got another glock 22

[Lloyd Smale]

son in law has a cousin that's a prison guard. He told me a while back the prison is switching from 4os back to 9s. They are selling off all of there glock 22s. Said a good used one was 275 bucks. Figured I couldn't go wrong at that price and told him to get me one. Well I was to late. they all sold but he said they have a number of new ones still in the box for 375 with 2 mags and night sights. I told him to run not walk and get me one. He came over yesterday and said his cousin is picking it up today. I already have two of them but for that price its hard to pass and its allways been one of my favorite glocks. It just sits in my big hands better then my 23 or 19. That and one of my 22s went in that micro roni deal. If nothing else I could shoot it for a couple years and at that price get my money back.

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't think you can beat $375 for a new Glock 22 with night sights and a spare mag. You will likely get the box, cleaning rod, brush and manual with it.

The G22 is essentially a G17 chambered in 40 S&W, and a proven concept. While I'm not a huge fan of the 40 S&W I do have a G22. It's a solid workhorse with a high capacity mag. Like all Glocks, it is monotonously reliable. It will feed and fire just about anything that slightly resembles a 40 S&W cartridge.

[dragon813gt]

It will feed and fire just about anything that slightly resembles a 40 S&W cartridge.
It will fire 9mm as well, just won’t eject them. I’m in no way saying to do this. Just that I’ve seen it happen due to multiple guns and magazines being out and people not paying attention when loading the magazine and gun.

[Petrol & Powder]

It will fire 9mm as well, just won’t eject them. I’m in no way saying to do this. Just that I’ve seen it happen due to multiple guns and magazines being out and people not paying attention when loading the magazine and gun.

Yeah, I saw the same thing happen with another type of pistol.
An acquaintance showed up with a brand new, never been fired Beretta. He fired 2-3 rounds and the pistol failed to cycle after each shot. He was a bit disappointed in his brand new pistol. I looked at the pistol and it was a Beretta 96 (chambered in 40 S&W) and it was loaded with 9mm cartridges. I told him the gun was chambered for 40 S&W and he responded, "but it's a Beretta", as if that meant it had to be a 9mm pistol.

That guy is a well educated and highly intelligent person but he's not a "gun guy". He went to a gun store and purchased a Beretta thinking that it had to be a Beretta 92. They sold him a Beretta !

[osteodoc08]

I’ve never understood why people love on the 10mm and loathe the 40 S&W. Both can be loaded up and down. The 20SF is a perfect fit to my hand.

[Conditor22]

I wonder if it's because when the 40 SW came out law enforcement bogarted most of the guns and almost all the ammo until they came up with better 9MM ammo then dumped the 40 SW like last year's trash.

10MM doesn't have that history. --- my 2¢

[jdfoxinc]

No the FBI 10mm load was abandoned about 5he same time for 9x19.

[Petrol & Powder]

The history of the 40 S&W is deeply intertwined with the 1986 FBI Miami shootout.
In the aftermath of that horrible event, the FBI blamed the ammunition for the failures that occurred in that event. The FBI went in search of a suitable cartridge. That suitable cartridge wasn't going to be an existing cartridge because that would beg the question - if there was something better; why weren't they already using it ?
They came up with a downloaded 10mm cartridge and that gave birth to the 40 S&W.
And despite what some people now claim, effective 9mm ammunition did exist in the late 1980's; the FBI just wasn't going to acknowledge that it exited.

[1006]

Even with the new 9mm ammo, I still prefer the 40. As a reloader, the forty has more flexibility, and gives a lot less trouble when reloading.

Nice deal on the G22!

[Loudenboomer]

My Glock 22 is always in my truck or on my hip. At least for the last 10 years or so. It gets used and abused on open tractors. Bumps and bruises and gets dirtier than I should let it get and it doesn't miss a beat. I don't shoot it as well as my 1911's but Glocks are about as indestructible and reliable as a hand gun can be. An old LEO Buddy says. "Show your friends your Kimber. Show your enemy your Glock" :)

[Petrol & Powder]

.................. Glocks are about as indestructible and reliable as a hand gun can be...............

/\ True /\

[Lloyd Smale]

me either. Ive allways like the 40 (10s too) . I chuckle at guys that claim the recoil is violent. Have they actually shot 357 mags or for that matter any handgun bigger then a 38s special. If you cant handle a full sized 40 then you better put some more time aside for range work. Heck my wife shoots 44 mags. I love the fact that everyone is switching and nobody wants 40s. Ill take them cheap like this. Still have 3 of the 38 smith police trade ins that they about gave away.
I’ve never understood why people love on the 10mm and loathe the 40 S&W. Both can be loaded up and down. The 20SF is a perfect fit to my hand.

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree. I now have 3 of them and if I found a used one cheap enough in the gunshop id have 4. If shtf I could think of no better gun to have on my hip. I chuckle at the guys that claim the 9 will do anything the 40 will. In a pigs ear. That's about like saying a 357 mag will do anything a 41 mag will do. In my experience guys who claim things like that are guys who are scared of a bit of muzzle rise:brokenima
My Glock 22 is always in my truck or on my hip. At least for the last 10 years or so. It gets used and abused on open tractors. Bumps and bruises and gets dirtier than I should let it get and it doesn't miss a beat. I don't shoot it as well as my 1911's but Glocks are about as indestructible and reliable as a hand gun can be. An old LEO Buddy says. "Show your friends your Kimber. Show your enemy your Glock" :)

[Idaho45guy]

I bought a Glock 22 back in the late 90's and it was fine, but wasn't happy with the accuracy, so traded it in on a Glock 24C. Was very happy with the accuracy with that, but it was just too big. Traded that in on a Glock 31, the .357 Sig version of the G22. Was happy with the accuracy, size, and recoil was fine. I even went to the trouble of customizing it a bit. Got rid of it due to cost of ammo and went to a Walther P99 in .40 S&W. Loved it! had it for a few years until I got into a car accident and financial trouble. Had to sell it. By the time I got back on my feet, Walther had changed the design and I hated the new ones. Went to M&Ps then and have been happy.

Waiting for the Gen 5 .40 S&W Glocks before I buy any more.

[Ed_Shot]

I agree. I now have 3 of them and if I found a used one cheap enough in the gunshop id have 4. If shtf I could think of no better gun to have on my hip. I chuckle at the guys that claim the 9 will do anything the 40 will. In a pigs ear. That's about like saying a 357 mag will do anything a 41 mag will do. In my experience guys who claim things like that are guys who are scared of a bit of muzzle rise:brokenima

Totally agree, when things go south my G22 will be with me.

[FLINTNFIRE]

My first 40 caliber Glock was the 35 , have a 22 also I like them , magazines are the same and magazines are plentiful along with once fired brass .

[fatelk]

I've had my old Glock 22 since the mid '90s. It's always shot great. I just don't understand all the hate for the .40 S&W in recent times. Some people get really worked up about it.

I also don't get the people who repeat the myth that an "improvement in ammo design has made the 9mm just as powerful and effective as the 40 S&W". They repeat it as Gospel truth, but apparently don't understand physics. I say it all the time: a 9mm is "good enough" for most things, but simple physics dictates that it will never be the same as a .40 S&W.

I had a Glock 20 for a short time. I really wanted to like it, I really did. It was just too big for my hands. Maybe if I'd have shot a few hundred more rounds through it, perhaps I'd have gotten used to it. It just wasn't comfortable for me.

[Petrol & Powder]

Nobody wins caliber wars but I'll bite :grin:

I don't hate the 40 S&W but I never warmed up to it. It terms of diameter, the 40 S&W falls exactly between the 9mm and the 45 ACP. I never felt like the gap between 9mm and 45 ACP was a big enough gap that we needed to put something in the middle, but we did just that. I'm not saying it was a bad idea to fill that gap, just saying I'm not sure we needed to fill that gap.

I also would not say that the 9mm is "....just as powerful and effective as the 40 S&W" but I will say it is just as effective.

I find it interesting that a 9mm bullet of .355" diameter, weighing around 115-125 grain and easily travelling over 1200 fps is often considered by some to be inadequate and yet that's far more energy than most 38 Special cartridges deliver. The 38 Special was, and still is, considered to be an adequate self defense cartridge.

When you get right down to the truth, all handguns are rather poor tools to stop a human attacker. Some handgun rounds are better than others but NONE of them are great at stopping human attackers. A handgun is better than harsh language but not as good as a long gun.

When one looks at actual results from shootings, a 115-125 grain +P 9mm hollow point has a pretty good track record, as handgun cartridges go. The 40 S&W is no slouch but nor are other common self defense cartridges. None of the common handgun cartridges significantly stand out above the pack. A 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 9mm Luger, 40 S&W and 45 ACP are ALL capable of penetrating deep enough to stop a fight.

A lot of people are fond of pointing out that a 40 S&W cartridge delivers a bullet that is heavier than a 9mm projectile and faster than a 45 ACP projectile
BUT.....
I like to point out that the 40 S&W projectile is lighter than a 45 ACP bullet and slower than a 9mm projectile. :bigsmyl2:

Like I said, nobody wins caliber wars. :D

[onelight]

The velocity with a .40 will be close to 9mm with bullets that have a similar sectional density.
135 in 40 and 115 in 9 , 155 in 40 and 125 in 9 , 180 in 40 and 147 in 9.
There is a reason the .40 has more recoil . It is more powerful .

[Texas by God]

I’m looking hard at the S&W M&P .40 trade ins. I like a thumb safety on my Glockcopy.........

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well speed and weight do enter in to a caliber war , but size does matter no matter how she smiles and says it isn't so . But accuracy is still king of the war . I to feel that if such improvement has been made in 9 it is also available for 40 or 45 , pick what you want and learn to shoot it , internet b.s. aside it is practice and ability any of them and a whole lot of other calibers will work.

Texas by God I to like those smiths and the safety , funny there are some have the magazine disconnect and others do not , some with safety some without and some with both . Actually been on gunbroker and ended up with a couple 40 and 45 , by the time they all come in and I do paperwork and then the background check it will be next month before I get to shoot any of them.

[Lloyd Smale]

guess that to me is like saying a 2506 is as good on moose as a 35 whelen and so close to the Whelan that we don't need a 06. I guess ill question in what world a 120 grain xtp or gold dot out of a 9 is as effective as a 180 grain gold dot or xtp out of a 40s. Same thing goes for the 40 vs 45. Heck a 45 starts out as big as the 9 is expanded. You are right that its in the middle. I think of it like trucks. Theres little Toyota toy trucks and theres 3/4 diesel TRUCKS! Right in the middle theres the f150 and Silverado. The trucks that are the best choice for about everything. bottom line is the 40 is a great round. The 10mm more so. What killed them was soft americans. Sissys that cant handle recoil and our military and police hiring more and more women who are, well women. But in a gun fight or even in hunting ive never seen a situation where more power was a mistake and sorry to burst bubbles but the 40 has more power then the 9. Don't get me wrong. I love 9s. I probably shoot them more then any other round but I don't pretend its something it isn't. Its a compromise. I even carry one more then I do 40s. Mainly because you can get it in a smaller package. One thing I disagree with though is theres allways a winner in caliber wars. The man using the bigger of the two that can handle it.
Nobody wins caliber wars but I'll bite :grin:

I don't hate the 40 S&W but I never warmed up to it. It terms of diameter, the 40 S&W falls exactly between the 9mm and the 45 ACP. I never felt like the gap between 9mm and 45 ACP was a big enough gap that we needed to put something in the middle, but we did just that. I'm not saying it was a bad idea to fill that gap, just saying I'm not sure we needed to fill that gap.

I also would not say that the 9mm is "....just as powerful and effective as the 40 S&W" but I will say it is just as effective.

I find it interesting that a 9mm bullet of .355" diameter, weighing around 115-125 grain and easily travelling over 1200 fps is often considered by some to be inadequate and yet that's far more energy than most 38 Special cartridges deliver. The 38 Special was, and still is, considered to be an adequate self defense cartridge.

When you get right down to the truth, all handguns are rather poor tools to stop a human attacker. Some handgun rounds are better than others but NONE of them are great at stopping human attackers. A handgun is better than harsh language but not as good as a long gun.

When one looks at actual results from shootings, a 115-125 grain +P 9mm hollow point has a pretty good track record, as handgun cartridges go. The 40 S&W is no slouch but nor are other common self defense cartridges. None of the common handgun cartridges significantly stand out above the pack. A 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 9mm Luger, 40 S&W and 45 ACP are ALL capable of penetrating deep enough to stop a fight.

A lot of people are fond of pointing out that a 40 S&W cartridge delivers a bullet that is heavier than a 9mm projectile and faster than a 45 ACP projectile
BUT.....
I like to point out that the 40 S&W projectile is lighter than a 45 ACP bullet and slower than a 9mm projectile. :bigsmyl2:

Like I said, nobody wins caliber wars. :D

[Lloyd Smale]

Bingo! Fact!
the velocity with a .40 will be close to 9mm with bullets that have a similar sectional density.
135 in 40 and 115 in 9 , 155 in 40 and 125 in 9 , 180 in 40 and 147 in 9.
There is a reason the .40 has more recoil . It is more powerful .

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't want a safety or for SURE a mag disconnect on any combat weapon. I like over half the police depts. in the country have carried glocks for years without a single incident. If they were truly unsafe or dangerous they would surely have all been pulled out of service in this sue happy world. Maybe if I still had kids at home id think different but even when I did there was a cocked and locked 1911 by my bed. Trick to it all is teaching respect for guns and actually learning how to handle and carry them. Safety is between your ears. Always was and always will be.

[Petrol & Powder]

Not sure I agree with this statement that Lloyd wrote: "...What killed them [40 S&W and 10mm] was soft americans. Sissys that cant handle recoil and our military and police hiring more and more women who are, well women."

First - I don't believe the 40 S&W has been killed off, so to speak. I think the 9mm simply regained some market share that it lost in the mid 1990's. The 40 S&W isn't going the way of the Dodo bird, it's here to stay but it will not remain a top seller.

Second - I don't think the 40 S&W's loss of market share is due to recoil sensitive women or "soft" Americans. I'll leave the misogynist characterizations out of this discussion and say that I've seen plenty of people, men & women, that can shoot pistols chambered in 40 S&W just fine. I don't think it's a difficult cartridge to master.
I think the higher potential capacity offered by the 9mm is a factor. I think the terminal performance of the 9mm Luger cartridge is well proven. I think the worldwide NATO distribution and acceptance of the 9mm is a factor for the military. I think the higher round count for the same weight is a factor for the military. I think a lot of LE agencies look to the FBI for guidance in selection of ammunition (and I don't view that as a good thing). I think COST is a huge factor. And I think handgun projectiles of roughly 36 caliber have a LONG history of acceptance in America and beyond.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well it does not need to be a war of what is better , I feel they all have there place and it is what each individual wants to shoot or carry or likes , same with safety or no safety , the 1911 has several built in as do glocks , as to the lever safety again personal choice and or looks .

Same with holsters and position of carry ,choice of ammo , cast or jacketed , revolver or semi-auto . Funny how caliber and or model stirs up feelings , and magazine disconnects as a choice , I prefer without a disconnect but have hi-powers with them so it is not a big deal to me , I always load out of the magazine anyway and carry spares , but there is a market or some purchasers who specified the want .

Back to the G22 , has a different length of barrel then the G19 or G35 again a personal preference , I carry a full size when I carry which is all the time , I am glad there are the choices , caliber , model , maker, length , and finish , I also prefer blue and wood , but have plastic or rubber grips and maybe some that are not blue .

Anyway back to watching the caliber war .:coffeecom

[Texas by God]

A 1911 Commander in .40 would be neat.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[ASSASSIN]

I guess I'm the odd duck in the bunch! When Law Enforcement went to semi-auto handguns, and I saw a drastic rise in Officer deaths, I stopped firearms training, as I was a Firearms Training Instructor for many years!

Everyone's thought was the mentality of the verbal "pray and spray" and the more rounds you could send down range the better!

I still shoot what "I" feel is the best self protection handguns that have ever been produced - S&W 686, Ruger GP-100 and Colt Python, all 357 magnums, which to this day is still the best one-shot-stop of all time, and with a 125 gr. JHP @ a minimum of 1,500 fps..

I have boxes with literally thousands of pages of reports of police shootings from all over the Unites States dating back to 1975, and to this day, no other gun or cartridge has proven to be more effective as a man stopper than the 357 magnum. The 158 gr. JHP was the most popular bullet of choice in "cold" or wintertime weather conditions, because the heavier weight offered better penetration through heavy coats and jackets, and if you had to shoot through a winshield, those 158 gr. bullets while not a magic bullet, performed admirably!

Accuracy was also far superior to most any semi-auto pistol at the time of transition, and there were also far less bystanders that were shot and wounded and or killed from stray bullets!

Me myself, I carry the 3 mentioned revolvers above, all with 158 gr. JHP bullets, and have NEVER felt undergunned, and I have been in several fire fights in my time!

[afish4570]

Ammo cost of the 40 was one of the determining factors too. Add to the fact most police recruits have little pistol shooting experience. Competitive shooters shoot alot of ammo per year. In IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Assoc.) almost all shooter are using 9mm. USPSA formerly called (IPSC) UNITES STATES PRACTICAL SHOOTERS ASSOC. alot of 45 shooters have switched to 9mm. Costs of ammo or components is a large contributing factor. afish4570

[FLINTNFIRE]

Cost for us reloader / casters is small compared to those who do not reload or cast , but I have had a woman in a gun shop tell me 9mm was to cheap and not practical to load for , I laughed and said I guess if you do not make your own bullet or save your brass .

I like the 357 magnum also , along with a lot of other styles and calibers , used to load it hot , now I find more enjoyment out of more middle of the road loads .

[fatelk]

I also would not say that the 9mm is "....just as powerful and effective as the 40 S&W" but I will say it is just as effective.
I think a better point would be that it is just as effective for some things. I've seen all the studies that indicate that the 9mm is statistically as effective as both the .40 S&W and the .45 acp, when it comes to stopping people. They also indicate that the lowly .380 auto is very nearly as effective as well. That is fascinating information that once again highlights the importance of marksmanship and shot placement over caliber. Statistics aside, I would still prefer having a .45 in my hand than a .380, if I actually had to use it. On the other hand, those statistics do make me feel better about carrying a .380 when I do.

So, while the 9mm may be just as effective as the .40 for many if not most human sized targets, physics alone dictates that it cannot be "as effective" in all circumstances. For shooting sports that require a certain amount of energy to knock over a target, the .40 has an edge. For walking in the woods where you could encounter predators tougher than humans, the .40 has the edge.

All that said, there's no caliber war for me; I like them all!

Honestly I would prefer the 9mm if I had to only have one. As a caster and reloader, cost of ammo is not an issue. The cost difference between loading the two (as a caster) is negligible. I do load and shoot a lot more 9mm, but I bought a Sub-2000 in .40 a while back. I bought the .40 Glock mag version because I already have Glock 22 mags, but I kind of wish I had bought the 9mm version instead. I've heard stories about the Sub-2000 in .40 not holding up with a lot of use.

[Lloyd Smale]

ill agree its sure not completely dead. but sales are lacking and used ones go for a good 100 bucks less then the same model in 9. But the military left the 45 behind because the troops and the new wave of women in the military couldn't handle recoil. At least that was one of there reasons. The fbi ditched the 10 for the 40 because of recoil and one of the main reasons they went back to the 9 was new recruits, especially the females were struggling with the 40. FACT is the 9 is just easier to teach someone who never shot a gun or someone that doesn't want to put in the time to master a bit bigger gun. Granted not all women struggle but you know as well as I do that was one of the reasons the military, fbi and local and state police have gone to the 9mm. They try justifying it by saying with this new high tech ammo the 9 is as effective as the 40. Maybe as effective as the 40 was in the 70s with 70s bullet technology but the exact same bullets they brag on for the 9 are available in the BIGGER and MORE POWERFUL 40 and 45. If you want to talk all American hero its hands down the 45. The 36 cals have allways been considered weaker little sisters to the 45. Be it the cap and ball, the colt saa or in the military up to and including viet nam and still in many special forces ranks. I guess I have to ask whats next? In 30 year when this video game culture of kids grows up and goes to war and there kids which will be softer yet goes to war are they going to arm them with 22lr with some woopy te doo hp killer bullet:kidding: One thing any handgun hunter knows and especially anyone that uses cast bullets is that SIZE MATTERS. Matter to us and it matter to anyone who has to actually kill something. Youd think with all this bs about the 9s and there HIGH TECK KILLING MACHINE NEW TECHNOLOGY bullets your hear talked about we would be seeing them with scopes on them in the deer, bear, pig and elk hunting woods. If that bullet kills like they claim on a human it sure would be deadly on a deer!!! Blow them right into the next century:coffeecom
Not sure I agree with this statement that Lloyd wrote: "...What killed them [40 S&W and 10mm] was soft americans. Sissys that cant handle recoil and our military and police hiring more and more women who are, well women."

First - I don't believe the 40 S&W has been killed off, so to speak. I think the 9mm simply regained some market share that it lost in the mid 1990's. The 40 S&W isn't going the way of the Dodo bird, it's here to stay but it will not remain a top seller.

Second - I don't think the 40 S&W's loss of market share is due to recoil sensitive women or "soft" Americans. I'll leave the misogynist characterizations out of this discussion and say that I've seen plenty of people, men & women, that can shoot pistols chambered in 40 S&W just fine. I don't think it's a difficult cartridge to master.
I think the higher potential capacity offered by the 9mm is a factor. I think the terminal performance of the 9mm Luger cartridge is well proven. I think the worldwide NATO distribution and acceptance of the 9mm is a factor for the military. I think the higher round count for the same weight is a factor for the military. I think a lot of LE agencies look to the FBI for guidance in selection of ammunition (and I don't view that as a good thing). I think COST is a huge factor. And I think handgun projectiles of roughly 36 caliber have a LONG history of acceptance in America and beyond.

[Lloyd Smale]

effective for some things> theres the real fact. Its a good round for small concealable guns when you don't want to carry or cant carry a big gun. Its also a GREAT round for us casters for a plinker. Not much is cheaper to shoot then a 9 with cast bullets. To me it has replaced the 22lr. About as cheap to shoot and a heck of a lot more fun. but how many of us here if were honest and had a 250 lb man busting through the front door and your kids were standing behind you and you had two guns sitting there. A glock 22 loaded with 180 grain gold dots or a glock 17 loaded with 120 grain gold dots would actually prefer the 9?

[Petrol & Powder]

I don't believe the military abandoned the 45ACP because of female military members. The U.S.A. was the only NATO member using something other than the 9mm, the 9mm allowed more ammo for a given weight and the 9mm allows more capacity in the pistol. So I don't buy the reason for the switch as, ".....new wave of women in the military couldn't handle recoil."


As for your statement, "...Granted not all women struggle but you know as well as I do that was one of the reasons the military, fbi and local and state police have gone to the 9mm."
I'll be the judge of what I KNOW. I don't think you have the ability to read my mind so how about you confine your opinions to what you believe?
You seem to be really fixated on recoil and female shooters.

[44MAG#1]

I have to agree with Mr. Smale on the vast majority of the things he said. After watching many people shoot over the years I have seen many people shoot low recoil firearms fairly well but bump up the recoil slightly and they "drop the ball " big time. And a lot of the times it does take much of an increase if they are at the top of their recoil tolerance window with what they are shooting already.

[kevin c]

...Competitive shooters shoot alot of ammo per year. In IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Assoc.) almost all shooter are using 9mm. USPSA formerly called (IPSC) UNITES STATES PRACTICAL SHOOTERS ASSOC. alot of 45 shooters have switched to 9mm. Costs of ammo or components is a large contributing factor. afish4570
My take on caliber choice in the action pistol sports is a bit different. I think it's driven by the nature of the sport, the desire to look for competitive advantage, and the rules meant to constrain that desire for the sake of making it a game of skill rather than who can afford the latest equipment tweak or load down cat sneeze levels.

At least for USPSA, winning involves scoring the most points in the least time, which favors light kicking cartridges that allow fast recoil recovery and that can be stuffed into magazines in large numbers, thus minimizing time consuming magazine changes (ultra high capacity "big sticks" are allowed in some divisions, but most restrict mag length). That means 9mm has considerable advantages, except in divisions where the rules were written specifically to support the larger cartridges (Single Stack) and heavier recoil (major power factor) of the 45 ACP and the 40 S&W.

True the cost per round is higher with the 45 and 40 vs 9mm, but I think the move to 9mm is more motivated by competitive advantage, along with the fact that the fastest growing division is Production, where the dominant cartridge is 9mm because it's the most common chambering for the off the shelf handguns folks buy in their LGS, which the division is meant to support.

[Lloyd Smale]

tell you what. You post what you want and ill post what I want. Unless we break a rule then a moderator can decide
I don't believe the military abandoned the 45ACP because of female military members. The U.S.A. was the only NATO member using something other than the 9mm, the 9mm allowed more ammo for a given weight and the 9mm allows more capacity in the pistol. So I don't buy the reason for the switch as, ".....new wave of women in the military couldn't handle recoil."


As for your statement, "...Granted not all women struggle but you know as well as I do that was one of the reasons the military, fbi and local and state police have gone to the 9mm."
I'll be the judge of what I KNOW. I don't think you have the ability to read my mind so how about you confine your opinions to what you believe?
You seem to be really fixated on recoil and female shooters.

[Petrol & Powder]

tell you what. You post what you want and ill post what I want. Unless we break a rule then a moderator can decide
You know as well as I do that people who gravitate towards large calibers are compensating for some physical shortcoming.......:wink:

[Lloyd Smale]

Or maybe are just used to a bit more then TINY

[Petrol & Powder]

Or maybe are just used to a bit more then TINY

Congratulations, you almost managed to string 11 words together without a spelling or grammar error.

[Ramjet-SS]

me either. Ive allways like the 40 (10s too) . I chuckle at guys that claim the recoil is violent. Have they actually shot 357 mags or for that matter any handgun bigger then a 38s special. If you cant handle a full sized 40 then you better put some more time aside for range work. Heck my wife shoots 44 mags. I love the fact that everyone is switching and nobody wants 40s. Ill take them cheap like this. Still have 3 of the 38 smith police trade ins that they about gave away.

Keep in mind that the 10 was abandoned because smaller stature men and female agents could NOT qualify with them. The 10 is an outstanding performance handgun but if the person tasked with shooting it cannot hitbanything with it it’s useless. I am huge 10mm fan and carry mine more than any other caliber I own.

[dverna]

I love my G22's.

Even bought a Lonewolf 9mm conversion and 9mm mags so I can shoot two calibers with one gun. Mine is boringly reliable which is what I want in a SD gun. I shoot tighter groups with the Kimbers, but that level of precision is not needed for SD.

And I like the longer heavier trigger pull for SD.

Lloyd...that is a great price. Cannot go wrong.

[fatelk]

I love the fact that everyone is switching and nobody wants 40s. Ill take them cheap like this. Still have 3 of the 38 smith police trade ins that they about gave away.

Absolutely. I think that a lot of people fail to realize the actual reason that used .40 S&W pistols are so much cheaper right now. There's this idea that it's because "you can't even give them away", "nobody wants them", they're less desirable, they're inferior somehow. Less demand is part of it, but the abundant supply is the real reason. It's simple supply and demand; there's a glut on the market because so many police departments have switched back to 9mm recently. Because of that glut, used .40 cal pistols are a heck of a bargain right now. If I wasn't pinching pennies so tight I'd buy another for a spare. I wish I'd have bought a dozen used service revolvers back in the mid '90s when they were cheap.

[fcvan]

My loving wife came home from a visit with family holding a box that said Glock, "if you don't want it, I'll take it." I told her to 'hand it over.' My brother bought his son in law a Glock 22C, nephew had a college buddy who had a G23 but wanted the G27. Wife says 'I pay you, you give the G23 to nephew, he gives me the G22C' and she in turn gave it to me. Friend was a deputy and was able to order the G27 for $300.

Down side, it is a G22C with compensation ports, bad choice for low light shooting scenarios. But still, it started a costly trend. When I went through a law enforcement distributor, I ordered her a G23 and one for me, with sequential serial numbers. She went over the top ecstatic. Down the road, I bought her a conversion barrel and lots of 9mm mags, and for my brother and me for the G22s and G23s. Kind of solved my compensation port issue.

I liked going to the range with 2 barrels, plenty of loaded mags for both, a good range day for basic drills. An avid reloader my wife and I always pick up brass, including 15K of 9mm. I was also picking up 357 Sig brass, so much so that I bought a conversion barrel and dies. A buddy who was a reserve deputy was carrying the Sig, always picked up his brass, and learned I was going to reload for it. He gave me all his brass which included 600 rounds of factory loads. I shot it over a chrono and worked up loads. The Lee 358-125 RF is the exact same profile as the factory round. Factory went 1350 fps while my loads ran 1325 so I stopped there.

Then Glock came out with the G42 380 so I bought 2. I requested sequential numbers but was let down. When the G43 came out I bought 2, and received sequential, Wife digs that. Best part was my birthday is a number that frequently comes up, like in the phone number I had, etc. She got that one, I got the one following. Again, these were purchased through a law enforcement supplier, and the price came out with taxes, registration, and shipping at retail.

Wife didn't have a G22 and a fundraiser was being held to support law enforcement who have been injured, and was engraved with the Dept. logo and the Union insignia. I'm retired and still a dues paying member as I still believe that union did plenty for the Officers regarding pay, benefits, legal representation, and safety equipment/workplace safety issues.

My EDC shifts between the G22 and the G43 and I don't feel out gunned with the 9mm. Yes, I carry extra mags for my carry guns. I have lots of other 'favorites' and for years carried a S&W M13 357 (yes, 3 speed loaders) or a 1911 45 (yes, 3 mags). I still do the same shooting drills we trained with when I was on our version of SWAT. A perishable skill, accurate shooting requires regular shooting, and I shoot, therefor I reload.

[Lloyd Smale]

thank you. I really struggle without your approval. Thank you also for your service as the grammar police. Guess though when you have no valid argument a personal attack on someone's intelligence is about all you have :coffeecom. Tell you what we can do to make peace. We will just stick to what we know. You-grammar, me-guns
Congratulations, you almost managed to string 11 words together without a spelling or grammar error.

[Petrol & Powder]

LLoyd, no one is questioning your knowledge of firearms, it is you assertion of opinions as if they were fact that is causing the friction.

It is acceptable to use the phrase, "You know as well as I do" to put forth a fact. Here's an example, "You know as well as I do that the earth orbits the sun". That is a scientific fact and a defensible statement.

It is not acceptable to use the phrase "You know as well as I do" to put forth an opinion as if it were a fact. Here's an example, "You know as well as I do that every retired lineman in Michigan voted for Hilary Clinton". Not only is that an obviously false assertion, the very premise is indefensible.

You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.

[ioon44]

:popcorn:

[44MAG#1]

Ones perception becomes ones truth.

[rbuck351]

That is a good price for a G22 but I still wouldn't want one even at that price. I was a range office for DOC for a few years and went to a advanced handgun instructor course where we fired 1500 to 2000 rounds in three days with the G22. It wore a hole in my middle finger where it rubs against the bottom of the trigger gaurd. There was another spot that got pretty tender as well. The main thing I have against Glocks is they don't point naturally to where I'm looking. I traded for a glock 21 and I liked it much better than the G22 but it still was high left when pointed in and takes a while to get used to. Although the 45 has more recoil than the 40, it didn't feel as sharp. and it didn't wear holes in my hand.

My favorite carry handgun is a Springfield xds in 45. It only holds 6 shots, 8 with extended mag, but I doubt I'll ever run into more than three or for bad guys at once. I have several 9s and 45s but no 40/10mms. I do have a RBH in 41 mag but it doesn't conceal well and with a 270gr hard core jacketed bullet at 1100fps it might over penetrate a bit. I make the bullets from 40 S&W cases if that counts.

[44MAG#1]

Band aids prevent finger rub.

[rbuck351]

Actually band aids just slow the rubs some and the range officer doesn't wait for you to change them when they wear through. Smoothing the bottom of the trigger guard helps some but still doesn't stop it.
Because the glocks don't fit my hand well and they are hard to change and I can't change my hand to fit a glock, I found other guns that fit my hand.

[Idaho45guy]

Actually band aids just slow the rubs some and the range officer doesn't wait for you to change them when they wear through. Smoothing the bottom of the trigger guard helps some but still doesn't stop it.
Because the glocks don't fit my hand well and they are hard to change and I can't change my hand to fit a glock, I found other guns that fit my hand.

I like Glocks and they fit me well, but I sure wouldn't put up with a pistol that not only didn't fit right, but caused physical injury. I believe the only pistol that I was injured from shooting was my 1911 in the Navy due to slide bite.

[Lloyd Smale]

you have to use what you like and are sure can have your own opinion but 1500-2000 rounds I 3 days made you finger bleed? Id bet 99 percent of the soldiers today don't shoot that many shots in a deployment. I know cops that probably haven't shot that many rounds in 10 years. I had a 396 smith that with full power Keith loads would make me bleed! But it was such a handy gun to carry in the hunting woods for a back up that I used it anyway. Ive been slide bit by 1911s. Never made me sell them all off. Ive shot buffalo with 500 linebaughs. Surely not what some here call a pleasant gun to plink with but it was a capable tool for the job. I kind of struggled at first with the pointing of glocks. Today if I grab a 1911 or about anything but a glock I have to mentality think when I shoot because I point a glock naturally. Came from YEARS of shooting and practice. Theres one thing that's very hard to argue against a glock. For the money your not going to find a more reliable gun. Nope there not pretty, not target grade accurate and not everyones favorite but pull that trigger and a bullet is going down the barrel. Its why its the most popular sidearm in the world today. I have nothing against an xd but they don't even make the top 10. But then that's only my opinion.

P&P If all we were allowed to post here are cold hard facts casting posts with the exception of pc would have dried up 20 years ago on here. One thing I can be absolutely sure of. Ask someone what is the best bullet or alloy or piece of reloading equipment and im going to get a lot more opinion then fact. Ask me those questions and my answers to me are fact. Answers ive gleamed from 40 years of experience. If you don't agree then prove me wrong. Until then I AM entitled to my facts. Been on this forum since about its inception. I think ive helped enough people that my opinions are respected and that people on here know that when I answer or give a suggestion it comes from real world experience. What I don't need is someone telling me how to spell or making up there own rules of decorum and posting on here. If I bother you use the ignore feature. If I break a rule, and I have in the past, the moderators are quick to straighten me out. YOU do not tell me what is expectable on here.

[Lloyd Smale]

you have to use what you like and are sure can have your own opinion but 1500-2000 rounds I 3 days made you finger bleed? Id bet 99 percent of the soldiers today don't shoot that many shots in a deployment. I know cops that probably haven't shot that many rounds in 10 years. I had a 396 smith that with full power Keith loads would make me bleed! But it was such a handy gun to carry in the hunting woods for a back up that I used it anyway. Ive been slide bit by 1911s. Never made me sell them all off. Ive shot buffalo with 500 linebaughs. Surely not what some here call a pleasant gun to plink with but it was a capable tool for the job. I kind of struggled at first with the pointing of glocks. Today if I grab a 1911 or about anything but a glock I have to mentality think when I shoot because I point a glock naturally. Came from YEARS of shooting and practice. Theres one thing that's very hard to argue against a glock. For the money your not going to find a more reliable gun. Nope there not pretty, not target grade accurate and not everyones favorite but pull that trigger and a bullet is going down the barrel. Its why its the most popular sidearm in the world today. I have nothing against an xd but they don't even make the top 10. But then that's only my opinion.

P&P If all we were allowed to post here are cold hard facts casting posts with the exception of pc would have dried up 20 years ago on here. One thing I can be absolutely sure of. Ask someone what is the best bullet or alloy or piece of reloading equipment and im going to get a lot more opinion then fact. Ask me those questions and my answers to me are fact. Answers ive gleamed from 40 years of experience. If you don't agree then prove me wrong. Until then I AM entitled to my facts. Been on this forum since about its inception. I think ive helped enough people that my opinions are respected and that people on here know that when I answer or give a suggestion it comes from real world experience. What I don't need is someone telling me how to spell or making up there own rules of decorum and posting on here. If I bother you use the ignore feature. If I break a rule, and I have in the past, the moderators are quick to straighten me out. YOU do not tell me what is expectable on here. I could be wrong but I don't think they asked you to make up new rules. Now im done with this childishness.

[FergusonTO35]

I load my Glock 22 with 4.3 grains Bullseye/Lee 401-175-TC for a an easy to shoot 920 fps that hits plenty hard. Its like having a 15 shot .38-40 or .44 Special! Now, if I didn't reload I would have no use for the .40, most factory ammo is no fun whatsoever to shoot.

[Petrol & Powder]

Lloyd, Right here in post #32 is where we got crosswise......


.............. you know as well as I do that was one of the reasons the military, fbi and local and state police have gone to the 9mm. .............

You gave your opinion and added the phrase, "you know as well as I do" to portray that opinion as if is was an absolute fact.
If you care to go back and edit that to something like, "I believe that was one of the reasons the military, FBI, local and State Police have gone to the 9mm...."; we would have no quarrel.

Your opinion does not automatically become fact simply because you stick the phrase, "you know as well as I do..." in front of it.
Your age doesn't convert your opinions to fact.
Your experience doesn't convert your opinion to fact.
Your length of time on this forum doesn't convert your opinion to fact.

A man once said the earth was the center of the universe and the sun orbited around the earth. That man's status as the Pope didn't make that viewpoint fact. Nor did his status as Pope make that a correct statement.

So while I can respect your knowledge gained through age and experience, that doesn't mean I must accept your opinions as fact.

[44MAG#1]

Since we are talking opinion here, Listed in order of importance, what would P&P and LS list as the most important of their "opinions" as the reasons for change to the 9MM. Lets say the top 4 reasons?
I am interested in knowing. I have my own opinions but will not divulge them here as I dont want to get into my feeblemindedness.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK,
OPINIONS here:
Some in the U.S. military expressed desires to adopt the 9mm shortly after WWII but that movement gained little traction until the late 1970's. The S&W model 39 was in direct response to the U.S. Ordinance department's search for a 9mm pistol in the late 1940's and early 1950's.
The U.S. was the only NATO member that didn't standardize on the 9mm pistol cartridge and I believe that was a far bigger factor for the military's adoption of the 9mm than any need to accommodate female soldiers (who were not in combat roles in those days)
I believe, Logistics, cost and weight of ammunition played significant roles in the military's adoption of the 9mm.
I believe, As the existing stock of 1911 pistols became more and more worn and the rest of NATO was solidly behind the 9mm cartridge, it became more difficult for the individuals holding out for the 45 ACP to make their case.
The requirements set forth in the M9 program included many criteria but one of those requirements was the new pistol would be chambered in 9mm. So by the time the pistol trials were being held in the early 1980's, the replacement pistol was going to be a 9mm pistol.

More OPINIONS here:
American law enforcement seemed to be fairly content with the 38/357 revolvers (a .357" projectile that is very close to the .355" 9mm projectile) however times changed in the 1980's
Some departments had already made the switch (Illinois State Police is possibly one of the more well known) and LAPD authorized the Beretta model 92 in the late 1980's. But as the violence of the drug trade increased, there was a market opportunity for 9mm pistols and manufactures wanting to fill that market. So, in my opinion, the increase in drug trade, particularly the appearance of crack cocaine, fueled some of that demand.

After the 1986 Miami Shootout, the FBI went in search of another cartridge. By the early 1990's large portions of American LE had switched from revolvers to 9mm pistols and then the FBI was promoting the 40 S&W. So we saw another switch in American LE, this time from 9mm to 40 S&W. So opinion here, but that switch was driven at least in part by state and local agencies following the FBI's lead.

Now, there is a current trend back to 9mm for American law enforcement.
A few possible factors driving that trend are: Cost, 9mm generally costs less per round than 40 S&W. The differences may not be huge but when you look at large orders and big budgets, pennies count.
Pistol capacity - this isn't a big factor for me personally but I think police administrators and trainers look at pistol capacity.
Number of rounds for a given weight. Like the military, this is important. Cops carry a lot of gear and it only gets worse. Workman's comp claims for back injuries, the amount of ammo available for officers engaging a mass shooting suspect(s) and maybe even just convenience may play into these decisions.

I think the 40 S&W was perceived to be a huge improvement over the 9mm but over time it didn't prove to be as great of an improvement as originally believed. The advantages of the 9mm (reduced cost, reduced weight, increased capacity) began to chip away at the 40's marketing lead.


None of that is carved in stone. Just opinions.

[35remington]

Also opinion

Top 4

Cost
Cost
Cost
Less recoil

In comparable guns capacity is one round less in single stack guns and two rounds less in double stack guns. Not enough difference to make a difference IMO. I cannot imagine losing a fight because I had 16 rounds available but winning because I had 18.

And oddly once cost is factored in the 40 got labeled with the “uncontrollable” appellation from those who were looking for something besides the cost thing to justify their choice. I find that to be somewhat true with the lightweight subcompact pistols, less so with the compact and service size pistols. It must have been so uncontrollable that police used it for twenty years. Uncontrollable is hyping things a bit....but some tend toward that. My Shield is snappy but manageable with a regular practice regimen. This is less of a deal than some make it out to be.

Also find it interesting where it is said that only permanent cavity matters in wounding effect, and will note that means what the bullet directly strikes....and will also note the 40 averages notably larger in the frontal area of its expanded bullets than a 9 does.

Does this matter? I do not know for sure, but it is not a detriment and is quite possibly a benefit.

If 40 factory ammo was as cheap as nine a lot more people would find the recoil quite tolerable I suspect, and the arguments as to which was superior overall would have a lot of give and take.

[elmacgyver0]

I haven't really shot anything I didn't like.
I even like guns that shoot rubber bands.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup no rubber band guns but my handguns go from 22lr to 500 Linebaugh. Took a look in the safe and have 7 40s and 11 9mms (two are ar15s) My most shot handguns are 9s. heck my most shot rifle is my 9mm ar15. Not because I think they have some mystical power they get from the gods but because of exactly the reason 35rem gave. There cheap to shoot. Got to love them for that.
I haven't really shot anything I didn't like.
I even like guns that shoot rubber bands.

[rbuck351]

My experience is just the opposite as I have shot the 1911 in 45acp since the middle 70s to the point I don't need sights for decent hits to 15 yds or more. The xds in 45 points in the same for me.
I have shot the Glock 21 and 22 enough to make good hits rapidly but it takes more concentration because they both shoot high left for me when pointed in without using sights. Glocks are very good guns and are as reliable as anything but they just don't fit me right.
Maybe I have formed bad habits from shooting a 1911 for as long as I have. Another handgun that is a natural pointer for me is a 4" M28 S&W. With either of these or the XDs I can look at a target close my eyes and point the gun where I think the target is, open my eyes and be very close. The Glocks won't do this for me and this is the only reason I don't own one. I actually like the Glock21 but the non fit makes it a bad choice for me for a defense handgun. I think one should use what he can shoot and operate the best.

[Lloyd Smale]

when I first started shooting glocks I had the same trouble as you. Now its just the opposite. Im so used to shooting them that a 1911 doesn't point for me. Its all in what you practice with. Or what you learned with. Ive had cops that shot glocks all there lives ask me how I can even shoot a 1911 accurately and that think there more of an accurate competition gun then a serious service gun to count on to protect your life. Glocks are kind of like that. Either you hate them or love them and 99 percent of the time if I find someone who says they don't point right its someone that hasn't shot more then 500 rounds out of one and gave it a chance. An indy car racer cant jump in a nascar car and win a race. Give someone who shoots trap competitively a Mossberg 500 they've never shot before and see how there scores tank. Bit of advice to anyone whos like me and has many different handguns they shoot is to quit practicing the instinctive pointing and practice ALLWAYS putting the front sight on the target and then shooting. At combat range if you put that slight blade on the target your going to hit it with any gun. Practice so much that you ALLWAYS "instinctively" put the blade on the target. A guy who knew guns more then me taught me to do that. He said 99 percent of the people that think they can instinctively shoot miss under the stress of real combat. Many of the old gun slingers believed in that. They were more conserned with actually taking the time to INSURE they were going to hit there target then the speed at which they got off the first shot.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I find all the reports of people shooting cast boolits in Glock barrels with good results encouraging. Got a bid in on a G34 MOS. Had a 34 when they first came out and used it as my IDPA "race gun". Because it was lighter than a 1911 my draw times were faster. And it had great accuracy too. Should go nicely with my AR carbine that takes Glock mags. The 34 will be my plinking and vehicle carry piece.

[Idaho45guy]

when I first started shooting glocks I had the same trouble as you. Now its just the opposite. Im so used to shooting them that a 1911 doesn't point for me. Its all in what you practice with. Or what you learned with.

Hopefully I'll find out soon enough when my first 1911 is able to be picked up from my FFL... Ordered it three weeks ago and it arrived within a week, but my FFL is also a deputy and has been distracted. First, he forgot to submit my background check, which delayed things a week, then the check came back clear, but he changed shifts to one opposite of mine, so I have to wait until Wednesday to finally go pick it up. On my lunch hour. Won't be able to shoot it for another few days.

I've never gotten the argument about certain pistols not being natural pointers or accurate for some folks. I've been blessed with the ability to pick up pretty much any pistol and shoot it to it's full potential.

I've had friends own handguns that they declare as inaccurate and ask me to shoot them to verify. Most have been plenty accurate. The latest that even I wasn't able to get to shoot accurately was a Ruger SP101 in .357 Magnum. My buddy couldn't hardly hit a paper plate at 10 yards. I got it to group maybe 4". Advised him to get rid of it.

Pretty sure I'll be fine with a 1911.

In fact, I was with my girlfriend at a beginners handgun course last summer to monitor her progress, and the instructor was a notable ISPC competitor who brought along his hot rodded STI 1911. He invited me to shoot plates with him after the course was over. I had my Glock G19 Gen 5 in my holster.

I shot just as fast as he did with the Glock. Then he handed me the 1911. Shot the first string just as fast. He was impressed and said I really should join and get into competition. Sorry, not enough time or money to get into it.

But admittedly, I am a bit of a unicorn.

[Lloyd Smale]

your a shooter so im sure youll do fine with it. Most of this kind of bs comes from people who don't shoot. Lots of people with NO experience buy glocks. why? Because there reliable and cheap and very few bad words are said about them. Then when they cant hit something with them they blame the gun. Same with people that buy stupid first guns like a snubby 357 and put full power loads in it and blame the gun when they cant hit anything with there face twisted and there eyes shut! No doubt about it, the 1911 platform is going to be more accurate then a glock. At least 80 percent of the 1911s ive shot. But truth be told if I had to get into a gun fight id much rather have a 22,23,19 or 17 glock on my hip then a 1911. If your talking a deep cover gun id take a 43 ANYDAY over an officers sized 1911. This comes from a guy that carried an officers sized 1911 (Kimber cdp) for over 10 years. Theres good and bad 1911s and usually it comes down to how much $ your willing to plunk down but to get a really good one your going to spend twice what this new 22 cost me and even then I wouldn't bet my house that it will run as well as that glock. Matter of fact I wouldn't bet 10 bucks on it. Spend 375 on a new 1911 and I can about guarantee you headaches. It will either run well and shoot like crap or shoot well and run like crap or do both like crap.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Lloyd: you done good at $375 for a new G22. The street price right now for a used one out here is $625-700 and that with one mag. My LGS has restocked 3 times in the last 2 weeks and is selling guns like hamburgers. They can't keep any handgun in stock. When he is selling 8-10 guns a day from a Surplus Store you know something is happening outside.

As far as that Front Sight thing? I think I know where you got that? Could it have been at "Front Sight?" That's where i heard about it.

Randy

[Lloyd Smale]

I actually got it from a shooter I competed with that I respected very much. Someone whos been there and done that and doesn't just own the t shirt. Now he may have got it there I don't know. But I do know a lot of very experienced people who have actually used handguns in combat and police work agree with that training method. Even old wild bill hickock preached that taking the time to insure a hit always trumped speed in a gun fight.
Lloyd: you done good at $375 for a new G22. The street price right now for a used one out here is $625-700 and that with one mag. My LGS has restocked 3 times in the last 2 weeks and is selling guns like hamburgers. They can't keep any handgun in stock. When he is selling 8-10 guns a day from a Surplus Store you know something is happening outside.

As far as that Front Sight thing? I think I know where you got that? Could it have been at "Front Sight?" That's where i heard about it.

Randy

[Ramjet-SS]

Absolutely agree front sight focus is the key to putting rounds on Target accurately.

I can shoot just about any handgun and frequently do practice with 3-4 different ones per range session.

A gun shop owner handed me a gun once asked if I could run some ammo through it. It was compact 1911 45 ACP. The guy brought it back Said it shot 6ft low at 10 yards. Hey 50 rounds of ammo for free heck yes I will shoot it. I shot 50 round box at 10 yards cut about a 4” ragged hole 1” low from bulls eye and slightly to the left. But the web of my hand was raw from a sharp edge on the grip frame safety. So that gun was shooting low it was biting him, he would push the gun down that far and it was shooting 6’ low right where he was pointing it. :bigsmyl2: By the way compact 1911 is finicky feeder the Glocks feed anything and in a small package they definitely are more reliable than the compact 1911 45....

[ioon44]

Front sight and squeeze.

[Texas by God]

In an interview, Officer Jim Cirillo of the NYPD stakeout squad was asked what went through his mind during the many gunfights that he won. His answer was “Front sight, front sight, front sight.” It is the most important part of a gun if you wish to hit something.