A Couple of Hybrids

[copperlake]

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Upgrading some actions: 16 Oviedo and unknown Carcano. Both fun projects; one rather easy the other a little more involved. If anyone is interested in specifics I'll be glad to provide.

RE the Carcano, what best in-line magazine to use for 308-358? Or anything else save the 30 Russian. I'd love 458 SOCOM as I have a 45 cal barrel. It seems a 93 mauser guard is the best option to provide enough space to try and fit a mag into with obvious modifications. A 98 guard has poor trigger geometry accommodation.

[copperlake]

The carcano wins the attention. I have more time in finding a mag as I have in all the physical work done so far. Of course, that ratio will change. Colt/Sauer mag.:

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'93 mauser guard modifications:

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Fit to butchered stock:

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I was determined to make an over-center scope mount. Found a steel picatinny for cheap made for Rem. 700 which is almost the same ring diameter as a carcano, a little milling and welding and more milling and drilling:

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I think Mr. Caracano thought the army was populated by children and midgets. I'm set on doing several of these so I need an actual human-sized stock to either make my own glass and/or resin stocks or perhaps have someone duplicate my pattern. Added hardwood aft for to screw a pad onto and some silhouettes out of 1/8" door skin to Bondo to:

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Make it so the Bondo additions don't peel off and a batter for the profile at the butt out of a yogurt lid:

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Later on:

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[Bloodman14]

Dude, I think you need a hobby!! (Oh, wait...);-)

[Gewehr-Guy]

Are those all small ring Mauser actions standing in your rack ?

[copperlake]

Are those all small ring Mauser actions standing in your rack ?

Mostly, along with two LR and two SR Mexicans and a couple that are stock.

[444ttd]

:holysheep...drool......drool.......thats a alot of 93's, you have there!!!! i mean, the 93's aren't safe and you had better get rid of them. i can help you. all you have to do is send the 93's to my addre...i mean....the address provided. you will be safe in the knowledge that the 93's are buil...i mean...melted down into paperclips.

very nice rifles!!!!! i have two 93 oviedo mausers(next project), a chilean mauser action, two springfield armory actions and a 98 mauser (i am finishing the stock with lin-speed oil). i'm glad to see at least somebody knows that the 93 spanish mauser actions are being built.

[Texas by God]

This is my kind of thread. Are Colt Sauer mags common and affordable? Neat solution, I'm excited to see more.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[copperlake]

Mostly '95's

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Lot's of Rem 700 barrels, a 770, a Shaw, A&B's and some reworked originals.

There are other things that needs be done to fit the Sauer mag (yes, hard to come by and NEVER cheap but I've not found a single stack that looks like it would work better or at all) and I've yet to come up with the latch system. I will post some pics of what I did. This whole thing is more-or-less a proof of concept thing and there are many things I'll do differently next time. I think the Sauer mags could be modified for .338 Fed or .358 Win. Been forever looking for either barrel on the cheap.

These have all been test fired but not taken to the range. Some of the barrels will need to be reclocked as I didn't hit the Rem iron sight screw holes but I'm thinking I'd better find out if they're worth a hoot before I get too carried away!

[444ttd]

i got........98 mauser(i'm finishing the stock), 95 chilean and two springfield (krag) actions. i think i have one of two 93 spanish mausers somewhere in my files.

[444ttd]

daaaaaaa......found it

[Texas by God]

Probably un findable but one never knows- what about JapTalian bottom metal from the Carcano/Arisaka hybrid rifle made for Japan in Italy? No telling ,but someone with both type Carcano rifles could look.....

[copperlake]

Probably un findable but one never knows- what about JapTalian bottom metal from the Carcano/Arisaka hybrid rifle made for Japan in Italy? No telling ,but someone with both type Carcano rifles could look.....

Texas, as it happens I have five Type I Carcanos, none collectable. Now you bring up a whole nother story that I've been pondering for some time! Much rarer but sooo much more desirable: flat bolt face with a larger diameter (any standard cartridge will work without modification, no strange annular groove), a mauser type staggered feed magazine and an ejector straight down the bolt which, seems to me, makes a smoother action 'feel' that is subjective, of course. Also, to my purpose, the bolt handle is further forward which makes the '98 conversion easier welding set-up wise. They were made in 1938-39 thus more desirable, metallurgically. My efforts to make other cartridges feed reliably have been a failure. The 6.5x50 jap is semi-rimmed and the mag box is blown out aft because. The follower is shaped uniquely to accommodate, too. However, I looks like a guy could make a Ruger American mag work. All of this is, and can only be, after I get this right - or nail it on the wall of STUPID (but fun).

[copperlake]

i got........98 mauser(i'm finishing the stock), 95 chilean and two springfield (krag) actions. i think i have one of two 93 spanish mausers somewhere in my files.

444, What are those actions in the bottom pic?

[copperlake]

Oh, BTW here is the thread I started over at the competitor that backfills some info but ya know, this place is more comfortable even though I had to buy more bandwidth to post pics. There were some over there that weren't happy.

https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1151791-Carmoucano

[444ttd]

444, What are those actions in the bottom pic?

the first one is my 98 mauser with a bishop stock, it will be a richards gunstock that i am lin-speed oiling it.
http://rifle-stocks.com/ black walnut wolverine

the second is my 95 chilean action and the third is my 1898 springfield armory actions( i have to build bolts and all the other stuff).

[copperlake]

A very useful tool for this kind of Bondo work is a little spokeshave. There is a period when the chemical reaction of hardening is progressing that works to one's advantage in that the polyester carves beautifully thus eliminating much sanding, which is unpleasant. Depending on how much catalyst is used, this period is only measured in minutes.

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After several applications, I have a reasonable shape that I'm going to stop here at. Unless one glassed over the shape with fine cloth or chopped strand matt, this would not be an acceptable method to make a hunting rifle stock as bondo has too little strength though it would be fine on a bench.

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I'm stopping here with the stock because the forend needs lengthened and am waiting for the barrel to show up. I want to test fire it before getting too, too into. In terms of things I could continue with, I'm debating the best way to approach a firing pin. I started by reprofiling a '93 pin to duplicate the carcano but I'm also contemplating using the carcano. The carcano 'stops' against the bolt head and the mauser against the bolt shroud - I think? If anyone definitively knows that detail I'd be obliged. Stock '93 pin is at bottom of pic.

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[waksupi]

I altered a lot of patterns to use on a duplicating machine. After awhile, the bondo will crack and fall off, mostly due to the shrinking and swelling of the wood as the seasons change.

[copperlake]

I altered a lot of patterns to use on a duplicating machine. After awhile, the bondo will crack and fall off, mostly due to the shrinking and swelling of the wood as the seasons change.

waksupi, thanks so much for that information! I did a lot of research about that duplication process and I learned that a lot of people were not happy with the results with rather violent reactions to some vendors that claimed that ability. My current thinking (I've wanted to do this for some time) is to either make a mold using what I can make out of this to either cast urethane or epoxy resin or lay up glass with epoxy or polyester resins. I've talked a lot with the folks at Smooth-on about it and they told me they have people that have done it successfully using their products. In any case, the plan is to completely seal what I have with a penetrating epoxy like GetRot and then System III epoxy to get a glass-like finish to take a mold off of it. I have quite a bit of mold making experience using various casting plasters, RTV silicone's and urethane's from my art days.

What I haven't been able to find is a lot of information from people that have done DIY. And, with few exceptions, what I have found didn't float my boat.

[copperlake]

So while waiting for the barrel I'll work as I can on other things, the stock receding in importance as it will shoot. I've been avoiding this but now have started lengthening the firing pin. Avoiding it because I didn't know how to go about it. I stuck a drill the right size through a bit of plasticine to get a length of what was extant when all was assembled, need .410" + pin protrusion. Turns out, a 21/64" drill was almost the exact diameter of the stock '93 pin. After annealing the drill bit, I milled a flat to it and I had this jig already for to weld it up. I'm going at it one step at a time: the bit to one part, cut and finish mill to length than add the last part. Add some length, as I'd rather remove the pin tip than guess what. As one can see, it's set up for a full-pen weld.

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[copperlake]

After a lot of head scratching and fits and starts it came together, sort of. It functions as it should but will need further tuning to make it more than just acceptable. I had to reduce the length of the cocking piece sear engagement by about 80 thou and lower the sear around 50. The reductions were necessary because in the first case, too much cocking was happening on closing and in the second, it just didn't work. The sear needs to be really worked over because there is too much drag during initial cocking; will duplicate the mauser's profile. It looks like I was successful in firing pin LOA (Yay!).

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Now here's a thing that I was completely unaware of: turns out the FN bolt blank has a different clearance for either the cocking piece or the bolt shroud. My guess is the shroud in order to reduce lock time. In this pic one can see the rather large gap between the bolt body cocking notch and the cocking piece, muy malo! That causes too much rotational slop so the bolt does not 'glide' home and hits obliquely the cocking piece slot in the receiver. Another thing to figure. I have an Interarms MK X that I'll try the shroud/cocking piece assembly. Anyone that knows, please weigh in...

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And today, the barrel showed up: an aftermarket used Rem 700 .308. Man, disappointed as the concentricity between the outer and inner is horrific! Anyway, here it is in the lathe with tenon turned ready to thread and chamber. Approx. 1" removed and still lots 'o meat.

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[444ttd]

cheater!!!!!!! ya got this elketik spinnin thang!!!! that ain't fair!!!!!! youse prably got them dremel tools and drill press thingy too. why back in the day alls i had is blacksmith furnace and a hammer!!!!! i tells youse we has to make our own parts to fix parts we's already did.......


great job!!!! esp the drill bit weld!!!! i've never thought about using drill bit....you learn something new everyday.


i don't know if it helps or not, but this is what i do (or my gunsmith)
http://www.thehawkenshop.com/Instructions/gms.pdf

[copperlake]

Not exactly E. R. Shaw, but the barrel worked out well. I couldn't wait to rework the bolt face (bolt wouldn't close fully assembled on a cartridge) so I rebatted a rim and test fired it successfully. A couple of issues: firing pin is too small of diameter as a bit of primer is extruded into firing pin hole and it's obvious that one would not get many reloads out of a cartridge as the annulus in the bolt face indents the head slightly. I don't know if this happens with the carcano 6.5-7.35 as I've never fired one before. I guess it shouldn't be a surprise given that the .308 is a little more uffda than the carcano.

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Now it's cleanup time; fit it to stock, fix all the accumulated issues and then see if it can hit anything.

So this show is pretty much over - my carmoucano project - I had a blast doing it.

[copperlake]

Yeah 444, I cheat wherever I can. I even have a drill press and (gulp) headspace gauges!

The drill bit thing is interesting. While welding, it can air harden (best are just plain carbon steel which leads one to Home Depot or better, Harbor freight do not use any high-speed tool steel drill bits) so's you have to maybe anneal again to normalize. it's a cheap *** way to go.

[Flophound]

This. This is why I love this site.

[444ttd]

it sure is!!!!!!

[copperlake]

I want to thank you all for the kind comments. I've been out on a nice long successful moose hunt: no phones, tee vee or internet just peace and quiet in remote Alaska with friends and the pleasure of teaching a couple of (willing) young humans woodcraft. Being a part of youngsters education is a treasure beyond compare! As I said, this thread is pretty much over but for a range report.

I am really, really thinking hard about making a stock out of plastic for a Carcano as I plan to do several in different calibers but that will be a whole nother thing for another thread.

Thanks again and regards....

[405grain]

copperlake: When you do decide to make a fiberglass stock, please do a thread about it. I've been wanting to try one for years, but carving and inletting wood stocks is taking up enough time that I haven't got to it yet. BTW, excellent work on your gunsmithing.

[K43]

I'm standing by for the 1916 with the '98 bolt head thread!

[copperlake]

I'm standing by for the 1916 with the '98 bolt head thread!

K43, alas it will probably be awhile as I have a carcano Jones these days. Here's the thing about this particular conversion: yes, it makes the '93 have the safety feature of a large diameter bolt shroud for escaping gas protection and the bonus of cock on opening, but we still have no third lug. Now those two things are substantial, don't get me wrong but, I'm working on the idea of adding material to the receiver aft of the bolt handle and deepening the notch (necessary for scope mounting) for the bolt handle in order to make a proper 'third lug' as it is now 'modern'. There are issues with a '98 bolt that would be tricky to pull this off. This would be much easier using a Chilean '95, of which I have several, and I might go thataways. Easier in that it's already going in that direction because that was the original idea with the '95 and not much material (I think) would needs be added. BUT! I have to get over my carcano Jones first, I'm just that way about things.

Thanks for the comment - I'll let you know, if ever.

[ebb]

Copper Lake what you said about Bondo is true it is not the strongest stuff , but if you look into Bondo tht is not light weight and made for the marine industry you will find a type that is strong enough for any hunting rifle. I don't think you could bed with it but for stock work the really good marine bondo is plenty strong. If a boat yard is near by tell one of the painters what you are doing and what you are using and what its for and they will have something that is locally available.

[Baltimoreed]

Love the creative stock work. I’ve done 2 rifles like that where I’ve fit a ruger mini bbl/action into a M1a and a garand stock. I used jbweld and oak to fill in the obvious voids. Camo painted the ‘m1a’, haven’t gotten that far on the T-20 Garand repro but will do a WW2 pattern. Initially thought of using the stocks as patterns for a duplication but I like the camo look fine. Spent enough time and money on them.

[copperlake]

Just to kinda finish up here: I'll add that I got the stock formed into something reasonable, painted it black for to show contrast on further development (the forend needs a LOT more work) and took it to the range. I rebarreled 15 actions over last winter-spring along with this guy last and out of all of them, it shot by far the worst! I'm going to completely free-float the barrel and do some more trigger work and have another go down the road. It's funny, even though the barrel was of unknown pedigree, the bore looked exceptional and being set back, all the throat was removed. Four shots, the first two 1.65" @ 50yd and the second two closed a bit Some of the Rem 700 barrels that were jump-ropes shot better, much better! The only other thing is the crown was a radically tapered cone so I'll trim that off and start again.

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Overall I like the look and it handles well, so there's that....

I think next up is going to be a Type I in .243 or a M38 in .458 socom. I haven't wrung the carcano thang out of my system yet.