Calibrate Scales

[DeanoBeanCounter]

I have two scales. One electronic and one balance beam. At lower weights such as for handgun loads they both show about the same weight. At higher loads such as for rifle loads they both are way different. The balance beam says 57 grains and the electronic says 64.8 grains. I use the electronic for rifle loads for safety. The question is, is there a way to determine which is right? Is there a weight kit to check them with (without breaking the bank)? Thoughts, suggestions, comments, ect. would be of great help.
Thanks
Dean

[nueces5]

To verify the veracity of a balance, I use a sierra matchking of known weight.
I have never been disappointed.

[dragon813gt]

Buy a check weight set. There’s a few available tailored to reloaders. You have no way of knowing if your scale works w/out it. And you need to check across the entire range.

[country gent]

As Dragon813gt said buy a set of the lyman or rcbs check weights. Better buy 2. I used them not only to verify a scales but to check settings and right at the weight desired. These are the same as the master for a micrometer or set off pin gauges.

Your 64 grns example would be 50 grn weight 10 grn weight and 4 grn weight in the pan. Its not hard start at the lower numbers if there are .000 those first. so 64.3 1.3 grn = 63 grns 3 grn weight = 60 grns left 10 grn weight = 50 grns left and 50 grn weight = dead on.

This way you know the svale is reading right and the setting is also rght

[kevin c]

I'll have to remember this.

Loading to moderate pistol velocities and never changing from my favorite load using one powder and boolit, and finding the measure so consistent that the same dial setting never varies the drop, I've gotten lazy on double checking the scale.

If I reload for rifle, I see loads can use eight times the weight of powder compared to my pistol load, but eight times the range in drop weight error would be disastrous.

[Elroy]

You could figure out which one is loosing accuracy at higher weight by gathering a few of the lower weight charges that do weigh the same,and then weigh what you gather. Say for instance if both scales are registering the same at 15 grain,then gather 4 15 grain charges together,and the one that is registering correctly will read 60 grain,and the other will read approximately 7 grain high,or low.

[JSnover]

Midway has weights.

[georgerkahn]

DeanoBeanCounter-- I agree with all suggestions given. "Adding one", PAPER CLIPS are my friend! Huh? I have both Lyman and RCBS weight check sets, and the great majority of total weights I seek in my reloading are constants. As an example, now, I've been loading some .25 auto cast bullets requiring 1.6 grains of powder. I spray painted a paper clip with Krylon ($1/can at dollar store) paint, and using a pair of diagonal cutting pliers trimmed a medium-sized clip until it perfectly matched the 1.6 grains check weights. I sprayed a second coat, this on what was the unpainted bottom. Bion, the paint does add a smidgeon, but I use a fine file on a cut clip end to attain precise final weight.
Stored in a small plastic bag, now labeled 1.6 GN, whether I use any of the three scales on my bench -- I have a uniform, accurate reference weight. As nueces5 posted, factory bullets accomplish the same, but I would verify weight with scales and also paint the now-reference bullet.
geo

[dragon813gt]

Factory bullets have an acceptable tolerance range. Sierra Match Kings are almost always the weight on the box label. But almost always is not always. I’ve gone through and weighed an entire box. Will try to find my notes.

[GregLaROCHE]

With inexpensive electronic scales, I find temperature can change readings.

[ioon44]

I would trust the balance beam over a electronic scale, as it has been stated get a set of check weights.
I have 2 electronic scales and they never weigh the same with the same check weight, I always use my RCBS 505 beam scale for powder charges.

[ukrifleman]

I would trust the balance beam over a electronic scale, as it has been stated get a set of check weights.

+1, as stated a good beam scale is the most consistent method to weigh charges.

I zero my Redding No. 2 scale, then set the desired powder charge and verify it with check weights before each loading session.

ukrifleman

[Petrol & Powder]

Buy a check weight set. There’s a few available tailored to reloaders. You have no way of knowing if your scale works w/out it. And you need to check across the entire range.
:goodpost:

Yep, that's crux of it.

And don't assume one scale is more accurate than the other.

[sureYnot]

Whichever one hasn't cost you an eye or finger yet is probably the most accurate.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[dk17hmr]

A large part of my job involves expensive scales. When a question comes up or results don't jive the check weights come out and we go through a calibration procedure verifying 5 points on the scale with check waits ranging from 1 gram to 10,000 grams.

Check weights are a must.

[Jackpine]

Have you done the recalibration process on the electronic scale. I have three different electronic scales, and they all came with weight or weights to calibrate, and this process needs to be done on a fairly regular basis. If you have a 50 gram calibration weight, 771.6 grains, that will be too heavy for most balance beam scales, but the 20 gram, 308.6 grains, will work.

All the electronic scales I have used take a while to "settle down" when first plugged in and the cheaper battery one will vary somewhat with change in battery current. In addition to being sensitive to temps, the small, low dollar battery scale I have is very sensitive to static electricity. I keep a dryer sheet in a peanut butter jar on the bench.

I second the idea of custom check weights. Paper clip idea makes sense, but I would lose them on my bench and need to mark things because I have SRS!! I used to use peices of cut plastic shotshell cases, but found that the small, battery one was sometimes reacting to static electricity from the plastic. I have gone to peices of aluminum can. You can go from a small piece with as low as a grain or two, or by folding go up to 30 grains plus. I mark each with the weight.

I agree that the balance beam is still the most accurate, at least compared to six different electronic ones I have ever used, especially if trickling powder.

[mdi]

When I got my first digital scale I used new coins for check weights (handier than finding/buying check weights). My records show a nickel weighs 77.161 grains, a dime is 35.031 gr, and a quarter is 87.501 gr. and I normally rounded off down taking into consideration any wear on the coin Not perfect but close enough for government work and reloading...

[dragon813gt]

I agree that the balance beam is still the most accurate, at least compared to six different electronic ones I have ever used, especially if trickling powder.
It’s entirely scale dependent. For the most part cheap electronic scales aren’t sensitive enough for trickling powder. I found a lot of them varied depending on where you placed the weight on the pan. And auto shut off is nothing but a problem.

There are electronics that are meant for trickling powder. And some of them aren’t that much money. I don’t own one and I’m trying to recall the model number. I believe it’s the Gem Pro 250 that is inexpensive and works great for reloading purposes. The ones marketed to reloaders for powder dispensers all work. It’s almost always a case of you get what you pay for.

[Larry Gibson]

I would trust the balance beam over a electronic scale, as it has been stated get a set of check weights...…..

^^^^^^ +1

"Check weights are a must."

Absolutely......

[375RUGER]

A quality electronic scale should have come with check weights.

[cp1969]

A quality electronic scale should have come with check weights.Exactly. I bought an electronic scale, thinking it would be the best thing since sliced bread. It wasn't. I use the balance beam scale far more often.

[rockshooter]

If using coins as check weights, use the same coins each time so wear isn't a factor. I have the Lyman weight set but find coins much handier to let me know if the electronic scale is where it should be. I trust the balance beam more tho. I like the paperclip idea for small weights.
Loren

[dverna]

To verify the veracity of a balance, I use a sierra matchking of known weight.
I have never been disappointed.

Agree...no real need for check weights. Even "cheap" jacketed bullets are adequately consistent...at least in my experience.

For lower weights...use air gun pellets.

[SOFMatchstaff]

I trust my balance beam units, the one on my bench shelf hasnt moved since it was placed there. the electronic units that have migrated in and out all seem to be irritated by fluorescent light fixtures, and battery condition. even when used with the power supply transformers they were not consistent. Check weights, of some kind, are a needed tool on any loading bench..

[mdi]

At what price is a digital scale no longer "cheap"? The biggest drawback for me and digital scales is trickling up. I owned 3 three, the first was about 20 years ago and I paid over $100 for it. It would jump .2-.3 gr. when attempting to trickle up. No matter how slow I would go, it often jumped sometimes even to .4 gr. But one day it would no longer "tare" and soon died all together. Then another digital but from a known manufacturer/vendor and the same, not good for trickling (I had to trickle a bit, remove/replace the pan and pause). I got another one just a month ago and it came in a nice plastic case with power supply and it is large enough to see and handle. IIRC it was over $90. But for trickling up the same problem happens, no matter how slow I tickle it will jump .2-.3 gr. So it's back to trickle a few granules, lift/replace the pan and pause. And I've kept fluorescent lights away, use the power supply not batteries, no breeze, and no other electronic/electrical devices within 12'.The main reason for me trickling up to .1 gr. is for load work ups and my 32 ACP and 380 ACP there are some powders with less than a half grain from min. to max....

[1bluehorse]

I don't know why some have so much trouble with electronic scales. I have two, an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 and an RCBS 750 Rangemaster. I also have three BB scales, an RCBS 1010, a Hornady and an old Lyman 500. The balance beam scales I spent some time calibrating them across the scale, they are now all three good throughout. (at least up to 500gr. that's are far as I tested today). The RCBS electronic scales I've owned for over 10 years and today are still as accurate as when new. I just now went in, calibrated them, and tested both against two of my balance beams up through 450gr. starting at 10gr. All read within .1 of each other. The Hornady was the one that was off .1 light on ONE of the readings. I use the electronic ones the most, always calibrate before use, verify with check weights, a 10 then add a 20 then another 20, and I "usually" will do an occasional check between a BB and the electronic as I load, but trust each one as much as the other. All that takes about 5 minutes tops.

If this seems a "bit" extreme accuracy wise it none the less is true. I did not go up the "scale" in 10gr increments. Started at 10 then went two 20's then jumped to a 308.9 (calibration weight) then to 468 (another calibration weight) and the above is the results I got.

[sparkyv]

Win 22LR cases weigh right at 10.0 grains. Easy-peasy check weights...not for use as calibration weights.

[Martin Luber]

Don't forget, beam balances can be off due to dust in the pivots. I discovered that when working on max rifle loads and compared to the digital. Even the check weight was off. This scale sat protected on a closed cabinet shelf. Google this site for other experience.
Good luck

[M-Tecs]

Don't forget, beam balances can be off due to dust in the pivots. I discovered that when working on max rifle loads and compared to the digital. Even the check weight was off. This scale sat protected on a closed cabinet shelf. Google this site for other experience.
Good luck

Yup a dirty, chipped or worn agate bearings/knife edge system are all issues with beam scales. It happens more than most realize.

Never used him but this guy has a great rep for repairs or increasing sensitivity. https://www.facebook.com/Single-Kernel-Scales-266037570185688/

[uscra112]

My Pact II electronic scale came with 2 check weights and a procedure for calibrating that used first the lighter, then the heavier, then both together to get an approximation of linearity. Until I did that very carefully (several times) it was wildly inaccurate. I still don't trust it for powder.

A proper set of check weights is a necessary item for the tool kit in any case. Even the best balance beams can be off. Pennies, dimes, .22 hulls, etc. are not accurate enough. Not even near.

My .02

[M-Tecs]

I do have check weights and my Denver Instrument MXX-123 is rock solid.

https://www.6mmbr.com/mxx123test.html

I tried several other electronic scales before Denver Instrument MXX-123 and I would not recommend any of them. The Denver Instrument MXX-123 is not made anymore more I do highly recommend it.

This is the current version but i know nothing about it. https://www.coleparmer.com/i/cole-parmer-symmetry-ec-series-portable-toploading-balance-100g-x-0-001g-120v/2000032?pubid=EW

[uscra112]

Yeah, that's the kind of money you have to invest to get a decent electronic.

btw that Cole-Parmer at the link apparently doesn't read out in grains. :-(

[M-Tecs]

It does have a custom?? "g, oz, ct, dr, ozt, GN, N, tl T, tl H, tl S, custom" Don't know anything other than its the replacement for the Denver Instrument MXX-123. I hope my Denver Instrument MXX-123 lasts longer than I do. I have a RCBS 10-10 and a couple of Ohaus Dail-O-grains but I much prefer to use the Denver Instrument MXX-123. I have a couple of other electronic scales but they are average at best.

[Land Owner]

OP - with your initial difference of 7.4 grains at the higher rifle powder weights, it is well within your financial grasp (before the purchase of test weights - highly recommended btw) to TEST the beam vs. the digital against the Mfg's stated weight of one (1) of their bullets. This test WILL determine which scale is closest to the bullet's stated weight.

Test weigh, on each scale, one Mfg's bullet. This is immediately more accurate than one of your scale readings. It isn't "exact", but for one scale it is "closest to the pin" for zero dollars invested.

mdi, et al - some powered scales are only good for +/-0.50 grains in the first place (filtering of vibrations). Your 0.1 to 0.3 grain increments may not register swiftly or accurately due to the "truncation routine" that is programmed in your electronic scale. Getting the scale's programming to decide what to display is a problem for scale manufacturers:


Strain Gage Load Cell...tiny bend changes the electrical characteristics of the strain gage
producing a very small change in its output...amplify this signal up to a measurable level then
convert it from an analog to digital value that the computer inside your scale can read and convert
to a weight.

If the computer displayed the actual readings it was receiving from the load cell you would find
the scale all but unusable. There are two reasons for this; first of all, because of the speed that this
electronic stuff whirls around, the scale picks up every little vibration and puff of wind in the room
and instantly amplifies it. Secondly, in the great scheme of things, a tenth of a grain, one seventy
thousandth of a pound, is a real small thing to pin down and measure.

The computer in your scale acts as a filter deciding, in fractions of a second, whether or not to
allow a given reading onto the display...The goal is to provide a display that is
both very stable when the weight is stable, yet changes very quickly when the weight changes, all
the while filtering out wind and repetitive vibrations.

[Chill Wills]

A quality electronic scale should have come with check weights.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
I feel this way too.


Thousand(s) dollar hobby, priceless hands and eyes and the cheapest scale money can buy. Hmmm.

As has been said - Check weights are a must. If you are playing with gunpowder, at the very least it seems like the smart thing to do.
263425
I keep two check weights handy and a full set stored if needed.
It is good to know how much powder you put in the case. :idea:

[kevin c]

Let me show my ignorance here.

What is it that matters? Is it that the readout on the calibrated scale using the check weight is the same that the manufacturer got weighing the same item? Is it that the number is always the same any time you weigh the same item? Is it that there consistent increase in the number when weight is added?

Coming from a pistol cartridge reloading background, where a range of +\- 0.1 grains can be 5-6% of the charge and is considered within the error of both the scale and the measure and doesn't appreciably affect internal or external ballistics, it's easy to assume that, so long as the same amount of powder gives the same number on the scale, that you're good so long as you're not pushing the edge of the envelope. A risky assumption with rifle loads, I'm guessing.

[Land Owner]

kevin c - yes and yes to your 2nd and 3rd questions. Scales must be calibrated so that scale users can talk apples to apples. If you are following a Mfg's load recipe and your scale is "off" by (say) +7.8 grains (the OP's difference between his scales), then as you increase your powder charge it should not be unexpected WHEN your gun disintegrates, because you are not on the same page as the Mfg. of that recipe. After calibration, in order for the scale to be of any reliable use, it MUST reflect a series of increasing check weights for the reloader as was calibrated by the Mfg., AND the expressed weight of a component (individual coin, case, boolit, etc.) should not vary if that component has not been altered (given that the reloader didn't move from [say] Alabama to Greenland, where a physical change in the gravity "constant" MIGHT be a consideration).

No, to the way in which you worded your 4th question (and I may be being a "word snob" rather than "reading between the lines" to another meaning). If I add 0.10 grains to a load, I would like my scale to increase its readout by 0.10 grains (one [1] seventy thousandths of a pound, is a real small thing to pin down and measure - as quoted above). If I add (say) 7.8 grains to a load, likewise, I want the readout, or beam, to correspondingly reflect that too. Are those two examples "a consistent increase", meaning (to me) "the same"? No. What matters, your 1st question, is that your 7.8 (or whatever) grain increase and my 7.8 (or whatever) grain increase are reflected the same by each of our calibrated scales.

Consider that some shooters, including winning competitive shooters, don't measure with a scale or by charge weight, but by consistent VOLUME of powder in their cases.

Chill-Wills is right thinking in his comment - considering personal health and safety!

[sparkyv]

Any common item that does not change weight can be used as a check weight (again, not for calibration). You just have to know its actual weight. Why do you say they are not "accurate enough", uscra?



A proper set of check weights is a necessary item for the tool kit in any case. Even the best balance beams can be off. Pennies, dimes, .22 hulls, etc. are not accurate enough. Not even near.

My .02

[dragon813gt]

You don’t know the weight of them in advance. W/ a set of check weights you know exactly what they’re supposed to weigh before you place them on a scale. W/ coins and such you will have to Weigh them to determine the weight. And you have no way of knowing if the scale you’re weighing them on is correct.

Another thing to note about check weights is you are not supposed to handle them w/ your hands. Use a set of tweezers. The oils on your hands can change the weights over time. Is this really important for reloading purposes, probably not. But I prefer I to follow instructions.

[1hole]

I don't know why some have so much trouble with electronic scales.

It's because, as a group, electronic scales are flaky. And they rarely follow a trickler in real time.

Seems everyone loves their digital scales, at least until they crap out ... and they will crap out! I've been reloading a long time and I've never even heard of a beam scale drifting or quiting unless the user physically damaged it.


The balance beam scales I spent some time calibrating them across the scale, they are now all three good throughout. (at least up to 500gr. that's are far as I tested today).

You just calibrated three balance scales? That's very interesting.

Knowing how balance beam scales work, I have to wonder: How far off were they before you calibrated them and what did you do to them to bring them back into line?

[AZ Pete]

+1 1hole. I have a 1010 and a set of check weights that I trust for all powder weighing. I have a cheap electronic that is great for segregating cast bullets and brass, not so good for powder charges.

[country gent]

Normally a "standard" can be traced back to the national weights and measures institute. Weather Gauge blocks pin gauges mic standards weights or volumes standards are traceable to a set standard.

In manufacturing these standard ISO **** ensures that a part made in one factory is the same as any other made elsewhere or that it fits on other parts made anywhere else. Its how measuring tools are kept the same any where in the world. In a home shop the same mics are used for all measurements so even if off or worn things fit. WHen 2 3 or more mics are used then all must read the same.

Coins bullets small objects weighed arnt tied to any standard so results may vary ( I have gotten several boxes of 168 grn sierra MK that actually weighed 167 grns). Check weights are tied to the National standard and the known weight is the weight. You can also verify a scales thru the rule of 3. 3 scales all set to weigh an object. Check weights can be made from common materials Aluminum,copper,brass, stainless wires and stock work. DO this with a new calibrated scales and work slow and careful. Different gauge wires cut to length and fled on ends to weight then bend form into shapes for each weight. at about 10 grns you can go to round stock and turn them.

Good check weights are never handled by hand but with tweezers or forceps as the oils from skin will affect the weights this is cumulative as repeated handling adds to the deposits. Same with the standard for a bigger mic holding it in your hand for 5 mins may increase the length by a .0001

[Land Owner]

You just calibrated three balance scales?

Open the beam scale pan. There are dozens of small lead weights in there. The beam itself is a fulcrum, has weight on its long axis from the pivot point, and must be counterbalanced at the pan to achieve a true zero. Adjusting these weights is a calibration to zero that scale.

[beemer]

I worked building high end dinning room furniture for many years. The lead guys always checked our rulers against each other's or against a known source. Some of the lumber we used was VERY expensive and we need a reference point, we couldn't afford any big mistakes.

No difference here, bullets, coins and such really give no help unless already verified. Check weights give you a known reference point, otherwise where are you. I want the scale to check the bullet not the bullet to check the scale. A Lyman check weight set is around $50 and answers all your questions. With what I have spent on this hobby it is a small price, wish I had bought them in the beginning.

Dave

[kerplode]

Yeah, that's the kind of money you have to invest to get a decent electronic.

btw that Cole-Parmer at the link apparently doesn't read out in grains. :-(

They spec units as "g, oz, ct, dr, ozt, GN, N, tl T, tl H, tl S, custom"

GN = Grains

Looks like a nice scale...Might have to add that to my wish-list.

[1bluehorse]

It's because, as a group, electronic scales are flaky. And they rarely follow a trickler in real time.

Seems everyone loves their digital scales, at least until they crap out ... and they will crap out! I've been reloading a long time and I've never even heard of a beam scale drifting or quiting unless the user physically damaged it.



You just calibrated three balance scales? That's very interesting.

Knowing how balance beam scales work, I have to wonder: How far off were they before you calibrated them and what did you do to them to bring them back into line?

The RCBS 1500 "trickles" powder quite well as it nears the selected charge weight. And I do use the "McDonalds straw mod".
I "calibrated" the scales using increasing amounts of check weights. Two of the beam scales would become "off" as the amount of weight increased but were good in the 0-100ish range. Adjustments on the Hornady are made using two "nuts" on the end of the poise and I went through a lot of "gyrations" to get it set. I also made sure the scales were level using, well, a level across the base. The Lyman uses different size shot in the bottom pan. That took a lot of tiny little lead pellet changing with tweezers to get it where I wanted. I also cleaned the poise arms and stoned the edges to make sure all was smooth and sharp. The 1010 took new agates. I spent a few days doing this but it seems to have worked as all three of these scales vary very little through the scale range. Doubt if you want, I really don't care, all I care about it is how they work. The Lyman does seem to get "off" on occasion, not sure why, (?) but exchanging a couple BB sizes fixes it. I do not put a check weight in the pan and then level the scale to the poise with the "foot screw", I level the base first and proceed from there. Using a beam scale I usually use the Hornady instead of the 1010 simply because of set up time of the 1010. I still check the Hornady against the electronic and vise-versa.

[AZ Pete]

Open the beam scale pan. There are dozens of small lead weights in there. The beam itself is a fulcrum, has weight on its long axis from the pivot point, and must be counterbalanced at the pan to achieve a true zero. Adjusting these weights is a calibration to zero that scale.

I don't believe that zeroing a scale is the same as calibrating it. Balancing the beam, so that the pointer is zeroed does not assure that when the weights are set at 50 gn, that the pan will actually hold exactly 50 gn. when the pointer settles at zero...

[country gent]

The problem trickling with an electronic scales is the lag time. Once it settles and reads tricking a few grains it takes longer for it to read the change and you over shoot your mark. Depending on the scales .5-1 grn light will allow for this.

[dragon813gt]

The problem trickling with an electronic scales is the lag time. Once it settles and reads tricking a few grains it takes longer for it to read the change and you over shoot your mark. Depending on the scales .5-1 grn light will allow for this.

This is a problem w/ certain electronic scales, not all. In almost all cases you get what you pay for. A common problem that a lot seem to have is drift. Same weight in the pan and the value will continue to rise over time. The question really boils down to, how precise do you need the scale to be?

[1hole]

Spot checking for scale accuracy isn't calibration. Nor is zeroing a beam scale calibrating. Zeroing simply sets the base reference point for the maker's existing calibration marks. The maker's beam marks are obviously not adjustable so all we can do is check for the existing calibration to be reliable. I've never heard of an undamaged beam scale being off enough to matter.

If a beam scale is dirty (dusty) or the beam bearing is damaged it can't swing freely. We can use alcohol, que-stik and toothpick to make the pivot and bearing perfectly clean; that's usually enough. BUT, rough handling can damage the pivot bar's knife edges. Careful use of a hard Arkansas stone, or a very fine grit ceramic file, can remove a few light burrs and - IF you do good work - restore the knife's critical sharpness. That's repair, not calibration.

Ohaus' type scales have a rough zero beam balance with bits of weight trapped within the pan holder. Other types (Webster?) use a couple of jam nuts on the right end of the beam itself for rough zero. Normally, both rough zero types are a "once and done" factory setting. Both types depend on the user doing a final zero with an empty pan in place and using the screw jack in the left end of the base. (It's not necessary to use a bubble level to set up a beam scale, if it looks level it's level enough.)

I worked a few years as a precision instrument technician (at second level from the National Bureau of Standards) in the space program and sometimes worked on digital scales; some of them had midrange calibration points across their operating range and those scales could be calibrated.

On the other hand, balance beam scales are calibrated by the maker putting marks on the beam; there are no calibrating adjustments on them. Any beam that is damaged enough to be out of tolerance gets tossed, not calibrated.

No reloading grade (Chinese) digital scales that I know of are worth the costs of repairing/calibrating, if one is returned for repair it will just get tossed; if the owner is lucky he'll get a replacement.

Digital scales are a series of electrictronic "ON-OFF" flip/flop (1 or 0) circuits. Once settled internally the flip/flops are slow to change state due to what's called hysteresis; that's what makes them tend to lag an annoying bit when trying to follow a trickler. And of course they are sensitive to both ambient temperature and line voltage so they tend to drift a bit during use. I don't like that.

I made a pretty good living for a long time fixing precision electronic measurement stuff because it so often needs doctoring. I do have a small digital scale on my bench for cases and bullets but my powder ALWAYS gets weighed on one of my beams.

In some 55 years of use, my old M-5 Lyman/Ohaus hasn't changed even a tenth of a grain but I don't think that's an exception for any beam scale; keep a beam scale clean and don't beat it up and it'll work right forever. But digitals .... well???

[uscra112]

You don’t know the weight of them in advance. W/ a set of check weights you know exactly what they’re supposed to weigh before you place them on a scale. W/ coins and such you will have to Weigh them to determine the weight. And you have no way of knowing if the scale you’re weighing them on is correct.

Another thing to note about check weights is you are not supposed to handle them w/ your hands. Use a set of tweezers. The oils on your hands can change the weights over time. Is this really important for reloading purposes, probably not. But I prefer I to follow instructions.

This is absolutely true. Many years ago I spent a few man-days restoring a lovely ww1-era laboratory balance, which was easily capable of detecting a single fingerprint! I would use it today, but one reading could take 2-3 minutes, as it has no dampening at all. It could be used to calibrate coins, however. to better than .0001 gram. (Convert that to grains!)

Dittos, 1hole. Some digital scales are affected by RFI, too. As from cell-phones and even fluorescent lights!

[1hole]

Dittos, 1hole. Some digital scales are affected by RFI, too. As from cell-phones and even fluorescent lights!

Yes, RFI hurts some digital scales and stray electromagnetic fields are common problems for some others. But, ALL (cheep) digital scales are affected by temperature and power voltage changes.

I've been out of that line of work for a long time so I can't KNOW but I doubt any electronic scale selling for less than $500 has an internal regulated power supply that can self compensate for common temp and power changes. (I once worked with a reloader guy who used an old APS battery powered personal computer AC power-fail safe system on his digital reloading scale just to avoid those potential problems!)

[curioushooter]

I consider a $10 check weight set an essential.

[sparkyv]

1hole and country gent know what they're talking about. Listen to them.

[1hole]

I consider a $10 check weight set an essential.

IF I were depending on a digital for powder, so would I.

[M-Tecs]

In a head to head comparison my electronic Denver Instruments MXX 123 blows my RCBS 304 Dial-O-Gram and my RCBS 10 10 out of the water. My earlier electronic scales had the normal issues stated in the posts above.

I am a big believer in using check weights that are equal to or very close to the powder charge that is being weighed. Certified standards are always the best but the folks that use jacketed bullets close to the approximate charge weight are keeping it real and verifying a safety issue. Yes factory bullets have a tolerance but I have yet to find one more that was more than a couple of tenths of a grain off and most are a lot closer than that. For most applications having you powder charges within a couple of tenths is more than adequate.

For the OCD types how do you monitor the humidity level of your powder? That does effect weight and burning rate and it does change over time.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/03/humidity-and-powder-burn-rates-what-you-need-to-know/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/03/humidity-and-powder-burn-rates-what-you-need-to-know/

[Land Owner]

Interesting article. Comments to it are interesting too. Food for thought, but not too deep, I think. Reloading in, keeping powder "dry", and storing rounds in air conditioned space (humidity control) are representative of modern living, but not the varying conditions, dawn to dusk, outside mostly, under which the rounds will be shot. Does humidity make a difference? It assuredly does - on bullet flight long range. Rough handling (some rounds since WWII) is another variable.

Sorry for the thread drift...

[gnappi]

Weight checking is one area to not scrimp. Scale weight checks are expensive but your face is worth it :-)

[Ozark mike]

Weight checking is one area to not scrimp. Scale weight checks are expensive but your face is worth it :-)

My scale set cost me 41 cents a quarter nickle dime and a penny. Thats all i have ever used and yet my face is still here amazing huh:mrgreen:

[44magLeo]

I have tried several affordable electronic scales. The best of the bunch Reads to .01 gr. It does require using the included check weight a lot. Every couple charges I use the check weight to be sure it's still reading the same. On these checks I often have to hit the calibrate button.
On my beam scales I have a Lyman 1000 and a Lee Safety scale. They are both very accurate and sensitive. On the Lyman I think it was used a lot on the under 20 gr range. The notches on the beam and the ridge in the weight are worn enough so you can't feel them lock in place very well. If you line up the line on the weight to the lines on the beam it reads very accurately.
I have a set of check weights that I used to verify the accuracy. I can get from .5 grs to 50 grs using the check weights. I wanted some heavier weights to check heavier weights. The Lee goes to 100 grs. The Lyman to 1000.
For larger check weights I used solder. Add enough to the pan in short pieces till I got the weight I wanted, then put them into a spoon. Melted the solder so I got chunks of a known weights. I made two 50's. two 100's and one 200 grs weights this way.
With these I could check the scales across the ranges they are capable. On the Lyman the weight did vary a bit across the range.
On the Lyman I found as you went up the scale it weighed things a bit heavy.The variation wasn't much. With 100 grs of weight the beam read 100 grs. With 750 grs of weight it read 752. At that point the scale read ..0026 % heavier than it should. So I assume that at the 100 gr weight the misreading was roughly 1/7.5 of what it was at 750 grs or .00035%.
I don't think I could possibly see that small an error in the reading.
When I set up my powder measure I get the weight set so one charge weighs as close to the weight I want, then dump ten charges I the scale. This weight should be ten times the desired weight. If not I adjust the measure to get the 10X charge to be 10x the desired weight. I then check a single charge weight ten times to see how consistent the charges are.
If every thing checks out ok I then charge from the measure to the cases. Checking every tenth charge on the scale.
This has worked for me for many years. In the 22-250 I had years ago it worked well enough to get sub 1/2 groups all day long. Which worked very well for most any varmint I pointed it at. Even small one in excess of 400 yards out.
Leo

[kokomokid]

You can get a set of gram check weights from China for about $10 that includes all the little pieces. For my Dasher a 32.6 grain load is 2.112 grams or 2 grams equal 30.85 grains.

[Texas Gun]

The beam scale will be right if you zero it correctly I do not trust Electric scales I have an RCBS I can check the load three times same load gives me three different weights granted they’re not off by much but it’s still three different weights

[ubetcha]

Maybe I missed this in this thread, but how does one correct for misreading balance beams or electronic scale? For instance, if I set my beam weights to 20grs and my beam reads higher or lower than the 0 line with a 20gr check weight, what would one do to compensate. Add some tape to the bottom of the beam tray to increase its weight if low? What about of it's heavier? I would think electronic scales would be totally different story

[C.F.Plinker]

Maybe I missed this in this thread, but how does one correct for misreading balance beams or electronic scale? For instance, if I set my beam weights to 20grs and my beam reads higher or lower than the 0 line with a 20gr check weight, what would one do to compensate. Add some tape to the bottom of the beam tray to increase its weight if low? What about of it's heavier? I would think electronic scales would be totally different story

This will depend on which beam scale you have. Many have a screw or disk near the left end that will allow you to raise or lower the left end until pointer points at -0-. If this doesn't do it, some like the old Redding, C-H, Pacific, etc have two nuts on the right end of the beam that can be moved to the right or left to affect the balance. If you do this make sure that the base is level before you start. Keep the nuts tight against each other so the gremlins don't move them while you aren't looking. Others, like RCBS, have lead shot in the bottom of the pan. You can take the pan apart and add or remove shot until it is in balance. Again, make sure the base is level when you do this.

Lee scales do not have the ability to adjust the height of the left end of the scale. I made a sub-base for it. The sub-base has a bubble level on it so I can start out with the scale level. Then put the appropriate check weights in the pan, and turn the wheel in the right end of the beam until the scale reads -0-.

For my digital scale I recorded what the scale read for 0, 1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 25, 50, 70, and 100 grains and made a table showing what needed to be added or subtracted from what the scale said to get the actual weight.

[country gent]

A lot of beam scales have the basic weights to get close under the scale pan holder. Small lead shot thats removed or added as needed. A screw foot adjusts up and down for final zero.

Digitals can get interesting at times. Most once you go thru the calibration process thats it. You can use check weights to set the scales to zero at that exact weight. Here you run to zero then read the plus or minus it off.

The biggest help for most scales isnt for the scales but the bench it sits on. Its a simple little leveling plate. Made of a size the scales and trickler fit on with 3 screws. sit this on the bench then with a good level adjust screws to where it is level in both planes X and Y. This gets the scales sitting right and solid. I make mie from 3/8"-1/2" thick aluminum. wood will work but you need to check it often do to warpping with moisture changing.

[ubetcha]

This will depend on which beam scale you have. Many have a screw or disk near the left end that will allow you to raise or lower the left end until pointer points at -0-. If this doesn't do it, some like the old Redding, C-H, Pacific, etc have two nuts on the right end of the beam that can be moved to the right or left to affect the balance. If you do this make sure that the base is level before you start. Keep the nuts tight against each other so the gremlins don't move them while you aren't looking. Others, like RCBS, have lead shot in the bottom of the pan. You can take the pan apart and add or remove shot until it is in balance. Again, make sure the base is level when you do this.

Lee scales do not have the ability to adjust the height of the left end of the scale. I made a sub-base for it. The sub-base has a bubble level on it so I can start out with the scale level. Then put the appropriate check weights in the pan, and turn the wheel in the right end of the beam until the scale reads -0-.

For my digital scale I recorded what the scale read for 0, 1, 3, 5, 7, 10, 25, 50, 70, and 100 grains and made a table showing what needed to be added or subtracted from what the scale said to get the actual weight.

I have a RCBS 505 and now that you mention it, the pan tray does have a screw on the bottom and rattles when moved. Forgot all about that. Thanks!
I also use a Hornady electronic scale. I use this one more due to its more convenient to use. The RCBS is elevated to eye height to see the 0 line better.

[uscra112]

Most beam balances that we use aren't adjustable for linearity. It's baked in at the factory. The user can affect it by adjusting the weights of the poises, but you'll probably make matters worse rather than better. One thing you might look at is whether the large poise has any accumulation of dust on it. If you find that the 100 grain check weight requires that you add a few kernels of powder to the pan to get the pointer to come to the mark, this is a possible cause.

Another factor can be the sharpness of the knife-edges on which the beam rests. They must be clean and sharp, and the anvils on which they rest must be clean, or you'll get some linearity error, and it won't be consistent across the entire measuring range.

[Scrounge]

I have two scales. One electronic and one balance beam. At lower weights such as for handgun loads they both show about the same weight. At higher loads such as for rifle loads they both are way different. The balance beam says 57 grains and the electronic says 64.8 grains. I use the electronic for rifle loads for safety. The question is, is there a way to determine which is right? Is there a weight kit to check them with (without breaking the bank)? Thoughts, suggestions, comments, ect. would be of great help.
Thanks
Dean

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012866166 though two sets an another poster suggests makes sense to me. I looked at these on Amazon, they start at $44 a set there. I have an Ohaus triple beam balance so I may check into making my own scale check weights. 1/10th grain is about 6.5milligrams, rounding roughly. Especially these days, I've got way more time than money.

[Scrounge]

Maybe I missed this in this thread, but how does one correct for misreading balance beams or electronic scale? For instance, if I set my beam weights to 20grs and my beam reads higher or lower than the 0 line with a 20gr check weight, what would one do to compensate. Add some tape to the bottom of the beam tray to increase its weight if low? What about of it's heavier? I would think electronic scales would be totally different story

There should be a screw that you can adjust that moves the balance point of the beam just slightly by moving a small weight. You will also want to do this in a room with still air. No fans, no AC, no heater running. Back when I was playing with one in high school, I built a Plexiglas scale cover to keep the dust and air currents of the one I had then.

[C.F.Plinker]

I may check into making my own scale check weights. 1/10th grain is about 6.5milligrams, rounding roughly.

Before I bought a set of check weights I made my own out of washers. A friend who worked in a hospital lab weighed them on one of their microgram scales and wrote the weights on the bag they were in. I converted to grains (1 gram = 15.43 grains) and inscribed that weight on each washer with an electric engraver. Another option might be to have your local pharmacy weigh them using their scale. You could use lengths of wire for the very small weights.

[uscra112]

I should mention that electronic scales do have to be calibrated for linearity, or they can be wildly off. e.g. my PACT II came with two check weights, and the manual lays down a procedure using one, then the other, then both together that does this calibration. This must be performed pretty regularly, because the low$$ sensors they use can drift over time.

[beagle]

I had an electronic e scale that came with weights to calibrate. I checked my two beam scales with these and both ran .1 grain light so I left well enough alone. The e scale no longer lives here as the darn thing wouldn't hold calibration. Good for weighing bullets though.
Can't beat a beam scale. I started out with an old Forester that traveled all over the world with me in the Army and was still good when I let #2 son have it when he started loading./beagle

[alamogunr]

I've got the Lyman set. Have been looking at the RCBS larger set. "Out of Stock" most places I usually order from.

I've got 3 RCBS beam balance scales. This thread is prompting me to check out all three. Then I want to go the paper clip route for some small powder charges. Right now it is 3.5 grains of Bullseye for 9mm, 135 grain pc boolit. There isn't much variation with the Dillon measure but I still like to check a charge every so many throws.

[Petander]

Just got this set coming.

https://i.postimg.cc/QCFzgVFJ/IMG-20201217-115937-386.jpg

I have had the BPI digital battery thing for a year but I still trust good,old beam scales,got a few. A Pacific,Dillon,Lyman and RCBS at least.

Gonna check them all now.

[44magLeo]

I have a small check weight set, it has the .5 gr, 1 gr, 2 2 gr. 5 gr, wires with 2 ten gr and a 20 gr weights.
I have an older Lyman 1000 scale and the Lee scale. I have two digital scales, One has a small capacity but reads to .01 grs. The other is about worthless for any very precise. Neither one cost me much so I can't expect much. The small capacity one cost more and is fairly consistent. I still trust either of the beam scales over the digital scales.
I did use the check weights to check all the scales. All were right on at the weights in the set. I used the weights and made heavier weights.
I could total up to 50 grs with the check weights, I used these to set a scale then dumped them out and added bit of wire solder to the pan to get 50 grs. I then used a spoon and melted these into a 50 gr weight. I did the same to make more weights at 100 and 200 grs.
I now have two of each size. This lets me check the scales for zero out to 750 grs. This can tell me how accurate the scale readings are compared to actual weights.
Ok, granted this weights might not be labrotory precise but close enough for anything I do.
The Lee was very acurate out to it's 100 gr ca[pacity. Less than .5 grs off. The lyman the higher the weight the more off kit was. At 100 grs it was .5 off and at 750 it was off by 7 grs. These reading were low radings, so they would be ok to use. This .5 grs is .005% close enough. The 7 at 750 is .009%, still close enough. If anyone can see a .009% charge weight variation on the target they are either very good opr have a good amagination.
I seldom weigh charges that heavy but at ranges I weigh bullets they are fine. The readings were very consistent. I could get the weight, lift off the pan, set it back on and the readings were the same. So even if the exact weight was of a bit, they were always the same weight.
I dicided I can trust my beam scales. The digital was just as accurate but you had to calibrate it according to the instruction every few readings or it would drift off.
Leo

[1hole]

We can't "calibrate" balance beam scales. The calibration of a balance scale is physically built into the beam itself and it can't rightly be tweaked (aka, calibrated) by the user. That's okay because ALL of our balance scale makers do a very good job. I've never found one to be off more than 0.1 grain anywhere along the beam and, when weighing charges of say 50 grains that's an accuracy of .002%; no one is going to blow themselves up because of such a tiny error.

I still use my first beam scale bought in 1965. The beam had been rough balanced at the factory and I've never needed to change it. The original package included a 260.9 gr "extender" weight to make it get up from 500 to 1,000 grains. I've used it as a single point check but after all these years and thousands of charges it's never changed, not even a tenth. (Don't damage yours and keep it clean and yours will do as well.)

What the instructions usually say a user must do is balance the beam, end to end, but that's a "once and done" task. We first do a rough zero of the beam with the hidden pan hanger weights or the locked nuts at the end of the beam and it won't change in normal use. After the rough balance is achieved, the precise zero is checked and adjusted with the jack screw at the left end of the scale body with the empty pan in place. That means there is no need to get the scale's body precisely level from left to right, the jack screw handles that. Thus, if a beam scale's body looks eyeball level and can be adjusted to zero, it is as level as we need. (That's not true for digitals tho!)

Scale makers are more than happy to sell us a set of check weights. So, IF we have a wide range of check weights and are willing to spend the time, we can make a chart of beam error but it's an anal exercise in meaningless trivia and is more likely to introduce confusion than comfort.

Proof: Recognise that our scale makers and loading manual makers aren't fools. If we actually needed to sweat beam scale body level AND if it helped to make charts to be sure our beams haven't shrunk between uses, they would insist we do all that agonising detail before weighting a charge. But, they don't. All they tell us to do is to see if the scale's platform has changed and, if it has, to re-zero the jack screw to put the body back into zero to the beam's pointer and weigh the powder.

[Petander]

Yep we only zero beam scales.

But it's good to check for uniform readings,I like.

Cheap digital BPI battery scale uses a 50 gram weight to calibrate. How do you trust it for half a gram, a few grains? Crazy.

[country gent]

Even with beam scales you can use the check weights to set a dead zero weight. IE use the weights to come up with 41.5 grns ( my 308 match load) set scales up and zero it. set them to 41.5 and place the weights in the pan now if its off the line slightly zero to the line. Your scales is now set and zeroed at exactly 41.5 grns or as close as your check weights.

Most balance beams work not only on the adjustable weights but also on leverage. The better analytical are a true balance the weights on one side and the charge on the other. Setting the scales to the check weights is slightly more accurate than the scales graduations.

I may at some point make a balance scale from scratch in the shop. A 18" beam for the sensitivity carbide bearing in place of the aggregates. Hardened or carbide knife edges on the beam. Roughly 12" tall with the zero indicator down near the base for better definition on the graduations. possibly water or light oil dampened. Im thinking with some work and trial and error I can get to .01 or .02 accuracy with it.

[ubetcha]

After reading this thread I decided it was time to inspect and clean my RCBS 5-0-5 scale and noticed it had Ohaus molded into the bottom. Not that it means much other than it is hopefully a quality scale.

[1hole]

Ohaus is an old company. They have long been a maker of labratory scales and have made high grade powder scales for any reloading company who wanted to market good scales without having to make them; mine was made back in '65 when they supplied Lyman. That said, I believe every reloading balance scale on the market is as good and accurate as reloaders need. In fact, I wonder what any reloader with a scale accurate to +/- .00000001% would gain; I think it's nothing. Making powder scales accurate to +/- .1 grain was established because that was as tight as anyone needed; I believe it still is! ??

Reloaders really don't gain anything with highly precise accuracy of a weight, what we do benefit from is precise repeatability so we can KNOW that a cartridge made today will be identical to others made six months ago ... that is, IF we are using exactly the same cases/bullets and powder/primer lots, which seldom actually happens.

[Petander]

Reloaders really don't gain anything with highly precise accuracy of a weight, what we do benefit from is precise repeatability so we can KNOW that a cartridge made today will be identical to others made six months ago ... that is, IF we are using exactly the same cases/bullets and powder/primer lots, which seldom actually happens.

Some of us have several places to reload. I might do single stage 44 mag in one house and then another day on a progressive in another house. Same load.

It's good to know the scales read the same.

Like calipers and micrometers. I have a machinist friend who calibrates my good micrometers. I have miced and verified my NOE expanders so I can use them to quick check some digital calipers. Or as pin gauges,whatever.

Maybe OCD but I find it easier to know actual numbers.

[1hole]

Some of us have several places to reload. I might do single stage 44 mag in one house and then another day on a progressive in another house. Same load.

It's good to know the scales read the same.

Everyone should do whatever takes to make them comfortable BUT, if they're using the same scale in different places and zero it in each place and it will weigh exactly the same.

Variations of .1 grain or so, one way or the other, between different scales are meaningless unless the charges are on the ragged edge of disaster. In some 50 years of reloading with my own three scales, and with those of a few others, I've never seen any (clean) beam scale further "off" than that unless it has been visibly damaged. (Now for these digital thingies, they're a different ball of wax and I don't use them for powder!)

For anyone using different scales in different places it would certainly be good to insure they all read the same, or nearly so. If they don't, just pick one scale as the standard and use it as a guide for the other(s). But it's hard to believe there could be enough difference between undamaged scales to be hazardous; anyone loading that close to a KABOOM is already loading much too hot! IMHO.

[alamogunr]

This thread has been a comfort to me. I have been loading on the Dillon 550B for several days for relatively short periods of time. Sometimes I will skip a day. No matter the interval, when I start up again with the same load, the measure throws a slightly heavier charge. I've checked and the difference is never more than .3 gr to .4gr. But for a charge of 4.3 gr in .45 ACP that I'm loading for my son I don't want to take a chance. I double check with the check weights for a setting close to the 4.3 charge, in this case 4.5 gr. The scale passes the test every time. I'm completely in the dark why the first 3-4 charges are greater than the following ones because it takes those throws to settle down.

[3006guns]

You've received many very good bits of advice. Here's mine and worth every penny you paid for it.......

My wife bought me my first electronic scale for Christmas several years ago. It was an expensive scale and I set it up per the instructions. While using it, I noticed variations on the order of .2 gr. at times (using Pacific check weights). I would re calibrate and try it again. After several attempts I got frustrated, put it back in the box and went back to my balance scale. Because of my experience, I look on electronic scales with a jaundiced eye. Probably not fair, might have been my technique, but the prejudice remains. I never mentioned it my wife by the way..........

Grab a paper clip, go to the drug store and have them weigh it in grains for you. Make a note of the weight and use it to check your scale periodically. Just don't misplace that paper clip! :)

[onelight]

This thread has been a comfort to me. I have been loading on the Dillon 550B for several days for relatively short periods of time. Sometimes I will skip a day. No matter the interval, when I start up again with the same load, the measure throws a slightly heavier charge. I've checked and the difference is never more than .3 gr to .4gr. But for a charge of 4.3 gr in .45 ACP that I'm loading for my son I don't want to take a chance. I double check with the check weights for a setting close to the 4.3 charge, in this case 4.5 gr. The scale passes the test every time. I'm completely in the dark why the first 3-4 charges are greater than the following ones because it takes those throws to settle down.
I have noticed that the first few charges may be heavy at times if the measure has set for even an hour or two , so drop two or three when starting back up and return them to the measure or even if I have been messing with something on the press that might make it settle just like I would when settling the measure in after filling or making an adjustment on it , measures seem to be sensitive to any variance in routine some powders are worse than others.

[alamogunr]

I have noticed that the first few charges may be heavy at times if the measure has set for even an hour or two , so drop two or three when starting back up and return them to the measure or even if I have been messing with something on the press that might make it settle just like I would when settling the measure in after filling or making an adjustment on it , measures seem to be sensitive to any variance in routine some powders are worse than others.

I just responded to a PM from a member here that has given me good advice in the past. He also recommended throwing a few charges back in the reservoir and checking before charging a case. I'm making that a regular part of my routine from now on.

[country gent]

While I dont think its as important to have a scales thats dead exactly on a given weight. Reason being that a reloader works up to a given load with his scales and equipment so weather its 40.1 40.2 40.3 as long as it always the same scales and equipment. What I believe is important is that the scales resolution is so the 40.1 is always 40.1 when weighed. even a .05 variation in this aspect is .1 grn making that trickled with in a .1 charge of 40.1 charge a spread of 40.3.

One thing done whe certifying an measuring tool is measuring the same item 10 times or more to prove this repeatability. Carefully weigh the same weight 10-20 times and see how your scales repeats then use a heavier weight and repeat. dust rounded damaged knife edges will have an affect here even bad or worn dampening.

[1hole]

....even bad or worn dampening.

Liquid damping (oils or water water) are indeed subject to errors induced by surface tension. Thankfully, magnetic dampened scales have no such sensitivity.

Gunpowders have powdered graphite to lubricate their flow. A column of powder will slowly settle into a slightly more compact mass while just sitting thus the first few dropped charges are usually a bit heavy. Easy fix; quickly drop and dump the first half dozen charges back into the measure and then go on.

[1hole]

I may at some point make a balance scale from scratch in the shop. .... possibly water or light oil dampened.

Dampening with a liquid would defeat your .02 gr. purpose. Surface tension on the paddle would destroy the kind of accuracy you hope to achieve. Use standard magnetic damping on a copper vane instead, there is no magnetic effect on the copper vane when the beam isn't moving.

[troyboy]

I went down a very deep rabbit hole checking scales for accuracy. Purchased a very nice vintage set of check weights. Purchased 20 or so different balance beams and 3 electronic scales. What I learned was this, reloading quality electronic scales are not as accurate with lighter charges. Trickling light charges is an exercise in futility. Even some beam scales are not accurate through the whole range but with light charges and trickling they are more accurate then my electronic scales including the Hornady and RCBS dispenser/scale combo. Large charges were acceptable. I will not load light charges on any of my electronic scales. Check weights are essential for me but are only used once to verify a new scales accuracy. Once satisfied they get put back away..... the only way to learn is by doing...... No such thing as free education.

[1hole]

Even some beam scales are not accurate through the whole range but with light charges and trickling they are more accurate then my electronic scales including the Hornady and RCBS dispenser/scale combo.

I fully agree with your observations of flakey digital scales but I wonder how error you found any balance scale, at its worst. ???



Large charges were acceptable. I will not load light charges on any of my electronic scales.

I wonder, what are you calling "light" and "large" charges?



Check weights are essential for me but are only used once to verify a new scales accuracy.

Check weights are obviously the simplest way to confirm any scales absolute accuracy but I trust the maker's quality control system to do that. Therefore I use a few jacketed bullets to confirm that it's not massively off (i.e., perhaps as much as a full grain) and know that the beam calibration scale must insure the rest is also accurate ... I think.



Once satisfied they get put back away.....

There you go, once and done.

The calibration of a mechanical beam scale, from one end of the beam to the other, is in the physical precision of the notches and they certainly are not going to drift over time!


Bottom line, reloaders don't actually need high precision for charges, we need precision repeatability. I.e., assuming we use the same scale, if the charge we measure today is exactly the same as the one we weighed two years ago we're in good shape.

[troyboy]

1hole, light charges are pistol class with large being rifle. I can't remember if my results were posted or not. It really does not matter as my results were just that. Proved to myself what needed proven. Accuracy testing was not outside the realm of safety for reloading when the discrepancies were noted over the scales range. Incidently tuning the scales and the testing of sensitivity was also done. I wrote all this down prior to moving and have been on assignment for the last 3 years so I'm relying on memory without proper facts. I agree 100% with your statement but for me a scale needs to be accurate. Once satisfied that's what gets used. I also went down the die rabbit hole checking for concentricity, oal, etc but that is another topic.....

[1hole]

I agree 100% with your statement but for me a scale needs to be accurate. Once satisfied that's what gets used.

Of course we ALL want accurate scales but they are mechanical devices made to manufactoring tolerances so some variation is a fact of life. Thus, the question is, "How finely do we demand a powder scale's absolute accuracy?"

I don't think a rifle charge (say 35 gr. or more) variation of +/- 0.2 gr. in absolute terms matters because at that level we're getting into the statistical grass variations in powder and primer lots, case internal volume variations, etc. And I doubt anyone has ever gotten a KABOOM from a variation that small.

I haven't tested dozens of beam scales like you I but I have tested several and I have never seen one off more than .2 gr. at any point; they're rarely off more than half that. That's good enough accuracy for me IF the scale is totally repeatable - and I've not yet found a reloading beam scale of any brand that isn't quite repeatable unless it's bearing is dirty or it has been physically (and visually) damaged by a clumsy user.

I worked several years as a precision electronic measurements tech in the space program. I do use a small (cheep) digital for weighing bullets and cases but I have not and will not use an electronic scale to measure my powder charges.

[dddddmorgan]

Just saw this thread. I will chime in, since this is what I do for a living.

I work on scales, all sizes and shapes but small scales are my forte. I have one customer that uses RCBS 750 reloading scales in their manufacturing process, IIRC these scales come with a check weight and a button marked "cal" so they are easy to keep in line.

If there is anyone on this board that is concerned about their scale I'd be happy to check it, all it would require is careful packaging and postage both ways. If you call your local scale service company chances are a visit or even if you drop it off at their shop for a look, will cost you as much as the scale. Currently our rate is $110 an hour.

I live in Idaho, the elevation is approximately 2,300 feet. If you live on the Florida coast this can throw things off a bit, maybe .1 grain or so.

All this being said, I'd be happy to help anyone in need, PM me if you need info or help.

[Land Owner]

Finding "nothing" to do one afternoon, I ran a three scale comparison through a series of check weights from 1 gram (15.43236 grains) through 33 grams (509.26788 grains) between well cleaned RCBS 5-0-5, RCBS 10-10, and Pact Digital scales. The results after 37 test weight increments (four of which were for determining whether each scale still read zero and zeroing - if required):

NOTES
A.) Testing ceased at 510 grains as the 5-0-5 had no further capability.
B.) The 10-10 and Pact are capable of 1000+ grains.
C.) The digital is FAST!
D.) Damping of the pendulum in a beam scale is time consuming.
E.) The 10-10 pendulum was 2X slower to dampen than the 5-0-5.
F.) The 5-0-5 is the easier scale on which to dial a pre-determined weight.
G.) The 10-10 had to be zeroed 3 times.
I.) The 10 gram (154.3 grain) test was performed twice for all three scales.
J.) Each scale is reported to measure within +/-0.50 grains by its manufacturer

FINDINGS
i.) There were 33 increasing weights measured for each.
ii.) A total of 567 grams were weighed for each.
iii.) Cumulatively, no scale was "in error"* more than 0.0135 grains (the digital was low).
iv.) The 5-0-5 exhibited the least cumulative "error"* at 0.0020 grains (high).

CONCLUSIONS
1.) * ALL “errors” are attributed to ROUNDING.
2.) All measurements were taken to one significant digit.
3.) Actual grams to grains conversion was 5 significant digits.
4.) These results are VERY ACCURATE and RELIABLE for my reloading purpose.

[1hole]

Land, you give good scale accuracy info. While your sample base of only three scales is small your test results are quite similar to mine, with about ten scales tested over a period of about ten years, ending about 25 years ago.

In several home moves, my records have been lost and my memory bank is broken, so I reported here that the max error rate I had found was less than 0.2 gr; your test figures jog my memory that my scale's error rate was actually only about a tenth of that.

Not that it matters but your RCBS 505 and 1010 scales were made by Ohaus. My tests included scales from four makers but there was no accuracy difference.

I believe all of the reloading scales tested by both of us were so good, so close to zero error, that concern over them is little more than a mental exercise in trivia.

Bottom line, I'm comfortable using a single Sierra bullet as a confirming accuracy quick-check weight. Of course, business people are quite happy to sell anything, including costly scale test weight sets, to anyone willing to pay for them.

[onelight]

I had a Lyman scale , Lee scale and RCBS scale so I would check them against each other to make sure they were on. All three would measure for our purpose the same but the Lyman had the best dampening of the 3 and also had the small scale at the end of the pointer that I liked. The Lee had the least amount of dampening so I sold it along with a couple of presses. A friend did not have a balance beam scale so I gave him the RCBS he liked it so much that he gave me his electronic scale because he was not going to use it any more . When I tried to compare the electronic to the Lyman they rarely matched..... so I bought another electronic then I had 3 that didn't match .
So at that point I bought a set of RCBS check weights and now have peace of mind :) but any thing of a known weight in the range you consider critical would work as well.
Electronic scales are handy to have so I kept them , but I don't adjust powder measures with them, and has been pointed out they are useless to try to trickle into , at least the ones I have are.
One more thing to keep in mind about scales is if you bump it or move it don't forget to zero it again before using .

[The Dove]

Bingo ioon44! I couldn't have set it better!

The Dove

[Shawlerbrook]

Yes, a good balance beam scale and my check weights have never let me down.

[besk]

As to beam balances, I will quote an earlier post from USCRA112 : "Another factor can be the sharpness of the knife-edges on which the beam rests. They must be clean and sharp, and the anvils on which they rest must be clean, or you'll get some linearity error, and it won't be consistent across the entire measuring range."

And add that the balance should be stored with the knife-edge OUT of the anvil to avoid wear.

[farmbif]

I guess ive been lucky getting good scales, I use 2, both much older, a 505 RCBS and a Lyman m5, they have always been spot on accurate as long as they are level.
when Lyman went to plastic base scales things changed I guess, I had a couple bought on clearance but they are long gone.
got a little digital scale and its not accurate as the old ohaus beam scales. according to checks with those little aluminum tab check weights

[John Boy]

Troyboy, then answer this based on your statement about digital and won’t weigh lighter grains ... why do the two $45 digitals that I have with 0.02 gr accuracy weigh 2.1grs of Bullseye every time I trickle the powder into the pan from a Lee dipper for my 22rf reloads. And the same goes for 4.5 Swiss-Null B for the 22rfs?
PS, it’s the quality of the strain gauge in the digital

[1hole]

... why do the two $45 digitals that I have with 0.02 gr accuracy weigh 2.1grs of Bullseye every time I trickle the powder into the pan from a Lee dipper for my 22rf reloads.

Well ... I won't say no, but I really question that any $45 dollar digital would be usable and accurate to 20 thousants (0.020) of a grain! That's in the region of some delicate and very costly laboratory scales!

[uscra112]

There's a beeeg fluffy difference between readout resolution and accuracy!

[uscra112]

Y'know, one annoyance I have about my Ohaus beam balance is getting the little sheet-metal poise on the right hand end of the beam in the right notch. My eyes ain't what they once were, and last night I loaded a bunch of 9mm with 6.0 grains of Power Pistol instead of 6.1 grains that I intended. :???:

[1hole]

Are you trickling up handgun loads?

One tenth of a grain higher will be safe ... unless you're right on the crumbly edge of a KABOOM! Don't think being that much low will be detectable on the range.

[uscra112]

Answer yes, I'm weighing every charge. I got started handloading for some very hot rifle cartridges, developed a routine that I retain to this day, long after abandoning such high-risk endeavours. It's also interesting from the standpoint of evaluating how stable my RCBS measure is. Process control gaging for GM/Ford was my last career, and I still think that way. (If you're interested, it ordinarily meters Power Pistol within a tenth of a grain of nominal, i.e. +/-0.1 grain. Technique affects it. Level in the hopper does not, over a span of 100 charges. Worst trait it has is that the micrometer needs a friction lock. If I just graze it with my little finger it will move enough to change the charge a couple of tenths. If I weren't weighing every charge, I'd never know those things.)

The load was supposed to be 6.1 grains, but I actually loaded 6.0, so yes, it'll be safe, if a tiny bit limper than intended.

[1hole]

Interesting. I've trinkeled rifle loads for some 60 year. I'm a low volume shooter so that works for me. BUT, I load somewhat larger numbers of handgun ammo and have never trickeled any of those, it would take too long.

I dump charge my handgun loading trays full and then "eyeball" every charge under a bright light before seating to assure consistency. I (think) I can see any +/- variations greater than 0.1 and 0.2 gr. of most powders.

[GONRA]

1hole's eyeballing verks GREAT for most stuff. (Handy for avoiding DOUBLE CHARGING!!!)
BUT you cannot eyeball accurately WAY DOWN in looong cartridge cases.
For troublesome light charges - GONRA puts a small nail in the charged case.

[salpal48]

a very simple way to Check your scales . You do not need a set of weights . it sits in your Pocket. A modern US Nickel weighs in @ exactly 5 Grams Or 77.16 Grains. Just put one on The Electronic and see.
Set your Bean scale the same
Sal