Forming 577 Snider

[tmanbuckhunter]

I've searched, but I'm curious about one thing. I have heard where guys will form 577 Snider without dies, but rather cutting down 24ga brass cases to the desired length, and fire-forming the brass with a 58 Caliber Minie ball or a slug, and then loading as normal with a .600 diameter bullet. What is the preferred method here?

[jugulater]

If the chamber will accept the unsized brass it should be fine. i wouldnt even bother with the .58 minies, just load them up with .600 balls and shoot it.

but it depends on the gun. most nepalese guns have generous chambers and will present no problem. i have very little experience with proper British Sniders or other guns in the caliber.

i load .577 Snider with 60grn of Fg using Foam window backer rod as filler with a .600 caliber ball on top, then i dip the loaded round in SPG. My Nepalese Snider shoots very well using this method.
i do use lathe turned brass, so i imagine a larger charge may be needed using the balloon head shotgun shells.

one last thing, i have to neck size my brass as after firing the .600 roundball will simply fall right in, so you may end up needing a sizing die anyways.

[tmanbuckhunter]

If the chamber will accept the unsized brass it should be fine. i wouldnt even bother with the .58 minies, just load them up with .600 balls and shoot it.

but it depends on the gun. most nepalese guns have generous chambers and will present no problem. i have very little experience with proper British Sniders or other guns in the caliber.

i load .577 Snider with 60grn of Fg using Foam window backer rod as filler with a .600 caliber ball on top, then i dip the loaded round in SPG. My Nepalese Snider shoots very well using this method.
i do use lathe turned brass, so i imagine a larger charge may be needed using the balloon head shotgun shells.

one last thing, i have to neck size my brass as after firing the .600 roundball will simply fall right in, so you may end up needing a sizing die anyways.

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to be shooting a proper british Snider. I see a lot of people recommending a .600 diameter or larger bullet regardless of where the rifle came from. I did see a video of a guy loading 577 Snider and he did exactly what I mentioned. He seated the bullets by hand on top of the powder column. His column consisted of a charge of 2f black, corn meal, an over powder wad, and then hand seating of the projectile using just the lubricant to hold the bullet in the case. I'm actually loading my blackpowder 45/70's in a similar manner, except no corn meal obviously. Compress with a compression die and overpowder wad, and seat the bullets by hand with a mild roll crimp to hold everything in place.

[swamp]

To try it, you might use 24 ga. plastic hulls.
swamp

[jugulater]

Sounds like you're pretty well set. all sniders run on the fat side when it comes to groove diameter it seems. Fg/FFg is a personal preference thing, i prefer Fg in larger cases as it takes up more space.

Corn meal is also a fine filler in the .577 snider as the straight wall case doesn't suffer from the issues with fillers that necked cases like the 577/450 do. you could rely on the lube to hold the ball in the case if the fired shells allow it, depends on the gun ultimately.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I make my 577 Snider from 24ga Magtec brass, first trim to 2.00" then three gradule passes in the FLS die to form the shoulder. The virgin brass at 0.625" is way to oversized to hold a 'minnie'.

I have both standard sniders and the "Super Snider" an custom built Martini Henry with a new Walther barrel. I load a 620gn boolit over 92gns of Wano 2P.

https://i.imgur.com/BjFrv4sl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0b7mFCpl.jpg

[djryan13]

Sounds like you're pretty well set. all sniders run on the fat side when it comes to groove diameter it seems. Fg/FFg is a personal preference thing, i prefer Fg in larger cases as it takes up more space.

Corn meal is also a fine filler in the .577 snider as the straight wall case doesn't suffer from the issues with fillers that necked cases like the 577/450 do. you could rely on the lube to hold the ball in the case if the fired shells allow it, depends on the gun ultimately.

Good tip about Fg... not sure why I didn’t think of that.

Rather than corn meal alone, I mix a 50/50 corn meal to BP as a filler. First, I put in my charge (it’s been years and my load book is in the workshop so don’t recall). Then I fill case with the corn meal/BP mix. Then compress/seat.

There are some folks (and I don’t know enough to refute) who say corn meal alone in that big case causes issue in the barrel. I don’t recall the details but it made sense so I went with the suggestion of 50/50 - again, only at the top.

Gosh, I haven’t shot that thing in about 6 years. I need to get it out next weekend!

[yulzari]

Save yourself all the trouble and get the cases from Martyn at xringservices at xringservices@yahoo.com. Not that much more than the bare cases and cut and formed to fit. I have used nothing else and none have ever failed (except the one I hit with a hammer by accident.

[DxieLandMan]

Save yourself all the trouble and get the cases from Martyn at xringservices at xringservices@yahoo.com. Not that much more than the bare cases and cut and formed to fit. I have used nothing else and none have ever failed (except the one I hit with a hammer by accident.


He's who I use. Never had any problem with any of his brass. Always quality brass and service.

[djryan13]

Save yourself all the trouble and get the cases from Martyn at xringservices at xringservices@yahoo.com. Not that much more than the bare cases and cut and formed to fit. I have used nothing else and none have ever failed (except the one I hit with a hammer by accident.

The hammer test is for coated bullets, not cases. :oops:

[fgd135]

To try it, you might use 24 ga. plastic hulls.
swamp

Swamp, there just seems to be absolutely no plastic 24 gauge hulls for sale anywhere right now, in fact for the last year or two.
Do you have a source?

[tmanbuckhunter]

Save yourself all the trouble and get the cases from Martyn at xringservices at xringservices@yahoo.com. Not that much more than the bare cases and cut and formed to fit. I have used nothing else and none have ever failed (except the one I hit with a hammer by accident.

I actually sent him an email last night, and will be going in that direction. The price of his 577/450 brass has me thinking of picking up two old rifles to add to the collection.

[jugulater]

Xring services is highly respected for quality products, you can not go wrong there.

The 577/450 is a different animal to load for as Corn meal filler can be problematic in the large necked case.

if you plan to load for the Martini Henry you should do some reading and question asking on The British Militaria forums about the use of foam backer rod as filler. i also suggest Cast Bullet Engineering’s mould that replicates the original MH boolit.

Link- https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/

[swamp]

I got mine from BPI. Ballistic Products Inc. Haven't checked to se if they are in stock. Just checked BPI and both brands they carry are out of stock.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Xring services is highly respected for quality products, you can not go wrong there.

The 577/450 is a different animal to load for as Corn meal filler can be problematic in the large necked case.

if you plan to load for the Martini Henry you should do some reading and question asking on The British Militaria forums about the use of foam backer rod as filler. i also suggest Cast Bullet Engineering’s mould that replicates the original MH boolit.

Link- https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/britishmilitariaforums/
Thanks. I wasn't planning on using corn meal because of the bottle neck, but backer rod wasn't on the list either. I can see how that would work well though!


Pulled the trigger on a very nice Snider, now for the wait. I have a mystery alloy I mixed up a few weeks ago out of a bunch of alloy I had laying around to make use of it; scrap in small quantities that when combined gave me 100lbs of usable alloy. It's antimonial, although how much I'm not sure, but it tests out at 13-14ish BHN. It's running well out of my trapdoor over a decent charge of 2F, and obviously great out of the smokeless guns, and fills out a mold real well. I'm wondering how well it will work in a Snider. I'm all out of pure for the next month or so.

[KCSO]

The Lee dies over size the 577 rounds for most rifles. But the 24 Ga brass cases do need some sizing to fit in the chamber. I size first in the lee die and then use a 595 round ball over powder and cream of wheat filler to fire form the cases. Then I reload with 600 diameter bullets for the real deal rounds. I have had no accuracy in shooting the 58 Minnie balls in the 577. My 577 has a 595 bore and still shoots 600 bullets just fine. My load is 65 grains of FFg or Fg Black powder and filler to the base of the bullet. I shoot Swiss an only compress firm with a wooden dowel. A card wad over the corn meal or cow and a grease cookie under the bullet. The original rounds that I had were Dominion and had a 578 bullet with a plug in the base and a wad of fibre of some sort and about 70 grains of what looked to be f or ffg black.

[fgd135]

My 3 band Sniders shoot accurately with Xring .600" 520 grain and 440 grain bullets cast in pure lead. I don't even neck size the CBC cases after fire forming.

[pworley1]

I make mine from 24 ga brass shot shells. My 577 sizing die reduces the brass way too much, I just use the crimp die and shoot minnie balls.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

A mystery to me but that is what makes shooting these old originals so interesting.

No mystery, just enjoy the results with a 150 year old rifle.

https://i.imgur.com/l5VdvCLl.jpg

[tmanbuckhunter]

No mystery, just enjoy the results with a 150 year old rifle.

https://i.imgur.com/l5VdvCLl.jpg

Nothing to complain about with that target.

Shot my trapdoor today 300 yards to get ready in anticipation for the Snider to come from the Great White North. Man, I'm excited!
263088

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The boolit mould is supplied by Cast Bullet Engineering and it is a 420gn semi-wadcutter that drops from the mould at 0.590"

https://i.imgur.com/YpmZoyml.png

[tmanbuckhunter]

That 13-14 BHN seems too hard but it may depend on diameter of bullet vs groove diameter of your bore. Interesingly, I have a MK III with a nice condition bore and the 48" twist and it shoots the RCBS N-S Minie very well. Using Mag T cutoff brass, with large pistol magnum primers, about 67 gr FF and pure lead .584" Minies lubed with SPG and felt wads for filler. The tricky part is sizing the brass to hold the bullet well enough to be practical. The Lee die and neck expander works OK for the .584" Minie but it's a tad tight for best size for the Accurate Mold 445B flat base "Snider" bullet sized to .597". Have to really pay attention to adjusting the sizer for just a nudge for decent case fit of the .597" bullet. If everything works right, these can be very accurate rifles... at least my MK III is. But I have no experience with the earlier, slow twist converted musket versions. And as with all these military muskets/rifles of this era they shoot way too high at 50 yards. Mine shoots about 11" high at 50 yards with a fine bead and original front sight height. I built a saddle sight and epoxied it onto the front sight to raise it so my POI now is closer to POA at 50.
My primary concern, although probably a little silly, is excess wear on the iron bore, or excess pressure (really?) with the oversized bullet and the tapered bore with a 14bhn alloy. It really surprises me that my trapdoor shoots a 14bhn bullet so well with BP, but it does, and with a squeaky clean bore after the fact as well. I guess I can either hope I run across some pure Pb before the snider gets here, or cross my fingers and hope for the best.

[tmanbuckhunter]

That 14 BHN shouldn't be a concern for increasing pressure if the load is within a normal BP charge. And likewise be of no concern about extra wear. I think some filler materials and the powder itself accelerating though the throat would cause more wear than most any lead alloy. I use and prefer a BHN of near 6 for most all these type applications. The reason for using a soft alloy is to help assure full rifling engagement through skirt expansion (Minie) or shank obturation (flat base conical) thus increasing the chances for best accuracy. The skirt of a Minie needs to fully expand into the grooves to take spin and seal bore for best results. A conical, if slightly under full groove diameter, also needs to expand some via obturation to take spin and seal the bore. Softer alloys best allow those expansion processes to take place. The quicker this happens after ignition the better.

I'm probably not going to get much over 65grs of 2F. I can't see any benefit to the mild velocity increase and the increase in cost. The charge I'm currently running in my trapdoor is 63. Like I said, it's strange this 14bhn alloy shoots so well, but I am shooting a hollow base bullet that drops out of the mold .002 over groove diameter and is throat diameter, so it's not too surprising. I'll see what happens with the Snider. I'm not against paying for pure galena until I can find some more cheap galena.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Yes, makes sense with the trapdoor... sized to throat diameter will not require expansion or bump up.... good to go so to speak. I've loaded and shot all manner of original BP cartridge guns and the Snider is a different beast for sure. It'll be interesting to hear how it shoots.
You fellas will be the first to know. It'll likely be July by the time I fire it. Between the delays in mail, and waiting on brass, it's going to be a minute. I think with with the .600 diameter x-ring services bullet, I'm probably going to be just fine regardless of my alloy. Whether or not I can get that 1:72 twist to shoot that bullet though? That's a different story. I'll be fire-forming the brass with a .595 round ball first.

[tmanbuckhunter]

50 Pieces of X-Ring services 24ga formed 577 Snider brass is here, the 60-535-XR is here, the .595 fire-forming round balls are here, and I got 150lbs of fresh mixed up 25:1 ready to rock and roll. Rifle will be here from Canadiaganistan on Monday. Sleep? I haven't seen that in days!

[tmanbuckhunter]

Seeking guidance from the village elders. The rifle is here, it looks great, and I'm excited. I decided to go ahead and get busy on loading my ammo tonight. I weighed out roughly 60gr of 2F by volume, put a.025 card wad on top of that, and then took a 3.1CC dipper of corn meal and dumped that on top, put a .025 card wad on top of that and pressed it until it stopped, and then took my .595 roundball and pushed it down on top of the wad. The cornmeal will compress very easily I'm finding. This looks funny to me and it's very strange, but there is no airgap. Before I load anymore and put a plug of SPG on top of this, re-evaluate, or send it? I'm thinking stacking about 5 or 6 card wads would get the ball much closer to flush with the case mouth.

Also, 24ga wads are too small. I have a whole crap ton if any needs them. I'm going to load these 50 and use them, and then order some 20ga wads. I'm not worried about mixing of powder and filler for now.

Please ignore my scalded hand. Hot coffee is more dangerous than loading BPCR.

EDIT: I decided to load one more, but I stacked 6 .025 card wads this time on top of the filler. Here are the measurements.

One card wad: .106 from case mouth
Six card wads: .025 from case mouth.

My thought process is really neither matters, because I'm going to fill up a silicone baking sheet full of SPG and then stick each one in it once the SPG cools and cut the lube like a cookie cutter, so ease case will be full of lube.

Is that better? Proceed? Tear them down? I'll wait... :lovebooli
263984
263985

[tmanbuckhunter]

:D doesn't really matter where the ball is as long as there is no air gap in the column. You could load 5 or so as you describe then load 5 more with a little lube dabbed on top of the ball then load 5 more by adding a wad or two to increase the stack height to get the ball up near the rim of the mouth. That would give three combinations to test for accuracy. If none are up to expectations, no loss since they will all fire form the brass. I would at least swab pretty well between each 5 shot string so fouling doesn't bias the results.
10/4 my good sir, thank you. I'm not too worried about accuracy with these. They're just to get the brass fire-formed so I can move on to my X-ring Services bullet. These dang .595 round balls were way pricier than anything I can cast.

I'm going to continue with the stack of 6... try to use up some of these 24ga wads so I can justify ordering a bag of 20ga wads. They're fine but once you get past the case mouth they just drop in. Once the brass gets fire-formed I imagine that will get worse.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Good info. I'm probably SOL on trimming these as I don't have a small lathe.

I found that my flaring die actually works well for seating these round balls and it also allows me to get a little bit of compression on the powder column. My X-ring services bullet has about .310 from base to the top driving band where I want to put a slight roll crimp on, so I may move to .125 thickness card wads, 20ga. This should allow me to get a good stack high enough to seat my bullet without having to stack too many thin wads. I'm finding it is much easier to load for my trapdoor than it is this thing. This is going to take some experimentation.

I really appreciate all the information. I'm not shooting in the dark, but there are definitely some shadows here I'm trying to shine some light on.

[tmanbuckhunter]

The most metal/manly chapstick I have ever seen in my life. SPG on top of the roundball. Going to get all this fire-formed and move onto my X-ring services 530gr boolit as well as thicker wads. I'll report back next week. Here is a picture of the Snider with my 1884 (1887) trapdoor. 1862 lock dated Mk2*.
264005264006
264007

[tmanbuckhunter]

No worries with that lube on top. It will not act as any kind of obstruction and it's mass is not significant compared to mass of total load. The melt temp of SPG is fairly low and it is less dense than many lubes. I imagine it will keep the fouling soft. :D

One thing that may help shed some light on consistency and accuracy potential when developing these loads is to shoot over fairly clear ground out in front of muzzle and try to find all the various elements in the wad stack from different shots. For example if one wad is found 5 yds in front of muzzle and another is found at 40 yds it indicates that some of the wad column is "taking a ride" with the projectile. Most should be separating fairly quickly and falling away from the bullet/ball track to be found no more than 5-10 yds in front of muzzle. Sometimes, with experimental load tinkering, I find a thick wad all the way down range near the target... that occasional hitchhiker can't enhance accuracy.
I really like SPG. It's expensive, but it smells nice, and it melts easy in the microwave. I keep about 3lbs in a huge mason jar.

You are right about wads hitch hiking. I try to wipe lube off of bases when loading with BP to prevent that. With smokeless I don't care at all. I have issues with my hollow base bullets filling up with lube and the wads wanting to hitch hike. I'm hoping my new 500gr. mold for my trapdoor will prevent that. Much easier to clean lube off the base when you don't have to dig it out.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Cast up about 200 X-Ring 60-530XR's today. I cleaned the rifle as well, and even though it appears to be rust free and clean, it took me a while to get the bore clean. There is some pretty decent pitting midway thru, and I finally got it to the point where the wet patches come out with some light tinge of orange mixed in with the solvent. The exterior the barrel appears rust free but it took several scrubs with wet patches to get the dirt/gunk/rust off. I'm having to remind myself constantly that even though it's a nice rifle, it's not immaculate and almost unissued like my trapdoor. It was an original 1862 P53 rifle musket, and has probably been put up wet a few times. The bore is still shootable and I think the rifle is still as it was described by the seller. We'll see. Maybe it will shoot really well? If not, maybe it's an excuse to buy another example.
264105264106

[tmanbuckhunter]

That bore may shoot very well- hard to say. Seems to have plenty of land definition remaining. The issue that seems to be a constant for bores that are a little rough is that they are harder to clean and that difficulty is in proportion to the roughness. When shooting BP those areas tend to beget enlarging such areas unless care is taken to clean and oil very well.

My Snider has a pretty nice bore but does have a couple of small rough spots about 4 inches from muzzle yet I think it shoots about as well as any. It and likely most all Sniders in general are not MOA rifles. I see on various sources the best groups on target seem to be about 4 inches at 100 yds. The best I can do consistently at 50 yds is about 1.5 inches. The open sights really limit best sight picture and sight/target resolution at 100 yds, so I shoot mostly at 50. Seems to be the best compromise for accurate shooting and load testing. After all, if basic sight resolution is poor then it becomes impossible to objectively sort out most accurate loads. Here's a pic of bore in my MK III. Good, representative pics of bores are always very difficult :)
I'm not expecting too much. 4" was what I was hoping for after some stringent load development and I think this bore is likely capable of it. What I'm hoping is that the pitting that is there will strip off some lead to fill in the pits, and then once I run a patch over it, it will polish the lead out and I'll never see it again. Wishful thinking I know, but a guy can wish. On my BP guns I always melt SPG in a spoon, soak a patch, and then run it down the bore. It's worked well so far. Before I got into BPCR I used to do the same thing with Ox Yoke wonderlube.

I got another picture of the bore for my own purposes, but I figure I'll share. Used the light on my phone and my ol' ladies phone to take the pic. The lands and grooves are still well defined. It is my understanding that the P53 3 groove rifling isn't cut very deep to begin with. If you rotate your finger around the muzzle you can feel the lands and grooves with ease. I took one of my reject 60-530XR's and tapped it into the muzzle and it cut well defined land/groove markings into the ogive. I'm going to get it to the range tomorrow morning. I can't wait any longer.
264111264112

[tmanbuckhunter]

Alright, so I shot this thing today. It actually shoots very well, but the roundballs will not stabilize to shoot well much beyond 50 yards. It took me a few shots to figure out where it was shooting and I eventually had to move down to someones left over mansized silhouette at 50 to figure it out. The 300gr. roundball shoots about a foot high. In the picture I'm about to attach, you will see a cluster of shots towards the head. This is where I figured out where it was shooting, but I didn't have a point of aim. The bottom group I tried to concentrate on were I thought the bottom of the target was, and was able to get a real tight cluster, almost one ragged hole for about 6 or 7 shots with a few flyers when my eyes would get fuzzy. I think the 530gr bullet will come down considerably and allow me to use a 6 o clock hold on an NRA SR-1 to get the best groups possible when I work up a load. I'm happy!

264138

[tmanbuckhunter]

Nothing at all wrong with that shooting! If the conical POI is also too high, the only solution I know of, short of irreversibly altering sights, would be to add height to the front sight. I fabricated a "saddle" type extension and JB Welded it to the front. The POA and POI are now about the same for most loads in my Snider at 50 yds.

Yeah, I'm very happy with it so far. I was a little disappointed that the roundball would fly off by the time it got to 100 yards. A man sized steel dinger was as good as it gets, which is where I'm sure the conical will hold its proverbial feces together over the roundball. I shoot a lot of old service and military rifles, so I'm used to them all shooting very high. I like your front sight extension though! That is a good idea. Britishmuzzleloaders on youtube solders brass onto his Snider front sights and then files them and shapes them down until the POI is where he wants it. Another idea in the long list of ideas.

I now have my eye on a Portugese contract carbine. Good god... these things are more addicting than Trapdoors.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Yes, I've done that type front sight extension with all manner of old military firearms that generally shoot very high as you have experienced. Even the blade on a trapdoor front sight can sometimes use a little extra height. That is relatively easy by fashioning a blade of correct thickness, shape and height then re-pinning.

Without a patch and being undersized to begin with, the roundball was acting kind of like being shot out of a smoothbore. Probably an unpredictable and variable knuckleball spin :)

That's exactly what I was thinking! Kid of like very risky baseball down at 100 yards. One thing that irritates me with this gun, but I guess it's par for the course, is the chamber has a very mild anomaly, I wouldn't call it a ring. It's a dip in the case, not a bulge, just below where a bullet would be seated. I imagine at some point in time this rifle got a decent pressure spike. I'm still going to shoot it since it's not a real ring but just a mild defect. I am going to change from corn meal to crushed walnut as my filler. My corn meal is more like powder and will compress.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Got 25 test rounds loaded up, from 60-64gr by weight, using a long drop tube on a No.55 measure, .025 card wad over the powder, 3.1cc of instant cream of wheat, and then a .125 nitrocard over the cream of wheat. I used my expander plug as a compression plug to make sure the wads were seated. No real compression on the filler or powder, just making sure any airgap is gone and then I took the expander plug by hand and rolled it around the case mouth until I could seat the bullet by hand, and then applied a mild roll crimp, VERY mild... more like a taper crimp. I'm a little nervous. I'm not the most experienced handloader in the world, only having done this about 12 years, although my round count is very close to 6 digits loaded and shot. My only experience with BP outside of a dismal failure with 45 colt about 10 years ago is with the 45/70, and I've had great success and luck with that cartridge. It's probably a good thing that I'm not overly confident with this. We shall see how these do tomorrow. I'm excited!

264214

[tmanbuckhunter]

Also interested in results! You might try to place backer exactly perpendicular to bore line and put target over a fresh section of cardboard. The reason is it helps makes it possible to gauge stable flight by carefully examining shape of holes. :)

That's a good idea, and I'll see what I can do. I'm going to try these at 100 yards, or at least the first 5 test loads and see what happens. If they keyhole, or wont group altogether I'll drop back to 50 yards. Britishmuzzleloaders on youtube did all of his Snider testing at 100 yards, so I think 100 should be reasonable. I'll use a 6 o clock hold on an SR-1 and see what happens.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Well I'm happy, and I think it can shoot even better than this. 62 and 63gr charges both showed similar group sizes, about 4-3/4 if you don't count the flyer. This is a very hard rifle to shoot accurately. Lock up time is on the slow side compared to a sharps or my trapdoor, the trigger is heavy, and the sights are crude, but for what it is, I'm thoroughly impressed. The 60-530XR thumps, but it's not too bad. The bullet shoots point of aim if you sink the front sight post down into the notch and aim dead on. I'm going to try to level the top of the front sight post with the v-notch and see if a 6 o clock hold will work next, giving me a more precise sight picture.

One thing I noticed when cleaning it up, is that, what I thought was rust, or pitting, is some kind of crud. Ballistol and water wont phase it, hoppes 9 won't phase it, and a brush wont do anything to it. The only thing that seems to "smear" it is surprisingly, ox yoke wonder lube plus liquid. I'm thinking someone shot it a few times and cleaned it with a petroleum cleaner. I may plug the bore and fill it up with Naptha and see if I can get the stuff to come loose.

Also, I shot this group with my trapdoor. 64gr shot similar. The flyer came from me swabbing the bore. One fouling shot and she settles down nicely. Used a blow tube between groups.

264282264283

[tmanbuckhunter]

That is really good shooting! Those who look at these need to keep everything in perspective. That perspective about the Snider must be compared in two ways to its predecessor the .577 Enfield Rifle Musket- (the arm generally comparable to the 58 cal US Springfield Rifle Musket). Must compare for both accuracy and efficient, rapid sustained fire in battle. By all historical accounts the Snider design did quite well in that context. In the race to convert from muzzleloading to cartridge, the US really didn't have an intermediate stopgap arm comparable to the Snider. The US pretty much settled on the Trapdoor at about the time the Brits standardized on the 577-40 M-H. Its cousin in time, the Rolling Block, was commonly used for foreign military contracts at about the same time. These crude and simplified historic perspectives about the transition form ML to cartridge are my own as stuck in my head about that period of history of military small arms.... open to correction for certain.

Also, looking at the holes I didn't see any obvious "wobble" indicated. If there is any, it's very small. And it is more normal and common than most suspect to have a tiny bit of wobble with bullets in this category of ammo and arm. But, those darn long nosed semi spire points don't lend themselves very well to the analysis- kind of tearing a hole and not punching out one :):) hah!

No telling what the odd crud is. Could it be a cumulative amalgam of lead?? The Naptha soak might work if it is some kind of petrol-based complex molecule. Interested to find out what works to cut it. The other. possibiity is a Kroil soak.

But I would say you are off to the races with that Snider. Congrats on the success- well done! And interesting you bring up lock time. They aren't the slowest but the geometry and mechanics of the short angled pin simply doesn't lend itself to fast lock time either. Therefore shooting technique and follow through can be important for shooting these accurately. I get the impression that, because the Snider is such a odd duck, it tends to be frustrating to many shooters and they never really get past the first few attempts if at first there is little success. It does have a reputation for being frustrating no end. Attitude is important I think with these and they should be viewed as a challenge, an educational opportunity if you will :D

I love collecting and shooting old rifles. They really make you appreciate the modern technology we have these days, and the level of skill it took to operate these old firearms and shoot them, especially efficiently. The Snider was probably a ferrari of rifles back in its day. For ease of use, and speed of loading, I don't think a Trapdoor or Werndl would have much on it. The M-H for sure would be faster than all of them. Indicative of a major empire vs a frontier army I suppose.

The bullets do fly straight. I took a slo-mo of me cracking one off in the Snider and when you pause it and go frame by frame very slowly you can see the bullet in flight, and it's running straight and true.

I thought the crud was leading, but you'd think a brush would strip at least a little bit off and it would show up on a patch; it doesn't. One observation I did notice when swabbing between groups, is that the fouling was WET. Melted SPG in a bore from firing is still almost paste like, keeping the fouling soft, but not melting and running like oil. This is what leads me to believe its BP fouling soaked in a petroleum cleaner. When it's cold, it's hard and doesn't do much, when it's hot, it melts and turns into oil. I mean, it straight up soaks a cotton patch.

Overall I'm happy. I always have fairly decent success when I take on a hard to load cartridge like the Snider. I heavily research it before hand, ask a lot of questions, and like Carl Sewell, I take what works for others and apply it to my own process. There are very few things I've found that don't work or me, that work well for others, so with that being said, I really appreciate all the info you have given as well as everyone else in this thread. It's invaluable and it's been a great time so far. I also have a Snider surprise up my sleeve to add to this thread... I'll post about it here soon. :-D


https://youtu.be/iVLkjgDHvf8

[tmanbuckhunter]

That's also the reason I enjoy learning and shooting the old originals. It really is the only direct link I have to that history and really understanding in a small way what it was like.

Here's some in my herd of originals (there are more!)- I shoot all of them, although very carefully! :) One of the most if not the most impressive to me is this particular M1841. It is either an anomaly or a limited production that has been mis-reported in the historic record. It's an original M1841 Whitney that all references I've seen describe exactly the rifle I have, including the 7 groove bore, EXCEPT, this one has 48" twist! All records and references I know of list all, including the contract models, as having the standard 72" slow twist based on the original Harper's Ferry pattern. One of the best comprehensive references for these type arms, American Military Arms by Moller also lists all 54 cal M1841s with a 72" twist. A mystery to me.

It consistently shoots the Lyman 533476 Minie extremely well. Indicating the barrel is striaght, the bore is sharp and smooth and IMO the 48" twist plays a major role in that accuracy with the Minie. By shooting this rifle I've learned exactly why it gained such favor with the Mississippi troops during the Mexican War. But it became a misfit just a few years later for the Civil War as the "rest of the world" had adopted the .577 or 58 cal rifle musket as standard. Top rifle in the pic.

Fantastic looking collection. I'd really like a 61 or 63 Springfield to add to the collection one day. I'm always on the look out for the right one. Strange on the twist rate. You have to wonder how that happened? Experiment maybe? Someone got bored?

Well, here is the Snider surprise. It is my understanding that there aren't many of these in the world, but that doesn't matter. It's going to get shot and hunted with either way. Hopefully I'll have it and 50 new pieces of brass in my hands shortly.
264294

[yulzari]

Fantastic looking collection. I'd really like a 61 or 63 Springfield to add to the collection one day. I'm always on the look out for the right one. Strange on the twist rate. You have to wonder how that happened? Experiment maybe? Someone got bored?

Well, here is the Snider surprise. It is my understanding that there aren't many of these in the world, but that doesn't matter. It's going to get shot and hunted with either way. Hopefully I'll have it and 50 new pieces of brass in my hands shortly.
264294
Snider Cavalry Carbine. I have had three through my hands in the past. Yours appears to be Portuguese. Not the most common Snider version but they regularly appear on the market. Handy in close country.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Snider Cavalry Carbine. I have had three through my hands in the past. Yours appears to be Portuguese. Not the most common Snider version but they regularly appear on the market. Handy in close country.
Close country is what it will live in, although I can't guarantee that it won't smack a gong at 2 or 300 yards here and there. I imagine the faster twist and 2 extra grooves makes these little guys shoot great.

Ah hah! Portuguese Cavalry Carbine. Very cool! BSA I assume? The total contract was only about 1200 I think so there just aren't many out there. We'll need full range report for this one also.

I'm assuming BSA, as I believe that is who fulfilled the contract. Full range report will be coming in ASAP. When I get my new 50 pieces I will fire-form them with the x-ring services bullet.

[KCSO]

Under 4 inch groups at 100 paces with the right load good on deer to over 100 if you can read the drop.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Under 4 inch groups at 100 paces with the right load good on deer to over 100 if you can read the drop.

Very true. I'd like to hunt with my long rifle this year but it's hard dragging a gun that long thru the thick brush of the East, TX piney woods. It's fine once you're 40' up the tree but getting there is the hard part.

[tmanbuckhunter]

While it's on my mind I want to ask. Anyone think I'll have trouble with that carbine and the .600 X-Ring bullet? It is my understanding that these carbines don't have the the same style of bore where it starts out large and gets smaller, and that it's consistent thru out. They aren't a true .575 are they? If so I may have a custom mold made based on the Lee REAL bullet. I'll definitely try the X-ring bullet first.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Good question. Since they are purpose built, hard to say. If so inclined, you could slug each end and compare. It takes a little doing but it's doable. Also, likely someone over on Brit militaria would know. To slug the muzzle end add some sizing lube to the bore and shorten, by pounding with a hammer, a conical so it is a few thous larger than estimated groove diameter. Drive it into the muzzle a couple inches then retrieve with a screw type ball puller. To slug the breech end insert a brass rod into chamber that is close to diameter of cartridge case or a steel rod that will fit into a cartridge case. This "solid cartridge case" should be about chamber length- so about 1.9" should work well. Close the breech. Push an un-expanded conical that is +/- bore diameter down to the end of the solid cartridge case in the chamber. Use a rod like a thick brass rod or even steel rod with a large flat brass jag on end to pound thus expand the conical slug sitting in the throat area. That should give an impression of throat and first part of bore and would indicate the bore and groove diameter at the breech end. Measure and compare muzzle end to breech end. That would tell story if it had progressive depth grooves or not. If the slug impression in the breech end is good enough it would indicate which size conical would likely work best- usually groove diameter up to maybe .001-.002" larger than groove diameter. Of course those who shoot the Cavalry Carbine would have direct experience input for what works best for them.
Well I asked em, and we'll see what they say. I am eager to slug the bore of this rifle. If it starts out at .600, or even .595, and tapers down to .577, I'm ok with shoving a .600 diameter bullet thru it. If it's a consistent .580, .585, or .590 all the way down it though, we'll have to get a new bullet. I'm not comfortable with that much of a size difference.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Yep, trying an inexpensive mold especially if you already have it is one thing. Investing in a custom or much more expensive mold that may not work or proves not to work is something else and gets old in a hurry- been there done that. :)

Most of the time I can feel if the bore of a rifle has progressive type rifling. It needs to be clean and requires a very tight, well lubed patch on a correct sized jag. I put the rifle in a gun vise. Lube a patch or doubled patch that will result in a very tight fit. I set the patch against the muzzle with the jag placed against it. I may have to tap the back of the cleaning rod with my palm to start the patch down the bore. I run the patch all the way to the breech end (works for both muzzleloaders and breech loaders where the action blocks rear entry... like the Snider. If the patch is tight enough, I can definitely feel the progressive depth grooves as the patch is tighter at the muzzle than at the breech end. Obviously, this tight patch system is qualitative and not quantitative- that would require slugging both ends.
That's a good idea, and I like it. A nice way to figure out what's going on in a pitch to satisfy a curiosity.

Ended up ordering some cerrosafe. I think I had 2lbs, but like a lot of stuff, it got lost in all the moving I've done in the last 7 years. I'll make a cast of the first inch of the rifling, the throat and the chamber. Should give me an idea. One person on British Militaria said his casted at .598 in the groove at the throat, but couldnt cram the x-ring 60-530XR in there. I'm not opposed to shoving that bad boy down in the case like a torpedo to make it work. lol

If for some reason the X-ring bullet won't work, I'm going to have Tom make me a bullet that will go all the way in the case and eliminate the need for a filler, similar to how Iraqvet8888 (Eric) on youtube did with his.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Alright, I just couldn't help myself tonight. I got tired of looking at what I thought was crusted over black powder fouling in my bore that I just couldn't get out, and risked it all. I soaked the bore in ballistol, took my bronze brush, and attacked it with several passes, probably 50-75 altogether with short and long strokes of the brush. It's definitely pitting, as most of it didn't go anywhere, and some new pitting appeared. It was as I thought, most likely caked on BP fouling in some places from petroleum cleaners, mixed with rust. I still can't get the patches to come out snow white, but I do have to understand that this is an iron bore rifle, and iron doesn't shine up like steel in the first place and it's just a light orange instead of a dark orange.

The good news, the bore is smooth now. I can push a patch thru it with no roughness felt, even when I drag it back thru. The lands and grooves are now very defined for being a shallow 3 groove Enfield bore. Despite the pitting, it's still in relatively good shape and I guess I can't cry about pitting in a rifle this old anyways. The bore now has a nice bright shine to it for being iron, no doubt though that the brush probably did that. I probably removed .0005 worth of material I'm sure, but I feel it was worth it in this case. I still don't fault the GB seller. None of this crud appeared until I really started to clean it. Fresh out of the box, it was smooth and shiny or so it appeared to be. I'm sure it was grease that was dried up and smoothed over producing the illusion of a perfect bore. I can't complain. For a Snider, the dang thing shoots very well, and for sure minute of whitetail or hog out to 100 yards. Maybe even 200? I will be testing that.

I'm hoping giving it a deeper cleaning will tighten the groups up just a hair more. A BPCR rifle needing some fouling to group is one thing, but being caked in dirt is another. Caked dirt doesn't produce accuracy.

[tmanbuckhunter]

Mk3 carbine is here, and it's a cool little gun. Breech block is a bit stiff to open and disassembly showed no issues. Breech face is smooth and clean, and the firing pin spring is stiff. I just don't think it's been shot much. I used my expander die to open up the neck of a freshly formed 24ga case and managed to get the x-ring bullet seated. I don't think it's going to work, but we will see. I made a chamber casting and I'm waiting an hour and a half or so to take my measurements.

Screw it, measured the casting anyways. Groove at the throat is .597, with a free bore/throat diameter of roughly .635. I don't see any reason why the X-ring 60-530XR won't work? Maybe I need to get the cases fire-formed first and then try. I'll order some round balls.


EDITx V. I lied edition: I took a fresh case and carefully expanded the neck with my flaring die until I could just start a fresh bullet, and slowly seated the bullet just past the first lube groove, and then took my seated die and closed the flare with the crimp ring, and the case slides in and out just fine with no issues, and the breech block closes easy. I think it's worth trying?


EDIT AGAIN: Ok, so, I charged 50 cases with 60gr 2F, 3.1cc of C.O.W. with a .125 nitro card on the c.o.w. and then two .025 card wads on that to get the height I needed. I seated the bullets and they work fine, BUT.... there is a CRAP TON of neck tension. I hope it's not too much, but I guess we'll find out. As long as I close the flare with the crimp shoulder they chamber fine. The bullets don't want to seat straight because of all the neck tension, so if that happens, a quick trip into the sizer just until tension is felt on the press handle is enough, and then they drop right into the chamber. I'm not expecting much, but we'll see. I made two mistakes back to back at the bench and realized I was exhausted, so I stopped for the night.

[toot]

.577 snider's rely rock!!

[tmanbuckhunter]

They really do rock.

So, managed to get 50 loaded. Tons of neck tension, a lot of the bullets wouldn't seat straight because of that. I plunk tested all of them, the ones that wouldn't chamber because of a crooked bullet got a trip up into the sizing die. Just far enough to pull things straight enough to chamber fine. I'm not expecting to be amazed on the first trip trying to get this brass fire-formed.

What happened to fouronesix? I noticed all of his posts are gone and he's kinda MIA? I really appreciated all the information he provided. He was a lot of help.
264837

[tmanbuckhunter]

Shot all 50 today... not good. Minor excessive headspace, had some primers try to back out and a few fall out but the pockets are still tight. Accuracy was dismal... I could hit the target at 50 yards and that's about it. I did some investigating and found the crown was boogered up, so when I got home I re-cut the crown and all is well in that arena. I think I can chalk the accuracy up to one, a damaged crown which probably happened during shipping, and two, there was A LOT of neck tension on those bullets. It's been my experience with BPCR that less is more when it comes to neck tension. With the fired cases, I can almost seat a bullet by hand, which is preferable. I will continue to try and develop a load with the X-Ring bullet. If that doesn't work, I will try a .600 round ball, and maybe have a custom mold produced based on the old TC maxi-ball. It has been my experience in most front stuffers that the maxi-ball seems to shoot well regardless of load, bore condition, or twist rate and number of grooves.

I think now that the brass is fire-formed the headspace/primer issue should go away.

[tmanbuckhunter]

So, update. I did some load development. Rifle still seems to have a headspace issue, although I don't think it's entirely headspace. Primers are still falling out of their pockets, but the pockets are still tight. I took a measurement again and with a cartridge in the chamber, the breech block has .008 worth of play in the front and rear. I ended up cutting a piece of brass foil about .004 thick to epoxy into the rear of the shoe and that seemed to tighten things up. Upon inspection of the primers that fell out, I noticed that the firing pin is smashing them all the way into the flash hole. Couple this with the relatively low operating pressures of black powder, the thin rim of the shotgun brass, and the already large firing pin hole, I think the primers are just flowing themselves out of the pocket. It doesn't help that they are federal large pistol magnum, and very soft. I wonder if a CCI Large Rifle primer would take care of some of the issue, on top with the tightened up breech block in the shoe? Time will tell.

Accuracy with the X-ring bullet after crown repair and less neck tension is fairly decent. All groups averaged about 4" at 50 yards. The two targets shown are 63 and 66gr. The 66gr loading appears to be bigger than the 63 gr, but both measure roughly 4" at the widest point. I think if I were to stack another 5 shots into each group, both group sizes would still look the same. Good enough to hunt with, but I think I may try a .600 round ball anyways just to see what happens. I'm planning on shooting the 66gr load for all purposes. 63gr of 2F still went "boof" with a thick cloud of smoke, where as the 66gr load went "CRACK" with a nice hazy smoke cloud that disappeared quickly and wasn't too thick.
66gr
265444
63gr
265445
Shim in the shoe. All the excess epoxy was cleaned off once it dried.
265446
Teacup howitzer
265447

[tmanbuckhunter]

271318

Figured I'd give you guys an update. The old teacup howitzer has been making it out to the woods, and she's shooting a full bore 70gr. load now.

[DonHowe]

Unless the Magteca brass has changed it will need to be annealed prior to forming or the cases will split.
Lee dies form a bottleneck case but in my Canadian 2 band MkIII fired cases are a straight taper. A friend made a neck size die for me which sizes the neck to an ID of .590" for the .600" round ball.

[Outpost75]

My buddy in Italy uses an Army & Navy Cooperative Society Sporting Carbine in .577 firing .600" pure lead round balls in 24-gage paper shotshell cases cut to 50 mm, loaded with 80-grains of Fg black, a 10cm felt over powder wad compressing the powder charge, then a pea-sized dab of 50-50 olive oil and beeswax over the wad, and another smoothed over the ball, no crimp needed. Kills boar.

273679273680

[DonHowe]

A feller tinkerin with a Snider ought to head over to British Militaria Forums and check out all the info there.

[tmanbuckhunter]

My buddy in Italy uses an Army & Navy Cooperative Society Sporting Carbine in .577 firing .600" pure lead round balls in 24-gage paper shotshell cases cut to 50 mm, loaded with 80-grains of Fg black, a 10cm felt over powder wad compressing the powder charge, then a pea-sized dab of 50-50 olive oil and beeswax over the wad, and another smoothed over the ball, no crimp needed. Kills boar.

273679273680

I remember seeing you post this I believe either here, or the british militaria forum before. A commercial Snider is on my list of MUST HAVES!! I would build a new one but I really don't want to deal with building a destructive device.