Is sub MOA possible with Cast ?

[Wolfdog91]

So I'm curious,after watching a ton of videos on cast bullets I don't think I've seen any that shiw cast bullets grouping better than many 1.5" at 100yd. Now I could be totally wrong but seems to be the common deal and fist sized groups are whats expected. Now I'm no bench rest shooter but I love small groups with my relaods and wanted to know is it possible to get sub MOA groups with cast bullets ? It's it possible with a bit of extra work or is it just not there ? Are certain calibers in cast more in inherently accurate ?

[M-Tecs]

Basic casting techniques and minimal effort will get you to the 1.5" at 100 yards with a quality setup. Shooters do get much better accuracy than that but it generally does take a significant amount of effort and testing to get there.

Some of the records here.

https://castbulletassoc.org/benchrest-records

One of the more famous groups of the past

The Ultimate in Rifle Precision

By: Townsend Whelen

Sportsman's Press, 1951



THE WORLD'S RECORD AT 200 YARDS

American riflemen have always considered the group of ten shots at 200 yards fired by Mr. C. W. Rowland of Boulder, Colorado on May 16, 1901 as being the World's Record for accuracy. Other rifles and ammunition which have made records at longer distances have never equaled this at 200 yards, and thus we think that this target can be properly regarded as The Record.

Mr. Rowland's target, which is reproduced here in the exact size from the original, was shot with a .32-40 breech-muzzle loading barrel made by H. M. Pope, in a Ballard action. It was shot from a machine rest, probably the Pope rest, in which the naked barrel is uniformly rested at the breech and close to the muzzle, the rifle being shot with its butt-stock on it, and the butt-plate being caught and braked by the hand after a short recoil travel. The charge was a lead alloy bullet of unknown weight (probably 180 to 200 grains) lubricated with Leopold's lubricant (same as the present Ideal Lubricant), and propelled by a charge of Hazards FG black powder. The bullet was loaded from the muzzle in the usual Pope manner, and the case filled with powder inserted from the breech. Mr. Rowland has noted the weather as “No wind,” and “Sprinkling;” conditions most favorable for black powder.

Mr. Rowland's target has been measured very carefully. There is no way to measure it with a great degree of accuracy that I know of, so I will outline the manner in which it was measured. We made this assumption: in the target above the record target there is one distinct bullet hole. The assumption is that this shot displaced the same amount of paper as the shots in the record target. This seems to be a safe assumption as presumably the rifle, paper and bullet were the same.

We measured this single hole quite carefully”€�optically under 4X magnification. The average diameter of this hole is .245-inch. Then we carefully measured the extreme spread of the record group”€�that is the extreme of the displaced paper. This figure is .970-inch. Subtracting the diameter of a single bullet hole (.245” displaced paper) gives an extreme spread, center to center, of .725-inch for the Rowland record group.

[Win94ae]

I get just as good groups as with jacketed bullets.
262499


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTxEIxbGgOc

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Nah! my 30.06 with 284311 (208gns) with 12x Leupold scope printed this 10 shot. Mind, I fired over 600 rounds to record 2 x 10 shot sub MOA groups on the same day!
Sized to 0.310, in neck turned brass with 31.5gns 3031.

https://i.imgur.com/SabiU6Dl.jpg

Now working with a 7x57mm that is showing promise.

https://i.imgur.com/LuRm5kSm.jpg

[Win94ae]

I get just as good groups as with jacketed bullets.
262499


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTxEIxbGgOc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IYea9cHkYQ

That was the extent of my load development.

It really isn't any different than jacketed bullets.

[tomme boy]

You have to have a gun capable of it first. Then the person has to be capable of it. Then how much time and effort you want to put into it.

Not everyone can do this.

[444ttd]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

[Stephen Cohen]

As others have said, the gun and shooter must be capable first. I doubt I could fire a 10 shot group under and inch these days if ever. I only fire 3 shot groups as I am testing ammo not me or the gun, I have shot many sub 1'' groups with my 458wm and 357 max rifle, I also think it depends on how you measure the groups, if centre to centre then 1'' or less 3 shot groups are not overly difficult, but if you measure outside to outside as I do then it is more difficult, even more so for 10 shot groups. Regards Stephen

[charlie b]

Like others said, if your rifle is capable of shooting jacketed bullets at sub MOA then it should be able to shoot a cast bullet at sub MOA.

BUT...the cast bullets must be made to the same standard. I reject a lot of cast bullets due to minor imperfections (especially in the base) and sort by weight in 0.1gn batches. It is also critical that the dia of the bullet fits the bore properly. If shooting with conventional lube the type of lube can matter, especially if you try to push the velocity.

I can routinely get 1.5MOA with my .308 and can get under 1MOA with some loads (usually 5 round groups, 200 and 300yd). This rifle is touchy with jacketed bullet loads as well so this level of accuracy is consistent with jacketed loads.

So, if you have a rifle that is a tack driver with jacketed, try cast in it. You might be surprised.

FWIW, if you want to try cast but not invest in the equipment yet...go to Montana Bullet Works. They make superb bullets from common molds. Not cheap, but, well made and a good way to see if they will perform in your rifle. That was what I did before diving into the deep end :)

[Three44s]

Sure you can get sub MOA out of cast. Not every gun, not every shooter, not every cartridge, not every mold.

It takes more effort than jacketed, however ..... since it takes more effort and luck .... when it does happen it is without a doubt more rewarding!

Three44s

[Harter66]

I had a 222 that I shot 5 shot groups of 5 different factory brands , Horn , RP , FC , Win , and PPU with 50 gr SP getting usually 4 touching in a 3 dia hole an one off by itself 1-3 dia out . With minimal work up from my usual cull sort and sizing I shot the same with a 62 gr cast in the heart of 62 gr jacketed speeds . 4 all clustered together one off by itself being a rebel .....

I had a 358 Win shooting 35-250 at 2100 fps had it not been for the lost check going wild 1.5 inches I'd have shot a .900 5 shot group several times one weekend .

Had and sks that shot about 12" at 50 with wolf steel case 123 gr
Loaded it with a paper patched cast 200 gr one off spitzer and after everything settled down , shot regular 3×5" 100 yd groups . These weren't really impressive groups by any stretch of imagination but since a fired would take a .323 dia 323-175 Lee and chamber it with it's .318 nose at maximum mag length and had a measured barrel at .305x.3165 I felt pretty good about it .

I've shot lots of cast "book" loads that hovered inside 1" grids and a few loads that were full jacketed potential well inside an inch .

I can't post pictures because I've exceeded my allowed storage and what's left is story critical ....... I've lost many also .

Little groups only count if you can do them again .

[Larry Gibson]

Certainly one can shoot moa or sub moa 3 or 5 shot groups with a capable rifle/shooter/ammo combination. Shoot enough "groups" and it will happen. The trick is to shoot those groups consistently...….

As to what size "groups"?

When you were back in the 7th grade and you looked at that cute young gal sitting across the aisle next to you and she smiled......a 3 shot group has all the promise of that smile.....

A few years later slow dancing with that same girl at a school dance and she rubs up to you and smiles again when the teachers aren't looking......a 5 shot group has just about the same promise...….

Now a few years later you're in college and she walks up to you after class and says..."lets go get a beer and then go to your place"...…...that's the promise of a 10 shot group...….

[Win94ae]

https://youtu.be/5IYea9cHkYQ?t=164

Since 3 shot groups only make girls smile... The second ladder test, shots 2-8 is a 7 shot group; all the charge weights are different with .4grains increments, which is a 2.8grain difference, yet the group is just over 1MOA.

That chick is now your wife.

This isn't rocket science.

[Gtek]

As a younger man I was truly blessed with place and timing to get involved with a group of elderly gentleman shooters. They had these single shots that looked like they weighed fifteen pounds or more, big fat octagon barrels, engraving, big horned butt plates and sticks with balls on them when they stood to shoot. After becoming involved I learned what those rifles were and how much they truly cost, oh my! But the other things I noticed were most if not all had these hand crafted personalized items. The custom wooden boxes made, open the top, pop up stands that held these rifles that were made of Oak and Cherry and such with beautiful grains and finish . Drawers with custom slides that held their handmade boolits, the custom tools fabricated to breech seat these projectiles, never ending with the cool little things they made and used. Then to watch them shoot, and they let me hold and shoot those beautiful rifles. I remember several who were absolutely miffed if they shot a 244-246/250, something must be off they would say and then off into a deep discussion of where their process had evolved and this is not acceptable. Many, many witnessed 10 shot groups lay a quarter over at a 100, and a fifty cent piece at two, 32 Miller, 32-40, 38-55 and a few of who knows what, they made the brass and would not tell you. It was magical for me to be accepted and shown this now seemingly lost art for which I am eternally grateful for the experience. I know they are all hanging out at the big range in the the sky at this point and having a mentor/mentors was an absolute bonus. You state, "I love small groups with my reloads and wanted to know is it possible to get sub MOA groups with cast bullets?". I would answer YES, but like many things no free lunch here. Lots of research, lots of time, some money, and you have to love it and want it! Having found this site you have wandered into another wonderful group of gentleman shooters who love it and will/have shared their experiences and knowledge freely for you if you really want it. How bad, good and what will be is between you and that guy in the mirror.

[DonHowe]

In ASSRA single shot competition the record group for 5 shots benchrest @ 200yds is 0.367".
The 200 yd score targets have a 1.5" center (25) ring. While some matches are re-entry, Dale Reynolds fired TWO targets in the same relay, both of which scored 250 (perfect targets). That means 3/4 MOA or less.
ASSRA requires single shot single shot rifles like those made between the Civil War and WWI. Bullets must be plain base, most are breech seated.
No bolt actions are allowed. The rifles have 2 pc stocks.

[Wolfdog91]

Hmmm that's everyone one ! This gives me hope. I don't mind working on somthing as l9ng as it dosent get super expensive and since I'm planning on casting for my 5.56 and I have more brass than o know what to do with I think after I get my molds and other odds and ends this will be pretty enjoyable!

[Wolfdog91]

As a younger man I was truly blessed with place and timing to get involved with a group of elderly gentleman shooters. They had these single shots that looked like they weighed fifteen pounds or more, big fat octagon barrels, engraving, big horned butt plates and sticks with balls on them when they stood to shoot. After becoming involved I learned what those rifles were and how much they truly cost, oh my! But the other things I noticed were most if not all had these hand crafted personalized items. The custom wooden boxes made, open the top, pop up stands that held these rifles that were made of Oak and Cherry and such with beautiful grains and finish . Drawers with custom slides that held their handmade boolits, the custom tools fabricated to breech seat these projectiles, never ending with the cool little things they made and used. Then to watch them shoot, and they let me hold and shoot those beautiful rifles. I remember several who were absolutely miffed if they shot a 244-246/250, something must be off they would say and then off into a deep discussion of where their process had evolved and this is not acceptable. Many, many witnessed 10 shot groups lay a quarter over at a 100, and a fifty cent piece at two, 32 Miller, 32-40, 38-55 and a few of who knows what, they made the brass and would not tell you. It was magical for me to be accepted and shown this now seemingly lost art for which I am eternally grateful for the experience. I know they are all hanging out at the big range in the the sky at this point and having a mentor/mentors was an absolute bonus. You state, "I love small groups with my reloads and wanted to know is it possible to get sub MOA groups with cast bullets?". I would answer YES, but like many things no free lunch here. Lots of research, lots of time, some money, and you have to love it and want it! Having found this site you have wandered into another wonderful group of gentleman shooters who love it and will/have shared their experiences and knowledge freely for you if you really want it. How bad, good and what will be is between you and that guy in the mirror.
You had some I wish I had honestly! Being around people who have that much of a passion about stuff has always been somthing ive loved but sadly its getting harder and harder to find people like that. Now a days its alway juat whats good enough or what will work.

[Wolfdog91]

Certainly one can shoot moa or sub moa 3 or 5 shot groups with a capable rifle/shooter/ammo combination. Shoot enough "groups" and it will happen. The trick is to shoot those groups consistently...….

As to what size "groups"?

When you were back in the 7th grade and you looked at that cute young gal sitting across the aisle next to you and she smiled......a 3 shot group has all the promise of that smile.....

A few years later slow dancing with that same girl at a school dance and she rubs up to you and smiles again when the teachers aren't looking......a 5 shot group has just about the same promise...….

Now a few years later you're in college and she walks up to you after class and says..."lets go get a beer and then go to your place"...…...that's the promise of a 10 shot group...….
I actually really like the way you explained that. I'm no where near a perfect **** but I know my rifle I'm planning on casting for can certainly shoot sub MOA with a decent load.
262538

But again as weird as it sounds as long as it's doable I don't mind the work to get these groups. It's hard to explain but there's somthing in the idea of taking just lead and melting it,mixing alloys,smelting,pouring ingots, making the boolits,lubing ,sizing and relaoding them and getting competent enough at it that I can get these groups I want is so appealing to me for some reason.

[Gtek]

5.56 in a gas gun?

[woodbutcher]

:?: This may be a case of super faulty memory.I seem to remember reading about a superb group shot back in the maybe mid 1880s that was 8 1/2" at 1000 yds for ten shots.I might have read about it here,but don`t remember.Any help to correct my memory would be most welcome.The group was shot somewhere on the East coast.I think.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[kens]

my experience with cast rifle loads is that tight groups are easy, provided you keep velocity down.
Now most everybody, including me, is a speed freak wanting to go high velocity.
That is the rub for cast loads,; as velocity goes upward, the difficulty to hold those same tight groups goes upward also
So, to get tight groups for me is easy as long as I keep velocity down.

[rockrat]

Have a 338 win mag, that put 3 shots in under 1/2". I quit load development then. Didn't shoot a 5 shot group as I was a bit nervous then and knew I would ruin a nice group if I continued shooting. IIRC, it was a 245gr boolit from a mould that Tom made for me.

[dtknowles]

So I'm curious,after watching a ton of videos on cast bullets I don't think I've seen any that shiw cast bullets grouping better than many 1.5" at 100yd. Now I could be totally wrong but seems to be the common deal and fist sized groups are whats expected. Now I'm no bench rest shooter but I love small groups with my relaods and wanted to know is it possible to get sub MOA groups with cast bullets ? It's it possible with a bit of extra work or is it just not there ? Are certain calibers in cast more in inherently accurate ?

People who shoot small groups using cast bullets are not often interested in YouTube or other video sites. Their fame comes from places like "The Fowling Shot.

262542

The comps happen many times each year and always a bunch of under 1 moa groups.

Tim

[Stephen Cohen]

Certainly one can shoot moa or sub moa 3 or 5 shot groups with a capable rifle/shooter/ammo combination. Shoot enough "groups" and it will happen. The trick is to shoot those groups consistently...….

As to what size "groups"?

When you were back in the 7th grade and you looked at that cute young gal sitting across the aisle next to you and she smiled......a 3 shot group has all the promise of that smile.....

A few years later slow dancing with that same girl at a school dance and she rubs up to you and smiles again when the teachers aren't looking......a 5 shot group has just about the same promise...….

Now a few years later you're in college and she walks up to you after class and says..."lets go get a beer and then go to your place"...…...that's the promise of a 10 shot group...….

You Sir are a dead set romantic. Still smiling. Regards Stephen

[charlie b]

If interested in specific loads and calibers you can look at some of these match results

https://castbulletassoc.org/match-results

[waksupi]

My .358 Win will shoot under an inch. I can't stand one little hole though, so purposely start nibbling the edges of the hole with each shot. Best I got was around 3/4", but blame eyesight and holding on that. If it were machine mounted, it would go in under a half inch all day, using full power loads.



https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipP2xRXlMpi-j73TBAUqyjHxtnMSE3VOTxmbAbm3

[rking22]

For the op, if you are considering starting with a fast twist 5.56 I think you may become frustrated before the learning is done. Note that most people are showing success with larger calibers and slower twist rates. Not saying it can’t be done, just that starting with a small bore is going to engineering school before finishing Jr High.
I hate shooting from the bench and chasing mechanical accuracy, preferring to test the me+rifle system. That said I have approached moa with a 7.62x39, Ruger NO1 not SKS! My Kimber Classic 308 does just about the same 1.25 or so with cast that it does with jacked hunting bullets, only at 2000fps instead of 2750. Bigger bullets cast easier and weight variation is a smaller percentage of the total.

[mattw]

Definitely doable. My daughter is learning my bench rifles and has shot 2 groups with cast that were tight 1 hole and a called flier. She will pull together a 5 shot tight one hole soon. 221 fireball, McGowan bull bull barrel, 40XBR, 1.5 ounce trigger and Leopold 8x32. She did not expect bench guns to be such a challenge, but she is getting there. I had never shot cast in my bench guns and she wanted to try it out, so made and sorted several hundred 60 grain NOE's and started load work up.

[lar45]

http://www.lsstuff.com/45-45-10/wc820-01.jpg
Plain jain Mauser 30-06 with 165 Ranch Dog Plain Base and some WC820


http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/cblue/2500-309-01.jpg
30-06 XCB with 14 twist Shillen 160gn XCB bullet with GC sized .309 lubed with 2500+
The group includes the first shot flier from a cold barrel.


http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/cblue/cblue-3006xcb-02.jpg
30-06 XCB with 14 twist Shillen 160gn XCB bullet with GC lubed with Carnauba Blue.
The group includes the first shot flier from a cold barrel.


http://www.lsstuff.com/pics/93x57/noe-02.jpg
9.3x57 Mauser with NOE cast bullet. Didn't quite make the 1" mark, but was close.
very little load developement on this one as someone was kind enough to send me some boolits to see if I like it before buying the mold...

[mehavey]

See
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218995-3-4-quot-group-311299-in-30-06!&p=2466518&viewfull=1#post2466518
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6645327&postcount=8

Run of the mill stuff.
The realpros are 1/4 MOA

[charlie b]

Here are some more. First one at 200 rest at 100, various loads. Same rifle. Second one was sighting in my plinking load (subsonic). Last two were conventional lube. Others were powder coated.

262571262572262573262574262575262576

[Winger Ed.]

? It's it possible with a bit of extra work or is it just not there ?

Tiny little groups are quite reachable.
With cast, or with anything else, it's like getting good grades in school---- ya gotta do your homework.

[Gtek]

Sorry for the misdirect of thread but it just crossed my bow. Do you think some people think us odd that "WE" draw little circles and numbers on the paper that we made holes in and have notebooks of these filled with them?

[MT Gianni]

Similar to the do I sort brass or bullets questions, I think. Look at it like dunking a basketball. Because I cannot do it, it would be easy to assume it can't be done. Yet visual proof tells me it can. It also has some come out saying it is impossible or they could dunk at age 65 and 5'6".

[mehavey]

"...people think us odd that "WE" draw little circles and numbers on the
paper that we made holes in and have notebooks of these filled with them ? "
Y'all have seen this... right ? :coffee:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBA2sDwzfqA

[rking22]

Finally, a YouTube worth watching! Made me smile.

[Larry Gibson]

So I'm curious,after watching a ton of videos on cast bullets I don't think I've seen any that shiw cast bullets grouping better than many 1.5" at 100yd. Now I could be totally wrong but seems to be the common deal and fist sized groups are whats expected. Now I'm no bench rest shooter but I love small groups with my relaods and wanted to know is it possible to get sub MOA groups with cast bullets ? It's it possible with a bit of extra work or is it just not there ? Are certain calibers in cast more in inherently accurate ?

The OP asks several questions. The primary question being; "is sub MOA possible with cast?"

So OP, let's answer your questions.

Yes, sub moa is possible. However, you refer to "groups" at 100 yards. You do not (as with most of these type of discussion) tell us how many shots are in that groups you ask about; 3 shots, 5 shots or 10 shots? Thus not defining the level of "accuracy" (precision) you are simply asking about "sub MOA" . Not being facetious, but every "one shot group" is sub moa...….see what I mean? A definition of sub MOA group "accuracy", by the size of the group, really needs to be quantified with the number of shots required to make that "group".

Next you state and ask; "Now I'm no bench rest shooter but I love small groups with my reloads and wanted to know is it possible to get sub MOA groups with cast bullets ?"

T be honest with you not being a "bench rest shooter" the odds are very slim that you have the rifle, the casting skill, the reloading skill or the shooting skill to consistently shoot "sub MOA with cast". Yes, you may occasionally shoot sub moa with 3 shot groups, and even with one or two 5 shot groups being "sub MOA". With average or even good casting, loading and shooting skills with a "regular rifle, commercial or milsurp just how many and how often you ever fire any of those sub MOA groups will depend on how many groups you shoot. The size of the groups will be based on random selection and dispersion of the shots within the actual grouping capability (precision capability) of the load, the rifle and you, the shooter.


"Is it possible with a bit of extra work or is it just not there ?"

Yes, it is "possible". However, the odds are slim against being able to do it consistently and "on demand" unless you do become "a bench rest shooter" and invest the time, money and energy into it.

And lastly you ask; "Are certain calibers in cast more in inherently accurate ?"

The answer, given commercial cartridges in commercial rifles, to that will be debated and never answered. With custom rifles and cartridges built to shoot smaller groups with cast bullets there are numerous cartridges that are claimed to be "the most accurate". As you look at numerous match results understand that because someone wins a match(s) or championship many think if they only buy a rifle like his, a mould like his and use his load then they too will consistently shoot small groups like he does. While good rifles, a good cartridge, good moulds and good loads are going to be essential to consistently shooting "sub MOA" groups you will not buy your way to that. That is why you see 1.5" or "fist sized" cast bullet groups accepted as "the norm".

As I said; unless you do become "a bench rest shooter" and invest the time, money and energy into it" the odds are slim. Even then, should you chase "sub MOA" accuracy, you will find that goal to be an elusive, alluring and demanding quest...…..

[DonHowe]

The thing about shooting tiny groups is well, everything. Once you have an sub-moa rifle you have just begun. You can buy the equipment but you can't buy tiny groups. That takes attention to detail in crafting your ammunition and especially in casting and prepping good bullets that fit properly. But then it takes a lot of time at the bench learning good bench and shooting technique. One writer put it this way, "The name of the game is the same, your technique being as nearly the same as possible for each and every shot. But then, especially with the lower velocity of most cast boolit loads, there is learning to read the wind. All this matters.
It may seem like "if it is that complicated why bother?" Thing is, even if all one does is plink, to consistently hit what is shot at all these things are happening (except reading wind at short range). We just normally don't give them a thought unless we set a demanding goal or if shooting competitively and really want to improve our performance.
If you give yourself permission to fail, don't obsess over it but try to learn from it this process is not stressful. Don't compare your groups on target to anyone else, only to you last one. For me it is a labor of love, deeply satisfying.

By the time I got around to benchrest single shot matches and really working on technique I had lost my 20/20 right eye and was learning to shoot left handed with a 20/200 eye. Obviously I never won a match ( my best score was a 245/250 @ 200yds) but attention to details enabled me to never finish in last place, or even close. I never rubbed that in but some friends did on occasion.

[dtknowles]

I was frustrated by the rarity of me shooting sub moa groups. None of the gun I owned were known tack drivers but I was nagged by the though that I might be the problem not the guns or ammo.

I bought a used bench rest rifle in 6mm ppc and a nice front rest and rear bag. Pretty quickly I was shooting quarter moa groups, not every group but nothing over half moa. I would not win any comps but at least I knew that I was not the problem but instead it was either the guns or the ammo. I bought a second used bench rest gun. This one was in 30 BR Long. It does not shoot my cast bullets into less than one moa groups very often. I know the problem is the ammo and really it is the bullets as it will shoot under one moa all the time with j words.

I you are not already shooting tiny groups then don't expect to shoot your cast bullets into tiny groups.

Tim

[Green Lizzard]

Lots and lots of lucky 3 shot "wallet" groups, quite a few lucky 5 shot groups, but from what I've seen over the last fifty years, not to many lucky 10 shot groups

Bill

[DonHowe]

What a 10 shot group tells you is how good you are at firing 10 consecutive shots identically in a given set of conditions. I AM NOT disputing Larry Gibson. Just sayin you can't take the shooter out of the equation and the more consecutive shots fired the more chances for lapse of concentration.
I agree a 3 shot group is not much of an indicator UNLESS a shooter can produce the same size 3 shot group any time of day on any range under favorable conditions.

[35remington]

Ever notice when someone shows a small group it is pretty much never accompanied by any number of similar sized groups shot on the same piece of paper?

There is a reason for that.

[kokomokid]

Been fire forming some 308 Lapua brass to 308 imp with cast bullets and 17 grain 2400 powder. Used Lee dipper so it was +/- 17 grain. Slow twist Krieger bbl on a Stiller action and had several 5 shot groups below .5" but mostly four shot cluster with one out making 1" plus or minus group. Shot off joystick rest and 42x scope. Boolits were 175 grain Saeco copy by Accurate.

[robg]

my wife laminated my best groups .i think 5 shot groups more representative than 3.ive shot 1 moa groups and know my equipment can do it all the time but,big but,im the weak link .its fun trying .

[bobthenailer]

Yes ! have done it many times with cast bullets in rifles & RPM SS pistol in 357 and 30/20

[Iowa Fox]

Its doable but your going to work at it hard and spend some money. Factory guns aaren't going to get you there consistantly. Anymore at my age 1 1/2 to 2" is good enough for me. I'm not going to spend anymore time or money for better.

[Krag1902]

I have five Krag sporters, issue barrels and commercial receiver sights. I shoot about 400 five shot groups a summer through them 16 groups per range trip). Last summer I shot four groups under an inch. its unusual, but it can and does happen. My guns average maybe 1.5-1.75 inch. But to get back to the question - yes, it is possible.

[quilbilly]

Every barrel has a personality when it comes to cast. I have three rifle that shoot sub-moa groups with regularity, a 308, 223, and a 7mm TCU carbine. There are others that shoot MOA once and a while. The 308 did it right out of the box on the first day after purchase. The 223 took almost a year testing with several powders and three different molds but now shoots right with jacketed accuracy wise. On the other hand, my old 6mm Rem hates cast so now only gets fed jacketed for sub-moa groups but my wife's 243 loves cast. You never know but the journey is great fun.

[444ttd]

i was trying to sight my 9.3x57 in. on the bottom left is an average 5 shot group at 100 yards(280gr fn gc and 4895). the three shots are cloverleafed, while the other 2 are not. it goes roughly 1 1/4" but if i really really really try, it will go sub minute. but i don't "try" anymore. 3" group at 100 yards(3 - 5 shots) is fine for me. 2" is a good group, while 1"+/- group makes me ecstatic. sub minute group ;-):kidding:makes me faint!!!!!!!

i do not do a competitive shooting/benchrest match, never have, never will. i can do a .1 - .2" at 100 yards(10 shots/bench) with my 20 vartarg/223/22-250ai. BUT.... i measure each case by weight, case length, inside neck reaming, measure the powder, bullet weight......and on and on. it was fun but it got boring after while. every rifle(back then) could do a sub minute group (j-word 5 shots) any day of the week and twicet on sunday:lol:. but that got boring too. 8 years ago, i had a stroke and the right side of my body is only about 20% good. being a lefty, shooting didn't bother me. the flinching did!!!!! it took me about a year to not flinch. it took me another year to do a .1-.2" group.

7 or 8 years ago, i got into casting my own boolits. i like it so much that i got rid of all jacketed bullets except one(20vt and 34gr midway hp). the deer hate them but my shoulder likes'em. my fasted is the 30-40 krag with 165gr ranch dog that goes avg 1930fps. the slowest(rifle) is a 500 linebaugh with 450gr lfn gc and it goes avg 1235fps.

a sub minute cast boolit (5 or 10 shots/100 yards) is what we look for, but for many of us, it is unobtainable. a 3 shot group, yes it is obtainable. a 5 shot group should be obtainable(guy, rifle, cast boolits...). 10 shot group(s) can be obtainable(for a few guys/girls) but i and many others don't.

[444ttd]

i was trying to sight my 9.3x57 in. on the bottom left is an average 5 shot group at 100 yards(280gr fn gc and 4895). the three shots are cloverleafed, while the other 2 are not. it goes roughly 1 1/4" but if i really really really try, it will go sub minute. but i don't "try" anymore. 3" group at 100 yards(3 - 5 shots) is fine for me. 2" is a good group, while 1"+/- group makes me ecstatic. sub minute group ;-):kidding:makes me faint!!!!!!!

i do not do a competitive shooting/benchrest match, never have, never will. i can do a .1 - .2" at 100 yards(10 shots/bench) with my 20 vartarg/223/22-250ai. BUT.... i measure each case by weight, case length, inside neck reaming, measure the powder, bullet weight......and on and on. it was fun but it got boring after while. every rifle(back then) could do a sub minute group (j-word 5 shots) any day of the week and twicet on sunday:lol:. but that got boring too. 8 years ago, i had a stroke and the right side of my body is only about 20% good. being a lefty, shooting didn't bother me. the flinching did!!!!! it took me about a year to not flinch. it took me another year to do a .1-.2" group.

7 or 8 years ago, i got into casting my own boolits. i like it so much that i got rid of all jacketed bullets except one(20vt and 34gr midway hp). the deer hate them but my shoulder likes'em. my fasted is the 30-40 krag with 165gr ranch dog that goes avg 1930fps. the slowest(rifle) is a 500 linebaugh with 450gr lfn gc and it goes avg 1235fps.

a sub minute cast boolit (5 or 10 shots/100 yards) is what we look for, but for many of us, it is unobtainable. a 3 shot group, yes it is obtainable. a 5 shot group should be obtainable(guy, rifle, cast boolits...). 10 shot group(s) can be obtainable(for a few guys/girls) but i and many others don't.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

[444ttd]

this one should be right.........
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/attach/jpg.gif

[kokomokid]

I am quite happy with light load groups at 100yds but adding speed and distance is what really impresses me. When I look at groups Larry Gibson has shot at distance with the afterburner kicked on-- well it is having it all together.

[dverna]

Larry Gibson gave you the best insight IMHO.

BTW, starting with a 5.56 in cast is not a good place to be, and you can look forward to an immense level of frustration. I would suggest NOT even trying unless you are more of an experimenter and diddler than a shooter. Most of the guys here are slanted to enjoying the journey...casting and reloading. Sub MOA requires spending hours at both endeavors.

And, as mentioned, you still need to be a very good shooter to get to the level you wish.

Plan on spending 100+ hours to learn how to cast decent bullets. Most of us started with something simple like .38's or 45's. Shot them in pistols so accuracy was not critical and they are easy to cast. Walk before you run. Cast .224's are a nightmare.

My advice is buy a case of these: 55 Gr Hornady SP. I got mine for $420 for 6000. They will beat any cast bullet out of a 5.56. You will piss away $400 in molds, alloy, gas checks, and components to find a load that may shoot twice as poorly. ..if you are lucky.

Develop your shooting and reloading skills with them until you are consistently sub MOA. If you cannot do it with jacketed, you will never do it with cast.

If you want to start with cast in a rifle caliber, get one of the cheap bolt actions in .308 and start with that. My T/C Compass is MOA with jacketed so the gun is capable. The Ruger and Savage are also good. But set a realistic goal....2 MOA (5 shots) with cast is very good accuracy for anyone. Do NOT beat yourself up with the results others post.

Have fun. First decide if your love is shooting or casting/reloading/testing. You can tell, I would never reload or cast if I could buy at a good enough price...I am a shooter. Casting and reloading is means to an end for me...some shoot to reload and cast.

[Wolfdog91]

Ok so alot to take in from juat reading all the responses lol. So I'm seeing that alot of you guys are much more....detailed then me I
guess would be the proper wording. So mabye I should try to explain a little better what I want. And I hope I'm not coming across rude here by the way ! Really appricate eveyones responses! I can tell some of y'all have been doing this for a looking time.

Anyhow ,when I'm saying I want a sub MOA group and I like small groups I'm not say I want all my groups to be 100% 3-10round in a cloverleaf at 100yd. I mean id love that but honestly that level of precision is just a little beyond me currently I feel lol. Basically I want to be able to keep a 1" group at 100yd. I don't need bench rest precision but would really like somthing better shooting than store bought.

Now the gun in planning on using can do that already. I have two pet loads for it already with jacketed bullets that I know for a fact will group sub MOA if I do my part decently. Here A a group from re last time i took it out. Honestly wasn't my best shooting but with the load shining off of a bipod and a rear bad at 100yd it does this type of group pretty constantly ( which is an amazing thing for alot of people around here lol. Generally putting 3round okkn a coffee can at 100 with a 3-9 scope is considered the marks of a sniper in these parts lol )
262672
And I have had better groups but if have to dig around to find the targets. But again with the two loads I have worked up thus upper will do this pretty constantly. So I feel I'm somewhat cover on the have a decent shooting gun.

Now as far as why I'm picking a 5.56 gas gun to start cast with is well mainly because I have so much brass. I'd say a good 70%of my range pick up brass is Lake City 5.56 . Like I have a ton if it and would really like to be able to shoot more . Reloading with jacked bullets currently has my prices cut down pretty well for the quality I'm getting but when I did the math an say how my cast bullets I can roughly expect from a pound of lead it's even cheaper. Especially if I'm just loading some plinking ammo.

Now as far as it taking time and alot of fiddling to get to where I want ,I'm perfectly fine with that. I get bored of stuff pretty quick if it's too easy so if it's gonna cause me to pull a few hairs or read and ask a bunch if questions I'm actually fine with that, as odd as it my sound lol.

[Stephen Cohen]

If one has a gun that is only capable of a 6'' group and the shooter shoots a 6'' group, would we consider that load to be capable of sub inch groups. Regards Stephen

[M-Tecs]

If one has a gun that is only capable of a 6'' group and the shooter shoots a 6'' group, would we consider that load to be capable of sub inch groups. Regards Stephen

No...

[Larry Gibson]

Wolfdog91

Rifle make and model?

Do you know the twist?

Sight(s)?

[fcvan]

My first cast in an AR 15, a brand new build with a 1/9" twist, gave me a .75 5 shot group. Boolit was a Lyman 225-415 over a book load of IMR4227 chrono'd at 2250 fps. I will call that lucky. I did some work with that gun using a long eye relief 4X fixed and got the same results.

I have a Ruger Mini 14 that was spotty at 100 yards, after all it was built for 4 MOA. I had a buddy who was trained by Ruger to service the Mini 14. He suggested I re-torque the gas block, bingo, 1.5 MOA. This old Mini M180, so it has a 1/10" twist. It started out life as a parkerized SWAT entry weapon with a 14" barrel. When the original agency replaced it with AR 15s, they had to weld and pin a front sight/muzzle device to bring it to 16.1" to be legal. Standard being 18", the velocity is somewhat reduced with factory, not my cast loads. I mostly use the AR and Mini for banging steel and killing tin cans.

Some time ago, I picked up an NOE 225-62 RN plain based boolit, designed just for PC as fooling with those tiny gas check is tedious, making them even more so. It took some tweaking to get them to run in the AR and Mini due to pressure reduction without a gas check. Next time I cast I will harden the alloy a little more and water quench right out of the PC oven. However, I picked up an H&R Handi Rifle with a 1/12" twist with a heavy 24" barrel. The current loads shoot quite well at 2450 fps due to the longer barrel. That rifle has a long eye relief fixed 4x which places the glass just forward of the hammer. This is the tin can killer, and 1 MOA depends more on me than the load. My usual challenge is old shot shells at 100 yards.

1 MOA can be had with cast 223/5.56. However, I need to tweak my cast 308 W loads for an AR 10, M1A, and a bolt gun, just need the time and opportunity. Then, a 7.65 x 53 Argentine Mauser will be the next hurrah. Matching numbers, pristine bore, and has only seen 40 rounds of factory. It was purchased as surplus in the 1950s, unfired, and I was gifted this beauty. I always wanted an old Mauser just for cast, finally got one!

[Wolfdog91]

Wolfdog91

Rifle make and model?

Do you know the twist?

Sight(s)?

Daytona tactical 5.56 upper ,FMK polymer lower, 1:7 twist, Nikon 3-9x40 buck master on top with a generic bipod.
262776
Seems to handle the Hornady 75grain HPBT's I'm currently loading just fine

[charlie b]

If one has a gun that is only capable of a 6'' group and the shooter shoots a 6'' group, would we consider that load to be capable of sub inch groups. Regards Stephen

No. It does mean the shooter might be capable of sub inch groups ;)

[glockky]

These are all 5 shot groups at 100yds out of my 357 maximum.
https://i.imgur.com/g5ReFKE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FBLhNuj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ScC3Aam.jpg

[Tripplebeards]

Two out of three rifles I’ve tried Cast in since I started casting three years ago have have shot MOA to sub MOA. The third one was stubborn and the best I could get were 1.1 inch groups. I’m sure I could’ve did better if I changed powders,boolits,and kept trying.

Here’s my tightest group to date at 100 yards with cast. I don’t use this load anymore and switched over to a softer 7.8bh alloy that shoots .8” groups at 1600 FPS. I switch scopes on the gun last year and sighted it in with the softer alloy. I actually shot a tighter group with them than the 80/20 below but never took a picture or measured it.

https://i.imgur.com/eCYnRPB.jpg


This is the first try with my 336 lever action chambered in 35 Rem a couple weeks ago with a 5 pound trigger at 100 yards. The top group was MOA. I lighten the trigger to 2 1/4 pounds I’m going to retest that load and I bet it tightens them up a little bit better.

https://i.imgur.com/uv6NGaO.jpg

And here is was first try at cast in my long gone 450 BM using 300 grain lee boolits at 2100 FPS.

https://i.imgur.com/Sa8qJtS.jpg

I’ve learned that the gun needs to be able to shoot MOA or better to begin with with jacketed bullets, to have consistent/even crimp pressure, and to weigh my boolits within one grain and separate.

[popper]

Wolfdog, yes moa is possible with cast, probably NOT with 223 at any higher fps. Decent accuracy yes, dependable accuracy, probably not. You don't have the QA equipment to make or load those little 55 grainers to be accurate. You can have fun with 223 and cast, just don't expect too much. Try 22lr @ 100 for a while and you will understand. Now 30 cal and up, yes, not too much work.

[Larry Gibson]

Daytona tactical 5.56 upper ,FMK polymer lower, 1:7 twist, Nikon 3-9x40 buck master on top with a generic bipod.
262776
Seems to handle the Hornady 75grain HPBT's I'm currently loading just fine

There are numerous threads on this forum detailing the trials and tribulations of those attempting any kind of usable accuracy, let alone sub-moa, with ARs and other fast twist rifles such as yours. It may be possible with 22LR ballistics but if you expect a sub-moa cast bullet load that functions the action.....good luck.

I would suggest that instead of investing time, money and a lot of frustration you spend the money on quality jacketed bullets and then enjoy the time with good shooting. If you really want to shoot cast bullets at sub-moa then numerous suggestions as to a proper cartridge and rifle to do it with have been made.

Not trying to hard nose you but just being honest with you. If it could be done with ARs we'd all be doing it...…...

[charlie b]

No, not all my groups are sub MOA :)

My first day back at the range after two months off. This was a bad day for me. I just had a hard time getting myself back in the groove. Targets fired from left to right. Left upper, left lower, etc.

I would try to say the bad groups were OK as 5 round and 'blew up' when I fired the other 5 (or 6 or 7). But, that would be lying :) Several I had a bad second or third round so even as 5rnd groups they were over 1".

I could also blame the 8-12mph wind, but, that wasn't it either. I watched myself pull shots, shoot before I was settled, bad breathing, bad trigger pulls. Just not a good day. The good thing is the new bullet showed some potential.

All of these except for one target are Lee 180gn powder coated. All but one are Varget at about 1850fps. The second from the left top row was IMR 4198 at about 1980fps (it is kind of my baseline load for this bullet). The bottom row second from left were my Accurate 311-210E bullets. First time out with them. Also Varget, about 1780fps.

PS there was some sight adjustments made from target to target.

PPS the top, third from left was 12 rounds.

PPPs Savage model 12, .308Win, 1:10 twist, 26" barrel.

262820

[Larry Gibson]

But Charlie....that ain't no 1/7" twist AR 223...…..

[charlie b]

Larry, no it ain't :)

I have a 1:9 .223 bolt, but, it gets 77gn SMK's so I can shoot below 1/2MOA on most days :) If I want a load for the family I get the bulk 55gn fmj's. They are almost as cheap as the lead alloy I buy.

I've only been casting seriously for rifles for the last year. Cast many thousand pistol and ML bullets in past decades. Still would not try to cast for an AR unless I planned on it being a 'manual' action, or, I just wanted to throw bullets down range, like a lot of guys around here do with their ARs. One of these days I might try casting for my Garand, but, adding in a gas action restricts the parameters, making load development tougher. Just like most in here are saying.

IMHO, cast in rifles really, really shines with reduced velocity loads, and heavy for caliber loads.

[444ttd]

jeez, you only hit the red part about 4 times!!!!


those are sub deer loads, i use them.

[MT Chambers]

One shortcut to moa with cast is to get a .30 br. with a custom barrel, Jewel trigger, and a few Eagan molds. In CBA benchrest comp. this is the ticket.

[kokomokid]

One shortcut to moa with cast is to get a .30 br. with a custom barrel, Jewel trigger, and a few Eagan molds. In CBA benchrest comp. this is the ticket.

I can get Eagan copies but original nose pours are a bit rare here.

[charlie b]

jeez, you only hit the red part about 4 times!!!!


those are sub deer loads, i use them.

Yep, chasing the red spot is next for these. After I get a load I like then it is red dot time, and compiling a DOPE table.

262891

If I hunted I'd use them as is :)


One shortcut to moa with cast is to get a .30 br. with a custom barrel, Jewel trigger, and a few Eagan molds. In CBA benchrest comp. this is the ticket.

The Accurate 311-210E bullet used above is the Eagan design.

[Tripplebeards]

I went out today with my Marlin 336 after I lightened the trigger from 5 pounds to 2 1/4 and use the same 40 g of varget with my cast hollowpoint group buy boolit. Heres the first three rounds I shot out my gun today at 100 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/uVbAZ73.jpg

Goes to show you a lighter trigger shrinks groups.

I also tried H4895. I only had enough powder for three rounds as I was basically out. I knew the pressure was similar to the 40 grain Varget loading so I rolled the dice and loaded three up at max j word book load...

100 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/yby2coi.jpg

[waksupi]

Ten shot groups, or it didn't happen! [smilie=l:

[Shuz]

I settle for 5 shot groups.

[444ttd]

1 shot group!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tripplebeards]

Lol... On my property I can’t get three shots at a deer if I tried...because it’s dead with the first shot. Three shot groups are good enough for this kid to see if I have a load worth using. I guess if I was a bench rest target shooter and I had a $20,000 custom rifle I’d worry about 20 shot groups to brag about. I do shoot a wheel gun full at a time to check my POA. :Fire:

[robg]

308 and 45-70 are relativly easy to find a cast load for .357mag in a rifle takes a bit more effort. now 223 is frustrating to say the least ,ive put that to one side before i throw my toys out of the pram.

[dverna]

Lol... On my property I can’t get three shots at a deer if I tried...because it’s dead with the first shot. Three shot groups are good enough for this kid to see if I have a load worth using. I guess if I was a bench rest target shooter and I had a $20,000 custom rifle I’d worry about 20 shot groups to brag about. I do shoot a wheel gun full at a time to check my POA. :Fire:

A three shot group will demonstrate if you have a poor load. It might indicate if you have a good load.

BTW, think about why all the MOA "guarantees" are based on three shot groups. It is easy to get a MOA 3 shot group if you shoot enough groups.

[M-Tecs]

Agreed that the standard production rifles with accuracy guarantees are based on 3 shot groups.

When you start moving up the scale some use 5 shot groups and the groups are 1/2 MOA or 1/4 MOA.

https://www.lesbaer.com/website/ar223.html

they perform like no other AR on the planet - in fact, all models are guaranteed to shoot 1/2" MOA groups! Included with each gun is a target with two five-shot groups shot at 100 yards.

All Cooper rifles up to .338 caliber depart the factory with a half-minute accuracy guarantee but I believe that is a 3 shoot group.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek017/

1/4 MOA Accuracy Guaranteed by Builder Clay Spencer it's a 3 shoot group and custom.

[MT Chambers]

I feel that when starting out, try dif. boolits until you find the most accurate, then work on dif. powders/primers. Some guns/barrels won't shoot a certain boolit no matter what, but it may excel in another barrel. So nail down the boolit first!!!

[Shopdog]

You have to have a gun capable of it first. Then the person has to be capable of it. Then how much time and effort you want to put into it.

Not everyone can do this.

This.... it takes dogged attention to details that honestly,most just aren't willing to invest in. Just finding the time for practice is daunting enough and unless you are born with some kind of mistic powers,practice is still the only way to get to Carnegie Hall...... think,shooting everyday.

[Tripplebeards]

A three shot group will demonstrate if you have a poor load. It might indicate if you have a good load.

BTW, think about why all the MOA "guarantees" are based on three shot groups. It is easy to get a MOA 3 shot group if you shoot enough groups.


I only tested three rounds with that load with a 5 pound trigger and only tested three more with the 2 1/4 pound trigger. Five pound trigger shot MOA and then I adjusted the 2 1/4 trigger measured .256”. Guess I got lucky two times in a row? It’s not the gun that can’t shoot MOA in most cases...it’s the person behind it.

[Green Frog]

After reading this thread, it should be obvious to you that with a good cast bullet bench gun, well cast bullets, and a good rest, you should be able to easily achieve sub MOA accuracy, or you are doing something wrong. Note you need a bullet and gun proper for the job... just because a gun is accurate with jacketed bullets doesn't make it a good cast bullet gun. Time to read a bunch over on the ASSRA.com and CBA forums, and pay attention to what they discuss. Those guys can be very serious about the shooting you propose.

Froggie

[Billwnr]

One shortcut to moa with cast is to get a .30 br. with a custom barrel, Jewel trigger, and a few Eagan molds. In CBA benchrest comp. this is the ticket.

I have a .30BR but shoot bullets out of an NEI 4 cavity mould. I've got a .280something at 100 yards and a .527 at 200 yards with 5 shot groups. Mine were shot in registered matches. The 200 yard group was the hard one to get. I have other small 100 yard groups.

[Blackknight]

I used to shoot military bolt action matches at the red castle gun club at Tulsa,OK. One of the shooters was shooting a Swedish rifle that the barrel had been set back to shoot varmit bullets. He was a retired Marine so he could shoot. The match called for ten shots on 4 targets, 2 targets for group size and two for score. The match director announced Hank had just shot a 1.3 inch target but I had inched him out with a 1.2 inch score. The rifle I was shooting was a 1903 A3 2 groove shooting a RCBS 180 gr. cast bullet over 16 gr. IMR 4759 with a dacron filler. The rifle was stock and I used Lyman Molly lube. I ran a patch down the barrel every five years or so.












t

[Ozark mike]

Well i look at it this way i wont keep a rifle that wont shoot at least 1 moa not all are cast shooters though a few are .but my eyes are starting to go so maybe not for long. Its a lot of development and time

[charlie b]

If you already cast then I would say it is just a little more development to dial in a cast bullet load. For my current cast bullet rifle it was actually less time and trouble than getting a good jacketed bullet load. The rifle is just a bit picky about jacketed bullets.

Cast bullets that I used came out excellent the first groups I fired in it. I wasn't sure about shooting cast so I bought some from Montana Bullet Works (they cast using the same molds you can buy). My very first shooting session had groups of 1.5MOA or less. Less than one box of bullets was needed to reach 1MOA regularly.

Even my cheap Lee bullet mold (309-180) produced 1.5MOA or less groups on a regular basis with my first loads. Once I became more careful when casting then 1MOA was more common.

[DonHowe]

This.... it takes dogged attention to details that honestly,most just aren't willing to invest in.

The truth of this is evident in the amount of pushback received when someone posts about being meticulous in cast, handling and loading cast bullets as well as being meticulous in case prep, etc.
There are also the contentions that sub moa is so easy anyone can do it or since I can't shoot sub moa with regularity then anyone who says they can is dishonest.

This may or may not be germaine but I just recalled hearing said, "I rarely miss in the field, I just can't shoot good on paper targets."

[Larry Gibson]

Daytona tactical 5.56 upper ,FMK polymer lower, 1:7 twist, Nikon 3-9x40 buck master on top with a generic bipod.
262776
Seems to handle the Hornady 75grain HPBT's I'm currently loading just fine

Remember guys, this is the rifle the OP wants to shoot moa with cast in (he says 3 - 10 shot groups).

[444ttd]

This may or may not be germaine but I just recalled hearing said, "I rarely miss in the field, I just can't shoot good on paper targets."

i know a guy who says and does just that, my brother. his left eye was blind since his birth. i don't know if that causes him not to shoot paper targets or what? but in the "field", he is devastating!!! he uses archery, muzzle-loading and rifles. he is like a terminator, expect when shooting paper targets. his accuracy measures in feet instead of inches. every year about the time deer season begins, he'll bring me the gun(s) and say "shoot them". so i do. the mossberg patriot synthetic in 270 with 130gr nosler bt and h4831sc will go 1/2 - 5/8" groups at 100 yards(5 shots/bench). then i gave it to friend to try and it was 3/4 - 1" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench). so i give it to my brother and with 100 cartridges and he hunts with that.

[waksupi]

i know a guy who says and does just that, my brother. his left eye was blind since his birth. i don't know if that causes him not to shoot paper targets or what? but in the "field", he is devastating!!! he uses archery, muzzle-loading and rifles. he is like a terminator, expect when shooting paper targets. his accuracy measures in feet instead of inches. every year about the time deer season begins, he'll bring me the gun(s) and say "shoot them". so i do. the mossberg patriot synthetic in 270 with 130gr nosler bt and h4831sc will go 1/2 - 5/8" groups at 100 yards(5 shots/bench). then i gave it to friend to try and it was 3/4 - 1" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench). so i give it to my brother and with 100 cartridges and he hunts with that.

I had a 7X57 that just plain wouldn't shoot from the bench, but was a tack driver off hand.

[charlie b]

I had a 7X57 that just plain wouldn't shoot from the bench, but was a tack driver off hand.

This is actually a common problem with some rifles. I suspect the problem is some kind of interaction between a rest, the stock and the barrel.

A possible solution if shooting from a rest of any type, the hand grips the fore end and then the hand sits on the rest. 94 Win and some muzzle loaders need this kind of treatment. I have found my Garand is better that way too.