44 SPL pressure test of 2400 and 44-250-K

[Larry Gibson]

44 SPL with 2400 & 44-250-K; Keith’s loads


In the previous thread [http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?402592-44-Special-P-data-and-report/page3, post #53] I posted this;

“Yesterday I loaded up the 44 SPL test rounds. I loaded 10 shots each of 16.0, 16.5, 17.0 and 17.5 gr Alliant 2400 in both WRA cases and new Starline 44 SPL cases. The bullet was the RCBS 44-250-K cast of COWW + 2 % tin. They were sized .430 and lubed with BAC. OAL is; 1.565".

Surprisingly the WRA cases were only 0.5. gr less weight than the Starline cases. The WRAs also had a much larger ES of weight than did the Starline cases.

The WRAs were primed with some old Remington 2 1/2 LP primers as those may have been used by Keith. The Starline cases were primed with WLP primers as they are readily available today.

I also loaded 10 shots each of both WRA/2 1/2 cases and Starline/WLP cases and 16.0 gr of 27 year old Hercules 2400 for a comparison to the same loads with Alliant 2400. However, 10 shots of 17.5 gr Alliant 2400 were also loaded in WRA cases with WLP primers for a direct comparison of case to case pressures.”

The test was conducted early this morning. There were no surprises as the pressures and velocities were as expected. Previously in the thread I had posted the psi of a previous test (2/25/2019) conducted last year using the RCBS 44-250-K bullet in Starline 44 SPL cases with Winchester WLP primers using 16.0 gr Hercules 2400. The psi was 19,300 with a velocity of 1198 fps out of the same test Contender barrel. Test temperature then was 45 degrees.

The test this morning was conducted on the same range from the same bench, but the temperature was 85 – 95 degrees during the test. All test equipment and components were shaded however with nothing other than the screens in direct sun light. With that it was expected the 40+ degree difference would give an increase in psi and velocity. It did but not as much as I expected.

Test conditions;

Ten shot test strings of each charge
Target at 50 yards
Start screen at 10’ but the M43 corrects the velocity to the muzzle
Temperature; 85-95 degrees
Humidity; 7%
Barometric pressure; 29.76
Altitude; 908’ ASL

Test firearm;

Contender with 8.4” barrel
Sights; Bushnell 1.5X

Pressure and velocity measured via Oehler M43

Test results WITH Alliant 2400;

A2400……Case……..Primer……Velocity…..SD…..ES……..PSI(M 43)……SD……..ES
Charge
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
16.0………WRA………2 ½ …………1225……..21…….69………20,800…….1,400….4,200
……………….SL………..WLP…………1288……..19…….64………23,400…….1, 300….4,000

16.5……… WRA………2 ½ …………1275……..11…….29………22,500……..700……2,000
……………….SL………..WLP……….…1325………9………32………25,000……..90 0……2,900

17.0……… WRA………2 ½ …………1346……..13…….43………26,400…….1,300….3,900
……………….SL………..WLP……….…1367………8………25………26,300………700 …...1,800

17.5……….WRA………2 ½ …………1378……..14…….41………27,600…….1,800….4,200
……………….SL………..WLP………..…1400……..19…….58………29,800……. 1,500….4,500

Test results with Hercules 2400;
---------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

16.0…….. WRA………2 ½ …………1275……..19…….54………21,300…….1,200….3,700
……………….SL………..WLP……….…1264……..21…….62………20,600…….1 ,000….3,200

As we can see the Hercules 2400 performed very similar to Alliant 2400.

As to accuracy the 16.0 and 16.5 gr groups all were 2 – 2.5”. Even with the excellent internals recorded accuracy with the 17.0 and 17.5 gr groups ran 4 – 6”. As similar 1350 – 1500 fps velocity loads in magnum cases hold accuracy I’m suspecting the bullets are obturating at the psi level of those charges in the unsupported part of the chamber in front of the 44 SPL cases in the 44 magnum chamber.

I seem to recall(?) Elmer claimed 1200 fps with the 17.5 gr load out of 6 – 6 ½” barreled Colt FT SAs. So I chronographed (10 shots) of 17.5 gr in the WRA cases with 2 ½ Remington primers. The muzzle velocity was 1177 fps [20 fps SD, 58 fps ES]. With my old eyes and shaky hands I managed to put 8 of them into 2.9” at 50 yards with the other two making it right at a 4” group……’bout the best I can do with the iron sights. Maybe old Elmer wasn’t too far off……..

[fn1889m]

Oh. I thought that read “.44 SPL pleasure test...” at first.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[rking22]

Thanks, Larry Gibson, more valuable data on some well known loads. Since my 44 specials are both 5 shot midsize guns(GP100 and 696), you have confirmed these loads are more than I want to put thru them. And, even better, a quantifiable value to make the decision. I suspect the 17 gr loads might have been quite a bit of “pleasure”! Would be a handful in a 696 for sure!

[Outpost75]

Very interesting. I have had good results in the past using 16 grains of #2400 in .44 Magnum brass with good accuracy and acceptable ballistic uniformity.

263986

[35 Whelen]

Thanks for the tests Larry. Good information there. Do you think chamber pressure would be different from a revolver?

When I bought my Flat Top Blackhawk some 7 years ago, I tried the Keith load too:

https://i.imgur.com/uSkuOb9l.jpg

I was really surprised at the accuracy and the pictured group wasn't a fluke, as I shot a few others. The bullet in that load was a 429421.

For the game I hunt, I now load the RCBS 44-250 KT and velocities are slightly lower than same loads with the 429421 because of the difference in the amount of bullet in the case. I don't see any need in loading over 1,000 fps unless someday I get an untamed follicle and decide to pursue elk with a revolver instead of a rifle.

Thanks again for your work.

35W

[onelight]

Thank you for post Larry , this information is going to be very helpful for many of us.

[cowboy4evr]

Larry , I personally want to thank you for that info / test using different loads and showing only slight difference between Alliant / Hercules powders . It shows only " lot to lot " variation , as you have stated numerous times in the past . Regards Paul

[Larry Gibson]

35 Whelen

"Do you think chamber pressure would be different from a revolver?"

It is "assumed", most often, the pressure would be slightly less in a revolver chamber than in a test barrel given the same ammunition. The thought is the long cylinder throat [essentially free-bore] and the barrel cylinder gap would reduce the psi. However, after observing the measured time/pressure curves and the "rise" to peak pressure of many pistol loads indicates peak pressure in handgun cartridges would most often occur before the bullet is fully into the barrel. That is even with the slow burning powders such as 2400. That's why, when pressures are excessive, the bulging and/or bursting occurs in the cylinder.

Many years ago before I began pressure testing I read an article where an Oehler M43 was used to measure the psi of a 357 magnum with the strain gauge affixed over a chamber on a revolver cylinder. As I recall (?) t was found the measured psi was very close to that obtained in a solid test barrel with the same ammunition. I've wanted to do the same test but since the bluing is removed to affix the gauge I haven't done it. Thought maybe a stainless might work as well or a revolver that was going to be refinished? Just haven't found a "donor" revolver for that yet as there must also be sufficient space between the cylinder and top strap for the gauge to freely fit.

[onelight]

Well it is great to see the difference in the Starline cases I don't think I will work up past 16 grains with them in my flat top Ruger .
Thanks again.
For another great post.

[DougGuy]

I have long opined that since the Flattop 45 is known to be safe with 45ACP+P pressures of 23kpsi, that the Flattop 44 would be safe with loads up to 25kpsi because of it's slightly thicker cylinder walls.

The load with 17.0gr 2400 slightly eclipses that figure, but not by much, (and since my 25k pressure rating was purely speculative, no real testing or proven data to substantiate such claim), I would say that I would consider 17.0gr 2400 a safe but maximum charge in SL brass, with the same boolit at the same COA.

Just out of curiosity I would be interested in the same tests, using H110, the other "go to" slow burn powder. Of course charge weights would be different.

Thank you VERY much Larry for your time and expertise and for posting your results!

[ddixie884]

Thanx Larry. It seems you managed to prove that some of our basic ideas have some validity. I'm surprised there wasn't more difference in some of the pressures and velocity values. H2400 and A2400 are really close in burning rates and modern cases and primers do seem to cause slightly higher pressures, but not as much as I might have assumed. Speculation is well and good but real data is very welcome. Thanx again for the labor and expense for the test........

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Good work!

[Three44s]

Thank you!

Three44s

[ranchman]

Good data Larry ... if I was even remotely nearby, I'd bring some VvN110 over to see what that should test out to under the 250-K as well. I had my hopes up that someone closer would offer. Nonetheless, Hats off for the 2400 work.

[ddixie884]

I'd like to see the results on the VV 110 myself.......

[Larry Gibson]

I checked the LGS's for a lb of VV 110 but found none. Not surprising given the current situation......:cry:

[Tracy]

Thanks, Larry!

[JAC43]

Thanks for all the work, Larry. Do you happen to know the case capacity of the WRA cases? I've been looking for some to measure the water capacity in grains for my load notes. Seems they are pretty scarce nowadays.

[Larry Gibson]

Do you want some WRA cases?

[JAC43]

PM sent

[missionary5155]

Well once again Time well spent reading your tests Larry.
When do you think you will have the chance to strain gauge a "pig" running a 200 round belt ?

Last time I went through tank gunnery at the machinegun range our M73 was running the typical fire 4-6 round jam sequence. Took it to the armorer and said "Fred I really need your help today". So Fred open a special tool box and pulled out an M73 he just rebuilt correctly. I told him "Thank you" !
10 minutes later I had it mounted next to the main gun with a 200 round belt. First 5 rounds ran smooth as silk. A 10 round burst sounded sweet. A 25 round burst was fantastic... sounded better than a caliber .30 Browning. So the next 25 round burst became 50 then 75 then 100. I could not believe how smooth and quick that MG was cooking. Then as I turned left with a big smile watching the best running M73 I have ever fired it jumped up with a very load WAM, blew the loading tray open and and took on a strange twisted look.
Needless to write when I walked back to the armores truck with the pieces Fred was standing in the door looking down at me. With an ugly look he said" I knew as soon as I heard that long burst it was you! I hope the CO makes you buy that wreck !"

[missionary5155]

Double posted ? Erased and wondering ?

[Larry Gibson]

"When do you think you will have the chance to strain gauge a "pig" running a 200 round belt ?"

That would be interesting.....the M43 Oehler will measure a 10 round "burst" of automatic fire......

Back when I was an SF Weapons NCO and went through depot level armorer's repair school the M73 machinegun was one we worked on/learned about. At the time it still used the pawl that reached up and grabbed the empty case as it was extracted, pivoted it down and ejected out the bottom. Seemed like a weak system to me and indeed it was one of the main problems with the M43. I suggested to the NCOIC of the training the pawl be eliminated and a simple fixed ejector be used at the rear of the breach block travel to eject the cast straight down and out the bottom. Lo and behold a few years later i found myself in an armored cavalry unit. The coax machine guns there were M43A1s which performed fine because they had the pawl removed, a fixed ejector installed and ejected the fired cases straight out the bottom of the receiver..... A short time later the M72A1s were replaced with M219s which were basically the same coax machinegun except with a couple minor improvements. After that stint in the cavalry I went back to SF.

Seems in my Army career of many years I was destined to use/shoot a lot of machine guns as my initials are.....LMG.......:drinks:

[Outpost75]

The late Maj. Bruce M. Wincentsen referred to the early M43 as the "Civil Service Gun", i.e. "it seldom works and you can't fire it."

264692

[ddixie884]

Larry, I ordered you a pound of VV N110 from Midway USA. It should be there in a few days. Thanx, Gary..........

[trapper9260]

Thanks Larry for all you put into the test always learning, I read about 2400 and I use it ,I did not think there was much of different in it. For what you done show that .

[ranchman]

Larry, I ordered you a pound of VV N110 from Midway USA. It should be there in a few days. Thanx, Gary..........

Standing by..

[Larry Gibson]

Gotta cast some bullets. Have the following moulds;

429-200-RF
429215
429360
44-250-K
429421
429640HP
TL430-240-SWC

Which?

Alloy?

[ddixie884]

The bullet you used in this test will work. It will give a fair test against 2400. Thanx.........

[pworley1]

Thanks for the post. Great information.

[Larry Gibson]

"both WRA cases and new Starline 44 SPL cases. The bullet was the RCBS 44-250-K cast of COWW + 2 % tin. They were sized .430 and lubed with BAC. OAL is; 1.565".

Previous test was with this. I'll cast some bullets and get a test series with VV N110 loaded. My VV manuals do not list that powder with 44 SPL loads....are you using a load now?

[Savvy Jack]

Great work Larry......and Outpost75!!! :bigsmyl2:

Larry.....eagerly awaiting your 44 Magnum 44-40 information to discuss :guntootsmiley:

[ranchman]

"both WRA cases and new Starline 44 SPL cases. The bullet was the RCBS 44-250-K cast of COWW + 2 % tin. They were sized .430 and lubed with BAC. OAL is; 1.565".

Previous test was with this. I'll cast some bullets and get a test series with VV N110 loaded. My VV manuals do not list that powder with 44 SPL loads....are you using a load now?

I've never found a stitch of data on VvN110. Years back when 2400 was MIA and noplace to be found though, and I was (personally) looking for a comparable replacement, I turned to burn charts and compared other calibers that did list both powders in finding loads for my 41's & 44's. Long story short, I loaded mine to basically mirror 2400 data.

44 special using a 250-K or the Arsenal comparable mould to that bullet, which drops 265 with my alloy, I load 17.5gr VvN110 and have shot thousands through my Colts. Chronograph's read 1150fps in short 4,1/4-4,3/4 barrels and 1240fps through 5.5" barrels. My freedom arms 97 clocked 1285fps shooting that load. It's a dandy accurate load in every gun I've fired them, and I use it in my special-chambered guns as a bear carry load. Very anxious to see where pressures actually fall compared to the same 2400 ones already done ... I don't believe there will be any drastic differences. I actually believe VvN110 will pressure out a tad less than 2400 does, but soon enough we will see for sure. I do believe it's got a slight velocity & cleanliness edge to the old 2400 load.

[Larry Gibson]

Great work Larry......and Outpost75!!! :bigsmyl2:

Larry.....eagerly awaiting your 44 Magnum 44-40 information to discuss :guntootsmiley:

My article is in the latest "The Fouling Shot" which was posted on line a few days back. I will post here soon.

[Savvy Jack]

My article is in the latest "The Fouling Shot" which was posted on line a few days back. I will post here soon.

Been waiting on my e-copy, I didn't know it could be seen on line

[Forrest r]

Thank you Larry, always interesting reading.

For decades my favorite loads in the 44spl (bulldog) has been 16.0gr of 2400 using 180gr to 200gr bullets. Anything over 200gr to 220gr I used 15.5gr of 2400.

I would be interesting to see what the lyman 429215 or what I use, the h&g #142 would do with 16.0gr of 2400.

Back in the 90/91? I sent bullets 10 h&g #142 hp's into hercules and they tested the 16.0gr/#142 combo in 44spl for me. Their results were 18,600psi, saw no reason to doubt what they said and I've been using that load ever since.

[murf205]

Larry, have you ever pressure tested the PC'd boolits against more traditionally lubed? I know that the pc coating feels slicker and feeds smoothly on auto feed ramps but I've often wondered if there was a Pressure difference.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I ordered you a pound of VV N110 from Midway USA. It should be there in a few days. Thanx, Gary..........

Gary

Got the powder today, will get started. Need to cast some bullets first.

[ddixie884]

Larry, my computer died about a week ago and I just got back on-line today. Please use ranchman's loads for a starting point on this research as I've not used VV N110 at all in the past. I was just trying to contribute to the cost of research as I'm going to try some in my .41 and .44spls in the near future. Thanx again for your labor and use of your equipment for our education...............

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, have you ever pressure tested the PC'd boolits against more traditionally lubed? I know that the pc coating feels slicker and feeds smoothly on auto feed ramps but I've often wondered if there was a Pressure difference.

Not with the 44 SPL but I did an extensive test with 45 ACP and 45 Colt. Essentially no pressure or velocity difference.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, my computer died about a week ago and I just got back on-line today. Please use ranchman's loads for a starting point on this research as I've not used VV N110 at all in the past. I was just trying to contribute to the cost of research as I'm going to try some in my .41 and .44spls in the near future. Thanx again for your labor and use of your equipment for our education...............

Will do, I'm looking at 10 shot tests of 16, 16.5, 17 and 17.5 gr N110 under the same 44-250-K I used previously in Starline 44 SPL cases with WLPs.

[ranchman]

Will do, I'm looking at 10 shot tests of 16, 16.5, 17 and 17.5 gr N110 under the same 44-250-K I used previously in Starline 44 SPL cases with WLPs.

I don't recall (off the top of my head) from the other 2400 data whether you shot those strings for accuracy too or it's just for the pressure readings, but if accuracy is being recorded for each as well then it'll be interesting to hear what those results also show. While I did my work-up to 17.5, I found 17.5 itself to not only be most consistent over the chrony but noticeably most accurate.

I shoot (& load) alot of long range rifle, and in revolver-loads (just like rifle) a guy can find an accuracy/pressure node through load development that if tailored right will shoot lights out in just about any gun its loaded. The 7.5unique skeeter load we're all familiar with is another very-common one of the type* I do believe 17.5VvN110 is also a load sitting smack dab on the nose of a similar sweetspot in 44special...

Very anxiously watching to see your results Larry, and to see what the specifics under this in-particular load is going to be by numbers

[Wayne Dobbs]

Will do, I'm looking at 10 shot tests of 16, 16.5, 17 and 17.5 gr N110 under the same 44-250-K I used previously in Starline 44 SPL cases with WLPs.

Larry,

Have you tested (or considered testing) the "Skeeter Load" of 7.5 Unique and what I call the modern Skeeter Load from Brian Pearce of 8.0 Power Pistol with 245 - 250 Keith style Boolits? I'm really curious what their real pressures are.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,

Have you tested (or considered testing) the "Skeeter Load" of 7.5 Unique and what I call the modern Skeeter Load from Brian Pearce of 8.0 Power Pistol with 245 - 250 Keith style Boolits? I really curious what their real pressures are.

No, I have not tested Power Pistol in any cartridge yet. So many new powders......so little time.......

[ddixie884]

Larry,

Have you tested (or considered testing) the "Skeeter Load" of 7.5 Unique and what I call the modern Skeeter Load from Brian Pearce of 8.0 Power Pistol with 245 - 250 Keith style Boolits? I really curious what their real pressures are.

Larry posted info on the skeeter load in post #13 of " .44 special +P data and report " in this section of the forum..........

[Larry Gibson]

My bad, I thought Wayne was meaning a direct comparison test of the two loads......

[Wayne Dobbs]

My bad, I thought Wayne was meaning a direct comparison test of the two loads......

Thanks to both of you on that! My bad on not clearly defining things. I've been getting curious about Power Pistol lately. Pearce has been showing some great loads with it in .38 Special +P, .44 Special and .45 AR. Velocities stated are solid at what he represents are somewhat lower pressure. Hope you can explore it some time. I know you have nothing to do, Larry!

[ddixie884]

Well, I ordered Alliant 2400 and N110 from Midway USA the other day and it came today. The shipping and Haz Mat charges made it spendy but I opened my last bottle of 2400 the other day and I have been wanting to try N110 in .44spl and .41spl...........

[curioushooter]

We've got all the Vitavouri 110 you could want here. Nobody uses it because it costs about 50% more than domestics.

I settled on 16 to at most 16.5 grains of Alliant (2009 manufacture) 2400 with the H&G 503 MP mold. It casts right around 258 grains with the 96-2-2 alloy I prefer. It is a good load. It clocks at least 1200 FPS out of my 6.5" 624 with CCI 300 primers and starline brass resized in Hornady New Dimension dies. Seats 1.550 OAL. I long suspected that 17 grains was really a bit over 25000 PSI average like. This is good info.

One of my complaints, and talk about a minor complaint, is that 2400 is shooty and leaves unburnt powder behind. In my quest to find a cleaner alternative I tried Blue Dot, which works well, but it doesn't match either the velocity or the accuracy with that bullet. The Blue Dot works better in my 429244 hollow points which weigh a little over 240 grains.

vN110 is about the same burn rate as 2400 and is bulkier. It is single base. So it should be clean. It may be the alternative I've been looking for. I've heard people sing its praises in 357 mag.

[curioushooter]

Thanks to both of you on that! My bad on not clearly defining things. I've been getting curious about Power Pistol lately. Pearce has been showing some great loads with it in .38 Special +P, .44 Special and .45 AR. Velocities stated are solid at what he represents are somewhat lower pressure. Hope you can explore it some time. I know you have nothing to do, Larry!

PowerPistol is really quite excellent in 44 special. It is one of the few powders that Alliant actually lists in their current data.

Basically, the "skeeter load" of 7.5 grains of Unique with a 429421, which is over SAMMI max pressure, can be done with 8.0 grains of PowerPistol instead (this is a listed load on Alliant's website). It gets the same velocity and works just as well. In my accuracy testing I could barely tell any difference between it and Unique. It takes up much less space in the case.

I thought that because PP worked so well that the slightly slower and much bulkier Herco would work well, too. But there is hardly any data for it, and I haven't personally tried it.