Maximum velocity from J-frame snubby with 180 grain cast bullet?

[pettypace]

I'd like to get the most velocity I can (safely) with a cast 180 grain bullet out of a .38 Special +P snubby. Anyone have any actual experience over a chronograph with that combination?

[Schreck5]

I have tried it in an LCRx 3" and was unsuccessful. The bullet key-holed at only 30 ft. and i didnt dare push it any harser than i already was. On the other hand it really shines in my SIL's Henry BBB.357.

[Froogal]

Just my opinion, but ANY snubby is best used within 10 to 20 feet of the intended target. At that distance, velocity really doesn't matter.

[pettypace]

I have tried it in an LCRx 3" and was unsuccessful. The bullet key-holed at only 30 ft. That surprises me. A couple days ago I shot three of the 180 grainers into one hole at about that distance from a 6" barrel. I doubt they were much over 600 ft/s and showed no signs of tipping. On the other hand, 200 grainers at about 650 ft/s from the snubby show tipping on the target and do a 180 flip in the gello.

[pettypace]

Just my opinion, but ANY snubby is best used within 10 to 20 feet of the intended target. At that distance, velocity really doesn't matter.

I'm trying to expand a hollow point. So, velocity does matter!

[downzero]

I'm trying to expand a hollow point. So, velocity does matter!

Good luck. I barely break 800 fps in mine with a 160ish grain hollow point.

[Gray Fox]

It seems to me you are at cross purposes in trying to get a boolit that heavy from that cartridge and barrel length expecting to get a HP to expand, even if it is cast of pure lead and a bit of tin added. The Brit .38-200 .38 S&W round was/is an effective round at 650 fps without any expansion. If your boolit has any reasonable meplat that should give you all the effectiveness you're going to get in that package. I have four such revolvers and use the Ranch Dog/NOE 175 grain RNFP that drops at 180 grains of WW to approximate the older round. Just my take FWIW. From my experience the only reliable expansion rounds from that gun are from the Remington 110 grain +P banana jacket HP and the 148 grain hollow base wadcutter loaded with the hollow base forward. The latter out to about 7 yards flies true and really flattens out. With either one you may not get the depth of penetration to the vitals you need. GF

[35remington]

Depending upon seating depth and powder used which of course is a major variable I would put it in the 810-830 fps range. This from a 1.875” Smith.

I try to avoid much +P use in aluminum J frames and do my load work up in a short barreled 357 to ensure experimental load velocities are within reasonable and projected limits before subjecting my J frames to them, with an offset to allow for the modest difference in barrel lengths and chamber lengths.

A long history of so doing allows me to predict the velocity obtained from the slightly shorter 38, which when confirmed to be reasonable over the chrono is then used in the smaller/weaker 38.

Sparingly if Plus P, as noted.

[pettypace]

Here are some very preliminary results. All dead soft lead with the same moderate charge of Herco:

263818

Shot #1 looked encouraging. But it was into naked water.

Shot #2 was with 4 layers of denim stapled to the milk carton. Not nearly as encouraging.

Shot #3 was through the denim but with a glob of hot melt glue filling the hollow point. Close inspection show the HP trying to expand.

Shot #4 was from Walter's old 4" 38-44 Heavy Duty

Shot #5 was from my 6" Outdoorsman. Note no increase in velocity with 6" barrel.

Shot #6 was back to the Heavy Duty.

And here's the goal:

263819

[pettypace]

Depending upon seating depth and powder used which of course is a major variable I would put it in the 810-830 fps range. This from a 1.875” Smith.


That's encouraging! Dare I ask what powder(s) you'd recommend?

[serger]

Pettypace, Looks like you're running about 4 grains of Herco?

[pettypace]

Pettypace, Looks like you're running about 4 grains of Herco?4.4 grains from an antique can.

[megasupermagnum]

Which bullet is this? Is it the MP 360-180 RF? From the pictures I'm seeing, the penta points leave the nose quite thick. I would try the large hollow point pins, they look to be larger.

[Outpost75]

With S&W J-frame the operative query is how many rounds do you require before having to stretch the crane arbor to take up excessive end-shake, and how much barrel-cylinder gap is acceptable to maintain your required velocity.

Based upon Vietnam-era experience with the S&W Model 60 and using USAF PGU/12-B ammunition at 23,000 cup, the service life of the gun is no better than 500 rounds between rebuilds, with two rebuilds being the max. possible when setting the barrel back during the second rebuild and stretching the crane twice. If the gun is accepted and fully expected to be "disposable" to be stripped for parts and the rest scrapped after about 2000 rounds for its total service life, given a factory trained armorer touching the gun and installing the factory-available oversized parts and returning it to the MACV NOC it can be done for a while...

Anything beyond this is pure fantasy.

A full-sized K-frame Model 10-5 or later is a much better platform.

[pettypace]

Which bullet is this? Is it the MP 360-180 RF? From the pictures I'm seeing, the penta points leave the nose quite thick. I would try the large hollow point pins, they look to be larger.

Yes, it's the MP 180 RF mould. I'll try a couple of the large pins next casting session.

[pettypace]

With S&W J-frame the operative query is how many rounds do you require before having to stretch the crane arbor to take up excessive end-shake, and how much barrel-cylinder gap is acceptable to maintain your required velocity.

Based upon Vietnam-era experience with the S&W Model 60 and using USAF PGU/12-B ammunition at 23,000 cup, the service life of the gun is no better than 500 rounds between rebuilds, with two rebuilds being the max. possible when setting the barrel back during the second rebuild and stretching the crane twice. If the gun is accepted and fully expected to be "disposable" to be stripped for parts and the rest scrapped after about 2000 rounds for its total service life, given a factory trained armorer touching the gun and installing the factory-available oversized parts and returning it to the MACV NOC it can be done for a while...

Anything beyond this is pure fantasy.

A full-sized K-frame Model 10-5 or later is a much better platform.

A little reality therapy, hey?

And this is also the point that 35remington was making -- that a load might be "safe" and still strain a little J-frame. Point taken. "Thanks" to both of you.

[OldBearHair]

I think that it would be good to try filling the hollow point with silicone or the grey sidewalk crack filler in a test. It might negate the denim from plugging the hole and cause the bullet to expand more faster. I have some 44s loaded with happy faces drawn on the grey filler.

[35remington]

I would suggest Power Pistol, starting at 4.5 grains depending upon bullet seating depth and type and go from there. Max should be from 5 to 5.4 grains again depending on bullet seating depth. If possible I try to approximate standard seating depth of 158 RN or SWC if the bullet design allows a crimp in that location and the bullet does not poke out the cylinder face. I would be more comfortable in obtaining my stated velocity with a 180 grain bullet if the bullet allowed such shallower seating.

Despite supposedly being between Unique and Herco in burn rate, Alliant published loads for all three in the Plus P vicinity run a little faster with Power Pistol when chronographed in my guns. The difference amounts to maybe a whole 30-50 fps but that is what it is.

I will state that for myself a 158 at the top end of the standard pressure range with 4.7 grains Unique gets 810 from an Airweight Smith 638 as long as the powder is not bunched up near the front of the case. This is about all I can manage in reasonably controllable repeat fire. This is certainly not easy on me for long practice sessions, which see something more like 660-705 fps with a cast 148 grain wadcutter, the higher velocity needing around 3.1 grains of Bullseye. Frequent shooting loads are below standard pressure limits and I want nothing to do with Plus P with any heavy bullet.

You may be shooting these through something heavier for all I know. More power to you but a 180 through my Airweight at 810 fps is a little much compared to some of my preferred alternatives.

Will ne interested to hear of your results as you proceed and what you think is manageable in your particular gun.

[EMC45]

I shot some Ranch Dog 190gr RNFP out of my Model 36. I think I shot a cylinderful and that was good enough.

[pettypace]

Will be interested to hear of your results as you proceed and what you think is manageable in your particular gun.

Feel like I made a little progress today.

266160

These three shots were fired through four layers of denim, into a 1 gallon zipper lock Hefty bag full of water, and captured in an old block of (no longer very) Clear Ballistic gel.

The bullet is from an MP 358-180 mould with the large hollow point pin. The alloy is moderately soft but unknown. The hollow points were filled with red RTV. The powder charge was 8.0 grains of Hercules 2400 from the very bottom of a 5 lb. keg with an $18.00 price tag on it.

This is more or less the performance I had hoped to get from the snubby. But my first shot from the snubby only clocked 617 f/s, so I didn't bother expansion testing with the 2" barrel and switched to an Outdoorsman for these three shots.

I'm encouraged by three points:

1) The RTV seems to keep the hollow point from clogging with the four layers of denim.
2) It seems that velocities just a bit over 700 f/s will give the amount of expansion I was hoping for.
3) This particular load seemed quite docile through my 640 and I feel that another 100 ft/s should be possible.

Of course, more testing is required.

[1006]

Back to the first six shots photo, the 5th shot appears to have expanded more than the 4th, indicating that the chronograph may have miss measured its speed as slower than it was.

[megasupermagnum]

Definitely looking good. At these levels, I would bet you could get away with nearly pure lead, and it may work even better.