7.65x53 Brass Forming

[sfwh]

Hello chaps

I want to make 7.65x53 Mauser (for the Argentine and Belgian Mausers) cases from a more available calibre. I tried using a Lee 7.65x53 full-length sizing die on trimmed 30-06 cases, but the resulting cases wouldn't chamber. I contacted Lee Precision and they said that full-length sizing dies are not designed to form the desired calibre from a different one, and I also found that a few others had this problem caused by the Lee die not pushing the case shoulder down far enough.

Looking for a solution, I found one reference to someone using 308 cases which are a little too short but could essentially be fireformed to become 7.65x53 - link here: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/7-65x53-argentine.675310/
(final comment)

My question is, has anyone else tried using this method with 308? Does it work, or can anyone suggest another solution? I'd rather not purchase the PPU brass if I can help it. I'd also prefer not to purchase any more dies. Any help is much appreciated.

[Seabee1960]

Start with 8 X 57 Mauser brass and get a Redding form and trim die. This is how I make my cases and they shoot great.

[toallmy]

Would sliding a few thousands of feeler gage under the case in the case holder when sizing the brass help getting a little extra shoulder setback .

[Adam Helmer]

sfwh,

Where are you located? For the last 50 years, I have used .30-06 brass to make my M1891 and M1909 Argentine 7.65mm cases. I used RCBS 7.65 dies, with the decapping pin put by to resize the cases and then trimmed the cases to fit.

Maybe RCBS dies are the possible solution, eh, wot? I think there is a difference between price and Value. Now that PPU brass is widely available, I no longer reform .30-06 brass to 7.65MM ammo.

Adam

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi, and welcome to the forum! I read your post about converting 30-06 to 7.65 mm with a great deal of interest. The procedure you followed is a lot like the one I've used successfully for years, and I've converted many of these cases 06/7.65.

First, it's important to anneal the cases. My method is to stand them in a baking pan in water to just below their shoulders, then to hit them individually with a handheld propane torch until they're cherry red. I do each individually, and when each is red I tip it over into the water using a short piece of welding rod (but anything else similar would work). Next lube them and run them into my 7.65mm full length sizing die. My die is RCBS, but I really don't see why that should make a difference. The result is a very long neck. I run the case into an RCBS Trim Die, rough cut off the excess neck with a hacksaw, then finish cutting them to the proper length using a mill file. Take the case out of the trim die and chamfer the neck with a chamfering tool inside and outside. All done.

This one of the simpler cartridge case conversions, and I don't see why your Lee die wouldn't work. You can probably adjust the shoulder by carefully screwing the die in farther until you hit the right spot. I'd revisit the '06 conversion before trying the .308, although I do believe that it would work as they would fire form to fit the chamber. I'd use something less than a full power load to do the fire forming. Like Seabee noted (above) 8x57mm can also be used to form 7.65 mm cases.

[jugulater]

i ,like many above, have trimmed and FL sized 30-06 into 7.65x53mm without issue. i also was using an RCBS die set.

a couple years back i lucked into a bunch of the RCBS form/trim dies at a pawnshop and one was for the 7.65x53mm. the form/trim die made the whole process much quicker.

alternatively if you’re not interested in buying a form die you can probably file/grind the necessary amount off the bottom of the sizer, i’ve done this before with lee dies that simply weren’t pushing the shoulder back far enough.

or perhaps screw the die in a tiny bit past the point were the shell holder would normally contact it. depending on your press this may or may not help.

as for using 308 win brass, it depends on the purpose. for cast boolits the 7.65x53 already has a short neck and making it shorter may be an issue.

[sfwh]

Hmmm seems that the RCBS dies work well but maybe the Lee ones don't work for forming. Thanks for the suggestions though. Also I am based in the UK and everything is harder to get here which is why I was trying to avoid going out and buying the brass from PPU.

[Mk42gunner]

I have read that there is a slight difference between the Argentine 7.65 and the Belgian 7.65, and there is list somewhere of which dies work with which rifle. It has been a few years since I read that and I don't remember exactly where it was, maybe here?

In the past I used a set of Lyman 7.65x53 dies to form cases from .30-06. After running them into the full length sizer, I used a small tubing cutter to trim most of the excess neck length. A Lee case trimmer did the final trim, although I think they should have been neck turned, looking back.

Robert

[salpal48]

There is absolutely no difference Between The Argentine and the Belgium version except the rifle itself.

[Hick]

RCBS makes a special die specifically for converting 270 or 30-06 brass to 7.65. Its well worth it to get one. The nice thing about it is that it is designed so that all you have to do is put the lubed 30-06 or 270 case in your shell holder, raise the ram all the way and cut off what sticks out of the top with a hacksaw. Then you final size them with the 7.65 die. All my brass for my 1909 Argentine was made this way. And-- without annealing the cases first.

[samari46]

Use 8mm cases to form to 7.65x53mm. Do not even try going to 54mm as they most likely will not fit in your 1891 chamber. I have 75 rounds of Argentine made hunting ammo marked 7.65x54mm and they will not fit in any of my 1891's chambers. I have a RCBS form & trim die that I used to make cases out of some surplus 8mm Israeli cases. Lube a case first and make sure the F&T die is not screwed down on the shell holder. What you are looking for is a slight crush fit or slight resistance when you chamber a case. This means there is actually no headspace. The case sits right on the face of the bolt. Now if the first case will not fit without closing the bolt, try the case again but screw down the F&T die a little more. I use Imperial case lube a little dab will do. If the case still doesn't not allow screw the die down a little more. Try the formed case again. We're talking about maybe 1/4 turn at a time when screwing down the die. This will tale a little time so don't rush things. Eventually you will reach a point where the bolt will close with some resistance. Lock the die ring with it's set screw. I use a small file to trim the cases while in the F&T die. Won't hurt the die as it's hardened. Make sure to clean the die after each case is trimmed. I normally run a .310 reamer through the case neck as you are forming the shorted case from where the thicker brass is in the shoulder area. Chamfer the case and run them through your regular Full length sizing die after loosening the set screw and backing off the die from the shell holder. You do not want to push the new shoulder back after all that work in the F&T die. Check all cases that have been formed to see that they all offer some resistance when closing the bolt.. Your case will fireform when the big light comes in and ignites the powder. After firing re-set your full length die off the shell holder slightly. Your case is now fully fire formed to your rifles chamber. Sounds like a lot of work and it is, If forming from 30-06 you definitely will need the reamer to ream out the neck after Forming in the F&T die. Much thicker brass. You need to have room in your chamber so that upon firing the case neck can safely let go of the bullet. 8mm brass is easier to form and trim than '06 brass. Your other option would be to buy some PPU 7.65x53mm cases from Graf's. I once did 300 8mm cases into 7.65c53mm in a day. My options back then was buy Norma ammo or Argentine ball ammo. Frank

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello sfwh,

I had about the same issue, I could chamber but the Bolt was hard to close. Was in the days before the internet so I had to figure it out myself. The necks were to thick, I ended up purchasing an RCBS Neck Turning tool. Never had an issue since.

I should add, I used a Redding Form & Trim Die for forming.
Then used Lyman Full Length sizing Die.
The shoulder was kind of rounded, but sharpened up after firing.

AntiqueSledMan.

[dogmower]

are you sure the neck walls aren't too thick? that would give you problems chambering and is a common occurrence when sizing down. try a 7x57 mauser case or two, sizing up. other than that, screw the sizing die down until it "bumps" the ram at the top of the stroke. that should set the shoulder where it needs to be. most of the 7.65 x 53 chambers I've come across are fairly forgiving, so if the above doesn't work, I'd consider investing in a small base '06 sizer die. take the spindle out and just size the body, then run it through whatever 7.65 x 53 sizing die you're using. good luck.

[JM7.7x58]

Check your neck thickness first. Your expander may be making your necks too wide. If neck thickness is within tolerance, I would then grind a few thousand off the top of your shell holder. Grind and check, grind and check, till an empty case chambers. The shell holder is the stop point for the sizing operation. If your chamber is in fact so tight that you need to shorten anything, the shell holder is where to start. It is also the cheapest part to replace.

JM

[Uncle Grinch]

RCBS makes a special die specifically for converting 270 or 30-06 brass to 7.65. Its well worth it to get one. The nice thing about it is that it is designed so that all you have to do is put the lubed 30-06 or 270 case in your shell holder, raise the ram all the way and cut off what sticks out of the top with a hacksaw. Then you final size them with the 7.65 die. All my brass for my 1909 Argentine was made this way. And-- without annealing the cases first.

This is the simplest way to go... get the RCBS 7.65 case forming die and use only one type of brass. I selected R/P since I don’t use it for any of my 30-06 or 308 loads. That way if I pick up a 30-06 case and it’s R/P headstamp, I know it’s 7.65.

[Larry Gibson]

There is absolutely no difference Between The Argentine and the Belgium version except the rifle itself.

sfwh

The above post is basically correct. However, reloading dies are often made to fit chamber dimensions. Hence, the problem with Lee dies as there is a difference between Belgian chambers and Argentine chambers. Most notably in chamber headspace. I have measured the chamber headspace of numerous M91s, MM1909s and numerous Belgian made 7.65x53s. The Belgian made chambers most often have headspace upwards of .010" longer than the Argentine chambers. Lee dies are marked for the 7.65 Belgian cartridge and numerous Lee FL dies I have sized cases in size the cases to fit perfectly in Belgian rifle chambers. Most often those sized case do not chamber well in Argentine chambers.

This is especially with cases formed from 30-06 as the thicker neck pulling over the expander can pull the should neck forward increasing the case headspace. Sometimes reaming or turning the necks to thin them alleviates this problem. I've never found an Argentine chamber with a neck so tight a loaded round with .314 bullets would not chamber.

I form Mauser cases (8x57, 7x57 and 6.5x55) from 30-06 based cases initially with a RCBS 8x57 form/trim die. Then the FL die for any of the three cartridges is used to final form the case with a slight "crush" fit in the rifle chamber. Cases are then finished trimmed with the neck length to fit the chamber neck length not some arbitrary length. That way the cases fit the chamber. If forming cases with the Lee FL die [yes, it is easily done with the Lee die regardless of the PC answer they give you] using 30-06 based cases remove the deprime/expander stem from the die. and then form the cases. Trime the cases to length. Install the deprime/expander back in the die as far down as it will go. Lube the inside of the case necks [lube on a Q-tip works fine] and run over the expander portion. That will not "drag" the shoulder forward that way. When forming make sure the die is in the press far enough the shell holder bumps firmly against the bottom of the FL die. Do not adjust so the ram "cam's over".

See if the formed cases will chamber that way. If not then I remove a small amount of the bottom of the die [with Lee dies that won't size sufficiently I just remove .010" from the bottom of the die] and then adjust the die so the FL sized case is a slight" crush fit" in the rifle chamber.

Then load one of the bullets you intend to use in the case making a "dummy" round. See if that chambers. If so you are good to go for general shooting with cast or jacketed bullets. To wring out the best accuracy you may want to uniform the necks though by turning or reaming. Also I've found some cases formed from 300-06 based cases require annealing of the newly formed neck and shoulder. Some cases do not.

However, to answer your specific question; yes, I have tried cases formed from 7.62 NATO cases (308W) and the necks are way too short. With small charges of fast pistol powders and cast bullets they work ok. With regular full power loads erosion in the chamber neck forward of the too short case neck and throat becomes a problem. I prefer to use proper fitting cases. Using 8x57 cases to begin with is an easier solution as they are easier to find, usually cheaper and are easily formed in the 7.65 FL die requiring only final trimming and no annealing. Also, in forming they can be formed to fit the rifle chamber perfectly avoiding that 1st firing case stretch.

[444ttd]

i just got a lee 7.65x53 argentine dies and 7.65x53 argentine prvi brass from grafs. they go good in my 91 argentine mauser(1900).

[cwlongshot]

Never had much trouble running an lubed and annealed 30/96 case tbru a 7.65 RCBS case and trimming...

CW

[cosmoline one]

I used to use a form die (redding I think) for 8mm/7.7 jap but find it easier to cut cases close to length with a mini saw, then FL size & trim & prep casses as usual

[1hole]

I've long made my 7.65 Arg. cases from surplus .30-06 cases jammed into Herter's dies. Herter's tools were the Lee of their day, so inexpensive that a lot of people sneered at them but, like Lee's, they did and still do exactly what any other brand of dies can do. And, if Lee's dies were in anyway substandard they would not have been so happily bought by so many loaders for decades.

I have used many dies from many makers, many of which left the firing line long ago (Herter's, etc.). In some 50+ years of reloading, the single set of dies I ever found to be out of tolerance was a set of (mid 1970's) Savage Arm's .243 (yeah, THAT Savage) and they flashed on and back off the market in just a couple of years.

You may be having a "thick neck" problem. Much of your 7.65's case neck will be a thickish part of the -06's case walls. I have to skim turn or ream my reformed necks a few thou to obtain proper chambering.

Proper annealing of your finished necks will help them to last longer but ... heating brass to a visible glow will destroy its spring back. That will leave you with no real bullet grip and once it's gone there's no way to get it back. I'm not going into a long explanation of how I learned that, just trust me and don't let your nice new 7.65 necks get red.

Last point, set back and reformed case shoulders are always a bit rounded; firing one full pressure load will fix that.

You have a nice rifle, good luck!

[abunaitoo]

Had the same problem with the Lee dies.
They just don't seem to size enough to use as a forming die.
The RCBS dies had no problem.
For reloading, the Lee die work great.
No idea why this is.
I use 30.06 or .270. Both work fine.

[EDG]

I have Lee dies and they DO NOT size enough to make cases work in 4 Argentine Mausers. They are about .010 longer than RCBS dies in the same cal.
I also have 4 RCBS FL dies and a RCBS trim die and they are all exactly a match for the Argentine chambers.

I have made several hundred 7.65 Mauser cases from USGI 30-06 cases with the SL-54 headstamp. None of the necks are too large for my 4 rifles. These are 3 1891s and 1 1909 rifle.

[mac60]

Had the same problem with the Lee dies.
They just don't seem to size enough to use as a forming die.
The RCBS dies had no problem.
For reloading, the Lee die work great.
No idea why this is.
I use 30.06 or .270. Both work fine.

This mirrors my experience as well. I chose to remove material from the shellholder instead of the die itself. It worked after a fashion, but I still wasn't satisfied. I found a set of CH dies and never looked back.

[3006guns]

The comment about the Belgian and Argentine cases being "different" triggered a memory. I was using actual Argentine surplus brass, priming with Berdans and ran into a screwy problem......the cases wouldn't fit in a standard shell holder! I tried Lee, RCBS and one other with no luck. I finally ordered a shell holder from CH4D and they slid in no problem. Moral of the story? Things aren't as "standard" as they seem...........:)