surplus powder for 44-40 and 45 colt

[txpete]

never have used any of the surplus powders..yet :-D which one would be good for the 44-40 and 45 colt.I am just getting tried of getting ripped off by my local dealer.$27.05 for a lb. of AA5744 never again.
thanks
pete

44-40 is a win 92
45 colt win 94

[felix]

Really, I don't think there is a surplus powder for hot loads in either the 44-40 or 45 colt. The reason being is that the chamber size in these guns are quite larger than they should be, coupled with the fact that the cases are too thin to handle the resulting pressures required to make the loads hotter than cowboy specs. It is a bummer all the way around. I have been using BlueDot to adjust the load to where all the powder is consumed upon firing, with no spent powder falling out of the cases into the action upon ejection. These loads are questimated to be around 30K cup which I feel is maximum for these conditions. Now, if you are talking cowboy loads, there are quite a few surplus powders that might fit the bill. If so, holler back and we can point you to some to try. They won't be as expensive as the retail powders, but more so than the typical surplus numbers we tend to purchase. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

Felix--

ANY info about the 44-40 WCF at k'boy intensities using surplus fuels would be welcome. My platform for this caliber is an original 1873 Winchester (1897 mfg.), so please E-laborate. :-)

[JohnH]

txpete, I did a good bit of shooting using a 44 Magnum using 265 grian cast and 24 grains of 1680. Ain't quite what one would think of as a cowboy load, I imagine pressures are running 30K or so.

I've done a lot of shooting using 11.5 grains of Bartletts #7 and 200 grain cast in the 44. Stuff has performed within 30 fps of Blue Dot, is dirty, nasty dirty at low pressure and since I ain't got the knack of dipping down real good, the stuff requires weighing each charge. Forget putting it through a powder measure, this is the coarsest flake powder I've ever seen. Compared to this, Unique flows like water. Ain't what I'd call mass production powder. Bartlett even states not for use in progressive systems, so it may not fit your bill.

I'd be looking for Universal Clays were I in your place. A really good pistol case powder, with all the likeable features of Unique, including burning speed, in a ball powder.

27.50 is a rip off for 5744. You would be better off to buy from Powder Valley in four or 8 pound kegs and pay the ship and hazmat

[txpete]

it was a rip at 27.00 a lb won't be going back anytime soon.we had 3 gun shops here but one guy closed up retired,one was murdered for his pistols and this is the only guy left.he thinks he has a license to rape.
pete

[Buckshot]

..............What about AA#2 at Pat's? Even if it's as fast as Bullseye, it's a listed powder for 45 Colt, and I'd think 44-40.

.................Buckshot

[felix]

Guys, I really don't have an answer for this application. BP is the obvious answer, but this is not contemplated. Do you use speeds corresponding to Bullseye, or Unique, or BlueDot, or WW630, 2400, 4227, WW680? Hopefully, I can find out sometime soon. ... felix

[oksmle]

txpete .... From my notes dated 12/13/75: Lyman # 429215 cast in WW, wgd 212.0 grains, sized .429", Hornady GC, Remington LP primers, 13.7 grains of SR4759, fired from original Win. Mod. 1892 w/22" barrel. Average velocity was 850 fps. According to the manual this load was supposed to reach 1300 fps in a 24" barrel.
My notes say there was unburned powder in the chamber. Because of the weak hammer fall in this particular rifle I always used pistol primers. Maybe the unburned powder would have been eliminated with rifle primers. Don't know.
Notes also say: Very mild recoil & 3 1/2", 10 shot groups at 75 yards.
oksmle

[txpete]

thanks for the info guys.
win 92 20 inch barrel
sitting here looking in my accurate book #1.
max loads..
215 gr lead fngc 13.0 grs AA#9 1073 fps 12,200 cup
200 gr lfn 6.3 grs AA#2 884 fps 12,800 cup

my load of 9.0 unique with a 200 lfn avg. 1220 fps last time at the range

pete

[w30wcf]

Felix, txpete, I have found that the Alliant data for the .44-40 is the only information that shows smokeless loads that will duplicate original factory ballistics. Even though the data is found in the pistol section, note that the velocity readings were taken in a 24" barrel.
http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=pistolrevolver&step=2&bulletID=82&cartridgeID=1026&caliber=%2E44%2F40&cartridgedescr=Win%2E&bulletdescr=200%20JSP

My powders of preference for the .44-40 are Blue Dot, 2400, H4227E, 4759 and RL7. These slower burning powders will produce the highest velocity at the pressure limit for the '73 Winchester. The '92 will take more pressure.

I have never tried WC820 in the .44-40, but since it is close in burning rate to AA9 and 2400, that might be a likely candidate for your '92 and '94.

w30wcf

[txpete]

thanks
pete

[felix]

You need lots of pressure to make a minimum amount of AA9/WC820 to burn clean enough. It will work OK with a 300 grainer at 18.5 grains or so, but that is pushing the stuff to somewhere above 30K cup. No gun problem here, but the case walls will squish down too close to the rim for reloading (with ease). 4227 might be a better choice because it will operate at 20K cup if it had to. What about RL7? It would be hard to beat 8.5-9.0 Unique/UniversalClays, though. With the chambers so large, we need a powder/boolit combo that will slam the "neck" of the case against the chamber like right now. Unburnt powder is a definite no-no in a lever gun. Today, I shot 14.5 BlueDot with 250s-260s and this seems about right in terms of trash residuals, perhaps a little light in power for a rifle, but definitely not exceeding 25K. Definitely accurate enough at 80 yards out of a 26 twist 94. With these wild chambers, too fast of a powder won't keep the pressure low enough, and too slow of a powder will generate too much trash. ... felix

[Bullshop]

A good source for origonal type loads for the 44/40 and 45 Colt is from Dave Scovill's "Loading For The Peacmaker". Lots of good info on every cartridge Colt ever chambered in the SAA.
BIC/BS

[w30wcf]

felix,
"What about RL7?" I like it quite a bit. A capacity load under a 215 gr. 427098 bullet in the .44-40 did 1,258 f.p.s. in a 21" barrel and 1,367 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel at pressures safe in a '73 with very good accuracy. Here's Alliant's data with a 240 gr. bullet ......
http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=centerfire&step=2&bulletID=348&cartridgeID=1097&caliber=%2E44%2F40&cartridgedescr=Win%2E&bulletdescr=Cast%20240L

There is a little unburned powder but that has never been a problem in my leveraction rifles.

In a friends original '92 Winchester, we have used 4759, 4227 and AA5744 to push 200 gr. bullets into the 1,700-1,800 f.p.s. range with good results. We did not experience any problems in resizing the cases for the next go round.

oksmle,
With 4759, I'm using 17 grs. under a 200 gr. cast bullet, and 16 grs. under a 215 gr. cast bullet for velocities in the 1,250 f.p.s. range. 4227 will duplicate the 4759 velocities at the same charge weights.........at least with my lots of powders.


13 grs. of discontinued W630 ball powder was used in Winchester and Western factory .44/40 loads in the 1960's-1970's (200 gr. jacketed bullet / 1301 f.p.s. ).
AA9 is close in burning rate to W630 but I don't know if it would burn as well as W630 at lower chamber pressures.

txpete,
Is your '92 an original or of late manufacture?


w30wcf

[felix]

John, maybe I can talk Sundog to share some of his RL7. He hates the smell of it, and maybe I will too, but for these 45 colt rifle experiments it would be worth it. Hopefully, I will be able to load a full case of it behind the BD 240 grainers. That would be the objective using this powder's speed. The goal is to find a powerful load (powder speed - amount) that slams the front end of the case against the chamber without stretching the case at the web area. Would this be a miracle, or what? I will agree that 760 would be close to perfection (perfect burn, great speed, no web expansion), or at least it should be. ... felix

[sundog]

Felix, you just talked me into it. Got part of a one pounder, and you are welcome to it! sundog

[w30wcf]

Felix,
I have fired .45 Colt cartridges with capacity loads in my Marlin Cowboy rifle.
Accuracy was good. Here's the data that was taken:

265 gr. Keith / 30 / RL7 / Winchester Brass / Fed 155 primers - 1,465 f.p.s.

255 gr. Lyman / 30 / H4198 / Winchester Brass / Fed 155 primers - 1,519 f.p.s.

320 gr. RCBS / 28 / RL7 / Winchester Brass / Fed 155 primers - 1,416 f.p.s.

(THESE LOADS NOT FOR USE IN TOGGLE LINK ACTIONS!)

In all the loads I have fired in this rifle, including a 285 gr. g.c. bullet to 2,000 f.p.s., I have not seen any signs of case stretching. That may be due to the fact that I neck size my cases only, leaving the rest of the case in the "as fired" dimension.

w30wcf

[felix]

Sounds good, John. I will use these loads. The case stretching appears in the web area, and has done so with new cases, zero fired, at 15 grains BlueDot, 250 grainers. At 14.5 grains, the stretching did not increase with the same boolits. I am sure these loads are not excessive as "total" pressure wise, but the brass thickness and chamber width combo just can't take it. If the DickCasull cases were larger in diameter, I'd use them for sure. Problem would be solved once and for all. But that won't help the 44-40. ... felix

[felix]

What is considered a toggle length action? ... felix

[Bodydoc447]

I think he meant toggle LINK actions, i.e. Henrys, 1866 and 1873 actions.

Doc

[felix]

Gotcha', Doc. Thanks. ... felix

[moodyholler]

I shoot 8 gr Unique with original Lyman 205 gr bullet out of my old Marlin in 44-40 and it shoots grtewat. FWIW, moodyholler

[C1PNR]

I found I just had to back down to 7 gr Unique in my original '73 in 44 WCF. This with my 42798's at 205 gr with lube.

Anything hotter than that spewed boolits all over the place, and I felt I was abusing an old soldier.

Then I picked up a Uberti copy of the SAA and just settled on that as a reasonable load for both of them.
I would like very much, though, to find a decent load with surplus to feed these two.

[felix]

It does not have to be surplus per se, but it must be cheap enough and fill the case well to be an all around great load with all reasonable shooting angles and weather. Finding that magic formula is a quest a lot of us might have to share so we can parse out the fluff powders quicker. River junk yard shoots range from 50-120 yards, at -20 to +8 degrees, in 50-90 F weather. The round has to be fairly flat shooting to be at least 50 percent effective on targets the size of beer cans. ... felix

[Bullshop]

C1PNR
At 7gn per shot thats 1000 shots per pound. If you pay $20.00 per pound of powder its costing you $1.00 per box of 50 rounds. Thats .02 per shot, about the same as a primer, or a gas check. If you shoot 100 rounds per week your pound of powder will last 2 1/2 months. That sounds perty reasonable to me.
Hope I figured that right. If not I know a couple fellers that hang out here will let me know shur nuff.
BIC/BS

[felix]

Unique/UniversalClays is hard to beat for consistent angle, narrow ranging weather shooting. ... felix

[drinks]

With a 200gr rnf cast in .44-40, I duplicate factory 1220fps with either 9.5gr Herco or 19gr IMR4227.
With 230gr swc gc and 310gr rfn gc, I have an interesting result with H110, 20gr gives 1230fps with the 230gr and 1370fps with the 310gr. Not really sure what to make of that.
Better combustion with more resistance and more pressure developed with the 310 is the only thing I can come up with.
?

[w30wcf]

txpete,
Looking through the Accurate Manual Number 2, I see that there is a load listed for AA9 for the .44-40 with a 215 gr. cast bullet. 13.0 grs. / AA9 / 1,073 f.p.s. /12,200 C.U.P. taken in a 20" barrel.

I'll try that load in my '73 with Lyman's 427098 (217 grs. in w.w.+ 2% tin alloy from my mold) when the weather cooperates and let you know how it does. I'll also try some WC820 at the same charge weight.

As Felix indicated, it may be that AA9 / WC820 will need more pressure to burn efficiently.

w30wcf

[Lloyd Smale]

two ive had good luck with in those calibers is the surplus aa2 and the wc820f a faster batch that burns about like hs7

[drinks]

I load for my 1910, 92 carbine.
Cannot get much accuracy, the chamber is small and the groove diameter is large, so I cannot chamber bullets over .428"
The factory WW loads do 1220fps, my 200gr rfn cast do 1230fps with 9 gr Herco and I have loaded the 200gr up to 1700fps with 26.5gr IMR4227, still below max for a '92, per Lyman.
With a 230gr swc gc, 20gr of H110 gives 1200fps, may be a bit stout for toggle link actions
Rel7, 22gr with the 230gr swc gc did 1120 fps.
Interestingly enough, with a 310gr rfn gc,22gr Rel7 also gave 1120fps, so it indicates that Rel7 is a bit slow for the 230gr bullet.

[Scota4570]

[QUOTE=drinks]I load for my 1910, 92 carbine.
Cannot get much accuracy, the chamber is small and the groove diameter is large, so I cannot chamber bullets over .428"

I would doctor that chamber. Failing that pure lead bullets and 3F black will shoot. I have a Marlin with the same ailment. It has a 0.438" bore. It seemed hopeless until I went to pure lead and black powder.