Webley Mark 1

[Ajohns]

Maybe this needs to be in the gunsmith section. I have a Webley Mark 1 that's been shaved and I want to get some loading done for it. Thanks to all who have posted light loads for the 45 rim, big help to me so I can start. But, as I'd like to get some measurements done on this, I'll be jiggered if I can get the cylinder assembly out. I removed the big headed screw to the base pin, but I don't know what to do from there. This model doesn't have the other screws and lock system, am I blind on something, or is the pin stuck?

Thanks!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I wish I could offer some help, but I've never encountered one of the "Marks" earlier than the Mk. IV. A quick run through my reference library didn't even turn up a picture of one, let alone a schematic. You might do better to seek help for this problem on a Webley collector forum (if there is one), British guns, or a forum that covers just revolvers. Good luck.

[Baltimoreed]

Open the gun up and remove the large headed screw on the left side of the bbl assembly in front of the cylinder directly in front of the holster wedge. The cylinder should lift right out. Might need some penetrating oil if it’s rusty. Don’t have mine here or I’d take some pix.

[Ajohns]

Baltimoreed, that's just what I did. But it must be jammed. It isn't rusty, but maybe in there it is, I'll try get some more juice in there. If that is all that it takes I can get it apart one way or another. I just didn't know if it was like an old top break Smith with a course thread or what? This weekend if I get it apart I'll take some pictures.

Thanks!

[Baltimoreed]

I don’t think that these were threaded in, later ones are. Been years since I’ve played with my Mk1. With the screw out will the ejector cam move it when the gun is opened? You might take it apart at the hinge and peek in there from the bottom. See if anything looks in a bind.

[Ajohns]

When the screw is out, the cam works. I took the barrel off the frame, cam out and still I couldn't get the cylinder off, but I didn't really use force by rubber hammer or anything.
The old Smiths, lifting the sight/latch and spinning the cylinder counter cw they come out. But I have no idea if there's anything like that goin on here. Just seems the base pin is pretty stuck in the frame. I can keep trying and see what goes on.

[Baltimoreed]

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Penetrating oil and time. Would NOT use any heat from a flame but boiling water wouldn’t be too hot. For the life of me I can’t remember how mine came apart but here are some photos that might help you figure your gun out. You might be able to alternately rap the back and front of the bbl with a soft rubber mallet to get things started and get oil into it.

[Ajohns]

Thank you! Will check into it and let you know. Had no time to goof with it this past weekend.

[Ajohns]

That's all it took. Little juice and held the cylinder in the rubber jaws of the vise. Tapped the top strap and it slid right off. Thanks for the advise and diagrams!

[Texas by God]

I want to piggyback onto this with question of my own. If the Webley "shaved" revolvers have .455"+ barrels- why is it considered unsafe to shoot .451" .45 ACP ammo in them? A friends dad had one and we blissfully, ignorantly shot .45 hardball and .45 Auto Rim in it.

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[KCSO]

455 is a lot lower pressure round than the 45 ACP. ACP will shoot the Webley loose in no time, ask me, I know. The 455 has a muzzle velocity of about 650 fps and in the right light you can see the bullet fly through the air. I have repaired a shave cylinder by soldering on a shim ring and re machining the cylinder holes a lot of work but good if you have 455 ammo.

[Texas by God]

That clears that up thank you very much.

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[Baltimoreed]

I’m sure that the .004 difference between the .45acp and .455 Webley saved a lot of these old warhorses. Gave them a way to safely release the pressure of the too hot [for them] ammo.

[Outpost75]

I’m sure that the .004 difference between the .45acp and .455 Webley saved a lot of these old warhorses. Gave them a way to safely release the pressure of the too hot [for them] ammo.

Not necessarily so...

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[Texas by God]

I want to read the rest of the story, Outpost 75! Yikes.

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[Baltimoreed]

Ugly. You can push anything past it’s limits. I watched [from a couple of steps behind him] a cas shooter blow the cylinder and top strap off of a Colt 3rd generation SA with his first shot. No one got hurt, except his feelings. An intentional [accidental] gross overload, I don’t remember if it was the wrong amount of the right powder or the right amount of the wrong powder.

[Lionel Allen]

The 455 runs about 12000psi, where the 45 ACP runs about 20000, or is it 21000psi?
So running a 45 ACP is like running a proof load through the gun every time you drop the hammer.
Pretty hard on these old guns that don't have the higher test steel of modern guns, or the strength in the way they were engineered.

[Outpost75]

I want to read the rest of the story, Outpost 75! Yikes.

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The .455 Webley has a maximum operating pressure (sample average) of 12,700 psi, whereas .45 ACP may run up to 19,900 psi. This means that when firing your imported surplus Webley, commonly modified to fire .45 ACP for the US market, every time you pull the trigger, you're re-proofing the gun!

Marks I through III of earlier Webley service revolvers were proofed only for black powder.

While many converted Mk IV and later .455 Webley revolvers have survived repeated firing of .45 ACP ammunition, such treatment is equivalent to an accelerated endurance test, feeding the revolver a steady diet of proof loads. Such abuse is testimony to the sturdiness of these revolvers, because this practice certainly cannot be considered safe.

The blown up revolver pictured which came into the shop and now serves as a training aid, was fired with WW2-era US M1911 Ball ammunition. Cylinder throats of all original Webley revolvers I have measured have been tighter than barrel groove diameter, typically .449-.451."

Colts and S&Ws in .455 can be successfully "shaved" because they usually have large cylinder throats of .456-.459” with barrel groove diameters being .454-.457”.

Forcing oversized bullets into tight cylinder throats increases chamber pressure DANGEROUSLY, PARTICULARLY when bullets are full metal jacketed or cast hard and when fast-burning, high-energy double-base propellants such as Bullseye (common in WW2 Ball ammo) are used!

Safe results in loading for the .455 require SOFT lead bullets not exceeding 10 BHN, sized to fit the cylinder throats. If you plan on shooting your Webley very much, I highly recommend having DougGuy hone the cylinder throats to clean up frosting left from use of Cordite service ammunition assembled with corrosive primers, and to also uniform cylinder throats to a true .455" diameter. Doing so will usually cut group sizes about in HALF using soft bullets which fit in correct loads.

A safe pressure-tested load for the Boer War (MkIV) and later Webley top-breaks is 3.5 grains of Bullseye with the 265-grain lead Mk2 service bullet or Accurate 45-264D in thew Starline, Hornady or Fiocchi Mk2 (0.76") cases. In the S&W .455 Hand Ejector and Colt New Service .455 Eley this load may be increased one-half grain for .45 Auto Rim (0.88") cases.

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[Ajohns]

That's all it took. Little juice and held the cylinder in the rubber jaws of the vise. Tapped the top strap and it slid right off. Thanks for the advise and diagrams!

[Ajohns]

Oops, posted again.
Thanks for all the info here, I have this one to shoot. I reamed the cylinder throats to an even .454. They were mostly at about .450. Slugging the barrel is next. I also squared the muzzle off in the mill as it was dinged and not square, then recrown. I have some hollow base 260 grainers to try. I'm looking forward to it.

[Ajohns]

So far, 3.5 grs of Titegroup and a 265gr Beartooth hollow base are shooting quite nice! Shoots a little high, but that's at 12/15 yds. Rings 3" steel every time.

[Baltimoreed]

Glad to hear that it’s fixed and shooting again.

[Ajohns]

Yes, thank you for your help! Those heavy slow round noses really ricochet after a hit on the swinging steel or a through a can off the ground.

[Baltimoreed]

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These are some that I cast, thinking it’s a 265 gr HB RCBS mould. Aggravating to cast for sure but are correct and shoot well in my Webleys.

[Ajohns]

These Bear Creek pills I bought off GB. So far so good, but I think he casts them a bit hard. Thought he said 10-12.

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Rings steel, but I have to shoot some paper