Hi-Standard HD Military Questions

[PBSmith]

I've owned the later High Standards and had great luck with them (Supermatic, Citation, Victor, etc), but never owned an older piece.

Am tempted to bid on an HD Military (marked as such) that's for sale on the web. No inspection privilege.

What, if any, problems typically appear with these and how expensive/difficult are parts and repairs?

Look forward to your comments. I've read a couple of threads here dealing with the HD but might not have found the important ones.

Thanks.

[contender1]

I own a few different models of HS semi-auto .22's,, including a couple of HD Military's. Having an exposed hammer is an easy way to spot them from a distance. One thing I found is that if you fail to PROPERLY follow the CORRECT disassembly procedure,, you WILL have BIG problems. The takedown lever, if removed w/o the proper procedure,,, causes a lockup. And,, after that,, darn near impossible to get taken apart re-assembled.
I had one brought to me missing the takedown lever. I learned of all the issues because of that one. It took a LOT to get that gun apart,, and re-assembled. And there are 2 different take down levers. I spent a few years,, trying to find somebody who could help me & such. NOT an easy task.
I prefer the other models that allow the easy removal of the barrels. But there are 2 HS HD Military's in my stable now,, because of that problem child that was brought to me.

[engineer401]

I had one many years ago. It was accurate and reliable. The only issue I had was finding magazines for it.

[Catshooter]

Use only sub-sonic ammo in them. They don't like a diet of hi-speed, they were built before that stuff was invented.


Cat

[M-Tecs]

While it is true some HS have a frame cracking issue with HV they are the later removable barrel models. Not sure how many round my dad's now my HD-M has thru it but 75K HV for sure. My guess is closer to 100K with 99.9% HV.

Contender1 is spot on with the disassembly advise.

Some basics on the frame cracking issues here. https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t4285-high-standard-frame-cracks

Manual can be downloaded from here https://histandard.info/

https://histandard.info/manuals/hampistols/1264D1200VP.pdf

https://histandard.info/manuals/hampistols/1265D1200VP.pdf

https://histandard.info/manuals/hampistols/0116D1200HP.pdf

https://histandard.info/manuals/hampistols/0117D1200HP.pdf

I do recommend that new owners replace the recoil spring with a new recoil spring and then replace the recoil spring every 15,000 rounds.

I have read that the H-D Military model HV ammo is harder on the stop lug at the thin section where the take down lever shaft passes through. Mine shows nothing usually so I will continue to shoot HV in it.

This is a High Standard HB but the major points are the same.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=716&v=uv0CjY55vyU&feature=emb_title

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6JRm2kXXU

[243winxb]

Had one. New is better. Some parts-https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/high-standard/auto-pistols-hs/hd-military

[Chill Wills]

M-tecs, that is some good info and I enjoyed the video.
I have my fathers since 2004. You can guess why. He got it soon after the war. He was on the state's small bore team and must of had a short interest in handgun. Growing up, it was always around but almost never shot and is still close to like new condition. By the time it came to me, non use and time gummed it. I quickly found out I did not know enough to take it down and clean it. It is now at a friends who in the last few years took a liking to them and knows how to go through them and adjust the lips on the magazine for feeding. I will pick it up this summer when we meet up for the championship matches in Raton. It will be fun to shoot it and remember dad.

[Green Frog]

While shooting any 22 with SV ammo is probably a good thing from an accuracy as well as a wear and tear issue, if the slide says “High Standard HD Military” and it has the thumb safety, it is a commercial gun built after WW II, and long after the advent of HV ammo. I seem to remember reading somewhere that they did a quarter million round endurance test on one back in the fifties and it came through without a hitch.

I should note that I used to collect the “Letter Series” High Standards, and of course had many HD-Ms pass through my hands. The only real problems any of them seemed to have came from improper attempts to disassemble them.

Froggie

[Drm50]

I have a 4” HD-Mil for over 50yrs, thousands of HVs through it and I don’t know how many before I got it. I’ve had several other 4” guns and a 63/4” that I still have too. Parts are not easy but can be found, fast if you want to pay horrible prices. Same with all Hi-STDs. No big deal to take them apart and fairly easy if you know what you are doing. I’ve got a nice frame/ 4” that I found looking for parts. $40, I’ll have another $200 in getting it together.

[higgins]

I had an HD military that cracked the piece that the slide hits on recoil; the piece that pivots down to remove the slide. I have no idea how much it was shot before I bought it, but I put quite a bit of HV long rifle through it. Fortunately repair parts were readily available when I needed them in the 1970s so I was able to replace the broken part. I don't use HV in it any more.

[osteodoc08]

I had one. Didn’t see the allure of it and passed it down the road. I did try to find magazines for it and had a hard time doing so

[M-Tecs]

For me the allure is it was the first handgun I fired at 4 or 5 years old. It was and still is dads. He is still going strong at 97 but his HD military has lived with me for the pasted 20 years. I know I've put 75K through it.

The claim that High Standards predated high velocity ammo is not correct since the A's were introduced in 1932. https://dailycaller.com/2018/01/05/classic-plinkers-hi-standard-h-d-military/

Remington introduced high-velocity type 22LR in 1930. High Standard introduced the H-D in 1940. https://www.guns.com/news/2013/02/21/the-high-standard-hd-22-pistol-dirty-deeds-done-dirt-cheap

https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/know-your-cartridge-22-long-rifle

At one time, the .22 Long Rifle was available in black-powder, semi-smokeless, and smokeless powder loads. Remington introduced the first high-velocity type, in 1930. The 40-grain solid and 36- and 38-grain hollowpoint bullet have been available for many years.

My holy grail gun is an High Standard HDM https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/06/01/high-standard-hdm/

If I find a rat at a descent price I will do the paperwork and build a legal one.

Francis Gary Powers had one when he was shot down. His daughter was my recruiter and I was her first recruit.

[Outpost75]

Magazines are the main issue. If you tweak mags should run any ammo.

In supressed versions run only Eley or RWS subsonic or CCI Geen Tag.

[M-Tecs]

I have 8 original mags. I don't know if these are any good or gunk but aftermarket mags are available. https://www.gunclips.net/histsugunma.html

[Green Frog]

For me the allure is it was the first handgun I fired at 4 or 5 years old. It was and still is dads. He is still going strong at 97 but his HD military has lived with me for the pasted 20 years. I know I've put 75K through it.

The claim that High Standards predated high velocity ammo is not correct since the A's were introduced in 1932. https://dailycaller.com/2018/01/05/classic-plinkers-hi-standard-h-d-military/

Remington introduced high-velocity type 22LR in 1930. High Standard introduced the H-D in 1940. https://www.guns.com/news/2013/02/21/the-high-standard-hd-22-pistol-dirty-deeds-done-dirt-cheap

https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/know-your-cartridge-22-long-rifle

At one time, the .22 Long Rifle was available in black-powder, semi-smokeless, and smokeless powder loads. Remington introduced the first high-velocity type, in 1930. The 40-grain solid and 36- and 38-grain hollowpoint bullet have been available for many years.

My holy grail gun is an High Standard HDM https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/06/01/high-standard-hdm/

If I find a rat at a descent price I will do the paperwork and build a legal one.

Francis Gary Powers had one when he was shot down. His daughter was my recruiter and I was her first recruit.

While High Standard pistols actually came along about the same time as High Speed 22 LR ammo, I’m more comfortable wit SV in pre-War examples. In my previous post, I was referring to the post-War Guns only.

First, let me mention there are three distinct versions of the HD. The first, made the last couple of years before WW II is marked just Model HD and is quickly identified by the lack of a thumb safety. During the war, HS was contracted by the military to modify their design by adding a thumb safety... they are not HD Militaries though, they are marked HD-USA. This was the model that also came silenced and was popular for OSS and later CIA use, including the famous Gary Powers gun, and on up until use until the Vietnam Nam war until development of the S&W “Hushpuppy” based on the Model 39.

After WW II, when returning Americans had a desire for all kinds of firearms, High Standard simply made a new roll stamp for HD Military markings and sold about a quarter million of the same gun they developed for the military, following Colt’s marketing idea to use “Government Model” on their civilian 1911s. This was the third and most popular Model HD, and the one most frequently encountered. I sold almost all of my spare parts collection about 25+ years ago, so I can’t speak to parts availability, but once agin, the HD-M almost never breaks if the shooter isn’t named Bubba.

Just to flesh things out, prior to the war, there were Models B & C on short grip frames and A, D, and E with longer grips and adjustable sights. Hammer models were HA, HD, HE and the short framed HB with all but the HB having adjustable sights and all lacking a thumb safety. During the war, only the essentially unchanged Model B (marked B-USA) and the HD-USA were made for the military. After the war they resurrected the Model B, introduced the HD-M, and developed an improved Model HB with the thumb safety added.

And there you have it, a distilled history of the early High Standards. Are you confused yet? ;)

Froggie

PS The Model C fired 22 short, and as far as I’ve seen there was never a Model HC.

[M-Tecs]

I am assuming your second paragraph refers to my previous pronouncement, your own third paragraph seems to contradict your statement. If you will reread my post, I was quite specific in describing the relationship of late (post-War) letter Model High Standards to use of then common high velocity 22 LR ammo.


I didn't misread YOUR comments nor was it directed at you. You assumed wrong. Specifically my comment was directed at the information in post #4. As you are aware that is one of the myths that never dies on most HS threads.

Paragraph #2 was improperly worded attempt to point out High Standard did not start producing this type of pistol until 1932.

I do wish I had your experience with the HD-M's . Pictures are as close as I have come to one.

[Green Frog]

Sorry M-Tecs, I had read your post too fast and got the meaning completely wrong... mea culpa! :oops: I already corrected my post as soon as I saw what I had done. Please accept my sincere apologies.

Yes, the old High Standards are a fun topic to dive into, and have gone from the shadows where they were when I started collecting them back in the ‘70s, to a downright respectable status. A couple of good collector books will have that kind of effect on the market! [smilie=l:

The various HD models do make a great possible collecting subset all by themselves. The most fascinating I encountered were the silenced HD-USA (I once owned a demilled barrel and can for one) and the even more elusive target upgrade that High Standard did for the Navy (IIRC) by fitting a very heavy bull barrel and the late style adjustable sight to a few examples of the HD-USA. GPC had a few of those barrels and I even was able to build a copy of that nearly unknown gun... I wish I’d kept that one!

Again, sorry I let my typing get ahead of my reading comprehension... I can only blame it on insufficient caffeine. :coffeecom

Best regards,
Froggie

[Green Frog]

More HS info: Prior to the development of the external hammer models High Standard had an earlier takedown design inherited from Hartford Arms, whose designs, equipment, and assets they purchased, and especially the first (referred to by collectors as the “Type 1-A Takedown”) was subject to breakage. These variants are readily identifiable by the small round rod whose end projects slightly from the rear of the slide. Next came a beefed-up version (“1-B”) with a sort of squared off, enlarged projection. Either of these is more delicate than the later, “Type 2” style And probably should be limited to SV ammo... the design dates back to about 1925. I realize this is a little bit of thread drift, but it may explain some of the misconceptions about ammo for early High Standards.

Froggie

[Drm50]

My 4” was found in bottom of dufflebag with 16mags and one in the pistol. No govt markings, it’s HD-Mil. It came from USMC who inherited it from another who rotated out. I don’t know where it originally came from. I saw several HI STD pistols but never govt marked.

[M-Tecs]

Yes, the old High Standards are a fun topic to dive into, and have gone from the shadows where they were when I started collecting them back in the ‘70s, to a downright respectable status. A couple of good collector books will have that kind of effect on the market! [smilie=l:



No problem and thanks for the info. Which good collector books are your referring to?

Any recommendations on where to get prints, diagrams or detailed pic's of HD-M's

Thanks.

[Wis Tom]

There was some good info given here, thanks. I have an HB, but haven't needed any parts. I would have liked having another mag, as I only have one, but never even got around to ever looking for one.

[Green Frog]

The first “modern” book on the High Standards came out around 1980 and was written by Charles Petty. There were two others that come out about 5 or 10 years later, but I can’t remember the authors off the top of my head. (Perhaps one by a guy named Dance??) Prior to those, there was one little paperback from back in about the ‘50s or early ‘60s, and that was about it.

One of the biggest challenges to High Standard collecting for me was finding out what little info on their history I did find!

Froggie

[Green Frog]

The last two books were by Thomas Dance and James Spacek and both came out in ‘91. They’re both available but pricey. Charlie Petty’s book is listed as available, but costs more than I paid for HD Military pistols back in the day! :shock:

The early paperback was by Leyson and it too is still floating around, though it too has gotten kind of spendy.

I may have to dig out my copies to sell and help cover my next gun purchase (or maybe my next couple of mortgage payments!)

Froggie

[Drm50]

I had a buddy looking for HD Mil parts and he bought B parts by mistake. I had them up for sale but have decided to keep them for trade against HD Parts. I think the B parts would be harder to come by.

[PBSmith]

Thanks, all, for your highly informative posts. I had no idea the item under discussion had such a long and involved history.

After reading all the posts, I am inclined to wait until I can examine one of the HD Militaries in the cold flesh before shelling out the current asking prices on the web.

This is taking the thread astray, but if any of you have owned and used the Colt Woodsman, I'd be curious to learn your opinions and preferences in comparing the Colt with the HD Military. I'd have a personal preference for the exposed hammer myself, but other more important considerations could over-ride the hammer matter.

[contender1]

As we can see, a LOT of EXCELLENT info on HS semi-autos here.

PBSmith, I have owned a Colt Woodsman,, and while it was an excellent pistol, I let it live with someone else who truly wanted & appreciated them. I have kept my HS pistols though.
And while your preferences are for an exposed hammer,, (such as the HD,) I have found the later models, with an internal hammer, AND the ability to swap barrels, weights etc much nicer. It was what made me allow the Colt to move & the HS's to stay home.

[Green Frog]

Thanks, all, for your highly informative posts. I had no idea the item under discussion had such a long and involved history.

After reading all the posts, I am inclined to wait until I can examine one of the HD Militaries in the cold flesh before shelling out the current asking prices on the web.

This is taking the thread astray, but if any of you have owned and used the Colt Woodsman, I'd be curious to learn your opinions and preferences in comparing the Colt with the HD Military. I'd have a personal preference for the exposed hammer myself, but other more important considerations could over-ride the hammer matter.

Between my late father and myself we owned a couple of dozen High Standards from early to late examples and only one (very) early Woodsman. I found the early HS models far superior in all respects to the Colt. The Colt has a reputation based on its name that the gun fails to fulfill. JMHO,YMMV.

Froggie

[rintinglen]

In contra-distinction from Green Frog, I am a fan of the Colt Woodsman. (See image at left, :wink:) At least, the pre-war versions. In my experience, the Colt's were/are more reliable than their contemporary High Standards, but after WWII, the Colts were left behind by the later HS guns, the Citations, Victors and all the rest, which were heavier and benefited from having the rear sights solidly connected to the barrel, not the slide. Claims of excellence for the various A and B models can be taken with a modest heaping of salt.
A Victor I once owned was the most accurate semi-auto pistol I have ever fired. None of my Colts can come close to that. However, I personally prefer the feel of the Colts, and at least in the ones I own or have owned, the Colts are more reliable. Plus, when I am strolling through the woods, a "Woodsman" seems more appropriate than a "Supermatic."

[thxmrgarand]

At a gun show last year I saw a not-for-sale HD Military that had a Volquartson (sp?) barrel. The owner said she also has the original barrel which could be easily re-installed. Since the replacement barrel allows a red-dot sight, which my eyes now require at indoor ranges, I have been looking for one of those barrels but without any luck so far. I must have half a dozen or more target .22 pistols but the HD Military is at least equal to any of them, and with an exposed hammer it is best for dry firing. I bought it at a garage sale, but with the interest it generated at that sale I did not pay a garage sale price. However, the pistol has served me much better than would have been the case had I kept the money.

[Drm50]

I was into target pistols in 70s. I had HI-STD, Colt. Brn, S&W and a Ruger MK-1. Now I have owned many field pistols in these makes but I’m talking target grade guns only. The guns were bought new and for all practical purposed were the same quality, which was high at the time. The Colt Woodsman Match, High Standard and Browning are very similar pistols. My favorite of these three was the Brn Olympic Medalist. This was strictly a carry to the range match gun. I only had the one Colt and I did kinda like it for carry in the woods. I got HI-STD fever and had a small collection of them. All these were fine pistols and I don’t think you can go wrong with any of them. Today all I
have is two HD-Mil and S&W 41 which is my favorite target pistol of all. The field model guns of the same period are on same scale except for HI STDs. As much as I liked their line the Duramatics were functional but not the most accurate. Of all these makers line of 22 pistols they were bottom shelf. I think it was an attempt at getting share of low end market that Ruger had sewed up with their Standard going for $37.50 at the time. The other models were all milled, the Ruger was of welded construction and Duramatics were kind of hybrid.

[Tokarev]

My observations from HS Sharpshooter:
HS firing pin has a tendency to break.
The mainspring weakens considerably over 15000-50000 rounds.
Grips are somewhat fragile.

[Green Frog]

ringtinglen, the first handgun I ever shot was a like-new Model B with type II takedown... it later became part of my collection once Dad knew it would be something I would be keeping. Although I’ve sold off most of my collection, I kept the B and a C as well as a special built HE bullseye gun. Dad got a very early Woodsman back in the early eighties... mechanically great but blue challenged. It was lovingly restored (don’t scream, it was in bad shape) and I was able to compare the Woodsman and the Model B side by side. As far as function and accuracy, they were about even, so it might be my background, but I found the B to be a lot easier to disassemble, clean, and reassemble. It may have just been a matter of familiarity, but that was my experience with them. BTW, I wonder how many folks know early Woodsman and High Standard Model B guns can take the same magazines?

Froggie

[biffj]

After working on a lot of HD military's over the years and building suppressed HDM replicas with quite a few my observation has been that the push button on top of the slide and the associated sheet metal piece that keeps the mainspring back for takedown is the biggest problem. Guys don't know how to take them down and these parts get damaged making it tough to get the pistols apart. In damaging those parts it can go on to screw with the mainspring retainer too so it won't be held. Not something you can see without hands on though.

A lot of these guns are pretty worn but seem to hold up ok. My thoughts on the ammo are that high velocity is fine and standard velocity is ok. Subsonics rarely function properly but you can use them if you want. Don't shoot the Hyper velocity as it is much hotter than the high vel stuff. I'm talking about the Velociters, stingers and such as that. I've seen damage done to the stop block with this ammo in just a short time. The 60gr SSS Aquila ammo isn't very good either. It has a greater recoil impulse than normal subsonics because the bullet is so heavy and the rifling twist rate for the bullet needs to be faster than the 1-16 that is standard on most 22LR. The 60gr needs 1-9 to be stable. With no suppressor its just an annoyance but if you're using suppressors it can damage the baffles as the bullets wobble or tumble out of the barrel.

I love the pistols. They are fun to shoot, accurate and have very pleasing weight and lines. I like the model B as well, and even the rest of the line....must have a gun problem.

Frank

[Mytmousemalibu]

My dad had one a long time ago that we used to plink with that had one heck of a personal story. As longtime classic car nuts and collectors we had I think a 41' Pontiac sedan when I was a kiddo. I was working on it with my dad one day and discovered a grease & oil soaked pocket knife in the curled lip of the engine crossmember. Someone ages ago dropped it and never found it. It had solidified into the thick, oily buildup all the years till discovered. Upon cleaning, it turn out to be an old Remington, pearl handled switchblade! The grease and oil had perfectly preserved it, it still had the faint Remington silkscreening or etching on the blade. I would rather we kept the knife but dad traded it for the HD Military. Now I don't have either. Unfortunately shooting it a long time ago the thumb spur of the hammer had cracked and been flung off firing it and it was lost in the leaf litter before anyone noticed. Never did find a replacement hammer for it.