44-40 first endeavor, head me off at the pass...

[prs]

Been reloading since 1976, but first time with 44-40. I have my Mav Dutchman 430-200-RF bullets (a reduced twin of my own PRS 454-250-RF) cast and powder coated. Waiting on my Lyman lube/size die and for .429 and .430 Lee push through sizers. I was setting the dies in my Load Master last evening in as much as I can without sized bullets. The PC coated .430s are probably too big to chamber or even fit the reasonably flared case mouths. I will get by that wil sizing and hope to avoid too much case crushing.

I have only brand spanky new Starline cases and they seem a little more stout than other 44-40 cases I have seen, but they do not seem to be bottle necked, only a slight taper. The rims of the Starline cases are larger in diameter than are my 45 Colt cases by Starline, Rem., or Win. The larger rims will not pass through my Lee multi-tube case feed base by gravity. A little Dremeling with tapered stone should make a quick cure of that.

I will use the Lee seater die to just get the roll crimp set to kiss the bottom of crimp cannelure then the collet die to apply modest taper crimp. May have to modify the Lee collet die to get it's crimp fully below the exposed bullet, seems too tall by eyeballing.

I like "M" dies, but have not found one in 44-40, may look at 44SPL or buy cowboy dies. For now I will try to rely upon the Lee Powder Through die to internal size the necks, but experience tells me that die design has internal dimension of cases too small for lead bullets. Will be loading for modern Win 92 with Unique and Holy Black when sizers arrive and I find a round tuit.

Any hints or tips appreciated!

prs

[MT Chambers]

Rims of the .44 are larger because it was a rifle round first, the .45 Colt's was always a pistol round, some .44/40 barrels are .426/.427, you really should slug the bore first.

[Outpost75]

Modern .44-40 rifles and revolvers usually are assembled using barrels of .44 Magnum bore and groove dimensions. I have also seen original 1873 Winchesters as large as .435 and Colt New Service revolvers as large as .433". In older revolvers cylinder throats are typically larger than barrel groove diameter, .430 is most common, but guns which were shot a great deal with black powder, became frosted and lightly rusted which were aggressively cleaned afterwards can run larger than that.

In my experience soft 8-10 BHN bullets of .430" diameter are most accurate in the great majority of .44-40 rifles and revolvers, whether both old and new, even in my El Tigre and 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter which are both .425 groove. ALWAYS size revolver bullets to cylinder throat diameter, NOT to barrel groove!!!

HOWEVER if guns are chambered to SAAMI dimensions, the neck of the chamber may be too tight to accept cartridges assembled with .430" bullets in Starline brass. The expander plug in your die set should be 0.002" less than bullet diameter. A .44 Special or .44 Magnum expander will be better for bullets that "fit" than a too tight .425" typical .44-40 expander, which will damage bullets and cause buckled case mouths in seating bullets which fit tightly.

First, I would recommend slugging the chamber NECK using a soft, pure lead round ball, a .451 Speer or Hornady round ball for a cap & ball revolver works well. Tap this into the neck of the chamber, then tap it back out and measure it. MANY modern chambers on the Italian re-pops are .444" or smaller in neck diameter. Older Colts and Winchesters and most modern Marlins are .447-.448" chamber neck diameter, which is what you want. Tight chambers can be reamed, but this requires a correctly dimensioned CHAMBER reamer, not just a chucking reamer as you could do for the cylinder throats.

If chamber neck is .447 or so, you can load .430" diameter bullets in Starline brass, seating them to depth only with your seating die, having the crimp shoulder backed off. Then SEPARATELY profile crimp the loaded rounds using then Redding Profile Crimp Die and you are good to go.

I load all of my .44-40 rounds this way, for a 1905 Colt SA, a 1920 Colt New Service, a 1986 S&W 544 Texas Wagon Train, a Ruger Super Blackhawk (with extra Hamilton Bowen .44-40 cylinder) and Ruger Vaquero (rechambered by John Taylor to correct tight chamber necks) as well as a Marlin 1894 and a Spanish El Tigre. I use Roto-Metals 1 to 30 tin-lead, Lee Liquid Alox and .430 bullets in all of them with either Accurate 43-206H, 43-229H or 43-230G, with 6 grains of Bullseye.

263828263829263830

[south.net]

prs,
go to CAS City, on the Winchester '73 forum, in the stickies is " My 44-40 Black Powder Journey ". There's a wealth of info there.
Isom

[Outpost75]

+1 on the John Kort missive. IF you intend to shoot black powder, Accurate 43-215C cast 1 to 30 or 1 to 40 tin-lead with SPG lube is THE bullet of choice.

[prs]

Thank you to all of you. It is always best to hear from those who know. Your experience should really give me a big leg up on this project! Outpost, I will place a copy of your response in my archive.

This is a very recently made Winchester/Miroku 1892. It is the 24" non-take down and the only mod I have planned is a change of sights for my older eyes. I will impression the chamber and lead as well as the muzzle/crown soon. It is a beautiful rifle that I will break-in with ammo from my learing process.

John, I just re-read your excellent write-up. Brought back some memories RE the bullet design adventure. Just a few days ago I ran across my original plans for the 45 Colt PRS with line drawings. I also enjoyed longer range shooting with the samples of your version, but your accuracy/talent far exceeded mine. Like you, I hope our fellow enthusiasts benefit from our ventures.

prs

[country gent]

Handle cases with care they are thin and weaker than modern rounds. Some of my Winchester and starlines are down to around .007 wall thickness. Not a real big problem but something to be aware of and keep in mind

[Outpost75]

John Kort is no longer with us, but mentored us all. He will be missed.

[prs]

Oh my! I did not know........ :-(

prs

[prs]

Just to follow: The chamber neck diameter is .447" and groove diameter .427". My bullets are bit harder than suggested here and by John in his post at CAS City. I will use a less rich alloy in future. I really do appreciate great help!

PigeonRoost Slim

[missionary5155]

Good morning PRS
What 44 WCF rifle / carbine do you have ?? A groove of .427 in an old Winhester is near as rare as chickens teeth.
We have several and .430 + groove seems the normal with one at .434+.

[prs]

Missionary, this rifle is new producion Miroku Winchester. Never been shot (this will change soon). I make ainw of dumby rounds, three with .430 bullet and three with .429 bullet, both to OAL as specified in Lyman Cast Handbook, RNFP bullet (its what I have), new Starline brass that has been lightly chamfered inside and out. The .429 version cycled from magazine smooth as butter. With the .430 version I could feel just a little grab as the action neared full closure. I loaded 50 live rounds and soon will do a break in sequence. I suspect the .430 sizing will fit best after some good bit of use and with fired brass. Oh, and I did not crush or bulge any brass.

prs

[john.k]

You can fire oversize bullets no problem, but if you eject a loaded round ,the bullet stays put and the powder spills into the action ,causing a jam until every last kernel is removed ......In fact ,I found it easier to pour gasoline through the whole works and flood out the oil ,grease ,powder and gunk.......The rifle will smell for a while ,but I kinda like gasoline smell.......Just pour the fuel back into the mower drum,the gunk settles,the rest burns.

[Savvy Jack]

Been reloading since 1976, but first time with 44-40. I have my Mav Dutchman 430-200-RF bullets (a reduced twin of my own PRS 454-250-RF) cast and powder coated. Waiting on my Lyman lube/size die and for .429 and .430 Lee push through sizers. I was setting the dies in my Load Master last evening in as much as I can without sized bullets. The PC coated .430s are probably too big to chamber or even fit the reasonably flared case mouths. I will get by that wil sizing and hope to avoid too much case crushing.

I have only brand spanky new Starline cases and they seem a little more stout than other 44-40 cases I have seen, but they do not seem to be bottle necked, only a slight taper. The rims of the Starline cases are larger in diameter than are my 45 Colt cases by Starline, Rem., or Win. The larger rims will not pass through my Lee multi-tube case feed base by gravity. A little Dremeling with tapered stone should make a quick cure of that.

I will use the Lee seater die to just get the roll crimp set to kiss the bottom of crimp cannelure then the collet die to apply modest taper crimp. May have to modify the Lee collet die to get it's crimp fully below the exposed bullet, seems too tall by eyeballing.

I like "M" dies, but have not found one in 44-40, may look at 44SPL or buy cowboy dies. For now I will try to rely upon the Lee Powder Through die to internal size the necks, but experience tells me that die design has internal dimension of cases too small for lead bullets. Will be loading for modern Win 92 with Unique and Holy Black when sizers arrive and I find a round tuit.

Any hints or tips appreciated!

prs

I will start by replying to the black powder. If you choose to shoot black powder, you will be better off using the Accurate Molds 43-215C designed by John Kort. This has a large lube groove for better shooting results.

If your barrel slugged .427", yes, use .428" soft alloy with black powder....Swiss has been my preferred choice for accuracy loads.

The 44-40 "M" die should work fine with the .428" bullets, any larger and you need a 44 mag "plunger".

Starline cases are thicker than Winchester and thinner than Remington, best all around case and is my preference.

I do not prefer the 43-215C because of the crimp groove, I would rather give a LCF or Redding Profile Crimp instead. As long as you have good neck retention, a good "squeeze" crimp like the Lee FCD or the Redding Profile Crimp is more desirable. There are plenty of designs at Accurate Molds for the 44-40 bullets, both crimp groove and no crimp groove. The softer lead will allow a nice crimp.

The Lee FCD, use caution with this on larger diameter bullets. The collet with not close all the way on larger bullets and the case mouth will be forced out in between the collet splits and damage the case. Also, a too harsh of a squeeze will leave a "ring" around the case mouth. Can weaken the case when using full loads but other than that, should be fine.

Here is a link that might help.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

[prs]

I will start by replying to the black powder. If you choose to shoot black powder, you will be better off using the Accurate Molds 43-215C designed by John Kort. This has a large lube groove for better shooting results.

If your barrel slugged .427", yes, use .428" soft alloy with black powder....Swiss has been my preferred choice for accuracy loads.

The 44-40 "M" die should work fine with the .428" bullets, any larger and you need a 44 mag "plunger".

Starline cases are thicker than Winchester and thinner than Remington, best all around case and is my preference.

I do not prefer the 43-215C because of the crimp groove, I would rather give a LCF or Redding Profile Crimp instead. As long as you have good neck retention, a good "squeeze" crimp like the Lee FCD or the Redding Profile Crimp is more desirable. There are plenty of designs at Accurate Molds for the 44-40 bullets, both crimp groove and no crimp groove. The softer lead will allow a nice crimp.

The Lee FCD, use caution with this on larger diameter bullets. The collet with not close all the way on larger bullets and the case mouth will be forced out in between the collet splits and damage the case. Also, a too harsh of a squeeze will leave a "ring" around the case mouth. Can weaken the case when using full loads but other than that, should be fine.

Here is a link that might help.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading

I am uniquely aware of large (HUGE?) lube grooves. John started working with my PRS design in 45 Colt and later 44WCF and actually reduced my overgenerous groove to improve efficiency and he preferred certain original type profiles. I certainly will miss e-conversing with him.

Thanks for the heads-up on the possible collet crimp die problem. My crimps with that appear to be a bit too aggressive in test rounds, but I plan to back away. The crimps are not mashing lead above the case mouth. I ignore the crimp groove and set for OAL, but in this case they are mates.

I likely will get acopy of the "John Kort" 44WCF mold, gotta "heal-up" from the rifle purchase and reloading possibles. I, too, favor Swiss for real gunpowder.

Thanks for the great response!

prs

[prs]

First shots this afternoon. Not on paper, just at dueling tree and various other steel targets off hand at 50 yards. One miss out of 50 rounds. These rounds included some variations as I was tweeking the dies on my progressive press. These were smokeless with 9g up to 10g Unique under the coated 205g bullets. Front sight bead a bit small for 24" barrel.

prs

[Savvy Jack]

First shots this afternoon. Not on paper, just at dueling tree and various other steel targets off hand at 50 yards. One miss out of 50 rounds. These rounds included some variations as I was tweeking the dies on my progressive press. These were smokeless with 9g up to 10g Unique under the coated 205g bullets. Front sight bead a bit small for 24" barrel.

prs

Great news!! Looks like you on on your way to many years of enjoyment with the 44-40!!

[Savvy Jack]

If you don't need the crimp groove at all try the 43-214A. It works fine with black powder but has the normal grooves I left for smokeless powder. You can get the mold custom modified with the large grooves you you request it. Both John's 215C and my 214A are from the Lyman 427098 profile. When using true "44-40 profile" bullets, I get superior results with the Redding Profile Crimp with both lead and jacketed bullets.

264041
With the "first setting", Lead bullet crimp into the soft lead. Screw the die down further for Winchester JSP jacketed crimps that mimic the "U" shaped cannular.

264042
43-214A before the Redding Profile Crimp

264043
43-214A pulled bullet showing the crimp imprint from the Redding Profile Crimp

[Savvy Jack]

Oh I forgot to add, there is another modification of the 43-215C designed specifically for the LFCD. However, one must still not forget the bullet diameter issues.

43-219M - http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-219M-D.png
264104

[Texas by God]

I guess I am the Oddball here because I have used a Lee 3 die set in the green round box for several years with no problems at all. The 44-40 has become one of my favorites.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[prs]

Savvy Jack, after inspection my initial batch of fired cases I did find evidence of where the Lee collet die pinched little divets around the case mouth. I slightly increased the roll applied to the case mouth by the seating die ( I know, I know; but...) to allow the collet fingers to skip over the case mouth. I did mangle a few cases in getting that seating die set to roll, almost no adjustment between no roll and too much. Good heads-up, but I had already loaded those.

Texas by God; I am using Lee's current 3 die set in 44-40, now comes in red flat case, but same die set. I have added an "M" die and the collet die all used in my 5 stage press.

prs

[indian joe]

RCBS cowboy mold is also a good blackpowder mold for 44/40 (and 38/40) - nice profile, big enough lube groove to shoot without cleaning, and keeps to the original 200grain weight.

[prs]

Savvy Jack; your heads-up about the collet die dog-earing the case mouths with .430" bullets has been varified by me; if it is set to crimp at all, it pinches between the collet seams. I am roll crimping in final stage now and just seating at seating stage as we have long known to be the way. Again, thanks to all of you good shooters!

prs

[Outpost75]

Indian Joe is correct on the RCBS bullet. However, my experience with both my 1905 Colt Frontier Six Shooter and 1920 Colt New Service is that they impact low relative to the sights when firing the lighter 200-grain bullets. To avoid having to cut down the original sights on those guns I use the Accurate 43-229H to identify my mild, 6 grain Bullseye loads for the SAA, and 43-230G for somewhat heavier 7 grain Bullseye loads used in the heat-treated Colt 1920 New Service as well as the S&W Texas Wagon Train, Ruger Vaquero, Spanish El Tigre and Marlin levers.

265711265712

[Savvy Jack]

Outpost, folks are doing it.........I spy a 43-200Q


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUJWk4baeec

[Outpost75]

They sure are pretty! 8-)

[Larry Gibson]

My vicarious pressure testing of 44-40 loads is posted; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?406689-Vicarious-44-40-Pressure-Testing

[Savvy Jack]

[smilie=w:

[prs]

Thanks again, Larry. Enjoyed your article.

prs

[CamoWhamo]

Oh I forgot to add, there is another modification of the 43-215C designed specifically for the LFCD. However, one must still not forget the bullet diameter issues.

43-219M - http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-219M-D.png
264104


That is my design.
It was originally designed to work well with the Lee FCD but i have since discovered that it works equally well with the Taper crimp from the Hornady Cowboy Series dies and with the Redding Profile crimp die.

It is sized at .430 for modern .44-40 rifles like those made for Winchester by Miroku which are using .44 Mag barrels (either as a cost saving measure or because most available components are .429 - .430).

The lube groove as pictured and spec'd in the catalog is sized for smokeless loads but you can ask Tom to cut it deeper (to same as the 43-215C) for the holy black when ordering.

[Savvy Jack]

That is my design.Winchester by Miroku which are using .44 Mag barrels
CamoWhamo, I apologize for the off topic a tad but what is the typical twist rate for 44 Mag rifle barrels and what is the twist rate for your 44-40 barrel? If I recall correctly all of my 44-40 barrels are 1:36" while my 44-40 MGM 20" test barrel is 1:20".

[indian joe]

CamoWhamo, I apologize for the off topic a tad but what is the typical twist rate for 44 Mag rifle barrels and what is the twist rate for your 44-40 barrel? If I recall correctly all of my 44-40 barrels are 1:36" while my 44-40 MGM 20" test barrel is 1:20".

Bryan
I have a rebarrel from Sprinter arms in South Australia - nearest I can measure the rifling is 427x421 and twist appears to be 1:22 (it did about 270 degrees for 16 inches of rifling) also have an early Uberti thats the classic 1:36 both shoot ok but the Uberti dont like heavier boolits and a bit of distance (think oblong holes at 200yards and 2foot group).

[Savvy Jack]

Bryan
I have a rebarrel from Sprinter arms in South Australia - nearest I can measure the rifling is 427x421 and twist appears to be 1:22 (it did about 270 degrees for 16 inches of rifling) also have an early Uberti thats the classic 1:36 both shoot ok but the Uberti dont like heavier boolits and a bit of distance (think oblong holes at 200yards and 2foot group).

That was what I was wondering. I even use the the phrase "44 magnum barrels" but in reality, I always thought the 44 mag barrels were 1:20 while the 44-40's were 1:36". I guess in reality, which I don't really know, if the 44 Magnum rifle barrels are not offered in 1:36", I suppose they (44-40) are not really 44 Mag barrels even though they are typically .429?

It was always my understanding the 44 Mag rifle barrels were 1:20 in order to get those heavier (heavier than 240gr) bullets down range.

Thoughts?

[CamoWhamo]

CamoWhamo, I apologize for the off topic a tad but what is the typical twist rate for 44 Mag rifle barrels and what is the twist rate for your 44-40 barrel? If I recall correctly all of my 44-40 barrels are 1:36" while my 44-40 MGM 20" test barrel is 1:20".

That's a good question and one I hadn't actually considered. I always kind of assumed that they were using the .429-430 barrels to either save on tooling costs or because .429 projectiles are readily available and .427 is virtually unobtainable for those who don't cast.

Out of curiousity i tried to measure the twist on my Miroku 1873 with 24" octagonal barrel using the bronze brush on a cleaning rod.
Either the bronze brush was slipping in the bore or the twist is slower than 1:24" because it didn't make a complete turn when pulled down the entire length of the barrel.
I didn't want to push a tight patch down the bore today to get a better result but next time i'm giving it a thorough cleaning i will try to measure again.

[Savvy Jack]

That's a good question and one I hadn't actually considered. I always kind of assumed that they were using the .429-430 barrels to either save on tooling costs or because .429 projectiles are readily available and .427 is virtually unobtainable for those who don't cast.

Out of curiousity i tried to measure the twist on my Miroku 1873 with 24" octagonal barrel using the bronze brush on a cleaning rod.
Either the bronze brush was slipping in the bore or the twist is slower than 1:24" because it didn't make a complete turn when pulled down the entire length of the barrel.
I didn't want to push a tight patch down the bore today to get a better result but next time i'm giving it a thorough cleaning i will try to measure again.

Maybe Outpost75 or one of the other 44 Mag, 44 Special rifle guys can clear this up for us.

[Outpost75]

Maybe Outpost75 or one of the other 44 Mag, 44 Special rifle guys can clear this up for us.

I can't speak for the Japchesters or Italian guns, but both my Marlin 1894S carbines in .44 Magnum and .44-40 have slow twist barrels of .431" groove diameter, which shoot poorly with factory jacketed .44-40 softpoints having .425" bullet diameter. My Interarms Rossi .44-40 was likewise, but .433" and keyholed with factory loads, which is why I got it so cheap! All shoot well with 6 grains of Bullseye and Accurate 43-230G cast 1 to 40 tin-lead sized .431".

My 1920s Spanish El Tigre is slow twist with groove diameter .430" at breech, diminishing to .425" at muzzle and is the only .44-40 I own which will stay in a Campbell's soup can at 100 yards, versus a bucket for the others firing factory softpoints.

[Savvy Jack]

I can't speak for the Japchesters or Italian guns, but both my Marlin 1894S carbines in .44 Magnum and .44-40 have slow twist barrels of .431" groove diameter, which shoot poorly with factory jacketed .44-40 softpoints having .425" bullet diameter. My Interarms Rossi .44-40 was likewise, but .433" and keyholed with factory loads, which is why I got it so cheap! All shoot well with 6 grains of Bullseye and Accurate 43-230G cast 1 to 40 tin-lead sized .431".

My 1920s Spanish El Tigre is slow twist with groove diameter .430" at breech, diminishing to .425" at muzzle and is the only .44-40 I own which will stay in a Campbell's soup can at 100 yards, versus a bucket for the others firing factory softpoints.

Thanks for chiming in Outpost75!

[Savvy Jack]

Oh, look what I now see on the Uberti USA website
https://www.uberti-usa.com/uberti-posse-blog/the-official-uberti-usa-rate-of-twist-chart

The 44 Magnum is not shown but I know my 73' Uberti is 1:36"

[indian joe]

That was what I was wondering. I even use the the phrase "44 magnum barrels" but in reality, I always thought the 44 mag barrels were 1:20 while the 44-40's were 1:36". I guess in reality, which I don't really know, if the 44 Magnum rifle barrels are not offered in 1:36", I suppose they (44-40) are not really 44 Mag barrels even though they are typically .429?

It was always my understanding the 44 Mag rifle barrels were 1:20 in order to get those heavier (heavier than 240gr) bullets down range.

Thoughts?

'slugged my uberti this morning -.428 (only using digital calipers and about a thou either way is how that works - the slug from the sprinter barrel also told me .428 this morning - too tight to call em 44mag barrels anyway)
The boolit that caused me grief in the Uberti is only 225 grain, a big flat meplat slug from Cast Bullet Engineering here in Aus, my measure is .430 as cast and its only .640 length - you would think not a problem ? load was proly 35 grains of the old goex 5FA and it shot fine at closer ranges - a load I had been using for ages - a couple more grains of powder proly woulda kept it going ok - or at least pushed the wobble out another 100 yards.
Projectile stability is a whole nuther story - you can be running right on the edge and never know - it gets ten degrees colder and all of a sudden what was a tack hole load wont hit your hat.

[indian joe]

Oh, look what I now see on the Uberti USA website
https://www.uberti-usa.com/uberti-posse-blog/the-official-uberti-usa-rate-of-twist-chart

The 44 Magnum is not shown but I know my 73' Uberti is 1:36"

yep! mine is a 66, early manufacture 1:36, and .428 bore