Hellcat vs. J-frame for CCW

[Hrfunk]

Here's a comparison between the tried and true and the new kid on the block. Let me know your thoughts!

Howard


https://youtu.be/Aa0Oq_9eOd4

[Eddie Southgate]

I'll stick with my J frame .

[megasupermagnum]

There is one huge advantage to that revolver not to be understated, for me at least. In loose shorts where a smooth draw is questionable, a revolver will still function inside the pocket.

[Gray Fox]

Between the wife and I we have 5 hammerless J frames and two Ruger LC9s with the Crimson Trace lasers. Only the J frames ever get carried, usually with a speed strip for reloads. I have one of the custom shop guns with night sights in .357. If I'm feeling real masochistic I'll shoot a few .357s, but usually carry Rem 110 grain +Ps in it and the rest of them, too. My wife's handgun purse gun and my custom shop gun have Crimson trace grips. In summer I usually carry it in a pocket holster in the right rear pocket of my shorts. GF

[rintinglen]

I carry either the S&W 342 or a Ruger LCP when I need the smallest, practical firearm. Especially when pocket carry is on the agenda, one of those will be along for the ride, because of their very light weight. My LCP weighs only about a half ounce more than my 25 Beretta, and the 342 just a smidgen more than 2 ounces more than that. I shoot a revolver generally better than a DA auto. I don't think the Hellcat will bump either from their position. However, my Glock 19 is on notice: It better watch its step, cause there's a new kid in town that is lighter, thinner, and at least as accurate.

[Idaho45guy]

Here's a comparison between the tried and true and the new kid on the block. Let me know your thoughts!

Howard


https://youtu.be/Aa0Oq_9eOd4

I've always liked your videos. Perfect and precise presentation with no tactical ninja crap and too tight T-shirts and "operator" beards.

I think it's fairly obvious what is the better carry gun if you go by facts and evidence, but no way you will get 90% of the members here to admit that their revolver is inferior.

The Hellcat/P365 is easier to shoot, smaller and thinner, holds 100% or more rounds, and is cheaper.

I had a 642 for a few years that my ex-wife carried. She shot it twice. Even with .38 special loads it was harsh and uncomfortable and hard to be accurate with.

My girlfriend loves shooting my P365. It instills confidence, is accurate, and has been 100% reliable.

Revolver fans always point to the "average" self-defense shooting of under 7 yards and 2-3 rounds, but nearly every month, a shooting makes national press that involves further distances with multiple attackers and 10 rounds or more used to stop the attack. Last week was the one in Vegas.

Since most people will never be involved in a self-defense shooting, they can continue to carry a 5-shot revolver and never have to worry if they have enough ammo or if it will be accurate enough.

Heck, carry a .22 LR derringer and feel adequately prepared; you'll probably never have to use it anyways.

But don't look down your nose at those of us who actually like to carry a much more efficient, capable, and smarter handgun.

[bmortell]

i always though grip shape matters more than size. similar to trying to hide an egg in your pocket or under shirt compared to a cube, ill take the egg

[Drm50]

What you carry is a personal choice and opinion. Why some worry about what others are carrying is beyond me. Then go out of their way to make anybody that doesn’t agree with them wrong.

[35remington]

Yep.

What I carry is superior to what any of the rest of y’all chose to carry. Because my judgement is so superior, I will now bless you with my flawless opinion and you ignore it at your peril someday, if the world be a just one.

[35remington]

One of the reasons I absolutely cannot discount the carrying of a revolver is from watching John Correia’s ASP channel. Over many videos I have seen multiple individuals make an autoloader malfunction (including cops) by mishandling it intentionally or unintentionally or the autoloader just plain malfunctions. This is not a sunny day at the range but rather real life.

The additional layer of mishandling protection a revolver offers in ensuring the contents of the gun go off as intended seems to be a weighty counterbalance to the downsides of a revolver that ought to be carefully considered. If after reflection someone decides on the revolver for themselves that reason why is a definitive one.

[Idaho45guy]

Revolvers fail, too...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpmdaap6oNE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoiY-7PEXsw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9BMdzl4rNQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQUEHF_QRNc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_LGqMOvTRA

[bmortell]

hes talking about low chance of operator error in revolvers, nothing you linked was operator error. anything can just straight up break or bind up

[Idaho45guy]

hes talking about low chance of operator error in revolvers, nothing you linked was operator error. anything can just straight up break or bind up

Fair enough.

[35remington]

That was my intent, yes. When speaking of the rounds already in the gun the revolver is substantially more forgiving of user related mistakes. No slide stop to accidentally engage, not possible to block or slow the slide, moving the gun rapidly backward while firing does not cause a short cycle, not providing room for the case to eject, entangled use, etc. All of these were well represented.

[Hrfunk]

There is one huge advantage to that revolver not to be understated, for me at least. In loose shorts where a smooth draw is questionable, a revolver will still function inside the pocket.

I've seen this stated many times over the years and I'm certain I've recited it myself at some point, but does anyone know of an instance where someone actually fired a revolver from inside their pocket? By the way megasupermagnum, I'm not picking on you directly, I'm just throwing this question out to the group. I'm also not suggesting it's NEVER happened, but I've not heard or read of it (and I've done a good bit of hearing and reading about such things).

Howard

[onelight]

We like to think we are smart enough and disciplined enough to NEVER make a dumb mistake.
I still keep bandaids at home and still keep all my insurance up to date .
The features that make a da revolver harder to shoot than a striker pistol also make them more forgiving of a laps of attention than a striker fired gun . There is a safety aspect to a long da pull for a gun that goes in and out of a pocket as often as an edc gun does.
If my gun is not in a belt carry holster I want a da trigger we get to pick what we are comfortable with .
Pocket carry for me is my last choice but all my pocket guns are da auto or revolver.
Take your pick and be safe :grin:

[35remington]

I too prefer a DA gun for pocket carry on the rare occasions I do so. Carrying an LCP2 in the pocket would make me nervous and uncomfortable. An LCP not so.

I have not seen or heard of any incidences of revolver pocket shoot throughs but I have certainly not been exposed to information that is all encompassing.

What is fascinating about the ASP database is how often entangled gunfighting occurs. It is far far more common than having to shoot a lot of rounds. Due to proximity of the assailant when a malf with an autoloader occurs there is zero time or ability to clear it and the gun essentially becomes, at best, a club.

[megasupermagnum]

I've seen this stated many times over the years and I'm certain I've recited it myself at some point, but does anyone know of an instance where someone actually fired a revolver from inside their pocket? By the way megasupermagnum, I'm not picking on you directly, I'm just throwing this question out to the group. I'm also not suggesting it's NEVER happened, but I've not heard or read of it (and I've done a good bit of hearing and reading about such things).

Howard

Are you asking if it can be done, or if it has been used in self defense? It can be done, there are videos out there. I've done it myself, and obviously not very accurate, it would be effective at close ranges say under 5 yards. I can't recite a case where a person used this technique in self defense. On the other hand I doubt anyone would know if you did. It's rare we even hear what caliber was used. I would be surprised if it has not been used in crime, just look at the old "finger gun in the pocket to pretend it's a real gun" This wouldn't exist if it has not been done in the past.

[scattershot]

I've seen this stated many times over the years and I'm certain I've recited it myself at some point, but does anyone know of an instance where someone actually fired a revolver from inside their pocket? By the way megasupermagnum, I'm not picking on you directly, I'm just throwing this question out to the group. I'm also not suggesting it's NEVER happened, but I've not heard or read of it (and I've done a good bit of hearing and reading about such things).

Howard


It always seemed to me to me a good way to set your clothes on fire.

[Hrfunk]

Are you asking if it can be done, or if it has been used in self defense? It can be done, there are videos out there. I've done it myself, and obviously not very accurate, it would be effective at close ranges say under 5 yards. I can't recite a case where a person used this technique in self defense. On the other hand I doubt anyone would know if you did. It's rare we even hear what caliber was used. I would be surprised if it has not been used in crime, just look at the old "finger gun in the pocket to pretend it's a real gun" This wouldn't exist if it has not been done in the past.

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the reply. I was asking about actual shooting incidents where someone had to resort to this tactic.

Howard

[Thundarstick]

I've always liked your videos. Perfect and precise presentation with no tactical ninja crap and too tight T-shirts and "operator" beards.

I think it's fairly obvious what is the better carry gun if you go by facts and evidence, but no way you will get 90% of the members here to admit that their revolver is inferior.

The Hellcat/P365 is easier to shoot, smaller and thinner, holds 100% or more rounds, and is cheaper.

I had a 642 for a few years that my ex-wife carried. She shot it twice. Even with .38 special loads it was harsh and uncomfortable and hard to be accurate with.

My girlfriend loves shooting my P365. It instills confidence, is accurate, and has been 100% reliable.

Revolver fans always point to the "average" self-defense shooting of under 7 yards and 2-3 rounds, but nearly every month, a shooting makes national press that involves further distances with multiple attackers and 10 rounds or more used to stop the attack. Last week was the one in Vegas.

Since most people will never be involved in a self-defense shooting, they can continue to carry a 5-shot revolver and never have to worry if they have enough ammo or if it will be accurate enough.

Heck, carry a .22 LR derringer and feel adequately prepared; you'll probably never have to use it anyways.

But don't look down your nose at those of us who actually like to carry a much more efficient, capable, and smarter handgun.

I guess I'm the exception. I switched from a J Frame carrying 6 rounds of 327FM to a Sig 365 with 11 rounds of 9mm. Each platform has its strengths and weaknesses. It's up to YOU to be proficient with what YOU carry. Personally, I'm comfortable with either and I shoot both very well because I practice! BTW, I'm not carrying anything in my pocket NOT in a proper holster that covers the trigger DA or striker fired!

[Thundarstick]

One more thing, in a tussle either can be disabled if the other guy knows what he's doing.

[35remington]

True that. Thing with a revolver is there is no jammed case to clear once the gun is freed. If an autoloader is fired and the case does not come out two hands are required to clear the gun at a time when two hands are not available.

This occurred more than a few times in the referenced videos.

[megasupermagnum]

One more thing, in a tussle either can be disabled if the other guy knows what he's doing.

As far as I know, there is no good way to stop a semi-auto for that first shot. As for the rest of the shots, cycling a slide with one hand using your pants is not that hard, although it does hurt to practice.

[35remington]

The problem in the altercations was that the gun was free to fire the first shot unimpeded. Due to error and the first shot being ineffective or a miss a second shot was needed. At that point the gun was inoperable. Close proximity to the assailant makes the odds of autoloader malfunction go up due to errors being made by the user in grasping or manipulating the gun for the first shot. Contact with the assailant may also be in play in making the gun choke.

Close proximity to danger makes people do things to pistols they do not do on the range....poor grasp, thumbs or fingers in the wrong place, moving the gun while firing, etc.

I have yet to see someone successfully clear a malf while in close proximity to someone trying to do them harm. All pretty much had too much else to do to make it viable. No space or time for problem solving.

[Thundarstick]

As far as I know, there is no good way to stop a semi-auto for that first shot. As for the rest of the shots, cycling a slide with one hand using your pants is not that hard, although it does hurt to practice.

Grab the slide on an auto and push it even slightly out of battery (even on a striker gun) and it's a paper weight, grab the cylinder on a DA revolver and just see if the trigger finger can overcome the mechanical advantage of a held cylinder, get a body part (ex thumb) between the hammer and frame and it's a stop.

[ReloaderFred]

As far as I know, there is no good way to stop a semi-auto for that first shot. As for the rest of the shots, cycling a slide with one hand using your pants is not that hard, although it does hurt to practice.

The slide can be pushed back far enough to unlock the firing mechanism, but it's an awful chancy affair to try it, since it takes very close contact with the firearm at the instant the trigger is pulled.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Idaho45guy]

I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the reply. I was asking about actual shooting incidents where someone had to resort to this tactic.

Howard

I've only seen it in the movies.

Seems to me that if you had enough room in your pocket to rotate a revolver upwards towards an attacker, then you have plenty of room for a slide to function, since it rotates rearward along the same plane as your wrist.

[megasupermagnum]

I've only seen it in the movies.

Seems to me that if you had enough room in your pocket to rotate a revolver upwards towards an attacker, then you have plenty of room for a slide to function, since it rotates rearward along the same plane as your wrist.

The P365 will not function in athletic shorts. A hammerless revolver will. I'm seeing they make special athletic wear with a built in holster for men and women that may solve the problem anyway. I don't know what Hrfunk normally wears, maybe he wears pants all year and this is a non issue for him. In the peak of summer, when I'm not at work, I'll often be as lightly dressed as possible. Light shorts and a T shirt.

[onelight]

I've only seen it in the movies.

Seems to me that if you had enough room in your pocket to rotate a revolver upwards towards an attacker, then you have plenty of room for a slide to function, since it rotates rearward along the same plane as your wrist.
Lay a towel over the the top of your gun and hold you wrist at the angle like you would in your pocket and see if it will cycle.
I think it will be highly unlikely but I have been surprised before.

[Idaho45guy]

Lay a towel over the the top of your gun and hold you wrist at the angle like you would in your pocket and see if it will cycle.
I think it will be highly unlikely but I have been surprised before.

I think the person that advocated firing a revolver from his shorts pocket and stated that a pistol couldn't be fired in the same manner should have to prove what he stated.

[megasupermagnum]

If you look through his videos, Paul has shown shooting from clothes many times. I couldn't find the one with him shooting with shorts, but I did find the one with jackets, which is probably a better video anyway. He has some funny ones too, shooting from a bed (while in a thunderstorm), shooting from/through cars, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAYkoXtulWI

[rking22]

Another revolver guy here, but you’re welcome to carry anything you feel personally comfortable with. I will not carry, for civilian ccw, anything that dose not have a substantial DA trigger pull, for every shot. Under life and death stress the fine muscle control is not there, a little extra effort to break that trigger could be very important. Glock had it right, ccw guns should not require a manual safety, but I feel those striker guns are too light in the trigger. Everyone should do regular malfunction drills for what they carry, for my M36 it “no bang? Pull it again”. My Kahr CW45 requires a bit more in the way of malfunction clearing, although it has been very reliable. But, remember Mr. Murphy?? Also I cannot comprehend why people “rotate” their carry guns, finding you have a cocked and locked 1911 today instead of the glock could be pretty irritating. I have a couple I carry, but all are no safety DA only, and the bobbed M36 is 99.999% what’s there. KISS , why make something more complicated than necessary. Already stated you have a minuscule chance of needing it, even more minuscule chance that if you need it you will need more than 5. For folk that enjoy training, autos are fine, for most people they require more training than folk will invest. Nice vid, by the way!

[winelover]

Nice video comparison. Haven't seen the Hellcat, as yet, in my LGS. It's an interesting choice and a viable option for one looking to enter the micro compact semi auto market.

My daily carry is usually a J-frame or a 357 LCR, in a Mika pocket holster. I don't get to town much, so a five shot revolver is enough for carrying around my acreage. It goes in my pocket, when I awake and stays there till I go to bed. Light weight is a must. Very few semi auto's are weight friendly, especially when you start adding 2-3 times more rounds.

I do own a Beretta Nano and a Kahr CM-9, both of which seem to be equal in size to the Hellcat, based on your video. I lost confidence in the Nano, when I had the recoil spring assembly shatter and tie up the pistol. Hence, the purchase of the Kahr. I can say from experience, both semi's are slower on the draw, from the same pocket holster. The J-frame sized revolvers, even though they are longer, are easier to present. Another advantage to the revolver is the ability to digest shot loads, without having to resort to manual ejection...........there are six different venomous snakes in Arkansas.

I won't carry anything that has a safety or a hammer, preferably without a slide release. It also must be DAO. The Hellcat fits my criteria. I will fondle one, whenever my LGS gets one in. I'm a fan of SA and own a XD Model 2 compact. Like the pistol very much but too large and heavy for my daily carry.

Winelover

[izzyjoe]

I just picked up a Ruger Ec9s, and really taking a liking to it, it's only 7rds but I'm getting another mag. Trigger is not bad, but better than the wife's 642, which is ok at best! Now to find a good IWB holster.

[Gray Fox]

The main reason I bought the two original LC9 pistols was the smooth, albeit long, DA first trigger pull from the partially cocked hammer. However, having first been taught to shoot a revolver in 1962, and having taught hundreds of folks to shoot them since then, my first choice is a revolver. While it could also be true of a revolver, I have found too many folks who think that the many rounds in a magazine are more important than the nest one the firing pin or striker is going to hit. This past year I have gotten two of the 8-shot S&W .357s, which I like a lot, BTW, and I really have to consciously remember there are two more rounds in the cylinder. There are lots of years of shooting and training to overcome. GF

[Rick Hodges]

I suppose if anyone has a record of firing a J-frame from the pocket it would be the Michigan State Police. They used to mandate a full flapped crossdraw holster, but issued a shrouded J-frame as a backup carried in the jacket or trouser pocket. That Trooper approaching you with his hand casually in his pocket, was not as casual as you might believe. I don't know if the drill was to shoot through the pocket or draw first. I talked to at least one who kept the chamber of the holstered weapon empty. His thought was it was so slow to get into action that the added time of chambering a round (Israeli style) would not hamper him and might buy him the time to use the J-frame should he be disarmed in a tussle.

I know of at least one case of a Glock 23 firing and cycling normally burning the skin and hair of the leg and charring and melting a pair of polyester pants, while neatly perforating the floorboard of a detective's car.
There is a reason they make holsters, and frantic grasping at handguns sliding down your "Sans-a-belt" britches is not the preferred method of testing such theories.

I can tell this tale because the person involved passed some years ago....prior to that I was sworn to secrecy...…..not that he didn't hear about it way more often than he would have liked.

[WinchesterM1]

I love my hellcat I carry it everywhere with me!!!! This is a full mag at 15 yards with the first time me out shooting it 262990
262991

[Petrol & Powder]

HR, thank you once again for a great video.
That was a good, straight-up comparison.

A snubnose, DAO, internal hammer revolver has been my choice for concealed carry for many years. I know that I will not switch platforms but I recognize the strengths and weaknesses of both revolvers and pistols.

Equipment has changed considerably over the last 30 years. There was a time when a small pocket pistol was going to be a blow back action chambered in 32 ACP or at best, a 380 Auto. We now have far move options. There are locked breach pistols chambered in 9mm Luger that are no larger than the 380 Auto pistols that were once the only choice in the class.

There was a time when I was bouncing around like a jackrabbit from one weapon to another. I just couldn't settle on a weapon and I knew that I needed to get serious. I landed on a snubnose DAO revolver chambered in 38 Special and dedicated myself to that platform. In all honesty, I think if I had made that commitment just a few years later, I would have landed on the pistol platform and not the DAO revolver. I'm married to that platform now and that's all there is to it.

Way back when the world was flat, I was told, "beware of the man with one gun, he probably knows how to use it". I think there is a lot of truth to that.

[marshall623]

I just picked up a Ruger Ec9s, and really taking a liking to it, it's only 7rds but I'm getting another mag. Trigger is not bad, but better than the wife's 642, which is ok at best! Now to find a good IWB holster.I bought a EC9 last spring , so far its a good shooting little gun and like 124gr cast . I carry it in a "We The People" inside the waist band holster . I carry 124gr Hornady XTP factory rounds .

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