577 Snider with Round Ball?

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hello everyone

I had picked up a Nepalese Snider a year or two ago and I just got around to it. I have 20 or so pieces of Mag Tech brass from the friend that I got the rifle off of.
I have some round balls and I also have an accurate mould that he gave to me. He said he always had more accuracy with the round balls though.
I do not have a set of dies and was told that I should be able to load this without dies as long as a stick with BP

I'm not a stranger to what needs to be done when reloading black powder cartridges but I have yet to do it myself.

My plan was to load these with a round ball to fire form and then use the conical once I have fire formed brass.

Any suggestions on other components or loading techniques? I was planning on loading BP, then a card wad, then a cornmeal or similar filler. I was told that dipping the loaded rounds into Udderly Smooth hand cream before firing was a good way to "lube" and keep the fowling very soft.

I would prefer to keep this as simple os possible. This is more of a novelty and not really a passion of mine (hoping the bug doesn't bite me) I might load the batch of brass a handful of times a year to make some smoke and introduce some shooter to something different from time to time

Thanks for all of the input.

[redneck1]

Just follow your plan , it'll work just fine .
You may or may not eventually have to source a set of dies .
Of course that's hoping the 24g cases have already been threw a 577
Die
Oh yea , fiochii 24gauge plastic hulls make for cheap and easy shooting for the snider, I get 3-4 firings with bp before they burn out .

[Michael J. Spangler]

Just follow your plan , it'll work just fine .
You may or may not eventually have to source a set of dies .
Of course that's hoping the 24g cases have already been threw a 577
Die
Oh yea , fiochii 24gauge plastic hulls make for cheap and easy shooting for the snider, I get 3-4 firings with bp before they burn out .

Thank you. I believe he sized them before he gave them to me.
I was wondering how long the plastic hulls lasted. I’ve only seen a friend shoot home made BP in plastic hulls for his 12 gauge. I’m guessing his powder is slow and inefficient because every time he shoots he ejects the hull and it shrivels up on the ground due to the residual heat.

If I were to go with plastic hulls I could follow the same basic recipe?

[redneck1]

Yep , as much powder as you like , a couple card wads and a ball with some udder cream works just fine .

Re-sizing the hulls is pretty easy . I forget what size drill bit I used .
But all I did was drill the hole in a hardwood block and wack em in with a mallet , and back out with a dowel.
But if the ball fits snug after firing you might not even have to go threw that step

You will have to get creative with priming , but with some thought its easy enough , I'd share what I used to do , but some would consider it less then safe

[Outpost75]

My buddy in Italy uses Fiocchi 24-ga. paper shotshell casings cut off to 2 inches, then loads 80 grains of black powder, a card and fiber wad column with a pea-sized glob of 50-50 olive oil and beeswax, then a .600" lead round ball, smearing another pea-sized dab of lube over the ball to hold it into the case mouth. No crimp necessary. Good hefty load which kills boar.

262602

[Michael J. Spangler]

Yep , as much powder as you like , a couple card wads and a ball with some udder cream works just fine .

Re-sizing the hulls is pretty easy . I forget what size drill bit I used .
But all I did was drill the hole in a hardwood block and wack em in with a mallet , and back out with a dowel.
But if the ball fits snug after firing you might not even have to go threw that step

You will have to get creative with priming , but with some thought its easy enough , I'd share what I used to do , but some would consider it less then safe

I actually picked up a Lee shell holder for a couple of dollars and use that on my RCBS bench primer. Works great!

What size wads? Do they make a 24 gauge fiber wad? Just use a thick enough one to get the right height on the conical right?


My buddy in Italy uses Fiocchi 24-ga. paper shotshell casings cut off to 2 inches, then loads 80 grains of black powder, a card and fiber wad column with a pea-sized glob of 50-50 olive oil and beeswax, then a .600" lead round ball, smearing another pea-sized dab of lube over the ball to hold it into the case mouth. No crimp necessary. Good hefty load which kills boar.

262602

What granulation of BP? FF?

[Michael J. Spangler]

What do you think would be a good load to fire form these?

60 or 70 grains of BP. A card wad some filled to support the ball and press the ball down deep into the case?

[Outpost75]

I actually picked up a Lee shell holder for a couple of dollars and use that on my RCBS bench primer. Works great!

What size wads? Do they make a 24 gauge fiber wad? Just use a thick enough one to get the right height on the conical right?



What granulation of BP? FF?

They make 24-ga. wads. My friend uses a 3.5mm over powder card and two 10mm fiber wads under the .600 diameter ball.

He tried conicals but had poor results because the wads blew into the skirt and deformed the bullet. Ball is more accurate.

Powder is 1-1/2F Swiss.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Awesome thank you

The balls I have are just a touch too big to fit into the brass. Should I try to flare them a touch to slide the balls in or just push them on tight and let her rip for the fire forming?

[Outpost75]

Flare the cases. If the rounds then chamber, they will be safe.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Thank you!

[jugulater]

you may find that after firing the round ball will fit into the case and your brass may or may not need resizing. i have 20 pieces of lathe turned brass that i have been using without sizing for years.

i use a .60 round ball loaded over 60Grn of 1F, my filler is foam window backer rod or COW, either is safe in the straight walled .577. i dip the loaded round in SPG.

You will probably find that the Snider is more accurate with Roundball loads for a number of reasons. the groove diameter is probably in the .590 to .600 range and the twist rate is probably better suited for ball.

Interesting note if you didnt already know, The Nepalese made snider barrels were hammered and welded around a mandrel like a damascus shotgun barrel. on some guns you can see the "Twist".

[fgd135]

Those Mk III 3-band Sniders, new made with steel barrels, still have a 1/78 twist rate. 2 band Sniders of all Marks have 1/48 twists, unless they're converted from 3 band rifles or possibly older P56 rifles.

[Michael J. Spangler]

All great info thank you.

I started priming brass last night. I realized the primer station on my MEC 12 gauge press has the perfect flare for flaring the cases a touch.

Then I realized all I have is FFF powder on hand.
Any chance 777 or Pyrodex RS would work ok in this application?

If not I’ll have to try to find some more BP. This area doesn’t have any sources.

[jugulater]

Absolutely do not use Pyrodex in a Iron barreled snider! that stuff is far more corrosive than real black powder and you WILL have rust if you live in a humid climate.

i used pyrodex once upon a time and here in florida it would cause surface rust in hours.

the Laminate/Twist iron barrels on Nepalese sniders are especially prone to rusting simply due to their composition.

[fgd135]

All great info thank you.

I started priming brass last night. I realized the primer station on my MEC 12 gauge press has the perfect flare for flaring the cases a touch.

Then I realized all I have is FFF powder on hand.
Any chance 777 or Pyrodex RS would work ok in this application?

If not I’ll have to try to find some more BP. This area doesn’t have any sources.

Just reduce your charge and you will be good to go with the 3fg. Start with 50 grains and work up.

[Buckshot]

................I have a friend who is a retired RCMP captain, and he'd asked me one time If I'd like to have a Snider? I said, "Why not, EVERYONE should have one"? So he sent me the shortened rifle (Carbine length) complete, except for the hammer screw. Come to find out the barrel had been "Carbine-ized" by someone less then intimately acquainted with a hacksaw, and /or also without the means to clean it up.

http://www.fototime.com/B9C212977516E0D/standard.jpg

Since the bore was also not "C0-incident" with the outside OD of the barrel I had to fiddle around with odds bits to allow the lathe to put a decent champher on the bore ID. Setting up the barrel in a steady rest was no bueno. In any event the deed was done.

http://www.fototime.com/35572699B1D8361/standard.jpg http://www.fototime.com/1A15641CDD2AC93/standard.jpg

Side view of the little begger ................................................Cl oseup of the interesting parts.

http://www.fototime.com/F50698BFD63638B/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AD10AA21E7DA774/standard.jpg

Just a photo of some loaded stuff for range testing .........................................And another batch. I was done trying to get conicals to shoot.

http://www.fototime.com/81B27EA5C8B88C9/standard.jpg

Magtech (CBC) brass. First batches had those horrific Berdan primers. I altered them to accept shotshell battery cup primers. Not too long after that they came out with the large pistol primed cases.

http://www.fototime.com/515AC68EDE6426D/standard.jpg

Fired at 50 yards off the bench. Load was Magtech 24 ga hulls LPP, Lee .600" round ball of WW alloy and a lube disc over a .080" cardwad 24.0 grs of Unique. The group size is 1.875 and a velocity of 1475 fps. Not a SINGLE BP load worked, and I do have just a teensy bit of experience with 58 cal mlers.

http://www.fototime.com/D0AD049E86D45FC/standard.jpg

This is a 5 shot group at 50 yards using NEI 500gr Target Minie's out of a Parker Hale P-58 Naval Pattern Enfield

..................Buckshot

[tmanbuckhunter]

Here's how I load 577 Snider with RB. Select charge- actually anything from about 50-75 gr FF BP does OK but about 60 gr FF seems about right and has reasonable recoil. FFF or F will also work but FF is common and does fine. Build filler/wad stack so that roundball will sit flush with mouth or slightly below while contacting filler wad (s). Set thin cotton patch on mouth and press RB into case with finger pressure until it is at mouth level or just below. I add a dab of soft lube on top of RB. .562" RB seems to work well. Adding a lubed felt wad, or grease cookie, in filler stack doesn't hurt and will help keep fouling soft. This combination is actually fairly accurate and consistent @ 50 yds. out of my 5 groove 48" twist 1872 BSA MKIII short rifle. It does a good job of fireforming new brass. I use Magtech 24 ga cut off to 2".

Last pic is of loading an Accurate # 60-445B. Much the same technique as for loading the roundball. Also, if it fits well and "starts" up near groove diameter, this particular bullet is one of the solid base conicals that might stabilize in a slow twist bore.
Do you find the patch necessary? I have some .595 round balls to give my brass an initial fire-form before I shoot the X-ring services 535gr conical. I'm debating on whether or not to patch it, or shove it in the case on top of the powder column with a filler and pour some SPG in over it?

[toot]

I don't have a problem getting .600 DIA. RB'S into the 24 gauge plastic shot gun cases but after I slide them into ti cases I can't get them to chamber be cause they swell the case mouth ever so much that they will not chamber. any one else ever had this problem? what do I do?

[yulzari]

I don't have a problem getting .600 DIA. RB'S into the 24 gauge plastic shot gun cases but after I slide them into ti cases I can't get them to chamber be cause they swell the case mouth ever so much that they will not chamber. any one else ever had this problem? what do I do?

I used to have that problem when I began with Sniders. I went on to use xringservices brass and 0,600"bullet mould but then I simply rolled the ball with a piece of steel strip on my vice flat until it formed a band where the ball was squeezed down a bit until it fitted the plastic cartridge. It is going to be swedged down to 0,580" anyway by the barrel so it has no extra effect on the ball. With all the best tricks at 50 metres the round ball has been the most accurate round, over a light charge.

[tmanbuckhunter]

I have heard of that problem elsewhere (maybe on the British militaria forum?) so it seems well known and common. Only two resolutions I know of- either use a slightly smaller diameter RB or a case with a thinner wall. The least expensive brass case alternative I think is the shortened Magtech 24 ga brass shot shell case. You can find them for about a buck apiece from various outlets at full length and not sized. Or for a little more $, already trimmed and sized from Buffalo Arms.

An off chance possibility would be to apply a small amount of lube to the outside of an already loaded round and run it up into a Snider sizing die a little at a time to see if it could be "massaged" enough to chamber.

Martyn at X-Ring services has fair prices on formed 577 Snider brass and it is made to order.

[Michael J. Spangler]

So I loaded my first rounds tonight. I love the simplicity of loading these old cartridges. Seems everyone has a variation and they all work.

Primed cases
Dropped 50 grains of FFF
Seated a salvaged 20 gauge card
Dropped a 45/70 case full of cream of wheat
Used my drill press with a spacer to seat the round ball firmly into the COW

I only loaded a few as it’s time to settle down for the night but I can’t wait to load the rest and shoot this old beast next weekend.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Oh ya! That'll work. Guaranteed it'll blow smoke and make noise. The only downside I've found with filler like COW or cornmeal or similar is some doesn't get blown out the barrel. No issue if a few granules are left in bore, it's the ones in the chamber that can leave little cosmetic dents in the case during subsequent shot. :)

Interested in range report. Consistent sight picture is alway difficult with these old guns. Sometimes a fine bead in the center of a relatively small bull and sometimes a fine bead right at the 6 O'clock edge line on a larger bull give the best sight picture. Depends on my eyes that day and/or the sun angle I guess.


I’ll be updating everyone for sure.

After playing with all kind of loads and dies and bullets in so many cartridges and trying to get things just right it felt good to toss some of this ammo together.

[armstrong]

picked up a Snider years ago in a trade...never did anything with it...looks like I better dig it out and try some of these recipes...

[Steppenwolf]

I have found the roundball load the easiest and best to fireform new brass. And surprisingly the roundball load can be very accurate in a Snider. However, there are two very different Sniders out there. The MKI/MK IIs are conversions of the 577 Enfield muskets and the MKIII is a purpose built Snider that while still 577 caliber actually has a 48" faster twist 5 groove bore. I have a MKIII short rifle with the 48" twist so whatever I load or report is specific to the MKIIIs. The original conversions being of Enfield musket origin- will have slower twists and older technology barrels of iron and could even be laminated as with some of those of eastern origin. The MKIIIs will be of more modern steel and will be so marked.

This morning I fireformed a few pieces of 24 ga Magtech brass using a roundball load. The Magtech brass shotshell is designed to accept a large pistol primer. A large rifle primer will work but it stands a skosh proud so is not ideal. This morning's load was about 65 gr of ff BP, 1/8" felt wad, 1/2" foam spacer, 1/16" lubed felt wad, thin patch and .562 RB. Once the filler stack was loaded, laid a thin cloth patch over the mouth and pressed the roundball down into the case until snug against the top wad... the top of the ball ended up just below mouth rim level. Put a small dab of lube on top. Shot 10 rounds at 50 yards and the group was a nice circular cluster of about 1 1/2". Overall that is about the average of the best groups I and this rifle have been able to shoot at 50.

Here's a pic of the various bullets I've tried in the Snider.
L-R... RCBS N-S hollow base Minie, Accurate 445 B flat base Snider, Lyman 20 ga hollow base slug, Lee hollow base Minie, .562 RB, Lee solid base REAL.
The target is one of the better 50 yd groups shot with the RCBS N-S Minie

Is that the .605 dia. Lyman 20ga hollow base slug?

Thanks
Kevin