Fluffiest powders( not including trailboss)

[mickbr]

Funny as it sounds its sometimes interesting to know how which powders fill cases better. Especially small charges of the fastest burners in larger cases( like 44 special). I am assuming there is no 'relative fluffiness chart' out there :smile: These are the powders available where I am, thanks for any comments if you know how they compare.( I left speciality powders like trailboss out of this comparison)
(I used clay and bullseye already but was thinking of trying a few more..)

1. Clays
2. Red Dot
3. WST
5. Bullseye
6. Win231/HP38
7. Universal
8. Unique

[Crow_Eater]

Some powder tables include a factor like "density per cubic centimeter" or the opposite, "Volume per [weight unit]" but I've never seen that systematically presented and used. It's in _Modern Reloading_ by Lee somewhere but I can't find it immediately.
No doubt one of the more professionally accomplished among us could point us to a source for that data.

[mickbr]

Interesting, I had not come across it previously

[mickbr]

Well I started answering my own question by plugging fluffy powders and x vs y into searches and looks like apart from the special powders like tinstar and TB, Red Dot is top of the list.

[farmerjim]

I like herco for most of my pistol loads. Most of my loads fill the case near the top.

[GhostHawk]

Red Dot can be very good, just remember it is unlikely to cycle a semi auto. .223 ar, 7.62x39, etc. Does fine in the pistol caliber carbines and the pistols.

I've had some excellent accuracy out of Red Dot in medium to large bores with quite mild loads. 4.6 grains in .357 mag under a 158 gr .359 cast.
Same for .444marlin and .44mag.

[Crow_Eater]

There is a table in my copy of Modern Reloading by Lee, must be first edition, copyrighted 1996. On pages 162-163 are tables that list powders by their volume in CC's by grain. His description of the table at the top of pg 162 is backwards, but based on the values and how he describes using the table, my interpretation, below, must be right.
In the table, "fluffier" is indicated by a higher decimal value. For example, Red Dot has a value of 0.14130, and AA#5, which is fairly dense, has a value of 0.06230. The higher number indicates more volume per weight (grain).

So to use your example from above

1. Clays 0.14620
2. Red Dot 0.14130
3. WST 0.12050
5. Bullseye 0.10640
6a. WW 231 0.09310
6b. HP-38 0.09260
7. Universal Clay 0.10990
8. Unique 0.10920

At least about 1996, WW 231 and HP-38 were not quite the same, unlike now, and Unique was not quite as dense as expected.
Just FWIW:
700X is also pretty "fluffy," at 0.13430, but because so little of it is called for by weight, it still tends to occupy little space in the case. With a 250 gr bullet in 45 Colt, in 1996 IMR recommended 6.3 gr for a volume of 0.84609 cc.
H-4227 is relatively dense at 0.07690, but takes up a lot of space in the case (in handgun calibers, anyway) because the charge weights are so much higher. With the same 250 gr bullet, the Hodgdon recommended starting load for 45 Colt in 1987 was 19.0 gr for a volume of 1.46110 cc.

I don't have numbers for NaCl, so I can't tell you the volume in CC's for the appropriate suggested grain of salt.

[kenton]

I'm not near it right now but I believe my Nosler loading manual lists percent case fill for all of it's load data which may actually be what OP is after. Unfortunately the Nosler manual doesn't have much in the way of pistol load data.

Edit: My Nosler Reloading Guide 8 lists it as "Load Density (Volume)". For a 38 special with a 158gr JHP (the only bullet listed) the greatest load density is a max charge of 5.2 grs of SR4756 for a 56% load density. Second is a max charge of 4.8 grs Unique at 50% load density

For 44 special, of the listed powders, the highest load density powders are: IMR 4227, Herco, and Unique.

[Martin Luber]

Crow almost says it, and I think the desired result s case volume as kenton notes, so combining the two you probably want to use the density to calculate the volume required for each specific charge designed to get X for velocity. So a load volume per velocity chart is needed.

All that said, it doesn't mean the load will perfom well because we aren't looking at burn rates.

just my rambling thoughts

[mickbr]

There is a table in my copy of Modern Reloading by Lee, must be first edition, copyrighted 1996. On pages 162-163 are tables that list powders by their volume in CC's by grain. His description of the table at the top of pg 162 is backwards, but based on the values and how he describes using the table, my interpretation, below, must be right.
In the table, "fluffier" is indicated by a higher decimal value. For example, Red Dot has a value of 0.14130, and AA#5, which is fairly dense, has a value of 0.06230. The higher number indicates more volume per weight (grain).

So to use your example from above

1. Clays 0.14620
2. Red Dot 0.14130
3. WST 0.12050
5. Bullseye 0.10640
6a. WW 231 0.09310
6b. HP-38 0.09260
7. Universal Clay 0.10990
8. Unique 0.10920

At least about 1996, WW 231 and HP-38 were not quite the same, unlike now, and Unique was not quite as dense as expected.
Just FWIW:
700X is also pretty "fluffy," at 0.13430, but because so little of it is called for by weight, it still tends to occupy little space in the case. With a 250 gr bullet in 45 Colt, in 1996 IMR recommended 6.3 gr for a volume of 0.84609 cc.
H-4227 is relatively dense at 0.07690, but takes up a lot of space in the case (in handgun calibers, anyway) because the charge weights are so much higher. With the same 250 gr bullet, the Hodgdon recommended starting load for 45 Colt in 1987 was 19.0 gr for a volume of 1.46110 cc.

I don't have numbers for NaCl, so I can't tell you the volume in CC's for the appropriate suggested grain of salt.


Thanks for that list! very interesting. Didnt realise clays was the least dense of all, I actually have that on hand.

[snowwolfe]

You can also use a filler material if you want a full case.

[alamogunr]

Several years ago, Junior1942, wrote up a procedure for calculating the volume density of powders. I've got it printed out somewhere but don't have time to look for it right now.

Also, I think I remember the list that others have mentioned from Lee. It already has these numbers calculated. Junior's write up was fairly detailed in how to use volume density,

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting - thanks for the post.

I have never used TrailBoss. Back when the big shortage was in full wing, when the LGS was able to get it in - it was gone before they could get it on the shelf so I just gave up on trying it. I was able to score a 8 round job of Red Dot though and since then, it had been my favorite - I do use Green Dot, Bulls Due and Unique.

Back to the Red Dot - I have had excellent luck with it out of my pistol cartridges and the largest I load is 45 Colt. It is also my "go to" oowder for reduced cast loads in 30-30 and 8mm Mauser. Maybe ignorance is bliss but I have never had an issue with it in a rifle cartridge in a reduced load as far as powder position in a case and have never used filler and they all went bang with no issue nor any signs of variation in accuracy from one shot to another. I just added 223 to the line up and am looking forward to playing with the RD with cast - BUT - in a bolt gun not a semi-auto.

I'm going to coy and paste this chart in my reloading notebook - good info to have on hadn't! Thanks!

[Baltimoreed]

I’ve used a ton of Red Dot in my .45lc and .44wcf chambered pistols and rifles but RD, Clays and Clay Dot are more or less interchangeable FOR MY PURPOSES, as a duelist shooting cowboy action. Big targets up close with 200- 250 gr bullets and no mouse pharts.

[Crow_Eater]

Crow almost says it, and I think the desired result s case volume as kenton notes, so combining the two you probably want to use the density to calculate the volume required for each specific charge designed to get X for velocity. So a load volume per velocity chart is needed.

All that said, it doesn't mean the load will perfom well because we aren't looking at burn rates.

just my rambling thoughts

If you know which powder charge will have the greatest volume, do you really need to know the percentage of the case it takes up?
Assuming of course you are not overflowing the case?

[megasupermagnum]

I just ran the math for 45 colt, based on max loads in the Lyman 50th manual. They were all very close, but the bulkiest are red dot and PB, which are very close. 700x and Clays are a close second. I did not try every powder, only these 4 from the manual. These differences are very small, less than the difference in one powder scoop size.

Lyman 50th, 255gr SWC : 200 gr SWC

Red dot max 6.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8478 : 6.9 gr, 0.9750
PB max 7.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8435 : 8.6 gr, 1.0363
700x max 6.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8058 : 6.6 gr, 0.8864
Clays max 5.2 gr, Lee scoop 0.7602 : 6.3 gr, 0.9211

[C.F.Plinker]

from the Lee website

https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/VMD.pdf

If you want to calculate the VMD for your particular batch of powder.

Get a pill bottle, weigh it empty in GRAMS and again full of water in GRAMS. Subtract one from the other. This difference, which is the amount of water the bottle holds, is also the volume in cubic centimeters.

Fill the bottle with powder, rap it on the table a few times to settle it, top it off, level it off, and weigh the powder in GRAINS.

Divide the volume (in CC) by the weight of powder (in grains) and you have the VMD.

[Crow_Eater]

I just ran the math for 45 colt, based on max loads in the Lyman 50th manual. They were all very close, but the bulkiest are red dot and PB, which are very close. 700x and Clays are a close second. I did not try every powder, only these 4 from the manual. These differences are very small, less than the difference in one powder scoop size.

Lyman 50th, 255gr SWC : 200 gr SWC

Red dot max 6.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8478 : 6.9 gr, 0.9750
PB max 7.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8435 : 8.6 gr, 1.0363
700x max 6.0 gr, Lee scoop 0.8058 : 6.6 gr, 0.8864
Clays max 5.2 gr, Lee scoop 0.7602 : 6.3 gr, 0.9211

Red Dot and IMR PB were my go to powders for ordinary 45 Colt loads. I got interested in the subject of powder density (or otherwise) as a result of PB being discontinued.
That's what got me interested in Solo 1000 and Solo 1250 (also discontinued), as they were single based, fluffy powders, as PB was.

[Crow_Eater]

Thanks for finding a file. It had to be out there somewhere!

[USSR]

Yep, Red Dot is a great all around powder. I shoot trap twice a week and it's my powder. Makes for nice light loads in my 45-70, and gives a good fill in my voluminous .45 Colt cases as well.

Don

[rockshooter]

another source would be the RCBS little dandy rotor tables- they will give you an idea of fluffiness
Loren

[Ozark mike]

I also thought about case filling powder for 45-70 lower loads for less wrist pain. my bfr is a handfull with ruger loads with full cases of h322 but havent found anything suitable

[SSGOldfart]

Several years ago, Junior1942, wrote up a procedure for calculating the volume density of powders. I've got it printed out somewhere but don't have time to look for it right now.

Also, I think I remember the list that others have mentioned from Lee. It already has these numbers calculated. Junior's write up was fairly detailed in how to use volume density,

So did Ken Waters, but he used water volume for case size and converted to powder density,I'm thinking Hodgdon manual #24 has this information in it. Lee also has a cart,that's what there dippers and auto risk powder measure are based on.