Woops

[metricmonkeywrench]

Friday the weather was great so off to the range. Had a grand ole time with a .38, wrestled through an anemic 9mm load that would not cycle my M&P but the trouble started when I pulled out the .357 SAA. This was my first load with AA #7 under a 156g gas checked bullet. Loaded up the six and the first round didn’t feel right, Way too powerful with a pretty good muzzle flip. Went to pull the hammer back to the loading notch to upload and look at the brass, and the gun was tied up hard. Luckily I was able to get the base pin out and work the cylinder out. The 5 remaining rounds fell right out and somewhere along the way the primer fell out of the fired case which was well stuck in the cylinder. Back in the range bag for the trip home. The case was stuck pretty good but punched out out of the cylinder with a good sharp rap. So far as I can tell the gun survived the encounter, nothing looks cracked, broken or bent.

In the post analysis, I broke down some of the remaining remaining rounds In the box and found 17g of #7 not the expected 10. Not sure how I did that!!! I generally double check powder loads using my trusty 5-10 and an electronic scale to confirm

The only thing I can figure is that my process was interrupted by something like the wife, dog, grandkid, phone and so on and I missed the confirm powder dump setting on either my Uniflow or Lyman 55.

[Winger Ed.]

It's easy to do.
When I have a interruption while loading, I get up and walk away from the bench.

[Neverhome]

4 kids still at home here. I do most of my prep stuff in front of the tv but when it’s time for powder I sequester myself someplace private. Stupid Great Dane tail is NO help either.

[rintinglen]

I once had to pull nearly 200 357 cartridges because HP-38 canisters looked the same as H-110 canisters. At the time. all my reloading was done with 5 powders, and each was in a completely different container. WW-231 in a 4 pound jug for most pistol cartridges, Unique in a round cardboard container for my 44 Spl., H-110 in a small, 1 lb, round, plastic container for Magnum stuff, WW-748 in a rectangular plastic bottle for 30-30" and 308's and IMR4350 in a maroon metal can for my -06. All was well until a friendly neighbor gave me some of her Dad's reloading stuff that he could no longer use. Lead, a mold, a case trimmer, and a nearly full container of HP-38. A round, plastic, one pound container. So, I had a batch of empty 357 brass and some Gas-checked RCBS 162 grain SWC's raring to go. 15.7 grains of H-110 was THE load for that boolit, with a CCI 550 Small pistol primer to set things off. I grabbed the small, round, black plastic, 1 lb. bottle off of my powder shelf and proceeded to fill my powder measure and set to loading, carefully checking every 10th round or so to make sure I was getting the right amount, but it was metering wonderfully well and not a hiccup was noticed. At length, every case was full, every bullet was seated and a stout crimp in place to insure complete combustion, so it was time to clean up. My practice then and now is to only have one canister of powder on the bench at a time, so I unscrewed the powder measure and lifted it to pour the unused powder back into the container. The one with the yellow and white label that said "HP-38."

I was momentarily flabbergasted. Then I remembered putting away the gifts my kindly neighbor had given me, including the powder, the powder which now was nestled under my carefully, cast, sized and gas-checked boolits in quantities more than double the maximum recommended for a booloit that size and weight. I am grateful I caught it then, but it took me the rest of my free time that weekend to break down those rounds. All of the gas checks separated from the bullets and had to be tipped with a screw driver and pulled out with a pair of needle nose pliers. I learned two valuable lessons. 1st, double check your powder, and your powder charge from your source before setting out, and second, use crimp-on gas-checks.;)

Be careful and stay safe.

[Burnt Fingers]

I have CFE Pistol, CFE Black, and CFE 223 powders in my inventory.

I'm VERY careful which powder I pull off the shelf.

[megasupermagnum]

I have CFE Pistol, CFE Black, and CFE 223 powders in my inventory.

I'm VERY careful which powder I pull off the shelf.

I never did like the way Hodgdon named powders. I hate that there are 4 versions of clays powder. Clays, International Clays, Universal Clays, and Alliant makes Clay dot. All four distinctly different.

[LUBEDUDE]

I never did like the way Hodgdon named powders. I hate that there are 4 versions of clays powder. Clays, International Clays, Universal Clays, and Alliant makes Clay dot. All four distinctly different.

I agree 100%! I brought that up to someone at Hodgdon’s. His reply was, “nobody complains about Red/Blue/Green Dot powders”.

I tried to explain to him that most people are visual as opposed to aurel for memory. That’s why highlighters come in colors, and people color code almost everything. He would not concede and he held to his guns.

[Burnt Fingers]

I never did like the way Hodgdon named powders. I hate that there are 4 versions of clays powder. Clays, International Clays, Universal Clays, and Alliant makes Clay dot. All four distinctly different.

At least they changed the labels.

Now it's Clays, Universal Clays Technology and International Clays Technology. In each case the Universal and International are in larger letters than the Clays Technology.

Clay Dot can't be blamed on Hodgdon.

There's also IMR Red, Blue, and Green

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I recently posted how I read my scale wrong and set it for 10.3 gr. instead of 13 gr. I’ve used that scale primarily since 1978. Dah me. My loading process involves throwing ten and weighing them. 10 x 13 was 130 when I was in school. I was getting 103 gr. Took me a while to untangle where the problem was.

I was loading some AA #5 in .45 Colt recently and noted the small powder dose was down at the bottom of the case where it was hard to see. If AA #9 is also a low loft powder, then wouldn’t it be harder to see in the .38 which is smaller case? I don’t have any experience with it personally.

This is why they developed Unique powder in the first place, the old Bullseye was too easily double charged.

[Biggin]

I'm not gonna say I'm perfect cuz I could screw up the next time I load something. However thrre is reason why I don't get around to loading as much anymore. It's like riding a motorcycle or flying a plane if my head ain't in it I don't load. Simple as that.

[onelight]

Sure glad she held the pressure .
I would check where the cylinder is cut for the locking bolt I have seen a 45 colt with enough of a dimple Inside that a fired case could not be ejected without a hammer and a drift .

[metricmonkeywrench]

I got real lucky, been over the frame and cylinder and just don’t see anything telling. I don’t have a ball gauge set but a fired case from a different box rattles around pretty much the same in all 6 cylinders. I didn’t have the foresight to mark the effected cylinder. I’m beginning to believe since it was a 357 on the P frame it survived an Elmer Keith level load....

My last check will be cylinder gap once I get everything scrubbed down to get an accurate reading and find the specs, may not be a good check though as I don’t have a before measurement.

Then it’s off to the range to shoot something proper.

[osteodoc08]

I had similar happen to my 586. Shot one and recoil was fierce and stung my hand. Cylinder swing out normal but used a dowel to pop the offending casing out. Weighed the rest of the batch and all appropriate charge. Don’t know if one bridged in the Dillon 550 or what. Those were all scraped.

Stay ever vigilant my friends.

[gwpercle]

When the fired primer falls out of the pocket and you have to drive the fired case out the chamber with a rod....sure sign of just a wee bit too much powder ... might want to back that load down.

I did that in my ignorant youth but luckily the Ruger Blackhawk was built heck for stout ... I shot all 6 !!!
Gary

[Art in Colorado]

i never did like the way hodgdon named powders. I hate that there are 4 versions of clays powder. Clays, international clays, universal clays, and alliant makes clay dot. All four distinctly different.

amen brother!!

[metricmonkeywrench]

Welp final update, though everything looks fine I did bulge the cylinder a wee bit. Went out to the range today to check out the gun and a new mid range load. Everything moves correctly and it locks up tight but when I went to eject all but the one dropped easily and I had to lean on the ejector pretty good to get the shell out.

So for now I have a five shooter. Guess I’ll have to mark that one as the SAA “skip one” empty cylinder for the hammer to fall on until I decide to replace it.

[cp1969]

I would not use that cylinder any more.

[cp1969]

I had similar happen to my 586. Shot one and recoil was fierce and stung my hand. Cylinder swing out normal but used a dowel to pop the offending casing out. Weighed the rest of the batch and all appropriate charge. Don’t know if one bridged in the Dillon 550 or what. Those were all scraped.

Stay ever vigilant my friends.

I had the same thing happen with a supposedly <1000 fps WW231 load in a Redhawk. Never did find out what happened.

[uscra112]

I'd make a tight-fitting wooden plug to fill that chamber, to make it impossible to forget which one to not load. :smile:

[Alferd Packer]

I recently posted how I read my scale wrong and set it for 10.3 gr. instead of 13 gr. I’ve used that scale primarily since 1978. Dah me. My loading process involves throwing ten and weighing them. 10 x 13 was 130 when I was in school. I was getting 103 gr. Took me a while to untangle where the problem was.

I was loading some AA #5 in .45 Colt recently and noted the small powder dose was down at the bottom of the case where it was hard to see. If AA #9 is also a low loft powder, then wouldn’t it be harder to see in the .38 which is smaller case? I don’t have any experience with it personally.

This is why they developed Unique powder in the first place, the old Bullseye was too easily double charged.
Unique powder was developed first if I remember right.
Then bullseye was the fines that were left when they screened Unique to get out the powder dust and pieces of Unique that were smaller than the size Unique needed to be to burn uniformly.
They then canned up all the fines and measured its burning rate finding it much faster of course.
They found it worked as a pistol target powder and named it Bullseye.
It was way too fast for shotgun powder or rifle powder.
Worked well in .45 acp and.25acp as well as .32acp and even
.38 special, but only enough for target velocity. Double charge would fit easy and destroy the pistol.
Unique was better for .38 pistol and .44 and .45 Colt.
I read that somewhere years ago in an old book about the Laflin and Rand powder company.
Anyone else read that book?

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Somewhere way back I learned to have only 1 powder on my bench at a time. But that is just one of the ways you can screw up.

[Alferd Packer]

I had the same thing happen with a supposedly <1000 fps WW231 load in a Redhawk. Never did find out what happened.
Anymore, when powder has been sitting I roll the canister and turn it end for end to break up the powder clumps.
I have also poured it into a mixing bowl and ran a couple spaced apart wooden chopsticks to check for clumps.
That's why you want to weigh ALL magnum load charges because of bridging in powder measure unless you check for clumps beforehand and vett the powder to your satisfaction.
A powder baffle can be added to your powder measure also to help.
There are baffles made for and sold by the powder measure makers online.
Some have already been selling the measures with the baffle included.
It can be dumped out and lost if it's not fixed into the measure.
Really this stuff is in the reloading manual if you take time to read it before reloading.
All manuals are different, but the more you read, the more you know.

[mew]

No such thing as "a wee bit" when it comes to a bulged cylinder. And to use your train of thought (which I would not) you don't have a "5" shooter, you have a 3 shooter. You have no way of knowing, other than whether or not there are sticking cases, how much the two adjoining cylinders were stressed. Sticking cases means it was bulged pretty bad.

Simple math. AA Load data says 10.1 is max for a 158gr Lead bullet and produces 33228 psi. So taking it up to 35000psi (not recommended) would be 10.6 for 35000 psi. The charge you fired was real close to being 62% over that max. Just running this out says real close to 56000 psi. These are just ball park/simple figures and do not take a lot of variables that could push those numbers some into account and doing the math in my head. Bottom line, at the least you made Elmer Keith say "wow!"

You already know you bulged the cylinder. That is a huge deal. Unless you have the appropriate gages, you can't tell the impact to the chambers adjoining the one that got the OMG test. You also can't tell if the frame is still square. Just because things still rotate doesn't mean it hasn't been impacted. I inspected a S&W M10 that was so out of square you could see it and it still rotated just fine. Wasn't dumb enough to try and shoot it but I suspect it would have gone bang. And going bang does not mean it is safe. Once the steel has been stretched to a point specific to its properties, it weakens.

I'll rely on my many years of being around firearms and my education and training as a S&W Revolver Armorer to say there is no responsible or ethical way to justify using that firearm until it was checked out and at a minimum the cylinder replaced. You place yourself at risk and everyone on the firing line doing anything else.

It's a Colt SAA. A great firearm and worth the expense of fixing. Put it in a box and send it to Colt or a reputable Colt repair facility and get it squared away. The money you spend will make you focus more on your loading process and go a long way in ensuring the safety of your grandkids who may inherit it.

Process, Process, Process. Absolutely nothing interrupts charging cases. Well, maybe if the house is burning down. Phones and doorbells don't get answered. No one gets attention and there are no kids or dogs in the room. That won't guarantee you won't make a mistake but it reduces the risk a whole bunch.

[gwpercle]

Although I'm not normally an anal or OCD person ... I soon discovered it is perfectly OK to be both anal and OCD when it comes to getting the correct type powder , the correct amount of powder and getting one , not two or zero charges, in each case .
This is the one part of reloading that must be done correctly , call me anal , call me OCD but I have a system where I check , double check and then triple check every charge before the boolit gets seated . Takes a little extra time but you can't be too careful .
Gary

[Burnt Fingers]

No such thing as "a wee bit" when it comes to a bulged cylinder. And to use your train of thought (which I would not) you don't have a "5" shooter, you have a 3 shooter. You have no way of knowing, other than whether or not there are sticking cases, how much the two adjoining cylinders were stressed. Sticking cases means it was bulged pretty bad.

Simple math. AA Load data says 10.1 is max for a 158gr Lead bullet and produces 33228 psi. So taking it up to 35000psi (not recommended) would be 10.6 for 35000 psi. The charge you fired was real close to being 62% over that max. Just running this out says real close to 56000 psi. These are just ball park/simple figures and do not take a lot of variables that could push those numbers some into account and doing the math in my head. Bottom line, at the least you made Elmer Keith say "wow!"



Powder pressures aren't linear. You could easily get to the point where the next .1 gr increases pressure by 40% instead of the expected 10%.

[rondog]

Back when I picked up reloading again, my grandson was pretty young. I was showing him how I loaded .45acp's, then I shut the Lee powder measure off and we left the bench.

Later on, grandson decided he'd help Ol' Grandpa out and made some more ammo for me. With the powder measure off. That cost me a couple of 1911 barrels.

[Mr_Sheesh]

If kids are about, or adults who'd "help" like that, I'd suggest padlocking your press or a locking loading room door; Could save your bacon.

[uscra112]

Elmer would have said "Hell, I did that half a dozen times!"

[keyhole]

Somewhere way back I learned to have only 1 powder on my bench at a time. But that is just one of the ways you can screw up.

Absolutely true, having multiple powders on the reloading bench invites some type of screw up.
Similarly, on your shooting bench only have one gun uncased and only ammo correct for it. Multiple calibers on your bench can be a disaster too. A little off topic, but a gun club friend had .308 Win and .25-06 ammo on his shooting bench. He inadvertently chambered a .308 Win cartridge in his beautiful .25-06 Sako. The .308 chambered without difficulty but absolutely destroyed the rifle when fired. He was a very experienced reloader and shooter, but one moment of inattention was all it took. He was not injured fortunately.

[uscra112]

Shotgunners know (or should know) of the "12-20" blowup. A 20 gage shell will drop into a 12 gage chamber far enough that a 12 gage shell can be chambered behind it.

[mew]

Powder pressures aren't linear. You could easily get to the point where the next .1 gr increases pressure by 40% instead of the expected 10%.

Yes sir … that's why I clarified with "simple math" and "ball park/simple figures and do not take a lot of variables that could push those numbers some." Something one can do by just looking at what the projections AA gives with their loading data. I ran this load through Quick Load and it indicates pressures in the mid 60k. Although, I don't have the specific data to the bullet that was used. Bottom line is this load put that cylinder under pressures way, way over max for .357 magnum. Plain luck it didn't come apart.

[mew]

Elmer would have said "Hell, I did that half a dozen times!"

In Elmer's day things were totally different. Testing to failure was more or less accepted. In todays world, we all have to be mindful of the hobby/sport we love and enjoy. This country is full of anti-gun people who do nothing but look for things to make headlines out of. I can read it now; "Colt Revolver Blows Up" or in this case; "Local Range Allows Shooters to Use Damaged Firearms."

We all have to be aware that our actions have the potential to reap attention we never intended. The last thing we need is more negative publicity.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Unique powder was developed first if I remember right.
Then bullseye was the fines that were left when they screened Unique to get out the powder dust and pieces of Unique that were smaller than the size Unique needed to be to burn uniformly.
They then canned up all the fines and measured its burning rate finding it much faster of course.
They found it worked as a pistol target powder and named it Bullseye.
It was way too fast for shotgun powder or rifle powder.
Worked well in .45 acp and.25acp as well as .32acp and even
.38 special, but only enough for target velocity. Double charge would fit easy and destroy the pistol.
Unique was better for .38 pistol and .44 and .45 Colt.
I read that somewhere years ago in an old book about the Laflin and Rand powder company.
Anyone else read that book?



According to Terry Weiland Unique was developed in 1899 and is our second oldest powder. The only powder that is older is Bullseye. Handloader June 2019

I cannot find the article where I read that Unique was developed because they wanted a powder with less risk of a double charge. The higher loft Unique could make a double charge visibly noticeable.

The Army Ordnance Dept gave Unique and Bullseye three letter designators. I cannot find a printed article on this right now. From memory the three letter designator for Bullseye was something like RPS for something like revolver powder standard. Unique’s three letter designator was something like RPI for revolver powder improved.

[JerryCan]

One time I loaded up a box of 454 casull, I used the right powder, max loads I had loaded many times.
A week later I loaded up my Freedom Arms with 4 5/8 barrel. The first round kicked so hard I cut the web between my thumb and trigger finger. Plus my trigger finger hit the trigger guard so hard I almost thought I broke my finger.
After administering first aid to myself and cleaning my blood from my gun, I started dissecting the rounds. They were supposed to be about 5% below max and they actually fluctuated between 15% over.

Long story short, ceiling fan, when setting up my powder the ceiling fan was blowing on it.

I will say, the primer was flat as a pancake and had even flowed into the firing pin hole a bit. I sent it to FA to inspect it, with a thorough explanation of my stupid mistake. It sustained zero damage, still use that gun today.

[mickbr]

I agree 100%! I brought that up to someone at Hodgdon’s. His reply was, “nobody complains about Red/Blue/Green Dot powders”.

I tried to explain to him that most people are visual as opposed to aurel for memory. That’s why highlighters come in colors, and people color code almost everything. He would not concede and he held to his guns.

Its not a good analogy by the hodgon guy because clays is a name by itself yet also a word in the other powders. Like if Alliant powders were called "Dot, green dot and blue dot".

We dont have the problem luckily. Clays is made here and is called As-30N, Universal is AP-70N, we now have As-30N being replaced by AP350, and also a new powder Ap450. No idea what Hodgon will label them over there.

[smithnframe]

I don't "generally" check the powder charge.......I ALWAYS check the powder charge!

[rintinglen]

Bullseye was originally made of screenings from Laflin and Rand Infallible Smokeless Shotgun powder. It was introduced in 1898, while Unique was introduced in 1900. However, the powder we know and love today as Bullseye is actually descended from 1904's "Bullseye #2", specially formulated and manufactured as a formulation in its own, not just smaller bits of another powder. It was the powder used in the military 45 ACP from its development in 1905 on up through at least the Korean War, and perhaps beyond.
Phil Sharpe has several paragraphs on this development in his Complete Guide to Handloading (1937). George C. Nonte also reports this in his tome on reloading but I suspect he was merely quoting Sharpe.