Anyone try the new Graf & Sons BP?

[Maven]

I'll soon need to place a BP order and was wondering about the new Goex BP produced for Graf & Sons*. Any pros? cons?
Thanks in advance!


*previously produced by Wano (green label; red, white & blue "Schuetzen" label).

[Jniedbalski]

I would like to know also. I have been saving my last 1/2 pound of black for five years. And I really don’t want to shoot it up untill I get some more.

[djryan13]

Been using the Green label a while... Didn’t know there was a new label. Good to know next time I buy. In for answers.

[Chill Wills]

Maven wrote: I'll soon need to place a BP order and was wondering about the new Goex BP produced for Graf & Sons*. Any pros? cons?
Thanks in advance!

*previously produced by Wano (green label; red, white & blue "Schuetzen" label
************************************************** ****************
I think the new supplier is GOEX as of 2019 and I am guessing it would be their normal powder line and not from the Old Eynsford stock.

[Chill Wills]

BTW- the quote function did not work??????? I had to cut and paste.

Some of the buttons are locked up - like edit too???

[smithnframe]

Isn't Goex now owned by Hornady?

[arcticap]

Isn't Goex now owned by Hornady?

Hodgdon bought Goex in 2009.
That's the only recent sale of Goex that I can find.

[Maven]

All, The new, blue/gray labeled plastic containers are Goex. Here's a cut & paste from Graf's:

Product Information
As of 2019, Manufactured for Graf & Sons by Goex Powder Inc.
While Goex has improved manufacturing processes and material quality, they have manufactured black powder using traditional materials to provide the same great ignition characteristics and uniform speed that master shooters and hunters have relied on for over 200 years.

This FFg (or 2Fg) is suited for Muskets, Shotgun, Rifles (50-caliber and larger), Black Powder Cartridges, and large-bore Pistols.

[RU shooter]

Ok it's Goex powder but how and why is it cheaper than the regular red label Goex or are they phasing out the red label or OE brand ? Got to be a reason why it's cheaper ?

[Chill Wills]

Okay. It is good to know my memory is not completely gone.

I think the main line GOEX is good for general use in ML and plinking with cartridge guns.

[arcticap]

Ok it's Goex powder but how and why is it cheaper than the regular red label Goex or are they phasing out the red label or OE brand ? Got to be a reason why it's cheaper ?

Because Graf's has a contract where they order a ton of powder and have it put into containers with their name on it.
So they get a discounted price for ordering whole tons of it in advance.
That way, Graf's is not competing against Goex, but helping Graf's sell more Goex by giving the public a lower price.

[indian joe]

Okay. It is good to know my memory is not completely gone.

I think the main line GOEX is good for general use in ML and plinking with cartridge guns.

If Goex can get back anywhere close to what they made 25 years ago it will beat the pants off Wano

[Sven205]

I've been curious of this as well.

Got a few pounds last month but haven't opened any yet to compare to the regular GoEx.

[smithnframe]

Hodgdon bought Goex in 2009.
That's the only recent sale of Goex that I can find.

I knew it started with an "H" .......thanks!

[John Boy]

Product Information

As of 2019, Manufactured for Graf & Sons by Goex Powder Inc.
While Goex has improved manufacturing processes and material quality, they have manufactured black powder using traditional materials to provide the same great ignition characteristics and uniform speed that master shooters and hunters have relied on for over 200 years.

This FFg (or 2Fg) is suited for Muskets, Shotgun, Rifles (50-caliber and larger), Black Powder Cartridges, and large-bore Pistols.
Maven,this is 'stretch of promotion' about the Goex powder produced for Graf & Sons. Unless it is Olde Eynsford FFg which is nothing more than the same processing steps as plain Goex FFg using yellow maple instead of Alder Buckthorn, that Schuetzen uses for charcoal ... Olde E' is nothing more than "juiced" up FFg with more 30 mesh AND 40 & 50 mesh added to raise the velocity
An astute buy of the "new" Graf & Sons FFg powder ...is to call and ask them if the new powder is plain Goex FFg or Olde Eynsford FFg. And BTW, the best Goex FFg ever produced and now discontinued was Goex Cartridge. Shot over 2 cases in BPCR reloads

Olde E FFg Density Test: Three samples locked at 100gr volumetric - powder vibrated and then weighed on a digital scale, accurate to x.02gr:
1.5Fg - 1.0219 avg
FFG - 1.0283 avg
FFFg - 1.0824 avg

Sieve Ratio
Olde E FFg:
20 mesh - 62.81% Hold verses 80% Hold
30 mesh - 32.32% Hold
40 mesh - 04.27% Hold
50 mesh - 00.60% Hold
60 mesh - Trace

[John Boy]

I called Graf and Sons ... the "new" FFg powder is the Plain Goex FFg powder.
IMO- Your better buying the "old" Graf's Schuetzen FFg because it is processed better than plain Goex FFg and their charcoal is made from Alder Buckthron which has more glucose (sugar) in the branches and provides a better brisance on ignition

[arcticap]

The price for 5 pound's of Grafs is $105.40 delivered while the price for 5 lbs. of Shuetzen is $159.75 delivered from Powder, Inc.
Any perceived difference in quality means paying $31.95 per pound for Schuetzen Vs. $21.08 per pound for Graf's.

DeeTV posted on 3/15/2020, "I tried the Wano supplied Graf powder several pounds worth over the past couple of years and was not impressed with it. It is an acceptable inexpensive plinking powder; nothing wrong with that, but regular Goex and especially Old Eynsford bested it for accuracy and consistentcy. I want to try the Goex supplied powder this year." --->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/grafs-powder-made-by-goex-now.119958/#post-1641609

[John Boy]

arcticap - you may want to check prices at Buffalo Arms ... https://www.buffaloarms.com/black-powder-info
You'll be surprised at the price differences
I doubt that you are BPCR match shooter and your distances are not Mid @ 600yds and Long @ 1000 yards matches

[arcticap]

arcticap - you may want to check prices at Buffalo Arms ... https://www.buffaloarms.com/black-powder-info
You'll be surprised at the price differences

That's good to know.
However shipping and hazmat for 5 lbs to my state would cost $43.93 for a total of $141.93.
That's still $28.38 per pound.



I doubt that you are BPCR match shooter and your distances are not Mid @ 600yds and Long @ 1000 yards matches

What does that have to do with the price of rice?
Just because some folks prefer Goex over Wano?
And some other folks can't even distinguish any difference between the two.
If I were shooting long range matches I'd probably use Swiss like many champion shooters do.

Try reading Post #3 of this thread about the poor quality of Wano powder when it first came out. --->>> https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/wano-black-powder.96727/
Perhaps they've improved since then, but it shows that there's more to black powder performance than simply the type of charcoal that it's made with.

[indian joe]

I shot Wano alongside Moosic made Goex 20 odd years ago - the Goex seemed to have more velocity and definitely shot cleaner for me - found a friend with a chronograph to test it and we got near enough to 100FPS slower with the Wano in 44/40 cartridge and a 44 frontloader (this was 5FA Goex against FFFg Wano)
I still have some of the Goex and two years back I bought a can of Wano PPP and repeated the test with my 44/40 (35 grains by weight of each) near enough to the same result 100FPS less velocity from the Wano .
nothing wrong with Wano if its all you can get - we shot Chinese fireworks powder for several years because that was all was available - similar velocity to the wano - half the price - heaps dirty though. Wano is consistent its just slow and its not particularly clean. My comments here apply to Goex made in the Moosic plant before it blew mid '90's .

[sharps4590]

And BTW, the best Goex FFg ever produced and now discontinued was Goex Cartridge. Shot over 2 cases in BPCR reloads


John Boy, that entire post was enlightening but this sentence particularly caught my attention. I have to agree 100% and refine that even further by saying the first lot was the best of the Cartridge.

I have had excellent results with OE in small cases, 25-20 in a re-chambered Rook Rifle and 44-40 in an Uberti '73 rifle. Along with paper patching the bullet, OE also gave good results in my old Reilly 500 BPE. Something I couldn't achieve with any other powder, including Swiss, without duplexing.

[waksupi]

I've been told this guy has powder cheap when bought bulk.

BEAR RIVER POWDER Black Powder available in all granulations Pinnacle Powder Black Dawge Cartridges Muzzleloading Supplies Craig Kirkland-GOEX Master Distributor P.O. Box 2853-Evanston, WY 82931 (307) 679-0886 bearriverpowder@allwest.net

[brewer12345]

I bought some of the Grafs 3F and have shot it. It shoots reasonably well for my purposes. I think Olde E is better and cleaner, but if you are plinking there is nothing wrong with the Grafs.

[LabGuy]

Ok it's Goex powder but how and why is it cheaper than the regular red label Goex or are they phasing out the red label or OE brand ? Got to be a reason why it's cheaper ?

Same reason as Winchester 231 and Hodgdon HP-38, same powder, same plant, same lot numbers, 231 cost more.

[Maven]

Thanks, brewer!