Do you really need a filler for the M1 w/ H4895 for cast?

[M1fuzz]

Hello. Again I am a long time lurker and now new member. I have shot cast for about 18 years. Got away from it for a couple and now coming back.

I am a Garand nut. Want to try cast in one of my Garands. I plan on using my 6 digit Springfield that is stock that I use for CMP matches. I used a decent out to 200 yard lighter recoiling load that guys at the CMP seem to enjoy 110 grain Sierra Varmiter with 47 grains of IMR3031. Had good luck with that load.

Well that barrel is now free of copper and going to be used for cast. I am going to use the old stand by 311299 sized to .311. After seeing the many post here on the Garand I plan on using my 8 lbs. of H4895 start with 34.5 grains and go up to 36 grains to see what is the best. I know some use Dacron filler. Is that necessary? How about barrel tipping?

Thank you in advance.

[Larry Gibson]

Is it necessary? That will depend on the type of shooting and what is allowed on the ranges you shoot at. If you are content with M2 Ball accuracy +/- then the filler isn't necessary. However if you want the best possible accuracy as in shooting "matches" then I think you'll find the filler will give better accuracy. With the filler I find in working up loads in 30-06 M1s starting at 28 gr with H4895 and working up 1 gr at a time that best accuracy comes just where functioning is 100% reliable.

As to tipping it works after the round is chambered but with the M1 and 4895 w/o a filler I find just a slight shaking of the rifle settles the powder and gives better uniformity of internal ballistics and accuracy than does tipping. Some ranges do not allow tipping of the muzzle skyward. Also w/o the filler if the M1 is used in the semi-auto role then the position of the powder is hap hazard and usually just M2 Ball accuracy is attainable. With a filler the accuracy remains stable regards of how the rifle is used.

[M1fuzz]

Excellent thank you.

My range allows tipping. But, w/ “just a shake” that makes it a lot easier. I plan on doing CBA bench rest and CMP shoots. So, the filler or the shake work just fine because I am on the bench and have plenty of time. CMP shoots on the other hand I will have to use filler or deal w/ M2 ball accuracy.

[Gewehr-Guy]

M1fuzz, will you be shooting at the Hawkeye in Sioux City ? I've been there for a couple of matches, lots of fun. Welcome to the forum.

[M1fuzz]

Yes I will. It is my “home” range.

[samari46]

A good 300 meter load is the Sierra 125 grain spitzer flat base with 36 to 40 grains IMR 4895. Do not exceed 40 grains. No special cases needed but I used a bunch of lake City 67 and got great accuracy and very little recoil. Load data was given to me by the NRA years back. This was in a 1903A3 Springfield. When I posted this load data a few members here chimed in and with slight variations was almost the same data. Haven't tried it in my Garand but I see no reason why it should not work. Frank

[georgerkahn]

M1fuzz -- Although I've read about barrel tipping -- a practice mandated in years back to British, to insure powder drop in front of primer -- I've never experimented with it.
In my cast loading for my M1, I use same bullet, complemented with a slightly lighter load of same powder -- H4895 as you do. I have used a product called Puff-lon Lubricating Ballistic Filler with mixed success. ( http://www.pufflon.com/newfront.html ) The stuff works well in keeping powder where you want it -- adjacent to flash hole -- but, frankly, I find it a teeny-tad kind of a mess-maker. The "good" is it actually seems to keep my barrel cleaner and shinier than shooting same load without it. The "bad" (my ONLY "dis") is that after a range session, albeit very easily removed, there are teeny-tiny flecks of the stuff all over everything! :) HOWEVER -- for what it's worth, I both like and continue to use the stuff.
In past charting with my Oehler 35P chronograph, there appears to be a noticeable increase in round consistency -- a reduction of ES -- in my M1 loads using this additive. Our hi-power season starts 10 June -- and, with a new LabRadar chrony -- I definitely will be charting both my cast reloads, as well as jacketed bullet rounds -- and may glean new data.
geo

[M1fuzz]

Ok. Thanks. Another question. What OAL are you guys using in your M1’s with 311299 bullets? Thank you in advance.

[dale2242]

Larry Gibson is the filler expert here on CB.
At his recommendation, I use 1 gr. of dacron filler in medium size bottle neck cases with cast with medium burn rate powder.
32 gr of 4895 or 4064 in my M1 will shoot better than my ball equivalent jacketed loads.
I just shot a ragged hole group with my granddaughters 7MM-08 at 50 yds with H4198, a Saeco 145 gr cast bullet, and 1 gr. of dacron.
Adding filler slows the loading process some but will pay off in accuracy....dale

[Outpost75]

+1 on what Larry said.

[putnro01]

What happens to the dacron filler? Does it melt and get pushed out? Melt and build up? Wind up as a tuft of polyfill down range? Pros Cons of dacron vs. 1/4 sheet TP?

[Larry Gibson]

With "normal cast bullet loads of medium pressure levels the dacron does not burn but is shredded. sometimes you can see it drift down in front of the muzzle of if the wind is coming toward you it will drift back over you and the bench. On HV/higher psi loads the dacron may be shredded just to much as I've never found any residue left of it. Never found any melted on base of recovered bullets either.

[sureYnot]

Larry Gibson, if you don't mind one more question...
At what case fill percentage do you reckon a filler begins making a difference?
I imagine a case at 98% full will see no benefit.
I'm interested to know where you draw the line.
Thank you.

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[Larry Gibson]

80%...…..or less. That is with powders and bullets that can benefit from a filler. Not all powders, even with load density below 80% need or really benefit from a filler. The bullet weight/mass also plays into the equation. Best to read my post in the "sticky" for a full and better understanding; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

[sureYnot]

80%...…..or less. That is with powders and bullets that can benefit from a filler. Not all powders, even with load density below 80% need or really benefit from a filler. The bullet weight/mass also plays into the equation. Best to read my post in the "sticky" for a full and better understanding; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillersTyvm

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[303Guy]

Sometimes dacron will melt into a small bead. It takes specific conditions for that to happen. If I remember correctly, it's the same conditions that will set cotton wool filler alight. I just don't remember what those conditions are.

I have difficulty with the notion that dacron can somehow cause chamber ringing or do any damage. I have been able to produce a low pressure load that had high pressure in the neck of the case. I know about this because the particular chamber has rust pits in the neck area and this load expanded the necks into those pits. A normal full power load does not do that. I know the pressure is low because firstly there just wasn't enough powder to create high pressure plus the primer showed very little sign of pressure as in the primer indent hardly filled out. No dacron was involved, it was wheat bran and one of the fastest burning powders. Do not use a filler when using small charges of fast powder. Dacron is not used as a filler, it is used to position the powder and should not be tamped down over the powder to form a wad. Nor should any filler or positioner.

I'm wondering whether the tests that showed dacron as the chamber ringing culprit used the dacron as a tamped down wad over the powder. Perhaps that could result in the dacron melting into a wad which might cause issues?