I'm done too...

[mvintx]

I sympathize with Burn Fingers as I have experienced the same frustration with getting my cast boolits to shoot. In my case it is 9mm. Over the last two months I have fired almost 350 rounds consisting of three different sizings and three different powders trying to get a consistent and accurate load. Yesterday I fired my last attempt at what I hoped would be the magic combination but was met with disappointment. I'm posting four targets to show my results. These were 4.2 and 4.4 grains Unique, boolit sized to .358" in a barrel that slugs .356", water dropped. Target is the backside of a B-8, shot from 12 yards from a sandbag rest. I forgot to show measurements but you can see the 5-1/2" black circle bleeding through from the face of the target. It will give you an idea of group size. If this sort of accuracy is considered acceptable for a pistol, I'll stop searching and I'll be able to sleep at night. Othewise, it is time to move on to another project.

https://i.imgur.com/m5Ktnp4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/COBRUSv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GjoXGKW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xwPRVi7.jpg

[Burnt Fingers]

How does that pistol shoot with factory ammo?

What bullet are you using?

PC, Hi-Tek, or lube?

[Dusty Bannister]

Can you see those 3/8" lines clearly at 12 yards? You will have a better sight picture with a 2" disc and concentrate on the sights aligned at a 6:00 hold.

[mdi]

What gun? Most 9mm pistols are not "target grade" and a 3" pocket 9mm often won't give much better than dinner plate groups @ 12+ yards.. Have you tried not water dropping? Or changing diameter? Also I've read lubes can make a difference too. I'd agree with burnt fingers and try some factory ammo for a "base line"...

[gypsyman]

I've come to the conclusion, just about any factory gun needs to be broken in. And depending on quality of manufacture, that might be 100 rds., or 500. Might want to take some J-B, or Flitz polish to the barrel, and smooth things out. If all you've shot out of the gun is cast, might even take more shooting, as lead isn't going to smooth out chatter marks as fast as a few jacketed bullets.

[centershot]

Can you see those 3/8" lines clearly at 12 yards? You will have a better sight picture with a 2" disc and concentrate on the sights aligned at a 6:00 hold.

This! ^^^^^ You'll achieve a much more consistent sight picture by using a round black target on a white background. The NRA 50 foot pistol target (B-2 or B-3) would be perfect for this.

https://targets4free.com/nra-b2-target/

[mvintx]

The gun is a 4" bbl Glock 23 (LWD conversion barrel) and shoots factory or my jacketed bullets just fine. The barrel has seen over 1,000 jacketed rounds. The factory barrel (.40) has well over 5,000. I don't expect it to shoot like my Gold Cup but consistent 2-1/2" groups would nice. Offhand with my reloads it will print under 2" at 12 yards. If cast bullets can't do that, I'm just not interested. For Burnt Fingers, the bullet is a well-proven Lyman 120 grain TC with Smoke's PC.

I have been using B-8 targets but thought I'd give my 'crosshair' targets a try, thinking perhaps my old eyes might be more suited to them. I've tried center and six-o'clock holds with the B-8s but inconsistent results caused me to try something else.

I haven't totally given up on cast in 9mm but after a couple of months of frustration, I'm gonna take a break and work on .40 and 10mm. I'd like to be able to shoot cast bullets at my local bullseye matches.

[hermans]

It could be that you do not have a good boolit to barrel fit here, even if you size them .358. Pull a few boolits from loaded rounds with a kinetic type boolit puller and mic them especially towards the rear of the bearing surface. They should still be .358......
If not, this could be your problem. Looking at your chrono results, my SD is seldom higher than 10, mostly between 6 and 9, and this I achieved only after changing my expander plug to larger one to prevent the case from swaging down the boolit.
There is very good info here on the forum about this very possible "problem", my accuracy improved dramatically after this change.
Good luck, and do not give up yet, I am sure the real experts will chip in shortly and guide you to a straight shooting Glock 23!

[BC17A]

Over the last two months I have fired almost 350 rounds consisting of three different sizings and three different powders trying to get a consistent and accurate load. Yesterday I fired my last attempt at what I hoped would be the magic combination but was met with disappointment. I'm posting four targets to show my results. These were 4.2 and 4.4 grains Unique, boolit sized to .358" in a barrel that slugs .356", water dropped. Target is the backside of a B-8, shot from 12 yards from a sandbag rest. I forgot to show measurements but you can see the 5-1/2" black circle bleeding through from the face of the target. It will give you an idea of group size. If this sort of accuracy is considered acceptable for a pistol, I'll stop searching and I'll be able to sleep at night. Othewise, it is time to move on to another project.


Which other powders have you tried? IMO you're to close to minimum charge for a medium BR powder like Unique. Other than the one flier with each of your 4.4 loads you can see they're tightening up compared to the 4.2 loads. I'd run up the ladder even further, 4.6, 4.8 and 5 grains, then when you've found the tightest group, decrease and increase that load by a tenth and retest. If it's reduced loads you're after, Tightgroup, AA#2 or Red-Dot would be a better choice.

[mvintx]

Which other powders have you tried? IMO you're to close to minimum charge for a medium BR powder like Unique. Other than the one flier with each of your 4.4 loads you can see they're tightening up compared to the 4.2 loads. I'd run up the ladder even further, 4.6, 4.8 and 5 grains, then when you've found the tightest group, decrease and increase that load by a tenth and retest. If it's reduced loads you're after, Tightgroup, AA#2 or Red-Dot would be a better choice.

Another good observation...I was using 4.8 and 5 grains Unique but I thought I might be 'overspeeding' the boolits. Another member of this forum suggesting reducing the load and this was my attempt at it. I've got some Red Dot and initially, 3.8 and 4 grains looked promising. But then accuracy was inconsistent from one day to the next. I'm starting to think that I'm the cause of the inconsistency, not the ammo or gun. Thanks. Maybe there is hope after all?

[BC17A]

Another good observation...I was using 4.8 and 5 grains Unique but I thought I might be 'overspeeding' the boolits. Another member of this forum suggesting reducing the load and this was my attempt at it. I've got some Red Dot and initially, 3.8 and 4 grains looked promising. But then accuracy was inconsistent from one day to the next. I'm starting to think that I'm the cause of the inconsistency, not the ammo or gun. Thanks. Maybe there is hope after all?

I'm not sure how similar your Lyman 120TC is to the Lee 120TC, but I find the Lee is consistently accurate regardless of velocity. The target pic below is one of the best from my R51 on reload test day. 6.8 grains of AA#7 went 1079fps from the 3.4" barrel and grouped around 3/4". That was 10 yards with wrist support. Even tighter groups from my R1 up to 1245fps. When I work up test loads, all my brass is of the same headstamp and within .002" in length. I weigh and separate the boolits to keep each one <.5 grain of one another and seat & remove bell (absolutely no crimp) one at a time making sure the OAL is consistent. I also like to keep the powder charge within 0.02gn. It's a bit anal but on test days when I have a shot-gun size group I know it's not my process. It sounds like both you and the gun are more than capable and just need to find the right combination.

263041

[Texas by God]

BC17A, that target kinda makes me want one of those weird pistols , especially at the current price. That’s some good shooting.

[BC17A]

BC17A, that target kinda makes me want one of those weird pistols , especially at the current price. That’s some good shooting.

Thanks TbG. The R51 is actually a pretty decent shooter despite the reputation it got early on. Not 100% reliable but pretty close. Mags seem to be it's weak link. Mine is strictly a range toy because I made several mods to the trigger group. Trigger is very light(under 3 #)and only requires about .100" travel to fire and reset. I have yet to find a flatter shooting 9mm than my R51. All the parts I modded I bought replacements for so if and when I want to return it to a stock pistol it can be done easily.

[Burnt Fingers]

Thanks TbG. The R51 is actually a pretty decent shooter despite the reputation it got early on. Not 100% reliable but pretty close. Mags seem to be it's weak link. Mine is strictly a range toy because I made several mods to the trigger group. Trigger is very light(under 3 #)and only requires about .100" travel to fire and reset. I have yet to find a flatter shooting 9mm than my R51. All the parts I modded I bought replacements for so if and when I want to return it to a stock pistol it can be done easily.

"Flat shooting" is all about the velocity and BC of the bullet. The same load you're using would shoot just as flat in a similar length barrel.

[Conditor22]

I agree 100% with hermans. nothing will help if your downsizing/compressing your boolits in the seating/crimping process.

This is the single largest cause of failures I've seen in loading for the 9MM. I used the NOE neck expanders until a fellow CB member graciously made me some custom NOE profile powder through expanders.

some have had luck using 38/357 powder through dies.

[fredj338]

All my glocks, g26, g19, g35 after market bbl, shoot lead bullet loads just fine, factory bbl. At 15y, sub 2" offhand groups are pretty common with lead or coated lead. I used to size everything to 0.357" but would get issues with chambering using mixed brass, so went to 0.356", air cooled range scrap. I PC & water drop out of the oven. Accurate enough to smack 10" steel plates @ 25y offhand.
Not sure what powder combos you have tried but your example of 4.2-4.4gr of Unique, part of the problem. That is well off the pressures needed for good combustion imo, your SD are probably all over the place plus a water dropped bullet at that vel might be to hard. If you only want to run 1000fps, go faster powders. I think RedDot is a sleeper for accurate lead bullet loads in any service caliber gun.

[fredj338]

Another good observation...I was using 4.8 and 5 grains Unique but I thought I might be 'overspeeding' the boolits. Another member of this forum suggesting reducing the load and this was my attempt at it. I've got some Red Dot and initially, 3.8 and 4 grains looked promising. But then accuracy was inconsistent from one day to the next. I'm starting to think that I'm the cause of the inconsistency, not the ammo or gun. Thanks. Maybe there is hope after all?
If it varies day to day, I would say you are the issue not the load. Ammo doesn't do that unless conditions change dramatically, like extreme heat or cold.

[BC17A]

"Flat shooting" is all about the velocity and BC of the bullet. The same load you're using would shoot just as flat in a similar length barrel.

We may be on different pages here. When I say "flat" I'm referring to less recoil/muzzle rise.

[JMax]

I use the Lee TC120 sized to .356" powder coated with HF Red and now Yellow Gasp as it shoots better in my Ruger PC at 50 and 100 yards. My Glocks with factory barrels liked .357" better but my volume 9mm is Hoover my Ruger PC. the load is 4 gr of TiteGroup and Dillon dies but the taper crimp die is adjusted to straightened out the case only. The following photo is a 50 yard group using a 3 min red dot sight and has since been upgraded to a Nikon P223 scope, the black paster is 1" square. On the pistol side my G19 with nite sights is used to cut 2 1/4" wide targets in half at 15 yards off hand limited to (4) 15 round mags. Crimp and powders are very important in loading 9s with cast.

263073

[MT Gianni]

9mm and 223 are not a good start for many who start out casting. I would try low velocities with fast powder, ie, Bullseye at 900 fps.
Take this how you will but I have never fired a Glock and have no desire to. [I currently have over 20 pistols] I had a Ruger P-89 that would not shoot but I believe that was due to trigger pull issues. My CZ shoots well with a 120-135 gr and 4 gr AA2, I haven ever shot a 9 with tumble lube and got a decent group. I would get it as slow as possible and gradually increase velocities to where your groups open up. It may be you have a 1000 fps gun with cast. It may be less that you top out at.

[Burnt Fingers]

We may be on different pages here. When I say "flat" I'm referring to less recoil/muzzle rise.

That normally called flip.

[trixter]

Since I received my Springfield Armory 9mm XDs I have been shooting Lee 358-105 SWC powder coated with Eastwood Ford Light Blue, and sized at .356. I use 4.3 to 4.5 gr of Unique, and love the results. I have tried other powders and did not care for the results. It is not a tack driver, but with 4" groups at 12 to 15 yards I am happy. It is not a Match grade gun so it is what I need to defend myself.

[gwpercle]

Here are the answers to my 9mm Luger problems ;
1.) CH Steel reloading dies ... don't use carbide Lee die... they oversize the tapered case .
2.) Bullet mould - NOE-358-124-TC-GC , size to .357 with the gas check installed .
3.) 50-50 COWW & soft lead , air cooled .
4.) 4.7 grains Unique , 15 shots go into one ragged hole 1 1/4" wide X 2" tall .

I'm 70 and blind in one eye & glaucoma affects my up and down spread . If my eye was better I'm sure I could get 15 shots into a 1 1/2" X 1 1/2" group . Shot from bench at 50 feet , indoor range .
Pistol is WWII Walther P38 1944 issue ... not exactly a target tack driver .
But the secrete is a gas check , NOE expander plud and tapered steel sizing die ... not a carbide die.
Gary

[1006]

I would drop the charge down to give about 900 FPS and see how it performs.

[waco]

My go to load for my CZ SP 01 is the Lee 120tc powder coated and sized to .358” over 4.0gr Universal. I agree with others that 9mm and .223 can be very challenging.

[bangerjim]

Even with that scattered pattern, the "guy" on the target end is DEAD.....and you are not. Most stock 9's will shoot like that. 2 of mine do, but I am happy with their pattern at 12-15 yards. They will get the job done, if needed for personal protection.

For better groupings I use my XDM match grade barrel 40 S&W. Now that little thing lays down a good group at 15+ yards.

I shoot mostly PC cast in those guns.

[tryingalot]

mix some snapcaps into your magazine, loading it with your eyes shut, and watch your front sight, to see if you're twitching the gun when you hit the snapcaps. You can develope a flinch with a certain gun, cause it "bit" your hand or you didnt have your ear pro in, and not have that flinch show up with other guns. Have somebody film your face from the side as you fire, to see if you're batting your eyes.

This is why so many of us use 147 gr swc's, 150 or 160 gr lrn's in 9mm. so we can hold the velocity down to 850 fps, and not have the bullet "jumping" the rifling. 9mm rifling is very shallow in a lot of guns. If your lead alloy and lube are not just right, 1000 fps causes problems in 9mm

I will not accept larger than 2" groups at 10 yds, not even from my pocket gun. Something is very wrong with any load/gun/shooter combo that can't produce that. The reality of combat, tho, is that only the coldest of pros has ever proven that they can reliably hit a 12" mark at 25m, while they are actually being fired-upon. Now, for shtf, you might be forced to get a replacement longarm, by ambushing somebody with your handgun, using a braced firing position and hearing protection, at such distances, but for "normal times " self defense, and normal people, what happens is you miss the chest with half of your shots at 20 ft. So for realistic shooting practice, even 4" groups at 10 yds is acceptable, but I compete and hunt and I want a lot more accuracy than that.

[tomme boy]

Do this. Find 20 or so pieces of brass that are the longest you have. Then trim all to the same length. Now use them only to do a few work ups. 9mms seem to like the longest brass you can find. Hopefully they are all the same headstamp asd well. If this does not work then you have other problems

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

mvintx,
There is a lot of suggestions in this thread, and they seem all over the map.
Now, whether you take a temporary break or not, I would keep at it, especially since your gun in your hands is a 2" - 12yd gun with jacketed, then it will be that with cast.

My first thought was very much like what MT Gianni posted. Use a fast powder and start with low powder charges, but enough to reliably cycle the gun, then work up, to where accuracy gets bad, or to where you achieve the speed you desire. I like Bullseye powder with the NOE 128gr SWC (it's looks more like a TC than a SWC, but NOE calls it a SWC) in 9mm. Red Dot should probably be good to, But I always steer clear of Red Dot with small powder drops, Bullseye pours so much more consistent.

One extra thing, probably isn't it? But "IF" your problem is with your PC consistency, I can't help much there, I use traditional lube for all my 9mm boolit ammo. I only mention this, because I have had problems with PC boolits in semi-auto pistols. I've never PC'd boolits myself, but I have swapped for them and wasn't pleased with my results.
Good Luck.


9mm and 223 are not a good start for many who start out casting. I would try low velocities with fast powder, ie, Bullseye at 900 fps.
Take this how you will but I have never fired a Glock and have no desire to. [I currently have over 20 pistols] I had a Ruger P-89 that would not shoot but I believe that was due to trigger pull issues. My CZ shoots well with a 120-135 gr and 4 gr AA2, I haven ever shot a 9 with tumble lube and got a decent group. I would get it as slow as possible and gradually increase velocities to where your groups open up. It may be you have a 1000 fps gun with cast. It may be less that you top out at.

[cwlongshot]

I have been casting as much as many here and never ever had issues with hand guns. Rifles can be more difficult as pressures raise. The harder ya push things the faster the limitations of the cast come to Light.

Maybe im lucky maybe I had a better teacher who knows. But know its something your doing as many of us have no problems. Look outside the box. Good luck

CW