.357 Herret vs .357 Maximum?

[jason280]

I recently got back into T/C Contenders, and have picked up a couple 14" barrels in .357 Herrett and .357 Maximum. I've owned a Max before in a 10" Contender, but this is my first experience with the Herrett. While I like the oddball/"neat" factor of the Herrett, I'm beginning to think there may be no real benefit over the Max for deer under 100 yards (more like 50-75). I don't plan on using any pointed bullets, and the idea was to use 158-180gr Hornady XTP's.

Anyone have experience with either (or both)? I know the Max will be considerably easier to load for, as I won't have to deal with forming brass, but its not as though I will be shooting either very much.

Suggestions?

[Dan Cash]

I don't have either one but think I would prefer the Herrett. If you decide on the Herrett, I think I have good Herrett sizing die you can have for the asking.

[contender1]

I own several Contender barrels,, including a 10" & 14" bull in .357 Maxi. I have owned a Herrett,, and it left here. No need,, as several other calibers filled the needs,, AND are easier to load for.
Recently,, over on the SA forum,, David Bradshaw & Lee Martin designed a special cast bullet for the 357 Maxi,, that is SUPERB!!!!!!! The "Martin/Bradshaw" casts at 195 grns, powder coated,, and tested will give excellent accuracy at 100 yds & beyond. MV is around 1450 fps. DO a little research on it over there,, and you will find a wealth of info. Mostly,, they are using it in the Ruger revolvers,,, but I have put it through both my T/C bbls.
Can't say enough good about it.
David was in on the initial development of the Ruger 357 Maxi way back when too.

Did I mention I prefer the Maxi over the Herrett?

[jason280]

Interesting, I may have to do a little research on the 195gr cast bullet!

[uscra112]

Since there's high quality factory brass available for the Max, I can't see messing with the Herrett unless you're a masochist. (Says he who got into a .30 Herrett barrel some years ago. and quickly lost interest.)

[M-Tecs]

Never had a .357 Maximum. I purchase a 357 Herrett when I was 14 years old. I really learned a lot with it. It performed as advertised and I really enjoyed shooting it. Forming brass isn't bad but switched to 35 Rem. and stopped shooting the Herrett so it got sold or traded for other Contender barrels.

http://www.handgunhunt.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/87317/page/5/fpart/1

“…Small cartridges like the .357 Magnum and .357 Maximum are not even in the same league as the .35 Remington when it comes to big game…” “…Better performance than is possible with the .357 Herrett…”. .35 Remington by Bob Milek Guns and Ammo February, 1986

[megasupermagnum]

I never worked with the 357 herrett, but have shot the 30 herrett. I also have loaded for 357 maximum in a DW revolver. Right off the bat, I'll say I wouldn't mess with 158 grain bullets. I found best accuracy with the 357 maximum above 200 grain, but a 180 grian XTP may be a fair choice. I like the Lyman 358627, 215 grain SWC and IMR 4227.

I was not impressed with either the 357 maximum or 30 herrett. In the case of the 30 herrett, I don't see what real advantage it has over 30-30. I would think the 357 herrett has a small boost over the 357 maximum, but neither is a common cartridge. I also was not overly impressed with 357 maximum. For such an ungainly revolver required to fit it, it sure didn't seem to provide that much more over 357 magnum, even with its 9 1/2" barrel. Maybe a 14" would see a larger boost.

If I wanted a 35 caliber Contender pistol, and didn't want 357 magnum, I would go for 35 remington.

[NSB]

I've been shooting the .357max for around six years now in rifles, both Encore and Win Low Wall. During that time I've kept pretty good records on many, many different loads tried and accuracy results. Most of the comments posted so far are pretty far off the mark. My current "fun gun" is my second MGM barrel on an Encore frame. It's 20" long and has a 1:16 twist. My other MGM barrel was 24" long and had a 1:20 twist. Of the two, I like the shorter, faster twist barrel as it covers a wider variety of bullet weights for accuracy. There is very little load data available that's printed in loading manuals. The most difficult part of using this cartridge is getting safe loads that realize its full potential. I have several safe loads that will push a 158g Hornady XTP-FP bullet to over 2400fps. This is using 1680 powder. The gun will print 1.0" five shot groups at 100 yards and 3.0" groups at 200 yards. I also use the Hornady XTP-HP 180g bullet and it shoots equally as good. Both of these bullets have accounted for a dozen or so deer over the last couple of years. Last year I ran into a batch of the Hornady XTP bullets that began to fragment at about 10% and would not even reach the target. I believe that pushing these bullets to that velocity is beyond the end of their capability. I started using the 180g XTP's instead of the lighter 158g. I recently tried using Speer Hot Core 180g bullets and have found that they shoot tighter groups than the XTP's were shooting. I'm getting sub 1moa groups (five shots) at 100 yards and they are made to be pushed to higher velocities than the pistol bullets are. These can be pushed fast, safe, and accurately. Both Lil Gun and Viht 120 are great powders for this bullet. The .357max is a far better rifle/TC round than it ever was a pistol round. Cases are readily available, it likes a lot of different powders, and it's a great cartridge easily out to 150 yards for most shooters. The .357 Herret is a good round, but simply not worth the extra work to make, load, and offers no better end performance.
The Max can be sized in a carbide sizing die also. Same on you use on a .357mag.

[contender1]

NSB makes some interesting points.
However,, the OP was asking about the Contender barrels in 14",, not longer rifle barrels. Nor barrels with different twists.

David Bradshaw was working with Bill Ruger Jr. during the development of the 357 Maxi in a revolver. And while the revolvers were test with a LOT of variables,, (including barrel lengths, & rifling twists,) they settled upon the 7-1/2" & 10". I don't recall the twist offhand,, but the design was to allow the stabilization of heavy bullets at long range for silhouette shooting, and hunting. Since David helped design the caliber & such,, he has tested a lot more than most any of us,,, and his information on this caliber is invaluable.
I'd suggest taking the time to read all he has written on the subject over on the SA Forum.
And the Rugers,, while excellent,,, suffered from others who wanted light bullets at warp speeds. It caused some flame cutting of the topstrap, which made many "complain" & created a bit of negative attitude towards the caliber in a revolver. This caused Bill Sr. to stop production & scrap 5000 Maxi revolvers.
T/C began making barrels, and has for many years,, which in general, has been a fine choice. But again,, throat erosion has occurred when light bullets,, combined with faster, hotter powder has been used.
The caliber & guns SHINE with heavier bullets than the "normal" .357 bullets. 180 grn was considered the best factory ammo weight when it was being designed.
So, David, along with Lee,,, designed the Martin/Bradshaw bullet to optimize the potential of the caliber. Mostly for the revolvers. But I own both T/C Contender barrel lengths,, and can say that it is also excellent in them. Mountain Molds makes the mold, and is available quite quickly. David has just recently (in the past few years,) began experimenting with powder coated bullets,, and Lee helped work on a lot of that end along with other details. The result is a superb cast boolit,, that performs quite well.
I STRONGLY suggest you do the research over there on all this. I've been shooting & using the .357 Maxi for over 20 years,, & this new bullet design is proving the real capabilities of the Maxi. ESPECIALLY in revolvers AND the Contenders. A 195 grn bullet,, cast & PCed,, moving at 1465 fps (approximately, using the load data Lee & David have provided,) is quite capable of taking big game here in North America. I'd not hesitate to use it on elk, bear, moose etc. In fact,, for a 200 yd deer caliber combo,, it's quite capable.

But do not take my word for it,, do the research & study what was done by the man who was in on the original design.

Edit; Here is a picture of my cast, PCed, & loaded (per David & Lee's info,) .357 Maxi. Bradshaw/Martin design.

https://i.postimg.cc/GpzwbtcX/P1040022.jpg (https://postimg.cc/kVVhcnRS)

[NSB]

NSB makes some interesting points.
However,, the OP was asking about the Contender barrels in 14",, not longer rifle barrels. Nor barrels with different twists.
I added this bit of text because I didn't feel that there was a really significant difference between a 14" contender barrel and a 20" Encore barrel. I'm sure there's some differences, but there's a lot of similarities. Back in its heyday, a very popular bullet for the Ruger revolver was the Hornady Sil 160g bullet. This bullet makes a decent hunting bullet out of a TC/Encore if driven at a high enough velocity. As per my conversations with Hornady, the bullet's jacket is twice as thick as the XTP and it does have a small opening in the jacket for bullet expansion. If you can find these bullets, they shoot the same as the XTP's but can be driven at higher velocities......like 2700fps without failure. I personally don't push anything that far, but at 2400fps they should be just fine. It's wise to know the twist of your barrel, a 1:20 is significantly harder to find good loads for than a 1:16. They can be found, but they won't be the heavier bullets....just sharing information on that point. If the OP's going to get into shooting a max, I'm just trying to share what I learned over the last six years shooting many different powders and bullets with mixed results. Other than being an avid hunter, I'm one of those old geezers who really likes to spend time at the shooting bench looking for good groups (too many years shooting competitions).

[charlie b]

I'm another former .30 Herrett owner and I'd not own another one. A PITA to form and set the shoulder during reloading (it headspaces on the shoulder not the rim). As stated before, the .30-30 is better for that caliber and the .35 Rem or .357 Max fill the larger bullets as well or better. With a 14" barrel I'd lean toward the .35Rem.

The purpose (to me) of using larger cases is to launch heavier bullets. Using larger cases to launch smaller bullets (in most calibers) leads to shorter barrel life, sometimes a LOT shorter life.

[garandsrus]

I have a 30 Herrett (10” Contender), 30-30 (H&R and lever action), 357 Max (H&R), and a 35 Rem (lever action).

The 30 Herrett and 30-30 are equivalent but the 30 Herrett gets to the same spot with less powder so less recoil. Case forming was not a pain and was in fact enjoyable since it was “new”. Resizing existing cases is no big deal.

The 357 Max is generally considered to be less powerful that 35 Rem, but I don’t know if you would see a difference in a 14” barrel. The big difference is that the 357 Max is legal to hunt with in many straight wall states while none of the others are.

[megasupermagnum]

The 357 Max is generally considered to be less powerful that 35 Rem, but I don’t know if you would see a difference in a 14” barrel. The big difference is that the 357 Max is legal to hunt with in many straight wall states while none of the others are.

That is a good point for a rifle, but for a handgun, I doubt there are too many restrictions as far as deer hunting. For example, 35 remington in a 14" handgun would be perfectly legal here in Minnesota for deer hunting in the southern shotgun only zone. We do not allow straight wall cartridge rifles in this zone.

[MT Gianni]

I believe the Herretts were developed for the 10" bbls. The standard 30-30 out of the 14" is a great cartridge, not as much in a 10".

[megasupermagnum]

I believe the Herretts were developed for the 10" bbls. The standard 30-30 out of the 14" is a great cartridge, not as much in a 10".

What didn't you like? It obviously has more muzzle blast than something like 357 magnum, but it was not obnoxious. I found it a very pleasant round to shoot, hardly and recoil even with max loads. I even bought it's big brother 309 JDJ, although in a 14" barrel, and it too is a nice soft shooting round even at 2500 fps. I've heard no complaints about 30-30 in the BFR 10" barrel revolvers either. I still think 30 herrett offers next to no advantage in my experience.

[garandsrus]

That is a good point for a rifle, but for a handgun, I doubt there are too many restrictions as far as deer hunting. For example, 35 remington in a 14" handgun would be perfectly legal here in Minnesota for deer hunting in the southern shotgun only zone. We do not allow straight wall cartridge rifles in this zone.

There are in Michigan. Bottle neck handgun cartridges are not allowed in the non-rifle (southern MI) portion of the state. I have no idea about the other straight wall states.

[fcvan]

Years ago, I was allowed to shoot a friend's Magnum Research in 357 Herrett. This was an interesting because you loaded it like a Howitzer, closed the breach, and cocked it with a lever on the left side forward of the trigger guard. They were quite reasonable at the time and hell-for-stout. I don't remember the exact fps, but he easily broke 2000 with a 10" barrel and 158 jacketed soft points. I haven't seen one since the 1980s and gad to look it up.

The only guy I knew who shot 357 Max had a Ruger SBH and a Marlin lever gun re-chambered for the Max cartridge. I never got to shoot either.

[megasupermagnum]

Since I was curious, I pulled out the Lyman pistol and revolver handbook 2nd edition. This book has some good old school loads in it, so be careful. Many of the max loads are higher than current max loads.

One nice thing about it, is that it has a TC contender specific section, and it has 357 magnum, 357 maximum, and 35 remington side by side with realistic velocity data measured from actual 10" and 14" contenders. There doesn't seem to be a bullet that perfectly matches all three. I see two good comparisons. At 158 grain, 357 magnum lists jacketed soft point, 357 maximum lists a jacketed hollow point (looks like an XTP), and 35 remington lists the former JSP. The next closest we have is 170-180 grain. 357 magnum lists what they call a 180 gr JTC SIL that appear similar to a 180 gr XTP. 357 maximum lists both that 180 gr JTC SIL and a 170 gr FMJ. 35 remington lists that same 170 gr FMJ.

So lets get to the numbers. I'll only list the powder and velocity of the max load. Watch the barrel lengths, 357 magnum is only listed with 10", 35 remington with 14", and 357 maximum with both. I won't list the powder charge, you may message me if you want to know.

158 grain

357 magnum (10")
158 gr JSP
AA #9- 1719 fps
Bluedot- 1580 fps
2400- 1491 fps
IMR 4227- 1430 fps
Unique- 1378 fps

357 maximum (10" first, then 14")
158 gr JHP
H110- 1715 fps : 1769 fps
RX7- 1675 fps : 1765 fps
2400- 1669 fps : 1754 fps
IMR 4227- 1630 fps : 1630 fps

35 remington (14" barrel)
158 gr JSP
IMR 3031- 1956 fps
IMR 4064- 1881 fps
IMR 4198- 1757 fps
748- 1673 fps


170-180 grain

357 magnum (10")
180 gr JTC SIL
AA #9- 1489 fps
H110- 1452 fps
2400- 1412 fps
IMR 4227- 1383 fps
HS-7- 1416 fps

357 maximum (10" first, then 14")
180 gr JTC SIL
H110- 1495 fps : 1560 fps
2400-1449 fps : 1501 fps
RX7-1424 fps : 1503 fps
IMR 4227- 1395 fps : 1470 fps

170 gr FMJ
H110-1675 fps : 1736 fps
RX7- 1657 fps : 1674 ps
2400- 1603 fps : 1669 fps
IMR 4227- 1589 fps : 1651 fps

35 remington (14")
170 gr FMJ
IMR 3031- 1848 fps
IMR 4064- 1775 fps
748- 1636 fps
IMR 4198- 1603 fps


It is also worth noting that I did not like H110 in 357 maximum, even though I love it in 357 magnum. In the max, I found erratic velocites, and less than stellar accuracy. The first thing I notice between 357 magnum and 357 maximum, is that at 158 grain in a 10" barrel, there is little difference. I don't know why they do not list H110 in 357 magnum, which in reality is right up there with AA #9. At 180 grain, there is a slight, but not a huge difference. This mirrors my own findings. 357 maximum is certainly more, but it is not 44 magnum more. Then we go up to 35 remington, and again not a huge difference, but there is some. A better way to look at it might be that 357 maximum is 100-150 fps faster than 357 magnum, and 35 remington is 100-150 fps faster than 357 maximum.

[NSB]

Follow David White and Mike Bellm for some .357max load data. Also, MGM bbl's list loads. I chrono'd 158 Hornady bullets from my Encore/MGM and with 1680 powder I was getting just over 2400fps. Some are loading and getting close to 2600fps. Problem is, the XTP comes apart at those velocities. Using the Hornady Sil 160g the bullets will hold together. No pressure signs with this load. There is a real problem getting safe effective loads with the Max due to it being developed for revolvers and discontinued by Ruger before it developed a following in Contenders, Encores, Low Walls, etc. Used in any of these guns it can be loaded to safe pressures and easily exceed the Herrett or the .35 Rem.

[garandsrus]

In an Encore, why would 357 Max exceed 35 Herrett? The Herrett case has more capacity. You are exceeding SAAMI specs for the 357 Max and could do it with the 35 Herrett also. I am not willing to go there, by the way.

Case length:
35 Herrett - 1.750”
357 Max - 1.605”

[megasupermagnum]

Follow David White and Mike Bellm for some .357max load data. Also, MGM bbl's list loads. I chrono'd 158 Hornady bullets from my Encore/MGM and with 1680 powder I was getting just over 2400fps. Some are loading and getting close to 2600fps. Problem is, the XTP comes apart at those velocities. Using the Hornady Sil 160g the bullets will hold together. No pressure signs with this load. There is a real problem getting safe effective loads with the Max due to it being developed for revolvers and discontinued by Ruger before it developed a following in Contenders, Encores, Low Walls, etc. Used in any of these guns it can be loaded to safe pressures and easily exceed the Herrett or the .35 Rem.

I'm assuming that is from a long rifle barrel. You won't get those numbers from a 14". In a rifle, 357 magnum gets up around 2000-2100 fps. Buffalo bore's own 158 grain load is shown at 2150 fps. So at 2400 fps you have a good boost, and likely already hot. At 2600 fps you are certainly WAY over the SAMMI pressure limit. I'm not against going over the limit at all, but it isn't fair to compare a hot rod 357 maximum to a watered down 35 remington. The 35 remington has way more case capacity, and at equal pressure levels will always out run the maximum.

After looking it up, no 357 maximum will not out perform 35 herrett either, which appears to essentially be a hot loaded 35 Remington with a rim.

[NSB]

And it's WAY easier sizing the brass and reloading.

[megasupermagnum]

Put both cartridges in 23" RIFLE barrels, and the 357 Herrett will NEVER catch up with the 357 Maximum, regardless of bullet weight tested!

The only way to boost 357 Herrett velocities safely, is to use 375 Winchester brass, which has a much higher working pressure range than what 30-30 Winchester brass does. We, meaning myself, Steve Herrett and Bob Milek had done considerable work with both the 30 Herrett and 357 Herrett using 375 Winchester brass in T/C's 15" barrels from their custom shop Fox Ridge Outfitters. The much thicker 375 Winchester brass was a lot harder to form, fire-form and work with, but the gains possible with the increased velocity definitely made it worthwhile!

And what pressures were you loading to?

At 40,000 psi, the SAMMI spec for 357 maximum, the data I have shows 1500-1550 fps with a 180 grain in a 14" contender. I also have Hornady data, which is generally weaker than other sournces, that show a 357 Herrett can get 1900+ fps from a 12" contender.

There is no logical reason the maximum will ever surpass 357 Herrett or 35 remington unless you are in no mans land. The longer the barrel, the more disadvantaged the maximum will be to the other two.

[M-Tecs]

Speaking from the cartridge designers point of view, Elgin Gates, I have 2 of his personal reamers, as well as his personal load data, and the transducers on my test barrels show exactly what Mr. Gates loads were doing in terms of both pressure and velocity, and "my loads" are a direct copy of his.



No dog in this fight just curious. The SAAMI max for 30/30 is 42,000 PSI so 357 Herrett brass should take that. The SAAMI max for the 357 Maximum is 40,000 PSI. What pressures are you actually running to get that type of performance?

[M-Tecs]

The pressures that I run in "my" guns and test barrel are of no consequence, because as we all know, ALL guns and ALL chambers are different and ALL guns handle loads differently.

All of my 357 Maximum barrels have a 1-17" twist rate and all barrels have 3- groove polygonal rifling. Twist rate, number of grooves, freebore, and bore/groove diameters all play a role in both velocities and pressures of each individual cartridge.

SAAMI spec says 40,000 psi for the 357 Maximum, so no one should be exceeding that limit!

What I do with my guns is on me and me alone!

Than the same can be said for the 357 Herrett and the 35 Rem. If you do they both will surpass the 357 Maximum performance. Same for comparing each where 99.999% of the the shooters/reloaders will run them at and that is with the SAAMI specs.


Put both cartridges in 23" RIFLE barrels, and the 357 Herrett will NEVER catch up with the 357 Maximum, regardless of bullet weight tested!



Based on your data I was thinking about chambering a rifle barrel for the 357 Maximum but since I don't have the secret decoder ring to get the super secret load data not so much.

[M-Tecs]

Built my first wildcat in 1974. Built many for myself and others since and I have played the over pressure game a lot for long range competition before some of the newer component were available. Mostly with the then new 80 grain Sierra 80 bullet in the V-8 5.56 load. Brass only lasted for one firing but for service rifle comp that was the only legal AR cartridge and brass and rifles were issued.

In all those years never made the claim that a smaller highly over pressured cartridge could never be caught by a larger volume case simply because it's not true all thing being equal.

[megasupermagnum]

No decoder ring necessary!

You just have to know your way around the loading bench, know your gun and know how to read pressure signs.

Right, and both 35 Remington and 357 Herrett have significantly more case capacity. The difference is far larger than the difference between 357 magnum and 357 maximum. 357 maximum has 26% more capacity than 357 magnum. 35 Remington has 50% more capacity than 357 maximum.

Nothing except extreme pressures can overcome that kind of discrepancy. Since we know 444 marlin is safe in the contender, and 35 rem/357 herrett has an even smaller case head, we know those cartridges can safely run to the same 42,000 psi, and will blow 357 maximum out of the water.

[megasupermagnum]

What I do with my guns is on me and me alone!

This is a good thing, but you have to be fair when comparing cartridges. I hot load the 327 federal, I'm sure I've fired loads that could be pushing 50k-60k psi. I've got one load that actually exceeds some 357 magnum factory ammo. Does that make the 327 federal stronger? No, I simply loaded them that way, in my guns. Doing the same to 357 magnum, I can leave the 327 in the dust.

[M-Tecs]

I've never made the claim either, but I have proven it literally hundreds of times!


Your words not mine.


Put both cartridges in 23" RIFLE barrels, and the 357 Herrett will NEVER catch up with the 357 Maximum, regardless of bullet weight tested!



The V-8 loads ran around 77,000 to 78,000 PSI to keep the bullet supersonic at a 1,000 yards. Cost was single loading only on virgin LC primed brass and bolt lugs tended crack.

Again what pressures are you running to get that level of performance?

[megasupermagnum]

I never said 357 maximum couldn't hunt. All I said is that it is not a world different from 357 magnum. In a rifle, the maximum makes sense, especially for areas that only allow straight wall cartridges. In a revolver, I was not impressed. In a 14" contender, 35 Remington or 357 herrett offer more. In a 10" contender, I could see the case made for less recoil/muzzle blast of the maximum. If all I was looking for was a 50-75 yard handgun, I'd opt for the plain jane 357 magnum myself, which is far more impressive than many give it credit for.

[M-Tecs]

I guess I thought the 357 Herrett vs. 357 Maximum was a fair comparison test, but I guess it really isn't, so that's my mistake!

I have never pushed the 357 Maximum to the 60,000 psi level, but depending on how the chamber is throated, 50,000+ psi is the norm and after just checking data, one of my guns is 55,000 psi and the other is 56,000 psi and these are the 2 guns that I can easily stretch to 300 yards, as I have found the harder I push them, the more accurate they become.

That a very fair comparison all things being equal. Running one at 40% over SAAMI not so much.

[megasupermagnum]

As long as the loads I shoot are accurate, and the bullet perform to my satisfaction, as long as the pressures are SAFE IN MY GUNS, it makes no difference what the pressures are!

I know what you are saying, and I feel like you know where I'm coming from. I also notice you don't have a picture of a contender, and I have to wonder if your own loads would be at risk of stretching the frame of a contender. Being a relatively small case head, I would think you could run some decent pressures in a contender, but I do not know where that limit is.

[M-Tecs]

To you it doesn't but when you are recommending one over the other you should be forthcoming about small things like running it 40% over SAAMI to get that level of performance.

[garandsrus]

I would think the loads mentioned would stretch a Contender frame.

[rking22]

The nice thing about the max is the head size relative to bolt thrust on the Contender. The Contender is happy with 223 Remington pressures and the max has the same effective head size. That was the limiting factor to the Herrera in Contenders, bigger head yielding more thrust to spring the frame. The 357 max can run significantly more pressure than either the Herter or 35 Remington. Thing is, I like heavy bullets and have no interest in shooting 140 grain in my 35s so I am perfectly happy with 40,000 CUP spec for the 35 Rem. I have both Herrets because I found the 357 Herrett before the 35 Rem, and I enjoy the novelty. And performance is fully adequate.
Actually, rereading the op, I would thing the 357max would be better for him. Fact is, I would say 357mag would yield fully functional performance per his stated goals. A 357mag in a 10 inch Contender is a different critter than from a 4 inch revolver! Unless he just likes novelty, then the Herrett still kills deer.

[megasupermagnum]

Well after doing some math on bolt thrust, it looks like 357 maximum should be ok in the contender to a whopping 65,000 psi. The 35 Remington on the other hand provides nearly the same calculated bolt thrust at 45,000 psi. So I suppose a case could be made for the 357 maximum if you are willing to load way up there. I'd prefer to simply choose another cartridge at that point. Something like 309 JDJ if I wanted the range, or 444 marlin if I wanted a more effective hunting round.

[M-Tecs]

I know what you are saying, and I feel like you know where I'm coming from. I also notice you don't have a picture of a contender, and I have to wonder if your own loads would be at risk of stretching the frame of a contender. Being a relatively small case head, I would think you could run some decent pressures in a contender, but I do not know where that limit is.

Bolt thrust is the critical number for Contender frame stretch. It's easy to calculate. Not sure how the 357 Max inside area of the case head compares to something like the .204 Ruger which doesn't have any issues in the Contender. Higher end 375 Win loads at 52,000 CUP will stretch a Contender.

https://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bolt-lug-strength/

Bolt Thrust
Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

[megasupermagnum]

Bolt thrust is the critical number for Contender frame stretch. It's easy to calculate. Not sure how the 357 Max inside area of the case head compares to something like the .204 Ruger which doesn't have any issues in the Contender. Higher end 375 Win loads at 52,000 CUP will stretch a Contender.

https://riflebarrels.com/a-look-at-bolt-lug-strength/

Bolt Thrust
Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:

THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:

AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2

HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

All I did was assume both cases had the same thickness (which they likely do not, but close enough), and compared 444 marlin and 375 Winchester, which are considered the limit of the contender. rking22 brings up a good point. The case head for the 357 maximum is nearly identical to the 223 Remington, which is a standard contender chambering. That runs up to 55,000 psi, so I suppose we can assume a 357 maximum should be safe at that point.

[PNW_Steve]

I have not seen the Herrett before. I googled it and did a quick look. I am curious if you have considered the .350 Legend (.358) ?

[rking22]

350 “legend” is just a rimless 357 max ish with oddball head size. Was designed to fit into an AR magazine, like a lot of new rounds. I suspect the factory pressure is a bit high for a Contender but not sure. There was an issue with factory loads breaking carriers or something in ARs, too long a case or too much crimp. Don’t remember. It headspaces on the case mouth, like 9mm.

[rking22]

Assassin, I have read that about the Ackley rounds for years, has anyone actually tested and put a verifiable number to it?

[rking22]

Reason I ask, is that it just seems to invite cas stretch at the web transition leading to case head separation. Case body holds tire but the web cannot expand so it presses back with the total pressure less the elastic limit for that brass, an unknown and variable value. Seems walking a tite rope. The 375 Winchester factory are more than I would put in my Contenders.

[oldred]

FWIW, I have no input on the max vs Herrett rounds except that I have a 10" 357 Herrett Contender barrel that I bought in 1976 and I love the darn thing! It was the first barrel I bought for my Contender that came with a 44 mag/shot barrel with the external choke (I still have a few of those blue plastic 44 shot cartridges) but I sold the 44 and kept the Herrett. It was and still is a tack driver, case forming is simple and IMO enjoyable and besides it's different.

[rking22]

I feel the same Oldred, only mine is 14 inch. My first barrel was an octagon 44mag, almost turned me off the whole Contender thing! Those lil grips on the 76 vintage guns did not feel good with 240 gr loads!
I still have mine, serial 4457*, still hunt with it too.

[M-Tecs]

Assassin, I have read that about the Ackley rounds for years, has anyone actually tested and put a verifiable number to it?

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/experimenting-with-bolt-thrust

[M-Tecs]

Thanks for post the above. Lots of great info. The area I am unclear about is cases like the 375 Win and the 45/70 stretching Contender frames. They are almost straight yet they can be hard on Contender frames. In your test the 375 Win. exited the breech end of the barrel at over 1,500 fps. The 375 Win only has .020" taper. The 30-30 AI has .0215. https://loaddata.com/Cartridge/30-30-Ackley-Improved-PO-Ackley-Data/6481

[rking22]

Very interesting reading, thanks to both you, Assissin and M-tecs for the link. I had no idea the brass was capable of the pressures indicated! I always wondered at the 300 Savage chambering in the Contender, now I know. There my be a 30-30 AI in my future, again thanks for the excellent information, quantitive enough. As an aside, on the gun digest link, there is a note that 4895 gave a second, and larger,pressure spike just before the bullet exited the barrel. Kinda spooky as I like 4895 in the 3030.

[SSGOldfart]

My vote goes to the 357max. I own both. Just like the 173gr. 357429 Hp for my revolvers and it's holding it own in my TC contenders with 4 different barrels. I'm shooting the max in two rifles,I hate to mess with the brass for the 357 Herrett.but the each to their own. Good luck with your new barrels

[rking22]

That’s good to hear, seemed somewhat surprising considering how low the muzzle pressure is vs peak pressures. Perhaps a failing transducer, or overly dramatic editor.

[jason280]

Thanks for all the information. Right now, I am leaning towards getting rid of the Herrett, and just sticking with the Max simply for ease of reloading. I never intended on hot rodding either cartridge, just wanted a decent hunting load to play around with.

[ASSASSIN]

Another reason some guys like the 357 Maximum, especially if they have kids, is that you can shoot "4" different cartridges from the same gun -

38 special

357 magnum

360 Dan Wesson

357 Maximum

Accuracy wise, some guns with the shorter cartridges are not super accurate because of the extreme amount of bullet jump required before the bullets contact the rifling. Every once in a while though, I hear from someone that will get great accuracy from the shorter cartridges, so nothing is engraved in stone, as all guns and chambers are different.

One little 7 year old boy I know shoots 100 rounds of 38 special a week at tin cans because it has no recoil, and a very low noise level. Then dad scrubs the ring out of the chamber, and shoots his full power deer and bear hunting loads, all from the same gun.

[NSB]

Another reason some guys like the 357 Maximum, especially if they have kids, is that you can shoot "4" different cartridges from the same gun -

38 special

357 magnum

360 Dan Wesson

357 Maximum

Accuracy wise, some guns with the shorter cartridges are not super accurate because of the extreme amount of bullet jump required before the bullets contact the rifling. Every once in a while though, I hear from someone that will get great accuracy from the shorter cartridges, so nothing is engraved in stone, as all guns and chambers are different.

One little 7 year old boy I know shoots 100 rounds of 38 special a week at tin cans because it has no recoil, and a very low noise level. Then dad scrubs the ring out of the chamber, and shoots his full power deer and bear hunting loads, all from the same gun.
So far I haven't been fortunate enough to find an accurate "shorter"load in any of my max guns. They're all cut with long throats. They shot "OK" at best, but "OK" enough to satisfy me. One day a couple of years ago I had an epiphany.....just use the longer case and load it down quite a bit. It just isn't that difficult to produce reduced loads in this case and get some really accurate, reduced power loads that no one minds shooting (not that I think it has much recoil to begin with, but I'm not seven years old either). There are a number of readily available powders well suited for the purpose. It's nice not to have to keep a lot of different cases around to achieve that purpose.

[ASSASSIN]

So far I haven't been fortunate enough to find an accurate "shorter"load in any of my max guns. They're all cut with long throats. They shot "OK" at best, but "OK" enough to satisfy me. One day a couple of years ago I had an epiphany.....just use the longer case and load it down quite a bit. It just isn't that difficult to produce reduced loads in this case and get some really accurate, reduced power loads that no one minds shooting (not that I think it has much recoil to begin with, but I'm not seven years old either). There are a number of readily available powders well suited for the purpose. It's nice not to have to keep a lot of different cases around to achieve that purpose.

That's when a dose of Trail Boss comes in handy!

[jason280]

Thought I would give a quick update.

I ended up trading off the .357 Herrett barrel for the same in .35 Remington. I didn't mind the idea of forming brass, but liked the fact that factory brass was readily available for the .35. I still have a .357 Maximum barrel, but also added Super 14 7-30 Waters and 30-30 barrels as well...now I need to find a couple pistol scopes, and start trying out a few loads!

[stubshaft]

I own both and although I competed in Sillywett with the Maxi for years I like the Herrett for hunting...Just because.

[marshall623]

You will love the 7-30 , mine likes the NOE 150 Hunter .

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