is the 44-40 underpowered for hogs and medium game?

[mickbr]

Seems you mention a cast bullet at 1200fps on regular forums and its underpowered or even hazardous, yet a short barrel 44 mag or even 10mm auto these days is touted as good bear defence medicine.:confused:

[Ozark mike]

Nothin wrong with 44wcf on hogs or small blackies.
Wouldn't be caught with a 10 its just un American. What weight & profile.

[Texas by God]

To answer your title question- No, the 44-40 has been killing deer and hog size animals just fine since 1873.

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[fordwannabe]

I used a Marlin 1889 in 44-40 a few years ago to shoot a doe. Spoiler alert.. she died in 20-25 yards

[Outpost75]

Full charge .44-40 loads which launch a half-once bullet at 1000 fps revolver or 1080 +/- 30 fps carbine are entirely adequate for deer and boar at woods ranges. Keith in Sixguns and Loads (1935) recommended a caliber which starts with a "4" firing a 1/2 oz. (218 grain) bullet at 1000 fps. STILL WORKS!!!!

In a strong rifle or revolver you can safely bump those velocities to around 1200 fps in a Ruger revolver and 1400+ in a Winchester 92 or Marlin 1894 rifle without needing a GC.

[sharps4590]

Say it ain't so Outpost75!! You honestly mean to say that a fella doesn't really need $4.00 solid copper bullets loaded to 3500 FPS to kill a 110 lb. whitetail at 65 yards? It cannot be so!!

[Larry Gibson]

Seems you mention a cast bullet at 1200fps on regular forums and its underpowered or even hazardous, yet a short barrel 44 mag or even 10mm auto these days is touted as good bear defence medicine.:confused:

Who is "you"?

for hunting I shoot 240 gr cast at 1400 fps or 215 GC'd at 1650 fps out of my M92 44-40 Uberti carbine with 20" barrel. I would hardly consider that as "underpowered or even hazardous" except as in hazardous to deer and hogs...... Back in the day the 44-40 in the M92 with the express loading was considered the epitome of a deer hunting lever action rifle. Contrary to popular myth deer are not any harder to kill and neither are feral hogs.

[Ozark mike]

Solid copper bullets are probably serial numbered and microstamped to be California legal before being blessed with transgender fairy dust, that's why they cost $4 each.

I laughed so hard at this now when i see those west coast tourists that like to run out in front of me this is what im gonna have running through my head

[white cloud]

You mean I really don't need the 300 Weatherby for deer hunting?

[mickbr]

Who is "you"?

I is Mick.



for hunting I shoot 240 gr cast at 1400 fps or 215 GC'd at 1650 fps out of my M92 44-40 Uberti carbine with 20" barrel. I would hardly consider that as "underpowered or even hazardous" except as in hazardous to deer and hogs...... Back in the day the 44-40 in the M92 with the express loading was considered the epitome of a deer hunting lever action rifle. Contrary to popular myth deer are not any harder to kill and neither are feral hogs.

I tend to agree Larry. But a quick search on a variety forums reveals not everyone does. A familiar line is "we owe it to the animal to use the best tools at our disposal". Which if applied would wipe out the sports of archery, muzzleloading, pistol hunting, blackpowder etc.

[NorthMoccasin]

Don't over look the "puny" 38-40 either. I have killed quite a few hogs and whitetails with 180 grains at 1400 fs out of my marlin 1894.

[Ozark mike]

Years ago deer turkey and anything else we deemed fit droped to a 22lr so this is a no brainer

[oksmle]

.... Many years ago when I only had one center fire revolver & one center fire rifle they were both .44/40s. The revolver was a Colt SAA with a 7 1/2" barrel & the rifle was an "El Tigre" lever action with a 20" barrel. (That's the Spanish copy of the Win. '92 & to say it was cheap is an understatement. The original Win. receiver sight is probably worth more than the rifle). I loaded for the revolver using the Lyman 42798, trying for the original BP velocity of 975 fps. It took 8.5 grains of Unique to do that. Shooting the same loads in the rifle they reached about 1275 fps. I was told by some local experts I was "under gunned." But being the only rifle available at the time, I simply used what I had. The rifle accounted for an awful lot of Whitetail deer in Maryland, Pennsylvania, W. Virginia, Virginia, Michigan & later here in Oklahoma. It is now doing duty, only with the Lyman 427666 bullet cast of WW, with my son down in central Texas, on deer & hogs. I have never told him he is "under gunned." And he wouldn't believe me if I tried to.
My only suggestion would be to try some of the 427666s & keep the velocity down around 1300 fps. Then shoot it enough to feel confident in your ability.

oksmle

P.S. I still carry the revolver with 5 chambers loaded in my travels, & occasionally use it in our Military Revolver Matches with the above load.

[ndnchf]

Full charge .44-40 loads which launch a half-once bullet at 1000 fps revolver or 1080 +/- 30 fps carbine are entirely adequate for deer and boar at woods ranges.


I like this. So even my little .44 cal. #2 Remington rolling block would be adequate. It was originally rimfire, but now centerfire. Using a 427098 bullet with a heel turned on it, over 23gr of 3F Old Eynsford, it averages 1124fps. It makes a dandy, lightweight carry rifle.

[GregLaROCHE]

Since no one has said it yet, I will. It’s all about bullet placement.

[MT Chambers]

Today's deer require a hunter to have a Gunwerks rifle and a Husky-Ma scope, or it could get dangerous.

[yeahbub]

Yeah, I heard that you dare not venture out without the newest .999 MAGNUM crew served. Those deer are dangerous! A couple years ago, one attacked my car as I was driving down the road! The .30-30 has been known to bounce off of them. Anemic! Underpowered! But a .357 out of a 10" Contender pistol never fails as long as it has a scope on it. . . . . Ahem, harrumph, snort.

[Texas by God]

Yeah, I heard that you dare not venture out without the newest .999 MAGNUM crew served. Those deer are dangerous! A couple years ago, one attacked my car as I was driving down the road! The .30-30 has been known to bounce off of them. Anemic! Underpowered! But a .357 out of a 10" Contender pistol never fails as long as it has a scope on it. . . . . Ahem, harrumph, snort.I always found it amusing that a 30-30 10" Contender was considered a long range Pronghorn gun but a 20" 30-30 rifle shouldn't be used past 100 yards.....

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[DougGuy]

If the levergun will safely shoot +P or Ruger Only loads, you could easily get any of the suitable boolits to 1200fps or more, 1200 is probably doable with standard loads out of a 16" or 20" barrel, so yeah I would say 44-40 is every bit a good deer or hog or black bear round as any other pistol caliber that is .400" or bigger in bore size.

[Drm50]

I have a buddy from WVa who is the 4th generation hanging on the back of a Marlin 1894 44/40.
It’s a long barrel rifle and his family has killed dozens of deer and black bear with that rifle for 100yrs. The family doesn’t load and never fired anything but factory. They aren’t gun people they hunt every season and never saw the need for anything else. They shoot 100yds or under, take their deer , end of story. People got their deer and bear for years with 38/40 and 44/40 rifles. As far as deer many with 25/20 & 32/20. It’s a rumor that deer took Cape Buffalo pills, they are still fairly easy to kill, if you make a decent shot.

[Outpost75]

I have a buddy from WVa who is the 4th generation hanging on the back of a Marlin 1894 44/40.
It’s a long barrel rifle and his family has killed dozens of deer and black bear with that rifle for 100yrs. The family doesn’t load and never fired anything but factory. They aren’t gun people they hunt every season and never saw the need for anything else. They shoot 100yds or under, take their deer , end of story. People got their deer and bear for years with 38/40 and 44/40 rifles. As far as deer many with 25/20 & 32/20. It’s a rumor that deer took Cape Buffalo pills, they are still fairly easy to kill, if you make a decent shot.

I have several neighbors who match that description. Mostly shoot original Winchester 1873s, and there are a few Colt Frontier Six Shooters and New Services in the mix. Now that factory ammo is harder to find I admonish them to save their empty brass and I load ammo for them to barter in exchange for free-range poultry and eggs. No money can exchange because I am not "in the business." A casual exchange of commodities between friends.

Six grains of Bullseye and a soft 8-10 BHN bullet of .430" diameter is very safe, but a "full charge" load in the black powder frame guns which approximates the velocity of the modern, mild factory ammo, about 950 fps from a 5-inch revolver and 1140 fps from a 20-inch carbine, maybe 1200 from a Long Tom 26-inch rifle. The Accurate 43-206H feeds in all and is accurate and good game performance. It is my .44-40 boolit of choice. This is a short "stump nose" SWC resembling Keith's #452423 scaled down to .44

263831263832

[beltfed]

Second last buck with my first yr production Winchester M92 Rifle /44WCF Octagon
One shot one kill at 65 yds, load of 22-4227 under IDEAL mold 429434HP- 210 gr.9+1ww/lino
Velocity about 1330fps. setup with Orig Lyman tang sight.
Shoots "cloverleaves" at 75 yds. Good enough for my North Woods hunting.
beltfed/arnie

[DougGuy]

Six grains of Bullseye and a soft 8-10 BHN bullet of .430" diameter is very safe, but a "full charge" load in the black powder frame guns which approximates the velocity of the modern, mild factory ammo, about 950 fps from a 5-inch revolver and 1140 fps from a 20-inch carbine, maybe 1200 from a Long Tom 26-inch rifle.

263832

That is one sweet looking piece of Hartford handiwork there, sir......

[Outpost75]

That is one sweet looking piece of Hartford handiwork there, sir......

Yes it is. Some more eye candy for you:


263870

[ndnchf]

The late John Kort, who did a tremendous amount of .44 WCF research and testing showed that a full case of Reloader 7 was very close to the original black powder loads for both pressure and velocity. I have chronographed this load and several other pistol size rifle cartridges and confirmed similar black powder velocities. In pistol size cartridges, it is akin to the early bulk smokeless powders. I've used RL7 quite a bit and find it accurate and easy to use.

[Ozark mike]

Oh uh this is still goin well here is something else to think about although its not advised there was written accounts from ye olde days where people had to defend em selves from grizz with c&b revolvers one that comes to mind used a colt dragoon. Compared to that a 44-40 is like a magnum so if that in there little ole deer is still charging you after a 430 slug bounces off its tasty hide you better of to just stay in the basement with Biden because you're doing it ..... WRONG

[murf205]

Solid copper bullets are probably serial numbered and microstamped to be California legal before being blessed with transgender fairy dust, that's why they cost $4 each.


"Transgender fairy dust!", dang it, just as I was about to get this whole powder coat thing figured out, here comes another coating!

[Ozark mike]

I thought they might be one in the same isnt California the one who started the plastic revolution maybe its just being renamed

[bigted]

I like this. So even my little .44 cal. #2 Remington rolling block would be adequate. It was originally rimfire, but now centerfire. Using a 427098 bullet with a heel turned on it, over 23gr of 3F Old Eynsford, it averages 1124fps. It makes a dandy, lightweight carry rifle.

That is very cool. How or what did you use to crimp your heeled boolit please?

[ndnchf]

That is very cool. How or what did you use to crimp your heeled boolit please?

I used a special collet crimp die from Bernie Rowles at Old West Bullet Molds. Details are in this discussion. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?400234-44-cal-2-Remington-rolling-block

[Shawlerbrook]

The idea is get a super duper double magnum with the Hubble telescope mounted to make up for either laziness or lack of hunting skill.

[sharps4590]

For those who discount such honorable, long lived and effective cartridges such as the 30-30, 44-40, 38-40, 38-55 ad infinitum and cast bullets I have this to say. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. A lot of ignorance is even more dangerous.

[LtFrankDrebbin]

I remember reading an article years ago about the Winchester 92 in Australia. I recall them stating that the 92 in 38-40 or 44-40 were the preferred rifle for the buffalo shooters up north pre 2nd world war. The thing to do was get the half mag type, chomp the barrel level with the mag/ forearm. They'd ride the horse along side the running buff and spine shoot them.

Surely that be enough to say they're enough for medium game within a realistic range.

[mickbr]

Im in Australia as well, and that is correct. They would also do the same thing with a 410 shotgun held one handed to the head. What a lot of our countrymen don't know is the amount of Winchester levers and colt revolvers were imported here in the day. Australia had its own wild west going on, or rather 'wild everywhere' as it was being colonized and went another few decades than the US one did in some areas. The Northern territory was still shooting it out into the 1920's, only 20 cops in that entire state by 1930.
Ive seen a particular collectable pistol in a gunstore with a news clipping attached to it. The owner was an old landowner and got into an argument with another landowner over a dead calf on a boundary. Things escalated and other guy who was on a horse had a bolt action 22LR and got the first shot off. They put a few rounds into each other, the pistol wielding guy was down at one point and eventually shot the other guy off his horse. They were both in pretty poor shape when the workers came to help them and were flown to the nearest city, Cairns which is my hometown region. In hospital they decided to corroborate a story to avoid being thrown into prison. When the cops turned up they stated a guy had come out of the bush with the colt pistol and 22LR and shot both of them up. :D

[indian joe]

I remember reading an article years ago about the Winchester 92 in Australia. I recall them stating that the 92 in 38-40 or 44-40 were the preferred rifle for the buffalo shooters up north pre 2nd world war. The thing to do was get the half mag type, chomp the barrel level with the mag/ forearm. They'd ride the horse along side the running buff and spine shoot them.

Surely that be enough to say they're enough for medium game within a realistic range.

There was a movietone newsreel showed the buff shooting - using a sawed down 303 one handed -early days was all done for skins ------ part of the deal with spine shooting them in later years was the rules for delivery of meat - spine shot buff would stay alive until they could get a truck in to the spot - then they finished him off and loaded for delivery to the processing works - tough times and hard men!!

[KCSO]

By chronograph FFg Black powder will give a 45 Colt 1100 fps and a 44-40 will clock over 1150. A 200 grain bullet in the 44-40 with FFF Swiss lightly compressed will run 1200 fps from my Henry Rifle's 24" tube. Group 1 loads in smokless for toggle action will go 1300 with safe loads and M92 Winchesters will hit over 1500 with the right powder. The old 44-40 is no magnum but it is no slouch and is adequate for any medium game.

[Gewehr-Guy]

I read a paperback book about a man in Australia hunting buffalo with a cut down Martini Henry. He was a WW1 vet, and later served again in WW2, which ended his hide hunting. Wish I could find that book again, a very interesting read.

[MT Gianni]

All in the wording. In the US an 80 lb blacktail is considered large game. I believe the British called medium game animals weighing between 500-1000 lbs. I would consider the 44-40 to be undergunned on elk on all but a close bow range and a perfect shot.

[Savvy Jack]

Outpost just put out his new bullet design that would put a world of hurt on a hog.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-229H-D.png

[Geezer in NH]

Magnumistis, disease of the magnums. Power was never enough unless a magnum.

As a flintlock shooter I laugh at them. I do not shoot past 100 yards anyway.

If I need to shoot past that most modern cartridges will work.

Ain't no elephants on this continent.

Deer have not become stronger in the last 200 years. Shooters of them have become incompetent and think power helps. Idiots it seems.

[LeftyDon]

Magnumistis, disease of the magnums. Power was never enough unless a magnum.

As a flintlock shooter I laugh at them. I do not shoot past 100 yards anyway.

If I need to shoot past that most modern cartridges will work.

Ain't no elephants on this continent.

Deer have not become stronger in the last 200 years. Shooters of them have become incompetent and think power helps. Idiots it seems.

Pheasants too. You need a 3.5" 12 gauge goose gun to attempt to bring one down and anything less than #4 shot just won't do.

[Savvy Jack]

The problem with deer hunting now days is that all of the libtards that claim to be conservative think all shots have to kill instantly........Ban all Native American weapons.

[Mk42gunner]

I always found it amusing that a 30-30 10" Contender was considered a long range Pronghorn gun but a 20" 30-30 rifle shouldn't be used past 100 yards.....

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I too found that amusing or confusing when I first started reading gun magazines. Also the idea that a .257 Roberts was fine as a boys or ladies rifle, but a real man needed a .30-06 or larger for anything.

If a boy or lady can kill a deer, antelope, elk whatever with a smaller round, why does a "real man" need something bigger?

Robert

[Savvy Jack]

Also the idea that a .257 Roberts was fine as a boys or ladies rifle, but a real man needed a .30-06 or larger for anything. If a boy or lady can kill a deer, antelope, elk whatever with a smaller round, why does a "real man" need something bigger? Robert Stop using logic mister!!

[444ttd]

Magnumistis, disease of the magnums. Power was never enough unless a magnum.

As a flintlock shooter I laugh at them. I do not shoot past 100 yards anyway.

If I need to shoot past that most modern cartridges will work.

Ain't no elephants on this continent.

Deer have not become stronger in the last 200 years. Shooters of them have become incompetent and think power helps. Idiots it seems.

you mean they don't have a kevlar vest?

[frogleg]

Since no one has said it yet, I will. It’s all about bullet placement.

Yes If shot too far back even a 375 H&H does not kill quick enough.

[Savvy Jack]

We all know you can only kill hogs with a 45-70 guide gun loaded for Water Buffalo!!

[Texas by God]

We all know you can only kill hogs with a 45-70 guide gun loaded for Water Buffalo!!
I didn’t get the memo I guess. Last week I killed a 200lb or so boar with a 60gr 22-250......

[Savvy Jack]

I didn’t get the memo I guess. Last week I killed a 200lb or so boar with a 60gr 22-250......

BLASPHAMY! lol

[Cast_outlaw]

I though the smallest u should on anything from a deed down to a rabbit was a 460 Wetherby mag

[444ttd]

I though the smallest u should on anything from a deed down to a rabbit was a 460 Wetherby mag

no silly, a chipmunk!!!! elmer fudd used a double barrel rifle in 700 nitro express to kill a wabbit.

[Savvy Jack]

no silly, a chipmunk!!!! elmer fudd used a double barrel rifle in 700 nitro express to kill a wabbit.

That is exactly why DNR took Elmer's shotgun away from him!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Who is "you"?

for hunting I shoot 240 gr cast at 1400 fps or 215 GC'd at 1650 fps out of my M92 44-40 Uberti carbine with 20" barrel. I would hardly consider that as "underpowered or even hazardous" except as in hazardous to deer and hogs...... Back in the day the 44-40 in the M92 with the express loading was considered the epitome of a deer hunting lever action rifle. Contrary to popular myth deer are not any harder to kill and neither are feral hogs.

Wait, NO !!! Larry,,, Deer and Pigs are much tougher now than ever before. They have evolved into massive creatures which are nearly bullet proof and resist killing by anything weaker than a Cartridge developed in the last 10 years. This evolution has occurred in spite of the 100+ million of their ancestors who were dropped with that ridiculously weak round. This is a completely new breed of animal, and I'm pretty sure that "internet scientists" were responsible for it's creation.

Evolution is no joke! And neither is stupidity. I'm seeing it in full force on TV every night!

Randy

[Drm50]

I’ve only killed 4 feral hogs. One with 44mg SBH and other three with 30/06 M95 Win. I have killed a lot of hogs and steers with 22. I had a steer of about 800lb that was ornery and wild. I was going to rope it out of back of truck and get over where I wanted to kill it. It had other ideas and ran around front of truck tearing of wipers and burnt my hands. I was POed and only had a 22 rifle. I couldn’t get near it, it would run off 20yds like a dog playing. I finally leaned up against building and shot it in the head between eyes and ears and killed it deader than a clam.