Time for a reline?

[seetrout]

I picked up an old Winchester 92 a few months ago and finally got everything I needed to make some .25-20 ammo.
Did some research here and followed a link to an excellent post on the .25-20 M.O. forum.
Ran a bunch of patches through it to clean it up and hit the range. Looking for a decent shooting load with the RCBS 85gr CB bullet.
3.5 gr of TB was nice and quiet, averaged 1042fps. 3.3 gr Universal came in at 1138fps and 3.0 at 1059fps.
I was at disappointed with the accuracy. Then I noticed that all of the holes were crisp on one side and a bit elongated on the other.
Ran a bronze brush through it and got lead shavings.
After brushing the lead out and and then some I looked through it and it does NOT look like the inside of my .38-40, although it's harder to look through that little hole.
I think the bore is pooched. Here's a couple of crappy pics, but they're the best I could get.

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[Bad Ass Wallace]

What diameter boolits are you loading? I use an 80gn sized to 0.258" with excellent results. I found RCBS casts too small!

[seetrout]

Just mic'd a dozen. Most are .263, but a couple were skinny at .262. Didn't even think about the as cast diameter since I haven't sized a cast bullet in a couple of years. I just cast em and shoot em. I think these are plenty fat to fill the bore unless its....

[missionary5155]

Good Morning
We have a couple early 1900 92s that wish they had a bore that looks that nice...
Did you measure the groove diameter of this barrel ? How about the throat / lead area ?
Did you do a good cleaning until a clean patch would show no more residue from 1930 ?
What is the largest diameter slug that will fit into a piece of unsized / fired brass ?
What diameter cast were you shooting ? What lead mix are you loading ?
These are the basic questions that need be investigated before we actually start shooting lead ...

This is the basic routine we go through with all our lever rifles before we think about launching cast..

[seetrout]

Dayum dude. Talk about harshing my mellow.


Good Morning
We have a couple early 1900 92s that wish they had a bore that looks that nice...
Did you measure the groove diameter of this barrel ? Uh...no. The very thought of trying to pound a slug through the barrel without destroying something makes me want to paint the house
How about the throat / lead area ?How the heck are you supposed to do that without disassembling the rifle so you can pound the slug in 1" from the breach and then back out?
Did you do a good cleaning until a clean patch would show no more residue from 1930 ?I did now, but not before I shot it
What is the largest diameter slug that will fit into a piece of unsized / fired brass ?I'll have to get back to you on that one
What diameter cast were you shooting ? .262 to .263"
What lead mix are you loading ?At the recommendations of the post on the other forum I am using WW+1%tin quenched
These are the basic questions that need be investigated before we actually start shooting lead ...

This is the basic routine we go through with all our lever rifles before we think about launching cast..

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello seetrout,

Have you tried shooting a jacketed bullet?
I have a 1893 Marlin in 32-40, it would keyhole cast but shot jacketed good.
I simply made my bullets harder, and it shoots pretty good now.

AntiqueSledMan.

[indian joe]

Its a bottleneck case those pistol speed powders might not be best choice - Maybe try some 4227 - 8 or 9 grains should get about 1250FPS (guessing that). I run 11 grains in mine under a 75 grain jacket slug but its a little savage bolt gun - might take pressure a little better ? (might not either?) . Had a 92 but only had a 65grain mold for it - got bored one day and turned that one into a 38/40...................

[seetrout]

Using my calipers a the muzzle I get .258 across the lands and .259.5 across the bore. Probably actually .260. The best I can get my eyes to focus with the close up readers it looks like there is more rifling left in the bore than at the muzzle. The only .25-20 jacketed I can find anywhere are the Hornady 60's. Remington still makes the 87gr ammo, but doesn't sell the components.

[flyin brian]

I've been playing with 25-20 for quite a while and it has been one of the most frustrating cartridges for cast, IMO. I was buying the Speer 75g J-word and those things would shoot great...then try any of my other test rounds of cast and they would give me a 10" group at 50 yds. I finally had one relined...the one with the worst bore was a Marlin 1894 so that was the chosen one. Happy to report it shoots cast excellent...so I'm convinced the bore condition is a huge factor with this cartridge and cast.

[seetrout]

What is the largest diameter slug that will fit into a piece of unsized / fired brass ?

Ejecting the rounds puts a pretty good dent in the case mouths. After I used the flaring die to round the case mouth I can just push an unsized/lubed .263 dia bullet into the case. When I pull it back out I get a real nice suction 'pop' when the bullet comes free.

OD of the case necks on fired brass in .280", OD on resized, ready to load brass is .274".

[missionary5155]

One item do not overlook is that a too tight of a resized neck an and will resize you cast slug.
Some fine member here wrote about that issue years back and helped me alot with a 1897 made Win model 94 in 38-55 that gave great area coverage at 50 yards. Sometimes there are all sorts of issues why a rifle will not shoot cast. The question is are we willing to keep at it.
Mike in LLama Land

[ulav8r]

Ejecting the rounds puts a pretty good dent in the case mouths. After I used the flaring die to round the case mouth I can just push an unsized/lubed .263 dia bullet into the case. When I pull it back out I get a real nice suction 'pop' when the bullet comes free.

OD of the case necks on fired brass in .280", OD on resized, ready to load brass is .274".

Try ejecting the case very slowly to reduce damage, just to get a couple to measure as-fired mouth diameter.

[seetrout]

Hmmm.
I would think water quenched WW would be hard enough to expand the case necks, but it's def worth a try. Maybe Ill try decapping some with a universal decapper and load as fired. If that changes things I can probably have the shop guys at work open up the neck on the sizing die for me. With the light loads I might even get 2 or 3 loads without needing to FL resize.

Ejecting slowly...I would probably have to physically hold the brass down until it clears the chamber. This things throws brass like no lever I've ever seen. Even when I open the lever slowly to keep the brass relatively close it will bounce them off the bottom of roof at the firing point.

[enfield]

That bore isn't so bad, you can actually see rifling. Mine was like a bad shotgun barrel. working on reboring to 32-30 , trying to figure out how to ream it smooth at the moment.

[LtFrankDrebbin]

In all my 92 Winchester 25-20 shooting, the fast pistol powders don't go well with 85gr RCBS bullets. They will key hole! 6 grains of 4227 and a little dacron filler is about the best charge for them. However they will still print a slight yaw despite good grouping.
Fast powders do go well with 80 grain bullets or lighter.
The 25-20 doesn't like a lot of bullet lube either. Too heavy a coating of Lee Alox or if both groves are filled you will get a lot of flyers.

[ulav8r]

Ejecting slowly...I would probably have to physically hold the brass down until it clears the chamber. This things throws brass like no lever I've ever seen. Even when I open the lever slowly to keep the brass relatively close it will bounce them off the bottom of roof at the firing point.

But you would only have to do it a couple of times to get brass to measure for fired case mouth ID.

[john.k]

If the rifling within one inch of the muzzle is gone ,it will not shoot accurately .....and with old guns this is the common area for damage with rods ,pullthru s ,and insect deposits ...and be very wary of hammering slugs thru the bore ......I dont know how many old guns Ive seen where there is a gouge inside the muzzle where piece of steel has gone crooked trying "to slug the barrel,just like they said I should on XYZ forum"

[uscra112]

There's a guy in the ASSRA who shoots phenomenal benchrest scores using cast bullets in a single shot. If memory serves, he's using AA4100 powder. Others are using AA#9.

Shooting .263 bullets unsized may be creating "fins" of displaced metal at the base, which will cause all kinds of grief. As the bullet exits, the gas behind it can make the bullet tip and shoot wild.

My .02 worth. I only shoot .25-20 Stevens. Don't have a .25-20 WCF.

[seetrout]

Getting back to business here after taking some time off to play with a flintlock.

I got the cast boolits to shoot without leading using a 90% charge of Trail Boss.
Using a tree or deck post to steady up, it shoots minute of groundhog @ 50yds and some of the holes are almost round. Some not so much.
Holding a Hornady 60gr bullet in my fingers, I can insert it into the muzzle up to the cannelure before it touches anything.

Given the overall good condition of the rifle I hate to devalue it with a reline. On the other hand I buy rifles to shoot, not to be "art". BUT...minute of groundhog for a rifle that's 102 years old ain't half bad. BUT...only if i shoot jacketed or anemic loads....

Decisions, decisions.

Mike, my wife was born and grew up halfway between Santa Cruz and Cochabamba.

[uscra112]

Based on my experience with a rough old Stevens .25-20, hard cast gas-check bullets may work with more aggressive loading. Don't know what you have for powders, but I'd be looking at the magnum pistol powders like Blue Dot, AA#9, 2400, etc., loaded to 1600 to 1800 fps. Downside for me was that they ricochet like crazy. But then so do most jacketed .25 caliber bullets.

[pietro]

I noticed that all of the holes were crisp on one side and a bit elongated on the other.

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Another reason for boolits keyholing would be muzzle/rifling issues.

I would first re-crown the muzzle & test fire.

If that doesn't do the trick, the barrel (and it's original markings) can be saved via making a recessed rifling crown in a counterbore drilled an inch or so down the barrel to remove the damaged rifling.


.

[john.k]

Trouble is collectors are nowdays just as horrified by a small counterbore ,as by a reline......a good reline,and it will take a magnifying glass to see the join at the muzzle.

[seetrout]

I don't get the value placed on the original bore in a rifle like this. It is a very nice example to be sure, except for the bore. It is not a 1, 2, 3, 4 or even a 5 digit serial number. It is not an evolutionary model like the 1908 predecessor to the 1911 I once saw in a display case before it went to auction. It is not a prototype that lost out like the .277 Pederson I saw in the display case next to the 1908 pistol. It's a working rifle, serial number approaching a half million, out of over a million produced. Placing it around 1908? While 25-20 is the rarest caliber (218's are actually relabeled model 53's?) I still have a hard time relinquishing it to wallhanger status. Looking at gunbroker I see a bunch of 92's in 25-20 with high prices...and no bids. Looks like they sell for about $1k or less.

[uscra112]

Just musing upon my own reaction to seeing rifle models I collect that aren't totally original. I shun refinished metal like the plague. Especially overdone color case hardening and highly polished blueing of receivers that were never blued in the first place. Close second are guns whose wood has been polyurethaned. (It happens) I'm actually attracted by wood that has been cleaned and tastefully re-oiled, and by well-done liner jobs where the original caliber is preserved. so there's no new stamping on the barrel. Best of all possible worlds; a gun that looks used but well cared for, and shoots like new.

[Rrusse111]

Gents, I know Redman and John Taylor do great relining, unfortunately both are swamped with work. Redman's liners are only recommended for pistol calibers, whereas TJ liners are hammer forged chromalloy, and he offers them in a variety of twists for rifles. I have a 25-36 and 38-55 TD barrels that are in need of refurbishment. Any recommendations for either liner type or someone experienced and capable of doing the work?
Cheers!

[rbuck351]

I have a 1921 made 92 in 25/20 that has been beat to death on the outside but tight action. The barrel although is not a sewer pipe is certainly not pristine. I use the Lyman 65gr boolit cast from wcww, with check and lubed weighs 73grs. My best load is with 9.5grs of 2400 and spp for 1930 fps and 1.5" at 85yds. The spp makes quite a bit of difference in that little case with both accuracy and velocity.

You my not have enough speed to stabilize the 85gr. I have been working with an NOE 85gr boolit that is showing good results with 11.1gr of H116 which I believe to be the same powder (or very close) as Accurate 1680. Velocity is around 1900.
I have tried several powders mostly with the 73gr boolit and accuracy seems to be best at close to 1900fps and goes away much over that.

To me the 92 Win in 25/20 is about the ultimate walkabout rifle for small game and as ugly as mine is, we will depart company when I depart life. That being said, collector value meaning little to me, I would reline it. The only exception to that would be if I could sell your rifle for enough to buy a noncollectable grade with a very good bore or have it relined and have money left over. I get guns to shoot not as wallhangers. When they are too pretty to carry in the field they become useless to me.
With yours I would try a lot of different loads to see if I could get it to shoot good enough. If not, then reline.