Lawyer Am I wrong.

[redriverhunter]

I have been putting off getting a living will and a will or living trust done. I called a lawyer today and was going to make an appointment, but I wanted to get an estimate of the cost. 300.00 an hour, I get it, if it takes 8 hours to get it done, then I am out 2400. What I got over the phone well basically 300.00 to talk to them, which would be rolled into to the total cost but no info of any kind of the total cost. I am not giving someone a blank check. I would have been ok if they would have said you can expect no more than a specified amount. RANT OVER.
rrh

[Winger Ed.]

Check out 'Legal Zoom.com".

They did a good job for us on a Living Trust.


Of the products and services they offer--- they've held up in court in all 50 states.

Don't put it off.
My Mom passed away and had a standard type will.
With a attorney the wife worked with, we were in and out of probate in a few minutes,
a couple days after the county issued her death certificate and it could be put on the docket for the court.

My Dad wouldn't get one--- it made him feel old.
When he passed away, with a friendly court and old family friend lawyer-
It cost a little more for the probate, and also added 6 months onto the process to wait
for 'unnamed heirs' to come forward before the judge would sign off and release his estate.
During that time, his bank accounts were locked down, so I got to pay the taxes & maintence
on his house & cars, and couldn't sell or otherwise dispose of them.
Just the taxes for holding his house off the market for 7 months were a 'hidden' expense of a few thousand dollars.


If it will fit for you, a living trust takes the court out of the process, and is real hard to contest.

[MUSTANG]

(+) One on LegalZoom.com. Used them to do our will 10 years ago, and then updated it again with them 2 years ago.


You might also look at the "Dave Ramsey" recommended solution. He is philosophically conservative and fiscally conservative so I listen to his broadcast off and on via radio when driving on occasion. His solution can be found at: https://www.daveramsey.com/blog/how-to-make-a-will

[knifemaker]

Redriverhunter, if that attorney is wanting 300 bucks per hour to draw up a living will in his office, he is trying to bend you over and shove a sharp stick up your backside. In my area that per hour fee is reserved for being in court fighting for your client. Use legal Zoom or call around for a more reasonable attorney in your area.

[Bohica793]

A number of lawyers have a flat fee for drawing up wills and estates ($500 from my local attorney). $300 an hour with no cap is excessive to say the least.

[Big Tom]

At my company, we have a (voluntary) legal insurance for $25/month and besides legal advice, they also provide lawyers to write a will - may be worth checking that path out. I signed up for it for the same reason - needed a will and with a 12 months commitment for the insurance, it will cost me $300 in worst case.

[Tazlaw]

I can’t comment on any state other than Arkansas but......
A living will is nothing more than a document telling doctors what to do as far as prolonging your life in the event of something like a heart attack. Without a living will the docs will try to save your life ie CPR, heart shocking,....you really only need one if you have a terminal condition and don’t want the docs to break all your ribs because you had a heart attack. It says let you die in as much comfort as possible.

A regular Will is different. It says what to do with all your stuff when you die. Prices can vary depending on how complicated. If you have $1.38 in the bank like me :) then it won’t cost much. Plenty of online self help forms are available. For instance:

Arlegalservices.org

Had a bunch of self help forms. I’m sure most states have a “legal aid” group that can help with more simple stuff.

One thing that is a pet peeve is on regular will ALL potential heirs must be named. Even if you want to give them the finger, you have to name them. Otherwise they can say “he forgot me” and possibly get the will thrown out.

Disclaimer: this comment is not to be construed as legal advice given to any particular person. Got to love lawyer talk!

Tazlaw

P.s. I hate it when lawyers think they are so high and mighty and better than you. I got pissed off and went to law school later in life. I promise you, I am no better than any other person because of it.

Hope this helps a little.

[tunnug]

I just did a living will for the wife and I and met with the lawyer twice, one to talk about what kind of will/trust would work best for us and the second meeting for the details of the will plus as many copies that we wanted.
Total cost $200.
Previously we had another lawyer who talked us into a trust and sent us previews with what we had told her, changes were requested which she ignored and kept sending back previews with wrong info, we had paid her a beginning cost of $400, total had been quoted $700 to $900, after her ignoring our requests we just stopped communicating and went with the second law firm. No way of knowing she was a flake until after a while so that was the price it cost us.

Edit to say that it was a regular will with the living will stipulation along with it.

[Tazlaw]

Ps.
Most hospitals have a living will form you can fill out for free. At least they do have them here.

[tinsnips]

I paid $600.00 for the whole nine yards. All the stuff you need to die with my business included. They keep a copy in there safe also in case you loose yours fire etc.

[Petrol & Powder]

For starters, Fees are negotiable. Attorneys don't work for free but that doesn't mean you have to settle on the first asking price.

Unless you have some really complex financial situation, a will shouldn't take that long to create. Most of the time is consultation, not the actual time needed to draw up the will.
Ask the attorney about the fee right up front. If you don't like the answer, go to another attorney. If you show up prepared for the consultation, it shouldn't take that long to lay out what you own and what your wishes are. Come prepared, have bank account numbers, deeds, locations of safe deposit boxes, names of executors, addresses, phone numbers, etc. The more work you do up front, the less work the attorney will be able to bill you for. You're the one paying for that time, use it wisely.

[dbosman]

Unless you have a complicated estate, a fixed or flat rate should be fair. If you can't do your taxes using online forms, then you probably need specific expert advice.

[Land Owner]

Painting with broad brush strokes here from personal experience in FLORIDA. YMMV.

Documents worth investigating include:
1.) Living Will
2.) Durable Power of Attorney
3.) Health Care Surrogate
4.) Last Will and Testament
5.) [Named Individual] Revocable Trust.

Documents 1.), 2.), and 3.) are pre-written forms with "fill in the blanks" for names. If you use one, an attorney's office should expect a reasonable FLAT FEE for filling in those form blanks on your behalf - as the EASY PART of your more expensive and complicated "exit strategy" documents. You can find these easy forms yourself, FREE, on-line. Download, READ them thoroughly, understand their implications, fill in your own blanks, sign, have notarized, and save. They are, relatively speaking, self explanatory.

Complications and significant attorney and Court fees arise in documents 4.) and 5.). Everyone is different. Last Wills and Trusts are thoroughly different for each and every one. You NEED a Will. You can MAKE YOUR OWN if you wish. Don't leave a HUGE HOLE in your exit strategy by not having a Will.

If you use an attorney, how much you pay for a Will depends on how complicated it is. A lot of the document is specific to your state. There are MANY twists and turns in the PROBATE Court of your state. Probate IS a blank check to the attorney handling the estate...unless you are able to find an attorney [from Heaven] willing to do it for a flat fee.

It is not unreasonable to pay $1,500 to [the sky's the limit] for a TRUST and you may not NEED a Trust. Establishing a REVOCABLE TRUST is designating, through the Court in advance of your demise, the transfer of your titled property into a "fluid" document, which you can at any time change up to, but not after, your death, that IMMEDIATELY upon your death transfers titles to the beneficiary. No dispute over transfer. STILL, a Probate Court will have to CERTIFY the Trust. Trusts ARE expensive and maybe you do and maybe you don't need a Trust.

PROBATE, the legal determination of who gets what after your demise, is made MUCH simpler, though not necessarily cheaper, through your LAST WILL and Revocable Trust (if there is one).

For example, here is a list of many of the Court filed probate documents - I just lived through - being the beneficiary of and Personal Representative for an estate and Revocable Trust. For two (2) years, it was not an easy time. In fact, it was VERY DIFFICULT following the loss (and still is), to deal with the volume of WORK that was necessary to resolve the estate and trust. An attorney WAS necessary and it COST PLENTY.

https://i.postimg.cc/t4bRW0Kg/DRL-Court-Forms.jpg

[redriverhunter]

Thank you for all the replies and advice. I have been looking at legal zoom and it looks doable thanks.

[1006]

My experience was similar to TinSnips.

Paid $500–ten years ago- for a lawyer to draw up a will. It took about 90 minutes of consulting with him and my wife and myself. Then we left, he drew it up in about a week, we signed it and took a copy home, he kept a copy, and filed a copy with the county. When one of us dies, it is already accessible to the court—so no hanky panky from any contrary people will interfere with our wishes.

The lawyer was worth the money, he knew exactly how to word our wishes. It was complicated by our kids needs. One kid was in High School, one in College, one grown with children. The attorney was able to include language that provided any kid still finishing their first College degree with money to finish before the remainder of the estate would be divided equally between them. I am down to one kid left in school, and the will has never needed updating, and will not need updating unless we move to another State, because of the way it is worded.


If you are worried about being stuck on a feeding tube or life support, you need the document notarized and on file with people you trust to carry out your wishes. My parents did this, and it helped us all a great deal. One died of a brain tumor and the other went to a memory care facility after a stroke. It was nice to know that they did not want a feeding tube, or life support of any kind before they could no longer tell us.

[Petrol & Powder]

My experience was similar to TinSnips.

Paid $500–ten years ago- for a lawyer to draw up a will. It took about 90 minutes of consulting with him and my wife and myself. Then we left, he drew it up in about a week, we signed it and took a copy home, he kept a copy, and filed a copy with the county. When one of us dies, it is already accessible to the court—so no hanky panky from any contrary people will interfere with our wishes.

The lawyer was worth the money, he knew exactly how to word our wishes. It was complicated by our kids needs. One kid was in High School, one in College, one grown with children. The attorney was able to include language that provided any kid still finishing their first College degree with money to finish before the remainder of the estate would be divided equally between them. I am down to one kid left in school, and the will has never needed updating, and will not need updating unless we move to another State, because of the way it is worded.


If you are worried about being stuck on a feeding tube or life support, you need the document notarized and on file with people you trust to carry out your wishes. My parents did this, and it helped us all a great deal. One died of a brain tumor and the other went to a memory care facility after a stroke. It was nice to know that they did not want a feeding tube, or life support of any kind before they could no longer tell us.
/\ This is right on point /\

[lightman]

When I retired I closed out my 401K plan and moved it to a trusted friend that is a financial advisor. I met with him, my accountant and an Attorney that specializes in estate planning. We set up a living will, a regular will, I got a broad coverage liability insurance policy and set up an estate. I think it was around $1500.

[bedbugbilly]

No offense to the lawyers on here . . . but . . . here's my 2 cents worth.

About fifteen years ago, my wife and I went to the lawyer we use (a good guy and I like him) and we set up our Trust, had our Living Wills, Wills, medical POA, etc. done - it cost around $2,000.00 at that time. O.K. . . well it's done and we have taken care of it. Now I realize things change and we really need to re-do our Wills as we have no children, some of the beneficiaries are now deceased, etc. The last time I met with the same lawyer a couple of years ago on some real-estate business, he brought up that "some of the laws have changed" and we really should "re-do" our Trust, etc. This really hit me the "wrong way" as the Trust should be fine as it is written. Funny thing - you pay all that money to have the work done and then down the road "the laws get changed" - who write/change the laws? - the state legislature of whom many are lawyers.

Yep . . . it is important to get your estate planning done and especially to get your Living Wills, medical POA, etc. done as you "never know". The last thing a person wants is to be unable to make medical decisions for themselves and not have it in writing as to what measures they want taken or who they want to make their decisions for them.

What grinds me is that while an attorney is certainly entitled to be paid for their time and knowledge, so many of the documents are now on computer and the secretary puts in the appropriate information into the template, the attorney reviews it, makes changes, etc. and it is pointed. Not like the old days when the attorney wrote it up, the secretary had to type multiple copies, etc. The same attorney we used, if I call him about anything, the clock starts from the time he picks up the phone with a minimum billing for 15 minutes. BUT, I can't begin to add up the times that he has asked me questions about something that fell under my "expertise" but never offered to pay me for my time in answering and he would have a stroke if I presented him with a statement for my time in answering "his" questions.

I can remember when my folks set up their Trusts, Wills, etc. I was with them and I remember their attorney telling them that the $2,000 or so they paid to set everything up in Trust form would save them at least $10,000 in fees if their estate was not set up in Trusts and had to be probated. Hmmmm . . . after they were gone and my wife and I were the Trustees, by the time we got their estate "settled" (and everything was in Trusts), I had to write a check to the same attorney for close to $11,000.00 for legal advice and assistance in getting everything taken care of and the Trusts closed. I kept my mouth shut though and didn't remind him of what he had told my folks at the time they set up their Trusts about how much they would be saving by not having to go through probate.

While nobody likes dealing with with these things, it's a "necessary evil" and everyone should get it taken care of even if they are "younger" and "feel invincible" - especially those young ones who are weave earners, are married, have kids or have assets. An attorney ought to be able to tell you a price for doing the work - if they want to leave it "open ended" - then move on and find another attorney who you are comfortable with and who will give you a price for setting up what you need for your situation.

[LUBEDUDE]

I forgot the proper term, but I found a local attorney that just deals with the aged and all of the planning and legal documents for long term care/living will, death, and inheritance.

He even took care of filling for a Ladybird Deed on my house. It may be called something else in other states. It’s a must have to protect your children’s inheritance. With this deed, if you go into a nursing home they cannot take away your house for payment. The nursing home is forced to accept Medicare. This way your heirs retain ownership of your home.

Everything tax, title, and license was about $400. They included two hard copies and a thumb drive.

[Tazlaw]

I forgot the proper term, but I found a local attorney that just deals with the aged and all of the planning and legal documents for long term care/living will, death, and inheritance.

He even took care of filling for a Ladybird Deed on my house. It may be called something else in other states. It’s a must have to protect your children’s inheritance. With this deed, if you go into a nursing home they cannot take away your house for payment. The nursing home is forced to accept Medicare. This way your heirs retain ownership of your home.

Everything tax, title, and license was about $400. They included two hard copies and a thumb drive.

In Arkansas they call it Elder law.

[Huskerguy]

This is interesting. We went through a lot of this when my wife's parents with a farm passed away. They had a trust and we met with an "Elder Care" attorney after her father passed. Provided excellent information when the trust was rewritten.

My wife and I have two grown children and some investments and a couple rental properties. Not a lot, but we were looking to make life easier on both our kids when the time comes.

We have several friends who are attorneys, one goes to our church so we asked him questions about the difference between wills and trusts. What it boiled down to for us is we did not want our kids to get stuck with hiring crooked attorneys (my friends words). With a will, the estate has to hire an attorney to settle it and you have not way of knowing what they will charge. It also takes time to go through probate and with our rental property it is much harder for anyone to do business.

So after lots of thought we went with a trust. The advantages of the trust are everything is listed in, the properties and money go to exactly who we want, no probate, and the businesses can be continued without a hitch if we pass. The kids can rent, kick out, sell or whatever and they don't need to wait or have court permission.

The key to a trust is you have to "fund it" meaning all investments and assets be put in the trust name. Our attorney will help with all of that, vehicles, deeds, accounts, etc. If something happens and you inherit or buy an asset that is not listed it is covered in a "pour over will" that takes care of this things.

A trust would not go to probate but anything outside of the trust, i.e. not listed would go through probate without the pour over. At our age we don't anticipate inheriting anything.

For us the trust was a better choice. It does include all POA's, Living wills (pull the plug document), and pour over will. We just have to get all checking, savings, IRA, vehicles, houses, Etc put into the trust. My attorney friend said too many attorneys charge a % of the estate to settle a will. So it is pay up front for a trust or later (unknown) for a will.

This is my experience only and is presented to my best understanding and for my situation.

[Winger Ed.]

The key to a trust is you have to "fund it" meaning all investments and assets be put in the trust name.

A Living Trust was best for us.
The wife is a 30 year legal secretary, and even working at a 900 pound gorilla law firm,
Legal Zoom was a fraction the price they could have done it .
But we did need to do a few things for our self to fund it.
A lawyer could have done it too, but they can't work for free --- at least not for very long.

For about $300 or so dollars, we got a consultation with a Texas Bar attorney,
who put together a stack of documents, DNR letters, physicians directives, etc.
And, a list of 'you also need to do this' things pertaining to funding it, getting certain things notarized,
and changing titles, financial accounts & deeds over into the trust.

We could have done that ourselves for 'free' too, but the peace of mind knowing it was all done right-
the price seemed fair.

[jimlj]

I just set up a family trust, living will, last will and POA's. All signed and recorded last week in fact. I paid $2500. My wifes folks did the same thing about 9 years ago for $2000. I'm sure I could have had it done for less, but I'm more confident everything is done correctly than if I'd tried to piece it together myself. I like the way the attorney worded the living will better than anything generic the hospital and my doctor had. I sleep better at night knowing any assets I leave behind will be dispersed as I wish, and my kids won't have to deal with probate.

[.429&H110]

All 1+ excellent, much room for thought!

One reply said his lawyer had his will.
Fine if the layer is the executor.
We hope this lawyer is a good guy. Talk about a blank check!
Or it might be in a bank vault where it cannot be opened.
(Now there is a catch-22, bank needs the will to open the box with the will in it.)
My dad taught me, the executor named in the will holds the will.
Who do you trust?

My dad's estate also showed me:
When we die, we must not own property in two different states.
Probate times two, oh, my...

[RogerDat]

Some interesting things I learned going through this process.

In Michigan one can add a list of items to be given to specific people to be included with the will but it MUST be a hand written list.

Almost any hospital has the living will - which directs doctors or family of under what conditions you want what life saving procedures performed. Form is free. They used to give it away routinely when one checked in and was older or getting surgery. Sometimes called an advanced care directive.

Hospital also has forms for laying out people who you want to have medical power of attorney if you become incapacitated. They get to decide if the plug gets pulled.

One can put a house in a trust for ones heirs BUT one then can't borrow against the house or refinance. You don't personally own the house so can't use it as collateral, trust can't sign mortgage agreement.

One can draw up a quit claim deed that assigns the home title to your heirs. Signed and witnessed, then held in ones safe or safe deposit box it allows your estate to simply file the quit claim at the county clerks office and the house avoids probate.

It is easy in a hospital situation to make decisions that run contrary to persons directives if one doesn't pay attention. It really helps if most of the family takes the time to know what it is you want for care when incapacitated or at end of life. Even then it can be a struggle. For example Doctors pushed feeding tube for my dad after he broke a hip and they found some other issues. The one doctor said tube was needed to get his strength up so that the other issues could be dealt with by surgery, and would help with recovery from having hip fixed. Doctor in pre-op doing the feeding tube was incredulous at that as the reason for the feeding tube. There was no way he would perform surgery to fix any of his other issues on a patient of my dads age with his cardiac issues with or without a feeding tube. Dad's instructions limited feeding tube to a stop gap to aid in recovery or in order to buy time for a treatment to work. This implant was mostly to allow maintaining his nutrition long term. Problem was that last minute bit of information was given to family that wasn't aware of those limitations so they went ahead.

I was aware but was outvoted because a number of the family members had not read what mom and dad had for directives or asked what they meant. They decided to go with the recommendation of the doctor which seems reasonable, if it wasn't different that what he had said he wanted. Later on reviewing the documents it was agreed that this was against his stated wishes but by then decision was done. Make sure family knows what you plan and want. Write it down and share it with them in advance.

It is a great comfort to know that you have provided for disposal of casting and reloading supplies and equipment and not dumped that on a spouse who is likely to end up getting taken advantage of. Also if one has a valuable firearm collection or specific firearms that are meaningful such as grandpa's hunting rifle etc. Making the arrangements to dispose of those will avoid heirs having to figure out who gets the items or how to count an item against an heirs share of the firearms being sold. Same for any other specialized gear or collections. An estate sale buyer may pay dimes on the dollar, an honest friend may sell them on consignment and return the proceeds to your family. You handle it, then it will get done right. Or at least have better odds of being done well.

I made arrangements so my wife won't have to, and dispose of specific items according to my wishes or requests from family or friends. The firearm a friend says if you ever sell that give me first rights to meet the price. If I want that item going to that friend it has to be specified.

Some family or friends will find it very difficult to deal with any pre planning. Or will say "the kids can work it out" They only have to deal with all that if we don't make a point of encouraging them to speak up now or be part of or have knowledge of what you intend. Not always easy or pleasant to deal with but I think it does make things much easier.

You can set up a signature card at the bank that makes the account available to another person in the event of your death. Avoids probate and provides funds for paying taxes etc. while rest of estate is getting settled.

Pick your executor with care! Friend was co-executor with his half sister and she paid her friend thousands out of the estate for yard work and clean up prep done to get the house ready to sell. The work could have been hired commercially for a few hundred at most. Mowed lawn, trimmed front bushes, painted front porch rails and front door. Cleaning the inside up after it was emptied. Seem to recall that bill came to around $4,000. My friend about had kittens when he got the notification of the bill amount.

In blended family with kids from prior marriage on both sides picking one executor from each set of family that will get along and be able to prevent hard feelings. Or consider going outside the kids to a relative or friend or lawyer you trust.

Plan your own funeral! Way to easy for family during an emotional time to feel like they need to blow a lot of money. Becomes an even bigger issue if your heirs have vastly different economic circumstances. Very easy for one heir that doesn't care about the financial inheritance to spend a lot of money on a great "spare no expense" funeral where another heir can really use the money to help improve their lives will view that money as wasted, and nothing like the small tasteful funeral you would have wanted. You plan it and even pay for it up front means they can just grieve and get through it while avoiding any conflict between heirs over what each feels is "appropriate" expense.

Dad did moms funeral, it was small graveside with family and some close friends. We went to someplace like Olive Garden aftewards for food. Sister did dads and it had a rented church they never attended and catered luncheon. The food was great. Not sure who all those people are, friends of sister or her kids. Mom and dads church was free and right down the road but this one was bigger and nicer so... some of us sort of thought it was wasteful, not at all like our parents would do having grown up during the depression and come of age during WW2. You plan it. You pay for it. Then there are no questions about what you want.

[JoeJames]

I can’t comment on any state other than Arkansas but......
A living will is nothing more than a document telling doctors what to do as far as prolonging your life in the event of something like a heart attack. Without a living will the docs will try to save your life ie CPR, heart shocking,....you really only need one if you have a terminal condition and don’t want the docs to break all your ribs because you had a heart attack. It says let you die in as much comfort as possible.

A regular Will is different. It says what to do with all your stuff when you die. Prices can vary depending on how complicated. If you have $1.38 in the bank like me :) then it won’t cost much. Plenty of online self help forms are available. For instance:

Arlegalservices.org

Had a bunch of self help forms. I’m sure most states have a “legal aid” group that can help with more simple stuff.

One thing that is a pet peeve is on regular will ALL potential heirs must be named. Even if you want to give them the finger, you have to name them. Otherwise they can say “he forgot me” and possibly get the will thrown out.

Disclaimer: this comment is not to be construed as legal advice given to any particular person. Got to love lawyer talk!

Tazlaw

P.s. I hate it when lawyers think they are so high and mighty and better than you. I got pissed off and went to law school later in life. I promise you, I am no better than any other person because of it.

Hope this helps a little.

All you stated was pretty accurate. The living will: hospitals will paper you over with their "Living Will" forms - mostly deal with DNR issues. I'd highly recommend getting a lawyer to draw up a Will; home made Wills scare the fire out of me.

One other thing you might consider when you talk to a lawyer is a "Beneficiary Deed". Some states do not have them, including Tennessee, last time I checked. But here in Arkansas a Beneficiary Deed when recorded conveys your Real Property (All real property described in the deed that is) to a beneficiary at the time of your death, but it can be revoked at any time up until death. After death it passes to the beneficiary automatically without probate. It does not work for all situations, but in most it is handy as a pocket on a shirt.

And, since lawyers are trained to copy each other, and have done so since William conquered England, I will include the above waiver: Disclaimer: this comment is not to be construed as legal advice given to any particular person.

[downzero]

I am a lawyer, and I would not write my own will. I would consult with someone who knows what he or she is doing. That doesn't mean you have to go with the first person you call. But clearly if you care about what happens to your property after you die, you must have enough of it that you have wishes that you're willing to make sure are carried out. Getting some form off of some website may not make that happen. A properly executed will or trust, will (no pun intended). There's a reason they make us go through so much to join the bar, way more than I could type in this box. There is probably no area of the law more complicated than property, especially when you combine property and death.

[Char-Gar]

In Texas a "living will" is done by two documents. 1. A Health Power Power of Attorney and 2. Directive to Physicians. Both of these have been written by the Texas Legislature are a google search will bring them up. They are simple fill in the blank documents with clear instructions.

[john.k]

There was no problem with my mothers will,basically she had two sons ,neither needed any money .......anyway,what upset me was she had a prepaid funeral with a big undrtaker company,all the documents etc.......but when the lawyers accounting came ,there was payment for a funeral,with the prepaid company.........I asked the lawyers a couple of times about this,and was basically told i didnt understand accounting,didnt understand estates etc.........I recieved the final accounting and the funeral payment was still there ........the lawyers changed their tack ,and it was time passed,too late etc...........so I complained to the law council.....and it was then I would have to pay $6000 to have the account reviewed ,as it had already been reviewed (by the lwyers who pocketed the extra funeral)

[remy3424]

Not all accurate information on this topic...hard to believe in a casting forum. Maybe things vary by state, but in Iowa you CAN refinance or mortgage a property that is in a revocable trust...if you are the owner/make of said trust. These mortgages to the trust are accepted on the secondary mortgage market, I assumed this was commonly known. I don't do a lot of them, but have done a few. I think trusts must be designed for folks with lots of assets (real estate) to protect...not folks who would typically have the need to refinance a property. Those folks might have problems but money is not one of them. You see a lot of farm ground in trusts today. I think here Life Estate is how you can pass real estate, where it remains in your control and use until your death, then passes as the deed states. Maybe some issues with this, I seldom see it being used....ask an attorney to straighten things out for you.

[Murphy]

The wife and I used a firm recommended by our investment broker. We also took care of our funeral arrangements, she's 73 and I turn 68 next month. I never asked what it all amounted to in the end having our affairs in order. But I will say this, it was well worth the peace of mind knowing it's taken care of. That, and the final say so over what goes where.

Attorneys. The same as any profession, there are both good and bad ones. Many people (or so I feel), think a lawyer is a lawyer, there's nothing further from the truth. Ask around, get references, check with your state bar association (if possible) for any disciplinary actions the attorney you are considering may have received. Do your homework on that one for sure. As others have suggested, it can be a fairly simple deal and not that costly. Then again, depending on your specific needs it's going to cost a bit more. I can tell you this, the peace of mind knowing it's done, what can and will happen to what you leave behind is money well spent. I've seen what happens when the funeral over and it's time to cut the pie. The best, and the worse is going to come out in those who feel they have something coming. Even if they don't.


Murphy

[oldscool]

In Ks, you should name an executor (any trusted family member or?) The executor will responsible to take care of outstanding debts, taxes, etc, and then be able to follow the wills instructions as to who gets what. If no executor is named, the assets go to probate, where the court will appoint a lawdog to distribute assets at whatever fee the appointee can finagle. Then what is left will be distributed to survivors/designees.

In otherwords, name an executor in your will, unless you want to give part of your estate to a ????????????????

[Handloader109]

A LOT is state specific. Living will? In my experience these are worthless if you have a family member who is handling your illness. If you are unable to hand this over, then no one knows of it until too late. How can anyone follow your wished for DNR if your living will is locked away in your paper vault and your child, nephew, SIL etc can't get or doesn't know of it. Lawyer has it? Who cares? No one calls the lawyer if you are still alive. Just make sure verbally that every person you know that might control your destiny when you can't is aware and will follow your wished. Just say'n. In my opinion, this is just another way a BUZZARD can make more money off of you drawing it up.
Fill out form when you enter hospital, if you can.

As far as Probate, it really depends on the situation. In MS, you can do a quick probate in about 30 or so days at 2 or 3 times the price, or 6 months and at relatively less cost.
We went that route 2 years ago when Mom died. Land, and House at different location. When going the long route, you cannot resell property for 3 years. You can deed over to other person listed in will, which I did for Mom's house to my brother. That is inside the probate process. Just can't sell property to anyone else. (supposedly anyway).

I Do need to rid myself of the property as I have home here in AR and land in MS...... I notice around here a LOT of trusts for land. Seems to be way easier to add and replace trustees than go through probate at each death and multiple owners are way easier. Generational farms.

[Wayne Smith]

Consult a lawyer - find a good one, an elder lawyer who knows your current state law. Here in Virginia, when my mother was dying, each County had different Medicaid spend down rules! A lawyer who knew his business saved Dad his house.

[Hometek]

No offense to the lawyers on here . . . but . . . here's my 2 cents worth.

About fifteen years ago, my wife and I went to the lawyer we use (a good guy and I like him) and we set up our Trust, had our Living Wills, Wills, medical POA, etc. done - it cost around $2,000.00 at that time. O.K. . . well it's done and we have taken care of it. Now I realize things change and we really need to re-do our Wills as we have no children, some of the beneficiaries are now deceased, etc. The last time I met with the same lawyer a couple of years ago on some real-estate business, he brought up that "some of the laws have changed" and we really should "re-do" our Trust, etc. This really hit me the "wrong way" as the Trust should be fine as it is written. Funny thing - you pay all that money to have the work done and then down the road "the laws get changed" - who write/change the laws? - the state legislature of whom many are lawyers.

Yep . . . it is important to get your estate planning done and especially to get your Living Wills, medical POA, etc. done as you "never know". The last thing a person wants is to be unable to make medical decisions for themselves and not have it in writing as to what measures they want taken or who they want to make their decisions for them.

What grinds me is that while an attorney is certainly entitled to be paid for their time and knowledge, so many of the documents are now on computer and the secretary puts in the appropriate information into the template, the attorney reviews it, makes changes, etc. and it is pointed. Not like the old days when the attorney wrote it up, the secretary had to type multiple copies, etc. The same attorney we used, if I call him about anything, the clock starts from the time he picks up the phone with a minimum billing for 15 minutes. BUT, I can't begin to add up the times that he has asked me questions about something that fell under my "expertise" but never offered to pay me for my time in answering and he would have a stroke if I presented him with a statement for my time in answering "his" questions.

I can remember when my folks set up their Trusts, Wills, etc. I was with them and I remember their attorney telling them that the $2,000 or so they paid to set everything up in Trust form would save them at least $10,000 in fees if their estate was not set up in Trusts and had to be probated. Hmmmm . . . after they were gone and my wife and I were the Trustees, by the time we got their estate "settled" (and everything was in Trusts), I had to write a check to the same attorney for close to $11,000.00 for legal advice and assistance in getting everything taken care of and the Trusts closed. I kept my mouth shut though and didn't remind him of what he had told my folks at the time they set up their Trusts about how much they would be saving by not having to go through probate.

While nobody likes dealing with with these things, it's a "necessary evil" and everyone should get it taken care of even if they are "younger" and "feel invincible" - especially those young ones who are weave earners, are married, have kids or have assets. An attorney ought to be able to tell you a price for doing the work - if they want to leave it "open ended" - then move on and find another attorney who you are comfortable with and who will give you a price for setting up what you need for your situation.

Sounds like you was using the Dewey, Chetum, and Howe Law Firm.

[JoeJames]

Actually you can sell real property of the estate while in Probate, but the heirs have to waive the sale, and then basically you are swapping land for money which stays in the estate account until final distribution. Course all that would require an order from the Circuit Judge approving the sale and confirming the sale. In Arkansas a probate case usually is about 6 months or so. One drawback of going the Will - Probate route is that it takes just about as much paperwork and court appearances to probate a fairly small estate of say $200,000 as it does for one ten times that size, and therefore attorney's fees can be pretty hefty.

[downzero]

Actually you can sell real property of the estate while in Probate, but the heirs have to waive the sale, and then basically you are swapping land for money which stays in the estate account until final distribution. Course all that would require an order from the Circuit Judge approving the sale and confirming the sale. In Arkansas a probate case usually is about 6 months or so. One drawback of going the Will - Probate route is that it takes just about as much paperwork and court appearances to probate a fairly small estate of say $200,000 as it does for one ten times that size, and therefore attorney's fees can be pretty hefty.

They don't have an informal probate by you?

[JoeJames]

They don't have an informal probate by you?

If the estate is below a certain amount which has changed over the years - and if the heirs agree, here you can do an administration of a small estate; if that is what you mean.

Been a spell since I have run anything through probate; have mostly handled small estates by simple estate planning with beneficiary deeds, the use of named beneficiaries on the vehicle titles, and POD's on the bank accounts. For a lot of people that takes care of it - house, vehicle, bank accounts.

[JimB..]

I can’t comment on any state other than Arkansas but......
A living will is nothing more than a document telling doctors what to do as far as prolonging your life in the event of something like a heart attack. Without a living will the docs will try to save your life ie CPR, heart shocking,....you really only need one if you have a terminal condition and don’t want the docs to break all your ribs because you had a heart attack. It says let you die in as much comfort as possible.

A regular Will is different. It says what to do with all your stuff when you die. Prices can vary depending on how complicated. If you have $1.38 in the bank like me :) then it won’t cost much. Plenty of online self help forms are available. For instance:

Arlegalservices.org

Had a bunch of self help forms. I’m sure most states have a “legal aid” group that can help with more simple stuff.

One thing that is a pet peeve is on regular will ALL potential heirs must be named. Even if you want to give them the finger, you have to name them. Otherwise they can say “he forgot me” and possibly get the will thrown out.

Disclaimer: this comment is not to be construed as legal advice given to any particular person. Got to love lawyer talk!

Tazlaw

P.s. I hate it when lawyers think they are so high and mighty and better than you. I got pissed off and went to law school later in life. I promise you, I am no better than any other person because of it.

Hope this helps a little.
Everyone is saying living will, but I think they either mean a will or more likely a living trust. It’s worth understanding the differences, or at least that there are differences, before talking about a fixed fee arrangement.

[Dave W.]

Any professional should save you money in the long run, it may cost you now, but should keep you out of trouble later. When using an attorney you are buying service, not a product. A can of coke is a product, it will be the same no matter where you purchase it. Service prices vary depending on whom is providing them. If a person needs major back surgery, a service, they probably do not want the cheapest Doctor out there. Most likely they want a specialist, that will charge more, but will do a good job. The old adage, you get what you pay for is pretty true.

[schutzen-jager]

just had wills done for wife + I - lawyers here charge a flat rate $400.00 for will, power of attorney, living will directive, + filing with surrogate - do not know what the fee for trusts is - many lawyers specialize in wills + do not charge an hourly rate -

[Char-Gar]

The Texas Legislature created these documents and they are found in the Texas Statutes. They are good as gold in Texas. They are free to download.

[Rapier]

There is not much more messed up or worse than a person with property that dies intestate, without a will, or even directions for the treatment of assets or the funeral, or themselves in a hospital, and no attempt whatever to take care of the little items, like estate taxes, for the kids.
I am a retired Bonding Agent, court and probate bonds. Have seen thousands of these train wrecks.Usually brought in after the fact to try to fix the disaster.
My advise is prior to death, you arrange for a meeting with your accountant, attorney insurance agent, and a funeral director. Get your personal house in order before you dump all of that garbage on your kids at midnight, one night.

The state or feds become 100% mercenary after deah, they want their pound of you assets. You can protect every bit of that by sevral legal processes, if and only if, you do so before hand.

Remember, Life itself is a terminal disease and you are not getting out of this life alive.

I am going to relate one true story, a help, help, what do I do story. A really Great and successful realestate attorney dies of a massive heart attack, in the hospital, itself. Tells son, a minister, do not worry, I took care of everything. In the middle of the estate is 7 miles on the ocean, on a 4 lane highway, then 10 mile north on another 4 lane highway, to a big deep river, then back on the river. state says 10s of millions of dollars worth. Within 48 hours the state sent certified demands, wanting their 35%, of the retail sale value, in a cashiers check, millions of dollars.

My advice, was to call then go sit down with the state and negotiate a settlement.
The settlement transferred 1,000 acres to the state, with road bed clay pits on it, in exchange for the taxes on the rest of the property.

That is what can actually happen, did happen, and I have dozens of these stories, that do not end well.
A trust containing the property with son and father as trustees would have eliminated the problem, including the estate taxes, in this state. You need to be careful about setting up a trust, they can be so tight, you need to go to court to just change oil or tires on a car in the trust. The trust needs to be usable in every day life.
Your state laws could well be different so be advised, you need advice from experts within your state or the state where the estate exists.

[schutzen-jager]

Rapier, truly great advice - my wifes WWII vet father died suddenly last Feb. - +it took me a month to find original signed copy of will [ only legally valid copy for probate in this state ] - my wife named as executer, so much of the burden was on me - found 3 insurance policies that were not updated, in addition to my wife her brother, + sister his wife deceased in 1995 + other Vietnam vet son deceased in 2015 were on policies - i forget the amount of death certificates + statements i had to copy + notarize for the insurance carriers - just when i thought everything was taken care of lawyer learned of another obstacle - because his living son was a state Medicaid recipient years ago he was required to pay back the amount he received in aid [ $30,000, + ] before he could receive his inheritance - the 3 recipients split the amount 3 ways to clear up that debt - hopefully estate should be closed out after Feb. when deceased income tax is completed - insurance amounts are tax free + under certain amounts federal + state inheritance tax are exempt - our lawyer kept legal expenses down by having us do most of the leg work that we could his$400.00 fee saved us many thousands of dollars - my wife + i updated our wills + other incidentals recently so our heirs have it easier -

FYI - if the deceased is a veteran or a volunteer fireman [ in some states ], or union member there are other benefits that are available - all vets entitled to free cemetery stone marker + honor guard - volunteer fireman death benefit -

[waksupi]

I have my will deposited with the county Clerk of Court, cremation pre-paid, and heath directive on file at the local hospital and my doctor.

[Winger Ed.]

Within 48 hours the state sent certified demands, wanting their 35%, of the retail sale value, in a cashiers check, millions of dollars.


Around the country,
a lot of family farms that had been in a family for generations were broken up and sold off to pay inheritance taxes.

[Wag]

Rapier's comments (https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?402533-Lawyer-Am-I-wrong&p=5516040&viewfull=1#post5516040) above are very succinct and to the point. Just get it done, people. Your family and friends will appreciate you for it.

Also,

1. Don't use the forms you find on line. They don't apply to you and you can make mistakes that will burden your family.
2. Get an attorney and if you don't like the first one, keep shopping around. Attorneys can be great at generating fees. We had one who was going to bill us for drive time. At least an hour each way. Ugh.
3. Make a list of where all your docs are and give that list to your executors.
4. Most importantly of all: HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS! It's not really all that pleasant to talk about but better than the unpleasantries of doing business while you're grieving.

A word about trust. They are great if you have a substantial asset base to protect but below a certain amount, fees will eat it all up. There's a right way to do a trust and it's done wrong more often than not.

--Wag--

[JimB..]

Around the country,
a lot of family farms that had been in a family for generations were broken up and sold off to pay inheritance taxes.

Absolutely. Not sure when it went into effect, but there is now a law that allows an illiquid asset to change hands upon death and defers payment of estate taxes. The government takes a lien on the property and holds it until the taxes are paid. It is most often applied to the value of privately owned businesses, including farms. In practice the lien simply expires, and the obligation written off, after 10 years; I don’t think that this is statutory, it’s just what happens.

FWIW, I don’t believe that the story Rapier shared is true. The government will only rarely even know that you’re dead within 48 hours, and they have no claim based on estate tax that would allow them to make such an immediate demand. The only thing I can think is that he had an existing liability, him and not his estate, and that the state had been after him for months or years prior to his unexpected passing. He passed before it was resolved and his family just happened to get the next letter.

[schutzen-jager]

Jim B. - fwiw - sometimes it takes less than 48 hours coroners, funeral directors, electronically report deaths to social security - the IRS is soon involved when estate is probated + executer must obtain an EIN to start administering the estate -

[JoeJames]

I have been practicing law for over 46 years in a small town in the Arkansas Delta. I try to do simple planning. I would say "Estate Planning", but actually what I try to avoid is the person's property whether real or personal from ever becoming an estate. I other words, I try and set it up so there is no estate out there which would require Probate Court. Beneficiary Deeds, or Deeds with Reservation of Life Estate both pass to what would otherwise be the "heirs" at the time of death by operation of law. With bank accounts you can either set them up as a joint account, or "payable on death". In Arkansas you can also change a vehicle title to name a beneficiary. IRA's and Life Insurance policies normally already have a named beneficiary. So in normal circumstances all that is left is personal property and you can always use a Bill of Sale naming the beneficiary.

The biggest tragedy I see on a regular basis is where the decedent had a sure nuff genuine Will, but say had just a small house, a vehicle, and a bank account. Just a small amount of planning could have avoided running all that through Probate Court. In Probate Court, regardless of the size of the "estate" you still have to jump through all of the same legal hoops, with resultant attorney's fees for all of that, plus 3 to 6 months before the estate can even be distributed.

[JimB..]

Jim B. - fwiw - sometimes it takes less than 48 hours coroners, funeral directors, electronically report deaths to social security - the IRS is soon involved when estate is probated + executer must obtain an EIN to start administering the estate -

Agreed.

[ulav8r]

I have been practicing law for over 46 years in a small town in the Arkansas Delta. I try to do simple planning. I would say "Estate Planning", but actually what I try to avoid is the person's property whether real or personal from ever becoming an estate. I other words, I try and set it up so there is no estate out there which would require Probate Court. Beneficiary Deeds, or Deeds with Reservation of Life Estate both pass to what would otherwise be the "heirs" at the time of death by operation of law. With bank accounts you can either set them up as a joint account, or "payable on death". In Arkansas you can also change a vehicle title to name a beneficiary. IRA's and Life Insurance policies normally already have a named beneficiary. So in normal circumstances all that is left is personal property and you can always use a Bill of Sale naming the beneficiary.

The biggest tragedy I see on a regular basis is where the decedent had a sure nuff genuine Will, but say had just a small house, a vehicle, and a bank account. Just a small amount of planning could have avoided running all that through Probate Court. In Probate Court, regardless of the size of the "estate" you still have to jump through all of the same legal hoops, with resultant attorney's fees for all of that, plus 3 to 6 months before the estate can even be distributed.

When mom died last year there was nothing to probate. She had gone into the nursing home in the fall of 2020. We spent down her savings and checking accounts on allowable improvements to her home and vehicle, which were then converted to beneficiary deeds and titles. Upon mothers death my sister became the owners of her property. We then had the mineral rights split off from the property and my sister bought my half of her vehicle. The improvements made to her home brought her cash assets down low enough that she qualified for Medicaid.

[JoeJames]

When mom died last year there was nothing to probate. She had gone into the nursing home in the fall of 2020. We spent down her savings and checking accounts on allowable improvements to her home and vehicle, which were then converted to beneficiary deeds and titles. Upon mothers death my sister became the owners of her property. We then had the mineral rights split off from the property and my sister bought my half of her vehicle. The improvements made to her home brought her cash assets down low enough that she qualified for Medicaid.

But as one of my buddies said regarding Beneficiary Deeds: So we lose our Probate fees?" Ans: "Yup". However Beneficiary Deeds are kind of risky if the Grantor goes into a nursing home. Better, but I do know if you have to go into Probate usually DHS has a lien already on file at the County Clerk's office.

[ascast]

Good read, I can only add- DON'T WAIT. Having gone through this with my mother just 4 years ago. She did not have the living trust finalized, but planned for 15 years. Suddenly her mental abilities dropped off sharply. It was near impossible to get her to sign anything, like the light bill, say nothing off a will of any kind. It took some real creativity to get things in order, like POA, Living trust, etc. So, do not wait or drag your feet. and remember, no matter how you divvy up the pile of loot, somebody will be unhappy. best of luck

ps be very care full any "nurseing home" coverage. What was sold out as 100% coverage was in fact about 20%. We/she got burned badly as it was not cheap. She passed before that became an issue.

[ulav8r]

But as one of my buddies said regarding Beneficiary Deeds: So we lose our Probate fees?" Ans: "Yup". However Beneficiary Deeds are kind of risky if the Grantor goes into a nursing home. Better, but I do know if you have to go into Probate usually DHS has a lien already on file at the County Clerk's office.

We acted under the guidance of an attorney.

[JoeJames]

We acted under the guidance of an attorney.Well it is a crap shoot with DHS hovering around. Still better off then going in Probate Court.

[ulav8r]

Yeah, DHS took the last royalties payment that came about 2 weeks after mom died.

[jonp]

Check out 'Legal Zoom.com".

They did a good job for us on a Living Trust.


Of the products and services they offer--- they've held up in court in all 50 states.

Don't put it off.
My Mom passed away and had a standard type will.
With a attorney the wife worked with, we were in and out of probate in a few minutes,
a couple days after the county issued her death certificate and it could be put on the docket for the court.

My Dad wouldn't get one--- it made him feel old.
When he passed away, with a friendly court and old family friend lawyer-
It cost a little more for the probate, and also added 6 months onto the process to wait
for 'unnamed heirs' to come forward before the judge would sign off and release his estate.
During that time, his bank accounts were locked down, so I got to pay the taxes & maintence
on his house & cars, and couldn't sell or otherwise dispose of them.
Just the taxes for holding his house off the market for 7 months were a 'hidden' expense of a few thousand dollars.


If it will fit for you, a living trust takes the court out of the process, and is real hard to contest.

I ordered a Will from them I think it was $100? Very in depth and all it needed was two witnesses and notorized.

[popper]

A living will -- Called DNR here. But often over-ridden by spouse. There is also POD for financial accounts. As I understand, death certificate and no probate involved. IIRC, usually spouse dies first in case both die simultaneously so POD doesn't work unless another beneficiary is included. There is also something tricky about the estate of ill person - pertaining to mental capacity. Supposed to prevent deathbed wills?

[Winger Ed.]

I ordered a Will from them I think it was $100? Very in depth and all it needed was two witnesses and notorized.

$100? Good deal,,, it costs about that much for a lawyer just to answer the phone.

We did the living trust to speed things up after we're gone, and keep our estate out of probate court.
It sets you up sort of like being a corporation. It lives on after the principles of it are gone.
The executors can continue to manage it, or dissolve it and dispose/distribute its assets without a judge's approval or order.
It is available as a 'kit' with all the documents for everything you can think of- a will, DNR forms, all sorts of stuff.
The only down side is you need to chose the executors very, very carefully.

Ours was a few hundred bucks, but it ends up being a stack of documents about a inch & a half thick.
In our probate and civil law system here--- it's air tight as far as being successfully contested.