loop around the slug and measure the OD. Subract 2X thickness of the metal. That should equal the groove diameter of the bore.

[Charlie in Co]

took me awhile too, but basically you're measuring the height of the lands, and then adding them to come up with groove diameter. Don't like the method either, will try the can method tomorrow.

[Buckshot]

..............Yup, that .444" sounds on the largish side.

Take your calipers and measure the barrel OD as close to the muzzle as humanly possible. Write it down. Now stick one leg 'just' into the muzzle atop a land and the other on the outside of the barrel. Double that figure and substract it from the barrel OD measurement. This will be the bore diameter. Do the same in a groove to get the groove diameter. This should get you to within a thousandth or so.

So far as a slug dropping on through the barrel to the breech after traveling 8" from the muzzle seems odd. It could be that the barrel is choked but I've never ever heard anyone mention this before, nor in any liturature about this contract, or any other RB for that matter. Fairly common is the comment that the 1879's carried the best sight ever put on a BP military RB however.

What can be a major aggravation with these rifles is that the throat OD is the same as the groove OD. With a good hard boolit and a cardwad, using a moderate load you can see some decent accuracy using smokless. However, since the chamber, throat and bore form were predicated on the use of BP, many of this era's rifles did have groove diameter throats.

................Buckshot

[Charlie in Co]

I'll try that tomorrow and report back. I have read that some Pedersoli's RB and old British falling blocks were rifled that way. I looked into the bore on this rifle and it is mirror bright, so I don't understand it either. Tommorow I'll give it a real good cleaning with the Foul Out and try slugging again, there is some copper wash towards the muzzle, don't understand that either

[JSnover]

Do you know if the copper was there before you bought it? I thought I had a problem with copper fouling in one of my rifles; Solvent patches would come out green no matter how I scrubbed. The problem turned out to be the brush, leaving a film in the bore.

[Charlie in Co]

This is what I measured:

Barrel OD at muzzle = .714
Barrel OD to groove = .137
Barrel OD to land = .143

Land height = .143 - .137 = .006

Bore Diameter = .714 - 2(.143) = .428

Groove diameter = .714 - 2(.137) = .440

Sounds a lot better than my previous measurement

[405]

Sure sounds better! Yes, Buckshot's method works but great care has to be taken in the measurements.... a machinist's touch with the tubing micrometer helps :mrgreen:

The cerrosafe will tell a story about the chamber and for sure the throat.

[Charlie in Co]

Any hints on how to do the chamber cast on a roller? Don't want to get cerrosafe into the rotary extractor.

[Don McDowell]

Just close the block then reopen gently until you feel it engage the extractor,stop there and make your pour.
Or just pop the breech block out and pull the extractor.

[Buckshot]

...............Charlie, you don't need to fill the chamber all the way to the rim :-). Just get a casting of a half inch of the barrel, throat and the front half of the chamber. This will give you bore and groove of the barrel at the breech, the throat OD and the chamber neck OD. Plus if it's the BN Spanish-Remington, which I'm sure it is, or the (unlikely) tapered earlier Reformando.

.................Buckshot

[Charlie in Co]

So this is what the chamber cast measurements are

Looks like a .43 Spanish except the neck measures .464 instead of .455 which I think is the right measurement. Don't have a copy of COW and I found that .455 number on the Internet. Does this sound right? There is not much of a leade just an approximately .250 long reduction into the rifiling. Is this good or bad ? Any comments or help are appreciated guys.

[Buckshot]

So this is what the chamber cast measurements are

Looks like a .43 Spanish except the neck measures .464 instead of .455 which I think is the right measurement. Don't have a copy of COW and I found that .455 number on the Internet. Does this sound right? There is not much of a leade just an approximately .250 long reduction into the rifiling. Is this good or bad ? Any comments or help are appreciated guys.

.............Well that Internet info is bogus and screw COTW, because you have the hot skinny from your own rifle. The .464" is correct, or in the ballpark. I just went and measured a couple fired unsized cases from one batch of 20. These are Bertams and the necks are .012" thick. The neck OD is .466". So .466" - .024" (2 x .012") = .442".

As best as I can measure the caseneck (shoulder to mouth) is ~ .495"/.497". All your numbers add up. Looks like your rifle has a shorter leade then mine. There is no throat as we're used to seeing. Normally there is a step (reduction in OD) at the casemouth into the throat. In the case of the 1879 Argie Rem RB's the chamber's neck OD continues forward without the step reduction to within about .250" of the land origin.

...............Buckshot

[Charlie in Co]

Well after a timeout I'm ready to get dies, moulds, and brass to start shooting. Some background, I'm an experienced reloader and bullet caster for other centerfire rifles e.g shoot a custom heavy barrel 6-284 and a 7 x 444 Contender.
so here goes:
1) Lee or CH4D dies ? RCBS seems real expensive (maybe there is a reason?)

2) Which mould to fit the throat in the chamber cast above? Custom mould OK?

2a) Sized to 441 or 442?

3) Pyrodex or real blackpowder?

4) Which brass from Buffalo Arms?

[wills]

1. Many people swear by RCBS. I had a problem with an RCBS product once. RCBS asked for my address and sent me a good one. Didn’t ask for a receipt, return the defective item, nothing, just sent me a good one.

2. If it is a blackpowder cartridge, shoot black in it. Buy or build a blowtube.