Ruger Blackhawk Convertibles

[curioushooter]

Oh my. I've been so turned on lately to big bore stuff with my 44 SPL that I started to pay attention to Blackhawks.

This thing looks pretty neat to me (https://ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkConvertible/specSheets/0472.html).

It has what I like in a Blackhawk...the Bisley Grip, stainless, and a barrel greater than 5" long in a cartridge that is Indiana deer-legal. I'v never had any forty-five anything before, but if it handloads anything like 44 SPL, it should be great...probably better.

I wanted to know what people thought of the quality of these new Blackhawks. What are the throats like? Are the barrels good? Nasty constrictions? How do they shoot? Trigger quality?

I also wanted to know if the convertible feature works well. I don't have anything in 45 ACP so I would probably not bother with it. Are the barrels on these .452 or .454? Would these work with 45 Auto Rim?

[Larry Gibson]

Groove diameter on barrels should be .451 +/-.

A rimmed case is not needed with 45 ACP SA conversion cylinders as the cartridge headspaces on the case mouth and are ejected with the ejector rod. 45 AR cases have a very thick rim to take up the space of the 45 ACP rim + the half or full moon clip. If you want a rimmed cartridge then the 45 Cowboy (sometimes called the 45 American) that is used in SASS competition in SAAs with 45 ACP cylinders. Starline makes the cases. I've had several SAA's and Ruger SA's with the 45 ACP cylinders and they shoot 45 ACP loads just fine. Some, with the Ruger SA, want to use heavier loads with the 45 ACP cylinder and think a crimp is necessary. In my own opinion … why? For heavier loads use the 45 Colt cartridge in the 45 Colt cylinder.....

My Uberti Cimmaron "Evil Roy" has a 45 ACP conversion cylinder and I shoot a lot of my standard 45 ACP load through it [200 or 230 gr cast over 5 gr Bullseye] with excellent accuracy.

[onelight]

That is very nice , mine shoots great with both cylinders. And I am wishing it had the Bisley grip.

[shooting on a shoestring]

You asked so I’ll tell you my experience with a hardly used copy of that gun (SS Bisley 45acp/45Colt 5.5”).
First firing of the 45 Colt cylinder one chamber trapped the brass. The front of the chamber was about 0.002” larger than the back. Figured that was it was on consignment. 45acp cylinder ran fine.

B/C gap 0.009” either cylinder.
Groove diameter 0.452” some chatter marks but good enough barrel.
Forcing cone rough.
45acp cylinder throats 0.451”-0.452”.
45. Colt. cylinder throats 0.451”-0.453”.

To get happy, I recut the forcing cone (Brownells 11 degree kit), recut all chambers in 45 Colt cylinder with chamber finishing reamer, reamed throats in 45. Colt cylinder to 0.454” and honed throats and chambers with Flexihone. Left the 45acp cylinder alone. Shortened the sear engagement to minimal trigger creep, reshaped trigger return spring to lighten pull, shimmed the hammer to keep it from dragging the frame before hitting the firing pin, shimmed the rear sight to remove windage wobble.

Now it runs fine.

I don’t think I like the Bisley grip frame. This is my first. It’s a real big gun. Heavy too. Would be a good thing for heavy loading to near Casull power. It’s way to much gun for the little 45acp case.

I’ve had several recent Rugers and now come to look on them as revolver kits you have to finish yourself.

[Dale53]

I have been extremely happy with my SS Ruger Bisley .45 ACP/.45 Colt Convertible. When first purchased, it had .450" throats and leaded like crazy. I couldn't even chamber my .45 ACP cast bullet .452" loads in the ACP cylinder. However, after I reamed the cylinder throats to .4525", it shoots under an inch at 25 yards with both cylinders and a variety of loads. It's near perfect as a "Mild to Wild" Field piece. I must admit that most of what I shoot with it is the .45 ACP cylinder and 4.0 grs. of Bullseye or equivalent behind a 200 gr. H&G #68 SWC (my version is from a Mihec mold).

Altogether, a VERY satisfying combination!

FWIW
Dale53

[nawagner]

I love my New Blackhawk 45 Colt! As others mentioned, throats will likely need reamed to 0.4525". I smooth the action and adjust trigger springs on all my Blackhawks to get them to a trigger feel that is right for me. I also open the forcing cones to 11 degrees. All of this is not hard to do, but that type of work is not for some. The forcing cone doesn't necessarily have to be done and the 45 Colt will shoot pretty well without it.

As to the convertible, most find they will shoot one or the other and one cylinder gets very little use. It's an easy swap, one cylinder out the other in. I think people just get set with which ever they like and shoot it. I have a convertible 357/9mm and if I were to do it over again I'd just get the 357 mag. I never shoot the 9mm so it just doesn't seem worth the extra cash.

The Bisley grip is a matter of hand fit and preference. Some people love it some hate it. Not much in between.

Did I mention I love the 45 Colt? It is a great cartridge you can load about any way you like and that model Ruger can handle hot loads.

You also mention that you are just starting to like the Blackhawks. Fair warning! I started with the 45 Colt. Now have a 44 Mag, 357/9mm, 41 Mag, and a 480 Ruger. I've got my eye on a few more.

[DougGuy]

Fit and finish of the medium framed Rugers is second to none, they are as good as anything Ruger has ever done imho. Lawyer warning was moved to the bottom, thread choke is virtually nonexistent in the examples that have come through my shop. So good in fact, I had to have one!!

Smaller, lighter, easier packing than their full size predecessors, the 45s are safely rated to 45 ACP+P pressure, 23,000psi, and are not safe with the 30,000psi Ruger Only loads in published manuals.

Now.. The link the OP posted takes you to a full sized Blackhawk, which IS safe with the Ruger Only 30kpsi loads and a good deal heavier and beefier than the medium frame guns. I think you would have to examine these one on one to discover any thread choke, patch a cleaning jag tightly into the bore and see how much effort it takes to keep it moving toward the frame, any change in resistance correlates to a change in bore diameter. If it doesn't change at all at the barrel/frame juncture, there is no choke, if it tightens slightly there is a bit of choke, if it stops completely the choke is severe and with a stainless gun, nearly impossible to firelap the choke out of it without excessively lapping the rest of the rifling.

They all could benefit from a nicely recut forcing cone, throats can be anyone's guess and I wager very few will actually allow a .452" boolit to fit through the throats without excessive pressure. They all could benefit from throats honed to .4525" simple enough, one time fix, affordable. I do recommend the Wolff 30oz. trigger return spring which you can get from Brownell's or Midway, I get a lot of hammers sent along with cylinders to reduce the creep and this is another one time fix, again affordable, it will remove most if not all of the creep from the trigger.

So, hone cylinder throats, recut forcing cone, reduce hammer pad, and swap in 30oz. trigger return spring. These 4 things will take the new model Vaquero or new model Blackhawk as close to a custom gun as you can get for the bucks spent and this is money well spent on one of these, every shot fired afterwards will be reaping the rewards of such a modest investment.

[charlie b]

I had a .45 Colt BH convertible many years ago. It was very accurate with .45Colt loads, ok with .45 acp.

Since I also had two 1911's (NM model and Commander) back then, I used the .45acp in them and .45Colt in the Ruger.

The only reason I had for using the .45acp cylinder was if I was stuck without any .45Colt ammo, which was never the case for me. When I sold it, the .45 cylinder had less than a box of ammo fired through it. Most of the time I fired heavy (Ruger only) .45Colt loads.

[Harter66]

I had a Bicentennial BlackHawk in Colts and spent several months passively searching for an ACP cylinder . I did get one but it ended up being short . The second was just take the bluing off the nose boss too long , perfect fit . The ACP cyls were .4525 throats and correct headspace . The Colts cylinder ran .451-.454 throats in pairs , the chambers were great . Matched up I shot 5" groups for 6 shots at 50 yd pretty regular which was good enough for me leaning off hand . I could manage 3" sometimes with the APC cyl that was fitted . The groove was .451 with little if any choke .

Eventually I got the short cyl done in 45 Schofield using the head space control to off set the short . It shot equally well to the ACP .

Seems like the ACP was flush on the cyl face .

[nicholst55]

I have one of the distributor exclusive stainless 5.5" .45 Convertible flattops, although mine is a plowhandle grip rather than a Bisley. I traded for mine used, and I got someone else's problem child. The .45 Colt cylinder had two different diameter chamber throats; the .45 ACP cylinder had three. The barrel had a thread constriction, and it had transfer bar pinch. Once I corrected all of that, it responded quite well and now shoots around 2" at 25 yards.

I hear of people receiving flattop .45s with perfect chamber throats and no thread constriction from time to time, but I am not convinced that Ruger has gotten past those two issues.

[ole_270]

Just started with a Stainless Flattop 45 convertible. Had Doug hone the throats, recut the forcing cone and bent the trigger return spring to lighten the pull somewhat. Still need to take some off the hammer pad and shim it away from hitting the frame on the left side.
One problem I'm not sure on is after firing if you open the loading gate, most times the cylinder is locked up. Bang on the top strap with the heal of the hand and it comes free. At first I thought the case was backing out and hanging on something. Got it into a good light and could see daylight so that wasn't it. Thinking now it might be the pawl sticking out into the ratchet. I've cleaned the slot and lubed but hasn't changed anything.
Another problem is thread choke. A real tight patch on the jag moves down the barrel fairly easy after getting started, finds a loose spot just in front of the frame, and then gets pretty tight at the frame. Having some leading with 900 fps loads with PC'd bullets.
Guess it's another of the "kit" guns.

[johniv]

My .45 convertible is a first year production, 71 or 72, I think. I had the cyl. for the .45 Colt honed to .4525. Shoots fine. I am a sucker for conversion units, etc. So I love it. I load the RCBS 270 gr.
Boolits with a stiff charge of 2400, for hunting (pigs, deer, etc). The new ones I have handled, seem well made, and finished. FWIW.
John

[Pressman]

A Blackhawk 45 Colt is on my need to get list, I have several hundred rounds of reloads to use up. Problem is they are selling for $900-$1000 in this part of Minnesota.
357 and 44's are going for half that.

[curioushooter]

I’ve had several recent Rugers and now come to look on them as revolver kits you have to finish yourself.

This is what I feared. Every Ruger I've ever had has been a pile of BS like this. Every S&W I've owned only needed clean/lubricate, maybe a spring kit, and grips that I like. No shimming every part, no messing with sights, no reaming throats, not re-cutting forcing cones.

[DougGuy]

This is what I feared. Every Ruger I've ever had has been a pile of BS like this. Every S&W I've owned only needed clean/lubricate, maybe a spring kit, and grips that I like. No shimming every part, no messing with sights, no reaming throats, not re-cutting forcing cones.

Thank God Ruger didn't take out too much metal. They COULD have made them one size fits all then where would we be?

Ok, first rule of gun making (for commercial manufacturers) dictates that they have to make guns that shoot factory SAAMI spec ammunition. We handloaders use bigger boolits in nearly EVERY caliber. It's not on the gun industry to cater to our needs so quit blaming them. S&W does really good on cylinders for factory j words. They are priced accordingly. For shooting cast, S&W cylinders can benefit from fine tuning the throat diameters to the boolits WE want to use, and once done, they respond in like kind. Rather gratifying if you ask me.

If you want to pay another $400 to $600 more for a Ruger revolver that leaves the factory with everything spec'd out be my guest. It's not like they wouldn't take us up on it if we so demanded. I rather like the choice myself, and I am SURE many of my clients do as well. Size a 32 cylinder to .3115" .3125" .3135" size a 44 cylinder to .4305" .4315" .4325" take a little creep out of that trigger? Look at the choices we have! WE have it MADE pardner, whether you think so or not!

[Rick B]

Convertible from Williams Shooter Supply. N M Bisley SS 5.5”. 45C-45ACP. Purchased new 2011. Had both cylinder throats opened to .4525, Taylor throated and action job. The 45 ACP cylinder was modified to accept 45 Auto Rim cases Did a considerable amount of cast bullet testing in a Ransom Rest. Shoots very well at 50 yards. It’s my favorite S. A.
Rick

[Dorf]

I have one of the Lipsey's Flattops stainless .45 Colt/ .45ACP convertibles that is one of the most satisfying handguns that I have-- especially the .45 Colt chambering.
Mine likes the RCBS 270 grain cast and is probably the best finished/fitted Ruger that I own. I also have a 10mm/.40 S&W stainless Blackhawk that Doug "massaged"
and agree with what he posted above. Now if I can just find a flattop stainless in .44 spl I'll stop buying the damn things! Best2All, Stan.

[curiousgeorge]

Bought a BH 4-5/8 .45 Colt back in the 1990's during the time when convertibles (extra ACP cylinder) had been discontinued. Also picked up a BH Bisley in 7-1/2" in .45 Colt a few years later. Both shot ok with my cast reloads but nothing to brag about.

Later when Ruger brought the convertibles back, I sent my 4-3/4" BH back to factory and had ACP cylinder fitted. To my surprise, it turned out to also fit the Bisley. Unfortunately, the cylinder throats on the ACP cylinder wouldn't chamber a .452 boolit. All 3 cylinders made a trip to 'Cylindersmith' and were reamed to .4525.

Best money I ever spent. Both guns now shoot. .45 Colt very well and the Bisley shoots the target ACP loads better than my Smith 25.

Steve

[onelight]

I did not mention it but my 45 convertible is a flattop. I have had 2 standard new model black hawks an do think the flat top is fitted a little better. Mine shot good stock but I have also added springs and shims and fire lapped it I did have thread choke .
You can make Rugers better than the way they come , but as DougGuy pointed out they are well worth what they cost.....I don't think there are many of us here that can resist messin with stuff to make it better.:D

[megasupermagnum]

I don't consider myself more or less lucky than anyone else. I'm an average shooter, with average skills.

I've owned 4 S&W revolvers, all have needed work, and the one I still have needs continued work tightening screws, endshake bearings, etc.

I lost count of the Ruger's. I'm somewhere between 12 and 15. I had an LCR that shot a little to the right, which they fixed. I have an Old Army (built in 1981) that doesn't set off caps, and it may just be the caps. Other than that, Ruger has been spot on. No bore constrictions, very useable throats not too large or small, no forcing cone problems, and they shoot. Every one of them, with the exception of the LCR, will out shoot the S&W model 57 (which shoots well to begin with). I have a super Blackhawk waiting for me, and I'm guessing that will make another perfect Ruger. And the best part is, they hold up. I must have 3000 to 4000 rounds of strong 327 federal ammo through my GP100. It hasn't loosened up in the slightest.

I know I'm a small sample, but as a whole on this board I've seen that Ruger is on the top of their game right now.

[curioushooter]

I am glad that Ruger made the throats too small rather than too large. Doug can make quick work of that problem. What I am not keen on are things that are not easily fixed. A barrel with a constriction and a big B/C gap is not easily fixed by anyone without a set-up for that. I have enough problem guns waiting for me to get my lathe and mill up and running again.

Ruger has been in my doghouse since my EC9 has proven to be a uselessly jam-happy firearm and has been back to them twice and it is still a problem.

It does seem to me that the older smiths (P&Red) didn't have many problems like this. I've owned 3...a 28, 19, and 64. Each had it's barrel screwed in right, straight and had under .004 gap, little endshake. Sights were aligned correctly. I never bothered to pin gauge the throats because they shot right with cast or with jacketed so I didn't care. I went and measured sure enough the all three had .3575-.358 throats, none had bore constrictions. I fault my 686+ for having rifling that seems to like jacketed far better than cast. It has the Hillary hole. It is shallow rifling and narrow. It does shoot basically everything faster than expected though. It has a very tight gap and that rifling seems to save it 25-50 FPS vs the 19, but it does have an inch more barrel so that could be why. I fault my 624 for having .432 thoats (on the large side) and a barrel constriction, though a slight one. In spite of this is is very accurate, the most accurate handgun I have with cast boolits (I've never shot it with jacketed). What seems more important is having all 5 or 6 chambers be the same and well finished so cases/fouling come out easily.

[megasupermagnum]

Add one more perfect Ruger to my collection, a super blackhawk 44 magnum 10 1/2" silhouette model. Great forcing cone and bore, no thread constriction at all, 6 perfect .431" throats, and .005" BC gaps, everything is a nice tight fit. Fit and finish is well above the $700 price tag. I'm sure it will shoot. I think my dad will love it as his retirement present in a few months. He always liked the big guns, and has been hunting with his model 29 10 5/8" silhouette longer than I can remember. He still loves it, but considers it too collectible to shoot it as much as he should.

Curiousshooter, if you like what you see, buy it. Ruger is doing great work right now.

[Pressman]

This is what I mean about high priced 45 Colt's. I picked up this same Super Blackhawk, 10.5 Inch from Cabela's in Owattona in November for $450, used with custom grips. In February the same store has a 45 Colt, 7.5 in Blackhawk listed for $950.00 used. And they sold it!

[nawagner]

I agree prices are up. There may be a couple explanations for the difference you mention though. One, 10.5" is not a highly sought after barrel length and the shorter barrels are. Two, depending on the grips, most are not looking for custom grips and prefer the Ruger factory grips. Three, I think at $450 you got a really good deal. I see the 45's in the $550-$700 range as reasonable and the going rate. $950 is crazy high unless it was a special model. To get to that price range you're looking at 41 Mag Bisley Hunter models.

[Bass Ackward]

Learn to be a better buyer. Ruger's biggest problem on single actions is getting the barrels screwed on straight. If they are installed crooked, then one portion of the barrel shoulder hits first leaving a gap on the opposite side. If they tighten the barrel to make the gap go away the barrel will fight to align, but you get "a constriction" proportional to the misalignment. That causes another problem if the alignment didn't go away. A slug that can't force the cylinder into alignment before the base has exited squarely, gets a boat tail cut onto their PB bullet as the seal breaks. Even if you remove the choke, you still damage the base. How did Ol'timers get around this? They used base protection in one of three forms. They either used a slow powder so the column would slow the gasses, they slapped on a check, or they shoot poofies to lower the cutting heat / force & minimize the deformation. So learning what you have can save you BIG bucks trying this & that if you can face the reality of what you bought. How bad is the problem? 24 out of 27 brand new, single actions at my local store could be seen by the naked eye. The best were 2, fix sighted guns cause you can't cheat and adjust the sights. I bought the 27th. Guns with misalignment can compensate by wearing so the cylinder can turn into alignment. Ruger cylinders are peened on the ends to fit the base pin so they can …. stretch (run out of round) for that chamber when the gun breaks in. What happens if you "fix" that problem with a LARGER base pin? You force the wear somewhere else, forcing cones, barrels, throats that enlarge or oblong. So the best you can hope for is to let the gun shake rattle & move.

How is this done? Look down the top of the revolver. With your eye draw an imaginary line across the face of your cylinder & project a 90 degree line. Does you muzzle line up with that line. Then repeat this process from the side. If you have a constriction, it will at least tell you where the barrel made first contact (where it is) so you can work on that area before you fire lap slop into compensating dimensions of the gun and have to shoot permanently shoot big, soft bullets at low velocity.

[contender1]

"This is what I feared. Every Ruger I've ever had has been a pile of BS like this. Every S&W I've owned only needed clean/lubricate, maybe a spring kit, and grips that I like. No shimming every part, no messing with sights, no reaming throats, not re-cutting forcing cones."

"Thank God Ruger didn't take out too much metal. They COULD have made them one size fits all then where would we be?

Ok, first rule of gun making (for commercial manufacturers) dictates that they have to make guns that shoot factory SAAMI spec ammunition. We handloaders use bigger boolits in nearly EVERY caliber. It's not on the gun industry to cater to our needs so quit blaming them. S&W does really good on cylinders for factory j words. They are priced accordingly. For shooting cast, S&W cylinders can benefit from fine tuning the throat diameters to the boolits WE want to use, and once done, they respond in like kind. Rather gratifying if you ask me.

If you want to pay another $400 to $600 more for a Ruger revolver that leaves the factory with everything spec'd out be my guest. It's not like they wouldn't take us up on it if we so demanded. I rather like the choice myself, and I am SURE many of my clients do as well. Size a 32 cylinder to .3115" .3125" .3135" size a 44 cylinder to .4305" .4315" .4325" take a little creep out of that trigger? Look at the choices we have! WE have it MADE pardner, whether you think so or not! "

An EXCELLENT posting/explanation of the mechanics of things that are mass produced by parts assemblers, vs built by a real gunsmith.

We here on this Forum prefer cast boolits. But, a LOT of casual shooters are not reloaders, not casters, nor demand as much as we may. They buy jacketed bullets, from a factory, and as such,, the guns built by Ruger, S&W & all the bigger names are built to specs for that market. And don't forget the need for mass production to satisfy demands.

I own quite a few Ruger SA handguns. In fact,, I probably own more .45 cal handguns than many folks here have in all the guns they own. Some are convertible, and others just in Colt. I have all 6 variations of the Old Model 45's Ruger built between 1971 & 1973. I did a display of them at the 2018 OGCA/ROCS show in Ohio. Some of my .45's have required tweaking,, while others,,,, not necessary. READ what DougGuy posted about the 4 little things you can do to fine tune a SA handgun to make it better. EXCELLENT information, and if done,, doesn't cost much, all while improving your handgun.

If you want darn near perfection, buy a Freedom Arms. In fact,, I'd say they are the most perfect built handgun from a factory,, and in fact,, often even better than what a few "custom gunsmiths" have turned out. But you HAVE to PAY for that kind of quality. Mass production can't compete with hand built in quality,,, while hand built can't compete with demands.

[megasupermagnum]

Learn to be a better buyer. Ruger's biggest problem on single actions is getting the barrels screwed on straight. If they are installed crooked, then one portion of the barrel shoulder hits first leaving a gap on the opposite side.

Do you have any proof? I've never once seen this from any brand. Unless the threads were messed up, this is not possible.

If they tighten the barrel to make the gap go away the barrel will fight to align, but you get "a constriction" proportional to the misalignment. That causes another problem if the alignment didn't go away.

What?

A slug that can't force the cylinder into alignment before the base has exited squarely, gets a boat tail cut onto their PB bullet as the seal breaks. Even if you remove the choke, you still damage the base. How did Ol'timers get around this? They used base protection in one of three forms. They either used a slow powder so the column would slow the gasses, they slapped on a check, or they shoot poofies to lower the cutting heat / force & minimize the deformation.

I assume what you are trying to say here, is that the cylinder throat and barrel can be out of perfect alignment. This is true, but it is true of all revolvers, luck of the draw. S&W is no better. I believe Magnum Research, and Freedom arms are your only bet for perfect alignment short of a custom, as they bore the barrel and cylinders together. Even still, Ruger and S&W can shoot amazingly.

So learning what you have can save you BIG bucks trying this & that if you can face the reality of what you bought. How bad is the problem? 24 out of 27 brand new, single actions at my local store could be seen by the naked eye. The best were 2, fix sighted guns cause you can't cheat and adjust the sights. I bought the 27th.

See what? 24 out of 27 were in a glass case?

Guns with misalignment can compensate by wearing so the cylinder can turn into alignment. Ruger cylinders are peened on the ends to fit the base pin so they can …. stretch (run out of round) for that chamber when the gun breaks in. What happens if you "fix" that problem with a LARGER base pin? You force the wear somewhere else, forcing cones, barrels, throats that enlarge or oblong. So the best you can hope for is to let the gun shake rattle & move.

Again, do you have any proof? Oblong barrels? Come on now.

How is this done? Look down the top of the revolver. With your eye draw an imaginary line across the face of your cylinder & project a 90 degree line. Does you muzzle line up with that line. Then repeat this process from the side. If you have a constriction, it will at least tell you where the barrel made first contact (where it is) so you can work on that area before you fire lap slop into compensating dimensions of the gun and have to shoot permanently shoot big, soft bullets at low velocity.

You cannot see a constriction with the naked eye. Turning the gun 90 degrees isn't going to help.:lol:



Where to people even come up with this stuff?

[Bass Ackward]

This is a Ruger single action thread, so I commented on no other brand.

Not all stores restrict their patrons especially when they are accompanied by a Ruger rep. And Ruger's opinion on all this? "Ruger makes guns to shoot jacketed bullets."

And for proof, hell yea, one of my 44 Sp's with 13k rounds has to have the barrel set back about 1/2" (guess) cause the forcing cone barrel junction measures .436 X .431. Sorta banana shaped like it was rotating around a fixed base pin. I won't know how far it has to be cut back till I use trial & error. Throats' were .431 new & now are over .433 and they aren't round anymore. So I may just send it back to Ruger, then sell it cause I bought another.

And where do I get this? Smithin, since 1967. How long you been at it?

Never said you could see a constriction, just the misalignment that caused it. But if it's there, you can perform the eye test and it will let you know where it is in relation to a clock in case you want to work it out without enlarging the whole bore.

I didn't even mention things like bent bullets if the cylinder chamber notch wouldn't permit cylinder movement or reshaping (marring / peening) of the notch.

Fine Threads are not so easy as you think. With a wrench, you are too far in before you get an (ooops) indication. My recommendation was for them to go to a metric thread that is easier to start properly. Just like you, I'm not sure that it really registered, but we'll see.

[jonp]

Had DougGuy work mine over and it runs like a boss.

[megasupermagnum]

This is a Ruger single action thread, so I commented on no other brand.

Not all stores restrict their patrons especially when they are accompanied by a Ruger rep. And Ruger's opinion on all this? "Ruger makes guns to shoot jacketed bullets."

And for proof, hell yea, one of my 44 Sp's with 13k rounds has to have the barrel set back about 1/2" (guess) cause the forcing cone barrel junction measures .436 X .431. Sorta banana shaped like it was rotating around a fixed base pin. I won't know how far it has to be cut back till I use trial & error. Throats' were .431 new & now are over .433 and they aren't round anymore. So I may just send it back to Ruger, then sell it cause I bought another.

And where do I get this? Smithin, since 1967. How long you been at it?

Never said you could see a constriction, just the misalignment that caused it. But if it's there, you can perform the eye test and it will let you know where it is in relation to a clock in case you want to work it out without enlarging the whole bore.

I didn't even mention things like bent bullets if the cylinder chamber notch wouldn't permit cylinder movement or reshaping (marring / peening) of the notch.

Fine Threads are not so easy as you think. With a wrench, you are too far in before you get an (ooops) indication. My recommendation was for them to go to a metric thread that is easier to start properly. Just like you, I'm not sure that it really registered, but we'll see.

Shooting alone enlarged your cylinder throats from .431" to .433"? I haven't even seen that from fire lapping.

[Texas by God]

Add one more perfect Ruger to my collection, a super blackhawk 44 magnum 10 1/2" silhouette model. Great forcing cone and bore, no thread constriction at all, 6 perfect .431" throats, and .005" BC gaps, everything is a nice tight fit. Fit and finish is well above the $700 price tag. I'm sure it will shoot. I think my dad will love it as his retirement present in a few months. He always liked the big guns, and has been hunting with his model 29 10 5/8" silhouette longer than I can remember. He still loves it, but considers it too collectible to shoot it as much as he should.

Curiousshooter, if you like what you see, buy it. Ruger is doing great work right now.

A late friend had a stainless Sillouette SBH like that. We were riding the range twixt Muleshoe and Needmore, Texas. I stopped “La Bomba” (1976 Ford LTD) and from the drivers seat hit three prairie dogs in a row around 100 yards with it. That was the first time I had ever shot that gun and it seems like yesterday.

[Bass Ackward]

The type of cartridge has a lot to do with the cutting action. 45 ACP/ AR will cut tapered throats because of the rapid pressure curve. My 625 was .452 & now is roughly .454 down to .453. The EDM / polygonal rifling had a little rifling on top. Those are all gone now, and actually shoots better than when they were there. My 629 was an early EDM with the scar down the bore from the forcing cone & that's almost gone now too.

Antimony is abrasive. If you shoot it, (under pressure with pressure defined as exceeding bullet hardness or in misalignment conditions) you ARE fire lapping. Just like sandpaper, the harder you push on it, the more it cuts. Just a cost of shooting cheap.

Almost forgot. Shooting "clean" accelerates the wear. Cost me a lot before I learned that.

[Dale53]

One thing I seldom see mentioned regarding bore wear. Cast bullets wear MUCH less than jacketed bullets. Back when I was shooting Bullseye and later IPSC, the Advanced Marksmanship (Army) Gunsmiths told me that they had to replace 1911 barrels every 5000 rounds to maintain accuracy (those barrels shot hardball). Ray Chapman, of IPSC fame, told me he had 200,000 rounds of cast bullets through his Packmayr gunsmithed 1911 and it was still shooting accurately. I, myself, have in excess of 100,000 rounds through my "built up" 1911, and it still shoots with NRA Match accuracy.

That's right, 100,000+ rounds of cast bullets - still shooting well. 5000 rounds of hardball, and the barrel needs replacing.

My personal 625-8 has been fired 5000-7500 rounds per year for several years (cast bullets, only) and it still shoots with precision. That's just another reason, for me to LOVE casting bullets, reloading, then putting them down range!

FWIW
Dale53

[DougGuy]

The type of cartridge has a lot to do with the cutting action. 45 ACP/ AR will cut tapered throats because of the rapid pressure curve. My 625 was .452 & now is roughly .454 down to .453. The EDM / polygonal rifling had a little rifling on top. Those are all gone now, and actually shoots better than when they were there. My 629 was an early EDM with the scar down the bore from the forcing cone & that's almost gone now too.

Antimony is abrasive. If you shoot it, (under pressure with pressure defined as exceeding bullet hardness or in misalignment conditions) you ARE fire lapping. Just like sandpaper, the harder you push on it, the more it cuts. Just a cost of shooting cheap.

Almost forgot. Shooting "clean" accelerates the wear. Cost me a lot before I learned that.

How are you taking these measurements? And what tool(s) are you measuring with?

In 6 years of steady turning around cylinders, a couple of thousand at least, I have never seen one cylinder with this drastic amount of wear from shooting, OR this much taper from shooting. The plain truth is even the Bubba'ed cylinders I have had in my shop haven't been this tapered. This is speaking of all makes and ages, in 44 and 45 caliber.

I am not calling you a liar by any means, so please don't take this post as an attack on your dignity, I'm curious why the cylinders you describe show signs of wear that none of the thousands of cylinders that have come through my shop show. I think if this were a common occurrence I would have been aware of it by now.


Guns with misalignment can compensate by wearing so the cylinder can turn into alignment. Ruger cylinders are peened on the ends to fit the base pin so they can …. stretch (run out of round) for that chamber when the gun breaks in. What happens if you "fix" that problem with a LARGER base pin? You force the wear somewhere else, forcing cones, barrels, throats that enlarge or oblong. So the best you can hope for is to let the gun shake rattle & move.

I am no fan of bigger base pins. The forcing cone is not a funnel that squishes the boolit into the bore, it is an alignment tool that causes the cylinder to rotate to the point of least resistance as the boolit exits the cylinder and enters the bore. Ruger single actions NEED this tolerance. As you say if you tighten the base pin, it will wear somewhere else.

Unless you are willing to go through the Ruger and completely custom build it, fitting the bolt to each notch, align boring each chamber, blueprinting every single dimension and removing all measurable play, the gun will shoot itself loose again in short order if you only take up some of the play between the parts.

[megasupermagnum]

Antimony is abrasive. If you shoot it, (under pressure with pressure defined as exceeding bullet hardness or in misalignment conditions) you ARE fire lapping. Just like sandpaper, the harder you push on it, the more it cuts. Just a cost of shooting cheap.

Almost forgot. Shooting "clean" accelerates the wear. Cost me a lot before I learned that.


There it is again. Where are you getting these "facts"? You need to provide some sources. And what does shooting "clean" mean?

[35 Whelen]

Oh my. I've been so turned on lately to big bore stuff with my 44 SPL that I started to pay attention to Blackhawks.

This thing looks pretty neat to me (https://ruger.com/products/newModelBlackhawkConvertible/specSheets/0472.html).

It has what I like in a Blackhawk...the Bisley Grip, stainless, and a barrel greater than 5" long in a cartridge that is Indiana deer-legal. I'v never had any forty-five anything before, but if it handloads anything like 44 SPL, it should be great...probably better.

I wanted to know what people thought of the quality of these new Blackhawks. What are the throats like? Are the barrels good? Nasty constrictions? How do they shoot? Trigger quality?

I also wanted to know if the convertible feature works well. I don't have anything in 45 ACP so I would probably not bother with it. Are the barrels on these .452 or .454? Would these work with 45 Auto Rim?

If you're already enjoying the .44 Special, chances are the 45 Colt may be a bit of a disappointment. I started with a .44 Special and it to me is much like the .38 Special; feed it any reasonable load and a good bullet, and it will shoot. The 45 Colt has been more persnickety for me and I've bought and sold several before finding a couple of keepers; a Uberti Frisco and a USFA Rodeo.

As to Ruger and their idiosyncrasies, my very first 45 Colt was a New Vaquero and the amount of work it needed was ridiculous. How hard would it be to manufacture a SA revolver in which the bolt pops just prior to the notches in the cylinder instead of halfway between the notches, leaving the nasty score on the cylinder? Easily enough corrected, but just as easily prevented. Thread choke? This seems to be almost exclusive to Ruger .45 caliber revolvers, and the throats are another thing that could easily be remedied in production. Let's not forget that the Italians are building SA's that are very nicely fitted and finished, perfectly timed, as strong as the New Vaquero's, and have properly sized throats. In fact with the last three I have bought, a (32-20, .44 Special and 45 Colt), all 2017 productions, I didn't even bother measuring the throats, Just sized bullets .313", .430" and .452" and started shooting. And these revolver are produced 5,000+ miles away, shipped here and sold for less than Ruger's. Wonder why Ruger won't up its game?

35W

[contender1]

"Wonder why Ruger won't up its game?"

Hourly workers,, and guns built to shoot jacketed bullets,, using SAAMI specs.

[waco]

262957I got this 45 convertible awhile back. Love it!

[Crow_Eater]

I own a .45 Blackhawk Convertable (.45 Colt & .45 ACP) made in 1999, which I bought new. I bought it for .45 Colt which I shot a lot and didn't much care about the .45 ACP cylinder. Never fired anything but standard velocity .45 Colt loads in it (no "Ruger loads"), since I have other .45 Colt revolvers and didn't want to mix up the loads. Shot it some in CAS. The revolver has about 1,000 rounds through it, more or less.
It was good I didn't much care about the .45 ACP cylinder, because it did not function from the beginning. No lead bullet ACP load would completely chamber or allow the cylinder to rotate. These were loads that chambered and fired just fine in a 1911 pattern auto (one of allegedly cursed AMT Hardballers, which loads and shoots everything), an Astra A-80 (European specs), and/or a (good old American mainstream) S&W M-25-2. Not to mention a friend's Star PD. Don't remember if any of that stuff found its way into any of my shooting buddies' Series 70s or Gold Cups. To round things out, my Ruger would not chamber and fire factory hardball -- typical 230gr FMJ roundnose.
Sent it to Ruger, on my dime of course. They turned it around in about 10 days -- checked headspace and cylinder end-shake, fired 12 rounds (factory JHPs) through each cylinder, declared victory, and sent it back to me. Now it does not chamber any lead bullets or allow the cylinder to rotate with them, except for one load, although the cylinder needs an "assist" to rotate with it, works with some JHPs (RP anyway) but still will not chamber factory hardball. Hardball!
So my Ruger Blackhawk .45 ACP revolver is more finnicky with ammo than any .45 ACP handgun I own or have ever fired. It will shoot what IT wants to shoot, but not what I want it to shoot. But that cylinder does have a use.
On a breezy day I can always get the .45 ACP Blackhawk Convertable cylinder out to hold down the papers on my desk.

[DougGuy]

I own a .45 Blackhawk Convertable (.45 Colt & .45 ACP) made in 1999, which I bought new. I bought it for .45 Colt which I shot a lot and didn't much care about the .45 ACP cylinder. Never fired anything but standard velocity .45 Colt loads in it (no "Ruger loads"), since I have other .45 Colt revolvers and didn't want to mix up the loads. Shot it some in CAS. The revolver has about 1,000 rounds through it, more or less.
It was good I didn't much care about the .45 ACP cylinder, because it did not function from the beginning. No lead bullet ACP load would completely chamber or allow the cylinder to rotate. These were loads that chambered and fired just fine in a 1911 pattern auto (one of allegedly cursed AMT Hardballers, which loads and shoots everything), an Astra A-80 (European specs), and/or a (good old American mainstream) S&W M-25-2. Not to mention a friend's Star PD. Don't remember if any of that stuff found its way into any of my shooting buddies' Series 70s or Gold Cups. To round things out, my Ruger would not chamber and fire factory hardball -- typical 230gr FMJ roundnose.
Sent it to Ruger, on my dime of course. They turned it around in about 10 days -- checked headspace and cylinder end-shake, fired 12 rounds (factory JHPs) through each cylinder, declared victory, and sent it back to me. Now it does not chamber any lead bullets or allow the cylinder to rotate with them, except for one load, although the cylinder needs an "assist" to rotate with it, works with some JHPs (RP anyway) but still will not chamber factory hardball. Hardball!
So my Ruger Blackhawk .45 ACP revolver is more finnicky with ammo than any .45 ACP handgun I own or have ever fired. It will shoot what IT wants to shoot, but not what I want it to shoot. But that cylinder does have a use.
On a breezy day I can always get the .45 ACP Blackhawk Convertable cylinder out to hold down the papers on my desk.

Send the cylinders my way you will get back something a whole lot more useful than a paperweight..

[cp1969]

My .45 convertible is a first year production, 71 or 72, I think. I had the cyl. for the .45 Colt honed to .4525. Shoots fine. I am a sucker for conversion units, etc. So I love it. I load the RCBS 270 gr.
Boolits with a stiff charge of 2400, for hunting (pigs, deer, etc). The new ones I have handled, seem well made, and finished. FWIW.
John

I, too, have an early one but not a convertible. Does yours have the counterbored cylinder? Mine did but had much larger throats that the barrel and wouldn't seal jacketed bullets. .452 lead bullets would seal it but leaded badly. Twenty years ago, I sent it back and had the 7 1/2" barrel replaced with a 5 1/2" and the cylinder replaced with one having .452" throats but I never found a load it liked, so it's been relegated to snake shot capsule duty. They sent the 7 1/2" barrel back but kept the counterbored cylinder. They didn't do it for free, either.

[Green Frog]

I’ve told this tale before, but it bears repeating in the current conversation. Well over 25 years ago my brother bought a used Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt... not a convertible. I was at a gun show in Richmond, VA and saw a cylinder with the familiar red felt bag sitting on a table and priced at some negligible amount. I bought it and gifted it to my brother who discovered that not only was it a drop in fit to his BH, but in casual testing it was more accurate (with lead bullet loads) than his original 45 Colt cylinder. Luck of the draw? Who knows, but those BH 45s should be expected to shoot. :Fire:

Froggie

[Jtarm]

"This is what I feared. Every Ruger I've ever had has been a pile of BS like this. Every S&W I've owned only needed clean/lubricate, maybe a spring kit, and grips that I like. No shimming every part, no messing with sights, no reaming throats, not re-cutting forcing cones."

"Thank God Ruger didn't take out too much metal. They COULD have made them one size fits all then where would we be?

Ok, first rule of gun making (for commercial manufacturers) dictates that they have to make guns that shoot factory SAAMI spec ammunition. We handloaders use bigger boolits in nearly EVERY caliber. It's not on the gun industry to cater to our needs so quit blaming them. S&W does really good on cylinders for factory j words. They are priced accordingly. For shooting cast, S&W cylinders can benefit from fine tuning the throat diameters to the boolits WE want to use, and once done, they respond in like kind. Rather gratifying if you ask me.

If you want to pay another $400 to $600 more for a Ruger revolver that leaves the factory with everything spec'd out be my guest. It's not like they wouldn't take us up on it if we so demanded. I rather like the choice myself, and I am SURE many of my clients do as well. Size a 32 cylinder to .3115" .3125" .3135" size a 44 cylinder to .4305" .4315" .4325" take a little creep out of that trigger? Look at the choices we have! WE have it MADE pardner, whether you think so or not! "

An EXCELLENT posting/explanation of the mechanics of things that are mass produced by parts assemblers, vs built by a real gunsmith.

We here on this Forum prefer cast boolits. But, a LOT of casual shooters are not reloaders, not casters, nor demand as much as we may. They buy jacketed bullets, from a factory, and as such,, the guns built by Ruger, S&W & all the bigger names are built to specs for that market. And don't forget the need for mass production to satisfy demands.

I own quite a few Ruger SA handguns. In fact,, I probably own more .45 cal handguns than many folks here have in all the guns they own. Some are convertible, and others just in Colt. I have all 6 variations of the Old Model 45's Ruger built between 1971 & 1973. I did a display of them at the 2018 OGCA/ROCS show in Ohio. Some of my .45's have required tweaking,, while others,,,, not necessary. READ what DougGuy posted about the 4 little things you can do to fine tune a SA handgun to make it better. EXCELLENT information, and if done,, doesn't cost much, all while improving your handgun.

If you want darn near perfection, buy a Freedom Arms. In fact,, I'd say they are the most perfect built handgun from a factory,, and in fact,, often even better than what a few "custom gunsmiths" have turned out. But you HAVE to PAY for that kind of quality. Mass production can't compete with hand built in quality,,, while hand built can't compete with demands.

Spot on.

I got sick of the bellyaching on the S&W forum and did some math. The fact is, if S&W “made em like they used to” (which wasn’t as great as people like to remember), the whiners either couldn’t afford them, or would be whining about how expensive they are.

The S&W .357 magnum premiered in 1935 for $60. Produced today with the same amount of skilled labor, it would run about $3,000. Or roughly the price of a Freedom Arms.

A good bit of factory “hand fitting” people get so sentimental about was, in fact, required just to get the gun functioning because parts were so inconsistent.