Case forming warning

[Shotgun31]

I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.

A tribute to the Remington 700 action! Held all that escaping gas.
Shotgun

[Mk42gunner]

Each chamber is different, especially wildcats that have been around a long time. It really pays to check and be sure.

For example my particular 6.5-06 happily digests WW .30-06 brass. I formed mine that way specifically for the type of person that reads the headstamp and thinks that is the only thing it can be. "But it said .25-06, why'd it blow up my rifle?"

Mine is on a 98 Mauser, with a Wilson barrel.

Robert

[dverna]

Why would a thick neck blow up the gun?

If the bolt closes without forcing it, I would think it should be OK.

Glad you are safe.

[BK7saum]

Thick necks or overly long cases can raise pressures drastically. I always check to make sure that the loaded case neck is AT LEAST 0.002" less than a fired case neck.

I had a 223 rem case with a very enlarged primer pocket. I am certain it slipped through and didnt get trimmed. It was way too long and I am sure crimped my bullet as it was chambered.

If anything slows the bullet from the normal acceleration, pressures can skyrocket. Once you drop below 0.001" radial clearance, the case neck doesn't release the bullet as readily as it should/usually does with properly fit cases.

[Rapidrob]

Don't forget case volume. The commercial brass will hold a lot more than military brass ( thick walls). Take the same load in commercial brass and put it into a military case and you will have problems. Not neck turning the military case and add that to the fire.
I made a custom Santa Barbra commercial barreled Mauser actioned .25-06 rifle in 1971 and the first thing I was told was to watch my loads using .30-06 military brass ( were were still using .30-06 small arms in the Navy then) and to always neck turn the military brass cases, which I have done.
It is very easy to get into trouble with the small-bore Wildcat calibers and military brass or Remington brass.
I hope you were not hurt.

[EDG]

You maybe jumping to an erroneous conclusion.
Assuming the brass caused he blow up without any other proof may be a mistake.
The 25-06, having such a large case for a small bore, is inherently susceptable to pressure excursons if you make a mistake charging a case.
I have some experience to support this point of view.
1. I bought one of the first Rem 700 in .25-06 in the early 1970s.
I have formed and fired a lot of military .30-06 in my rifle. I still have a lot of 100 LC Match cases from that time.
2.Over the years I bought a lot of once fired brass from indoor shooting ranges. Few factory loaded cases are found to have blown primers but they do occur - most frequently in Remington 6mm and Remington 25-06 brass. I have to conclude that the .25-06 is touchy at even factory load levels much less handloads pushing maxximum load levels.
3. I have a 6X47 Rem benchrest rifle with a tight neck chamber. I have fired many rounds with .0002 to .0005 neck clearance. I have never blown a primer in the .222 Mag brass.

I suggest it is easily possible to overload the 25-06 inadvertently and blame other factors. Even the factories blow primers with this round.


I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.

A tribute to the Remington 700 action! Held all that escaping gas.
Shotgun

7

[M-Tecs]

I'm with EDG on this. To pressure weld the bolt on Rem 700 you are in the 140,000 to 160,000 PSI range if I remember correctly. I am not seeing how you get there even if the neck was tight and long. Some GI cases do have less volume but at best you are talking a 10% pressure increase not doubling or tripling max chamber pressure.

Every case of this level over pressure has been powder related or short larger caliber cartridge in a smaller caliber chamber. I have personally inspected two 300 BO's fired in a 223 chamber. One bulged the barrel. The other the upper blew the barrel, bolt and carrier.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/08/scary-stuff-300-blackout-fired-in-a-223-rem-barrel/

What bullet and powder charge?

[Shotgun31]

Don’t know, but the rifle held it.
Shotgun

[fguffey]

I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.

Reloaders are going to have to decide what happens to the neck when necked down; When I neck a 30/06 case up to 6.5 the neck gets longer. When I neck the 30/06 case up to .338" the neck gets shorter. And then there are those that go deep into the neck getting thinner and or thicker.

SO? If there was such a thing as agreeing and the neck did get longer when necked down there is a possibility the case was too long for the chamber.

Because I am a case former a builder of bench rest type rifles called to inform me one of his customers called and was not happy. The new owner complained the necks were loose in the chamber meaning there was too much clearance between the neck chamber and neck of the case. And I asked; "How was accuracy?" The builder claimed the new owner was happy with the accuracy. I informed the builder 500 30/06 cases that were the same color, same head stamp and from the same batch. We did, the year was the same and they were stamped Lake City Match. We reduced the clearance from
.008" to .0025" and accuracy did not improve.

F. Guffey

[flounderman]

any time you neck a case down, the necks get thicker. Check the fired cases to see if a bullet will enter without pressure, and insert the bullet past the shoulder angle, because the case can be thicker at the base of the neck with reformed necked down cases. Federal cases have less volume and can raise pressures. Before you have really dangerous pressures, you will see primer leakage and hard extracting. Getting a 6.5 bullet in a 25 caliber barrel can take things apart, using 4320 powder. If you are shooting 87 grain bullets and load 120 grain, you are going to raise pressures. Thick necks and too long necks will raise pressures, but you should be using 4831 burn rate powders in a 25-06. If you are using fast powders, pressures can spike faster when a neck is thick and long, but there had to be a major error for something to happen without warning signs, like an oversized bullet and fast powder.

[uscra112]

Don't forget case volume. The commercial brass will hold a lot more than military brass ( thick walls). Take the same load in commercial brass and put it into a military case and you will have problems. Not neck turning the military case and add that to the fire.
I made a custom Santa Barbra commercial barreled Mauser actioned .25-06 rifle in 1971 and the first thing I was told was to watch my loads using .30-06 military brass ( were were still using .30-06 small arms in the Navy then) and to always neck turn the military brass cases, which I have done.
It is very easy to get into trouble with the small-bore Wildcat calibers and military brass or Remington brass.
I hope you were not hurt.

Personal evaluation of several hundred .30-06 cases a couple of years ago put paid to this old wives tale. Did not find even one batch of American arsenal brass that averaged any heavier/thicker than commercial. That said, watch out for some foreign makes.

BTW ditto for .223/5.56 and .308. I still wonder where this myth got started. Some ill-informed magazine gunwriter I suppose.

[fguffey]

I still wonder where this myth got started. Some ill-informed magazine gunwriter I suppose.

Reloaders; I have been told the military case is heavier because it is thicker. A lot of reloaders talked about it but I had trouble finding a reloader that weighed and or measuring.

I told them if there was any truth it could only be a half-truth. All of my surplus 30/06 cases had a case head thickness of .200" when measured from the cup above the web to the case head. I compared the surplus cases to Remington 30/06 cases. The Remington case head had a thickness of .260"; that meant nothing to another reloader but if the Remington case head is .060" thicker the case head has to be heavier than a case head with a thickness of .200". It was then I realized I was not talking to a group that could keep up.

They were weak on case head protrusion but that did not slow me down, I recommended the Remington case with the thick case head for safety. I wasted my time but just in case there was a reloader that was interested I did not want to miss them.

F. Guffey

[Preacher Jim]

Just saw this on a Remington where fellow set shoulder back to much forming case. A head seperated and blew out to rear. Damaged bolt locked action. First time i saw this happen to Remington.

[Martin Luber]

Or is it a case head extrusion into the ejector plunger hole?

Lots of good info here. Thanks

[Martin Luber]

I don't have much experience case forming and haven't needed it so are reduced charges with the new diameter bullet used or full loads? I recall folks using an empty case with bullseye.

I did play with 6 ppc from 7.62 x 39. Small primer Remington were fine, Lg seemed to be too much.

[uscra112]

Reloaders; I have been told the military case is heavier because it is thicker. A lot of reloaders talked about it but I had trouble finding a reloader that weighed and or measuring.


F. Guffey

Well, now you know one, even if over the Innertubes. Statistical process control (automotive) was my career the last 15 years of my working life. I got bored after retirement. I also did a 1000+ round weight/dimensional study of bulk .22 rimfire.

I'm over it now.....(I hope).

I have a penchant for collecting old rifles in obsolete calibers. Some are sloppy black-powder chamberings, but others are wildcats from the interwar years when gunsmiths prayed before the gods of tight chambering. Consequently every case I form gets neck-turned and with those wildcats I do a chamber cast to get accurate dimensions before I ever fire a round in them.

Phil

[fguffey]

wildcats I do a chamber cast to get accurate dimensions before I ever fire a round in them.

We have expert chamber casters on all forums that means I know better than to get involved.

So? Invite me to your next chamber casting job. It is one of those things that can not be done on the Internet.

F. Guffey

[1hole]

At one point in my case reforming and reloading life I made quite a few chamber casts, primarily to learn the neck, shoulder and head diameters of my chambers. Then I noticed that my cast dimensions were all about a thou greater in diameter than the fired cases and I haven't felt a need to do another chamber cast since.

I'd like to know what - and how - someone managed to reform and set a rimless case shoulder back so far it pulled apart when fired. That was a major screw up!

Anytime we squeeze a case (or anything else) down it gets longer. Expand a case up and it tends to either stay virtually the same or gets a tad shorter, depending on the degree of diameter change and how the angles of the changing force is applied.

I'll never understand the logic of using a light load to "fireform" a changed case. If we're ever going to use it for a full power charge why not do it that way the first time?

I've not seen every military cartridge case ever made but the ones I have seen seem to have about the same internal capacity as an average factory case.

[EDG]

Brass is elastic so it has some springback when fired. That is what enables it to be easily extracted.


Quote
Then I noticed that my cast dimensions were all about a thou greater in diameter than the fired cases and I haven't felt a need to do another chamber cast since.

[fguffey]

I'd like to know what - and how - someone managed to reform and set a rimless case shoulder back so far it pulled apart when fired. That was a major screw up!

I should be embarrassed, I am the one that said it is impossible to move a shoulder back with a die that has full case body support. I am also the one that fired 8mm57 rounds in my 8mm06 chamber without case head separation. the shoulder of the 8mm57 case is .127" from the shoulder of the 8mm06.


That was a major screw up!

A shooter walked into a North Texas gun shop with the intent of suing all involved. When the smith was finished he explained to the shooter he chambered a 308W round in to a 25/06. And then three other smiths started arguing about how long the bullet was when it left the barrel.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

I Used to form 6.5-06 cases from .25-06 or 270 brass. Worked great. Then I tried some militaty 30-06 and I think I had a thick neck-to the point where I blew up the gun. Welded the bolt shut, couldn’t open.

I suggest a reloader measure before and again after and again after sizing.
The 30/06, 270 and the 25/06 case body/including the shoulder are all the same.

If you necked the 30/06 down count on the neck getting longer. Problems are created when the shoulder becomes part of the neck. I find it an advantage when I need to off set the neck of a generious chamber.

F. Guffey

[uscra112]

I should be embarrassed, I am the one that said it is impossible to move a shoulder back with a die that has full case body support. I am also the one that fired 8mm57 rounds in my 8mm06 chamber without case head separation. the shoulder of the 8mm57 case is .127" from the shoulder of the 8mm06.
F. Guffey

FWIW - One very good way to achieve excessive shoulder setback is to fireform with a light load. OK with rimmed cases, but with rimless the explosion of the primer drives the case forward, and with a light load there isn't enough pressure to drive it back again.

[EDG]

Thickness of the case head may or may not be significant.
What is important is the STRENGTH of the case head. The ability of the case head to withstand high pressure is dependent on the hardness of the brass too. It has demonstrated by Bob Hagle in. Handloader Magazine article about 50 years ago that higher Brinnel hardness case heads withstood higher pressures in the 7mm Rem Mag. He cut off the case bodies and measured the hardness of the case heads between the belt and the flash hole.


Reloaders; I have been told the military case is heavier because it is thicker. A lot of reloaders talked about it but I had trouble finding a reloader that weighed and or measuring.

I told them if there was any truth it could only be a half-truth. All of my surplus 30/06 cases had a case head thickness of .200" when measured from the cup above the web to the case head. I compared the surplus cases to Remington 30/06 cases. The Remington case head had a thickness of .260"; that meant nothing to another reloader but if the Remington case head is .060" thicker the case head has to be heavier than a case head with a thickness of .200". It was then I realized I was not talking to a group that could keep up.

They were weak on case head protrusion but that did not slow me down, I recommended the Remington case with the thick case head for safety. I wasted my time but just in case there was a reloader that was interested I did not want to miss them.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Thickness of the case head may or may not be significant.

I would agree if you understood why the Remington case with the thick case head is safer than then the thousands of cases I have that are .200" thick.

F. Guffey

[Lead pot]

A .220 Swift is even worse for pressure spikes necking down .270 brass I used before the .25-06 was a factory load. Makes for sticky bolts if you don't trim the necks.

[fguffey]

OK with rimmed cases, but with rimless the explosion of the primer drives the case forward, and with a light load there isn't enough pressure to drive it back again.

"with a light load there is not enough pressure etc." I have very few friends among reloaders because I believe had there been enough pressure to blow the case head back the case would stretch between the case head and case body.

I form first and then fire form. Problem; component manufacturers do not manufacturer cases for reloaders that know what they are doing. Remington manufactured cylinder brass for wildcat case forming. The cases were 2.650" long with out a shoulder. The last time I checked 20 cases cost $40.00. After the 30/06 case the 280 Remington is the second favorite.

F. Guffey

[Lead pot]

A light load with the double base powder is just as dangerous as an over load. A light load has a good chance getting flashover from the hot primer igniting the whole load instead of a progressive burn load.
I have seen two rifles that fragmented from light down loads. (not mine) both shooters ended up in the hospital.

[M-Tecs]

A .220 Swift is even worse for pressure spikes

Under what conditions? Tight or long neck or just general loading?

Some interesting reading here.

http://reloadammo.com/liteload.htm

[Lead pot]

Under what conditions? Tight or long neck or just general loading?

Some interesting reading here.

http://reloadammo.com/liteload.htm


There will always be disagreements and I been doing it for many years comments on this subject.
I don't know what the load combinations were except they were reduced loads. One rifle was a Win 64 in a .30-30 caliber and the other was a Ruger all weather in the .338 Win Mag caliber.
That's all I can tell about them. The All weather got my attention because I had one back then that had a light narrow thin synthetic stock that weight around 5#. I got it for my Alaskan Kayak trip when I retired down the Yukon River. Light and fairly short ideal for a trip of two months in the bush. But very harsh on the recoil.

[M-Tecs]

Not disagreeing at all on the light loading issue. I've personally seen one mostly unexplained blowup and I have read a lot on the subject and I still don't know what to believe. The posted link was for just general info.

The question I have for you was under what conditions you found the .220 Swift to have pressure spikes?

[Teddy (punchie)]

Double ignition theory- basically look at the powder in the case shaped like an hour glass. The back end or the powder at bolt face blows over the powder setting in the body to shoulder area of the case. Next the second ignition making presser waves going off the scale, reacting with one an other.

Why?
How?

Moister when loading? Type of powder? Load too light?

Ackley use two powder loads to blow the 6.5 and 7.7 Jap actions, after full charge powder loads wouldn't.

[M-Tecs]

Some interesting discussion here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?281976-KABOOM-through-SEE-what-truth-lies-in-this

[Teddy (punchie)]

Shotgun ? What was the powder and charge of powder?

[Teddy (punchie)]

If I recall 25-06 is one of the beast that the double ignition theory based on. 6.5 -06 . .257 compared .264 basically they same beast.

[Lead pot]

Not disagreeing at all on the light loading issue. I've personally seen one mostly unexplained blowup and I have read a lot on the subject and I still don't know what to believe. The posted link was for just general info.

The question I have for you was under what conditions you found the .220 Swift to have pressure spikes?


Oh Man...now your taking me back to the late 50's :)
I had a Mod. 54 ? Winchester with in the .220 and I loved that rifle shot very well and busted the Fox too much for selling the hides but the ears had a $5. bounty on them.
What I found with the .220 was loading it with a 55 gr bullet over the 40 that was really the factory load the powder had to be reduced accordantly as normal but I found after carrying the rifle muzzle down and bringing it up to shoot I found deep crater primers and they disappeared by first raising the muzzle and lowering it to shoot. Back then I was using 3031 and 4064 as well as Alcan powder.
Actually the shell is a fairly low pressure cartridge by other .22 calibers that surprised me with the pressure signs like cratered primers and sticking bolts. When that barrel burned out in a short time I build a wildcat in the .22 Varminter what is now the .22-250 and this cartridge has a higher pressure curve than the .220 and I never seen the same issue as with the .220. I think it is the low volume of powder in the large capacity case that caused the pressure spikes I saw.

Forgot to mention,

I formed a lot of my cases from the .270 and not turning the necks down showed pressure signs also from the tighter case necks increasing bullet release.

[M-Tecs]

The Winchesters Mod. 54 was only made in .220 Swift for one year then they switched to the Model 70. Winchester didn't have the barrel steel issues figured out for the Swift in the early years so as you experienced the same barrel life issues everyone else had with the early ones.

I've burnt out three Swift barrels mostly shooting prairie dogs. As long as case sizing is minimal I have found the Swift to be one of the most forgiving and least spiky high performance cases I have ever loaded.

I am currently running it's ballistic twin in the 22-250AI. I switched because I have a lot of Tikka 22-250 take off barrels from building match rifles on Tikka 595's. That is the most unforgiving pressure spiky cartridge I have ever had the displeasure of owning. If I ever burn out my 8 or 9 remaining barrels it I will go back to the Swift which I love. The 22-250AI not so much.

[Lead pot]

Don't get me wrong, I liked the .220 but I did have the pressure problem with having to slap the bolt sometimes. I replaced it with the .22 Varminter I build a year before joining up in the service on a Czech VZ 24 98 Mauser action it has shot many rounds through it enough when looking down the muzzle the rifling is barely visible but it still shoots.
y'all stay safe and hold tight......Kurt

262830262831262832

[M-Tecs]

Nice rifle is that a Fajen or a Richard's Micro fit stock? They both had that design. I don't remember if Bishop did.

[Lead pot]

It's a Fajan. I got it from Herters around 1961
Here is the rest of the wood.
262835

[M-Tecs]

Zebra wood? I was looking at the design from Fajen about dozen years later with a zebra wood tip and grip cap but I went with a Richards Microfit in a thumbhole design. Learned the thumbhole stocks and boltguns are not a match made in heaven. Wished I went with the Fajen like yours.

[Lead pot]

I'm, not sure what the wood is. It has a Oak type grain but I thought it looked nice in the Catalog :)

In my eyes the black stocks will never replace good wood. I have only one rifle in my safes that has a composition stock and that is a 700 Rem Varmint synthetic in the .308 calibre even then it's gray :)

[midnight]

That stock looks typical of what Herters was selling in the late 60's. I have one I rechambered to 30-338. I believe it has the most painful recoil of all I own & I shoot a 50 BMG. The floorplate flies open on each shot. Don't shoot it much any more.

Bob

[EDG]

The thickness alone means nothing if the brass is softer.
The only way to know is to load until the primer pockets expand.


I would agree if you understood why the Remington case with the thick case head is safer than then the thousands of cases I have that are .200" thick.

F. Guffey

D

[M-Tecs]

The thickness alone means nothing if the brass is softer.
The only way to know is to load until the primer pockets expand.


Yup, Federal and Norma tend to be on the softer side. Lots of the long range competitors determine what the max pressure they are willing to run by when number of fires before the primer pocket loosens. For me I liked to get 8 -10 loadings before loose primer pockets became an issue. Federal always gave me about half of that. I never shot that much Norma but what I did seemed soft also.

[fguffey]

The thickness alone means nothing if the brass is softer.
The only way to know is to load until the primer pockets expand.

Again, I said the thicker case head was the safer case. I did not distinguish between one case head being soft and the other being work hardened.


The only way to know is to load until the primer pockets expand.

I will have to say you have limited skills, while the primer pocket is expanding there has to be other things going. You need to be aware or you have chosen to ignore 'other things going on'.

Bart B fired a 308W case 43 times with full loads with no measurable effect; and I do not believe him.

F. Guffey

[blackthorn]

Interesting thread. By way of a bit of background, several years ago I acquired a Savage 99 High-Power rifle. Brass is almost unobtainable so I reformed some from 30-30 brass using a 25-35 intermediate sizing die. I started with some old Dominion brass, which I have found to be excellent in its original caliber. My failure rate was over 50%. I wound up (after some experimentation) using Federal brass as the donor cases. With the Federal cases I lost very few. After forming a bunch of cases, lack of easily obtained projectiles (either jacketed or cast) caused me to let that project languish. So here are my questions; softer brass does not stand up to as many reloads as harder brass yes/no? Brass "work-hardens" with use yes/no? Cases, when being reformed, often have a significant number of failures (crushed cases). So, if we reform cases using softer brass (i.e. Federal) does the work hardening during the reforming process help/hinder the expected overall case life once the case is successfully reformed??

[Texas by God]

That stock is a Fajen "Regent" model IIRC. As far as thick necks; when Remington brought out the 7mm-08 my brother bought one. In a hurry to shoot it with no factory ammo available- we necked down .308 brass and got bolt sticking pressure with starting loads. We switched to fire forming. 243 brass and the problems went away. That 788 7-08 was crazy loud and crazy accurate with its 18-1/2" barrel.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[fguffey]

I can not share the details because the details would not be appreciated.

I was offered a deal on what appeared to be 30/06 national match cases that had never been loaded before from dealer that claimed he purchased the cases from iron and metal yard. The cases had the appearance of being magnificent cases. I purchased all the cases he had and then started loading and shooting. About the third time around I came across a warning about the case. It was claimed the manufacturer changed the process for manufacturing cases, it was said they reduced the number of time the cases were annealed.

So here are my questions; softer brass does not stand up to as many reloads as harder brass yes/no? Brass "work-hardens" with use yes/no? Cases, when being reformed, often have a significant number of failures (crushed cases). So, if we reform cases using softer brass (i.e. Federal) does the work hardening during the reforming process help/hinder the expected overall case life once the case is successfully reformed??
MY thinking: The cases I fired from the batch should have had catastrophic failure if the case heads were soft, on the other hand if the eliminated annealing process resulted in the case head being worked harden I could have had a case head that that was too hard to expand; meaning the case head could rupture.

Later a friend knew he was not going to live forever so he called to ask me if I was interested in cleaning out his shop. While cleaning out his shop I found more of the recalled cases that he had fired. He was one that tested everything to the max. I added the cases to my collectable cases.

Had the case heads been soft they would have expanded to much during firing to be usable before they would have become work hardened.

Forming cases does work harden the cases. I do not form cases that are not new or once fired. I do not form cases without a forming die, I have 16 forming dies.

And then there is necking up and or down; both procedure work harden the neck.

F. Guffey

[EDG]

Primer pocket expansion is the primary indicator of case head expansion. The expansion of the case at the pressure ring is a secondary indicator of pressure as is sticky extraction.
If there are "other"things going on maybe you could identify them?


Again, I said the thicker case head was the safer case. I did not distinguish between one case head being soft and the other being work hardened.



I will have to say you have limited skills, while the primer pocket is expanding there has to be other things going. You need to be aware or you have chosen to ignore 'other things going on'.

Bart B fired a 308W case 43 times with full loads with no measurable effect; and I do not believe him.

F. Guffey

[M-Tecs]

I can not share the details because the details would not be appreciated.



If you have real information that is always appreciated. Incoherent ramblings and condescending put-downs not so much.

[fguffey]

If you have real information that is always appreciated. Incoherent ramblings and condescending put-downs not so much.


"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."

– Amber Veal


F. Guffey

[M-Tecs]

F. Guffey, apparently you have no real useful information to even base an agreement or disagreement on?????????? If you did you would be willing to share.

If you backed these statements will any information up we might all learn something. That is why most of us are here.


I can not share the details because the details would not be appreciated.




I will have to say you have limited skills, while the primer pocket is expanding there has to be other things going. You need to be aware or you have chosen to ignore 'other things going on'.





It seems it is impossible for reloaders to understand it is not possible to have cases lengthen from the shoulder to the case head and shorten from then end of the neck to the case head.




I have thought it would be nice if I checked the origin and then I thought about it; I believe I would have trouble finding anyone that would appreciate the effort.



I have very few friends among reloaders because I believe had there been enough pressure to blow the case head back the case would stretch between the case head and case body.



I can only suspect other reloaders do not know how to check the chamber and bolt arrangment. Others are convinsed the firing pin strikes the primer and then the firing pin drives the case, powder and bullet forward until the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder of the chamber. Anyhow, when reloaders start making this stuff up it gets impossible to explain.



I wasted my time but just in case there was a reloader that was interested I did not want to miss them.


Well you are missing all of us since you are unwilling or unable to share the information that apparently only you have the capacity to understand. Please enlighten the uniformed what we don't understand about reloading and casting. Maybe we will learn something useful.

[1hole]

... So here are my questions; softer brass does not stand up to as many reloads as harder brass yes/no?

It's not that simple Thorney; harder vs. soft brass is a relative thing because both are pretty hard. "Harder brass" can take a little more pressure for a short time but, being harder already, it work hardens faster and can split early. "Soft brass" is quite a bit more tolerant and resistant to work hardening but excess pressure distorts it sooner, meaning softer cases mean more rapidly expanded primer pockets and sticky extraction IF the loads are much hotter than they should be.


Brass "work-hardens" with use yes/no?

Yes. But the degree it gets worked in firing and resizing varies a lot. Rate of hardening depends on how extreme the loader resizes his cases i.e., jammed as far into an FL sizer as they can go OR sized just enough so the shoulder is returned to the fired position - which, because of normal length spring back, is usually a couple thou less than chamber length. AND it matters how loose the chamber dimensions are when compared to the internal dimensions of the sizer die, especially the neck.

<As a side issue, excessive shoulder set back is the real cause of head separations and that's entirely controllable by the loader. When cases are sized correctly, meaning to fit the specific chamber they will be used in, "excessive headspace" for a bottle neck chamber won't matter.>

Excessively work hardened bodies and necks make for early lengthwise splits. I prefer a sizing combo of a body die combined with Lee's Collet Neck Dies, they do the needed resizing work with an absolute minimum of brass working.


Cases, when being reformed, often have a significant number of failures (crushed cases).

Losses in reforming for small changes won't be much but collapse with massive change failures are more common. The degree of case change at each step matters; a good set of reforming dies, one with small steps, AND a really good sizing lube (that's Hornady's Unique for me) will make a huge difference in case reforming losses.


So, if we reform cases using softer brass (i.e. Federal) does the work hardening during the reforming process help/hinder the expected overall case life once the case is successfully reformed??

Good question; I ask back, are you doing major or minor reforming? The reforming thing is a "once and done" event and I doubt that's enough to make a significant change in life expectancy.

I make .22-250 cases from 70+ year old Lake City surplus .30-06 cases; I consider that to be massive. But, after I finally learned how to do it properly, my cases fit my chamber and I rarely have a reforming failure. Then, with proper resizing (meaning minimum working of the cases), I get more than 20 hot loads (and still counting!) with rare (harmless) splits and NO observable head stretching.

So, bottom line, and like so many other questions in reloading, the only correct answer to your questions is, "It depends on a lot of things." (None of which specifically includes Mr. Guffy's thousands of thick case heads! :))

[M-Tecs]

All brass cases are not created equal. The brass alloys do vary between manufacturers. Same for the stamping, forming and the annealing processes. When and how the manufacture deals with the inprocess work hardening varies.

https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/life-expectancy-factors-that-affect-cartridge-case-life/83699

The useful life of a cartridge case usually ends with an excessively expanded primer pocket or a split neck, and several factors can determine the number of firings it will withstand before calling it quits.

When a case reaches the final step in its forming process at the factory, work-hardening has made the brass quite hard over its entire length. The head of the case is left that way for strength, but its neck and shoulder are annealed to make them softer and more elastic.

If you bend a wire coat hanger back and forth repeatedly, it will eventually break at that point because it has lost its elasticity. That's work-hardening. The same thing happens when a cartridge is fired and then reloaded: Its neck expands away from the bullet, and sizing it back to its original diameter during the reloading process causes it to become harder — just like the coat hanger.


Expand and resize the neck often enough and it will eventually lose its elasticity and split. Softening the necks of cases by annealing as required will prevent this from happening.

A case with greater hardness in its head area will withstand higher chamber pressures before its primer pocket expands than will a case that's softer in that area. Manufacturers of commercial ammunition have never agreed on exactly how hard the head of a case should be, and there are no better examples of this than 6.5-284 Norma brass made by Norma and Lapua. A maximum load that will give long life in a Lapua case will expand the primer pocket beyond use in a Norma case in three to five firings.

Same for Federal 308 cases. With Winchester or Lapua I normally get 10 plus loadings before loose primer pockets are an issue. With Federal I would get about half of that. I haven't shot a lot of Norma brass except for the 6mm XC. Vary consistent brass but had the same softer head primer pocket loosening issues compared to Winchester brass. Remington tends to run on the softer side also.

How Cartridge Brass is Made
https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/how-cartridge-brass-is-made/

[M-Tecs]

Some actual tests on case head hardness. Note how soft Remington is.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-hard-is-your-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/comment-page-1/

How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests
Lake City vs. Lapua — which brass is harder? And how about Remington vs. Winchester? Is the widely-held belief that Win brass is harder than Rem brass really true? To help settle these burning questions (raised in a Forum thread), Forum member Catshooter recently sampled the base hardness of four brands of .223/5.56 brass. He employed a very impressive tool for the task — a $2,500 Ames Hardness Gauge. Catshooter explained that his Ames Guage “is FAA certified and approved for testing aircraft engine parts — it does NOT get any better than that!”

Catshooter measured four cases picked at random from batches of Lake City (LC) 2008 (5.56x45mm), Lapua .223 Rem Match, Winchester .223 Rem, and Remington R-P .223 Rem.


Lake City Lapua Match Winchester Remington
Photo Shows Ames Gauge Base Hardness Measurement on Lake City Brass
.223 Remington Lake City Brass Hardness Lapua Winchester 5.56x45

Photo Show Ames Gauge Base Hardness Measurement on Winchester Brass
.223 Remington Lake City Brass Hardness Lapua Winchester 5.56x45

TEST RESULTS
Using Rockwell hardness standards (.062″x100kg, Rockwell “B”), the brass measured as follows:

LC 2008 = 96

Lapua 223 Match = 86

Winchester 223 = 69

Remington “R-P” = 49

Summary of Test Results
Catshooter writes: “For all you guys that have believed that Winchester cases were tougher than Remington — you are vindicated, they are a lot tougher! However, Lake City and Lapua are ‘the pick of the litter'”. Catshooter notes that both Lake City and Lapua are significantly harder than either Winchester and Remington .223 brass. That’s something that we’ve observed empirically (Lapua and LC stand up better to stout loads), but now we have some hard numbers to back that up. Hats off to Catshooter for settling the hardness debate with his Ames Hardness Gauge.

[fguffey]

"It depends on a lot of things." (None of which specifically includes Mr. Guffy's thousands of thick case heads!

When reloaders are claiming surplus cases are heavier than commercial cases reloaders believe all of these ferry tales are correct. They should start the story with "Once upon a time".

I disagree with reloaders that make claims they can move the shoulder of a case back when sizing. And then there is that very large group that go down the rabbit hole believing they understand neck tension.

The thick headed cases are not my thick headed cases, I was like all other reloaders that are just ignorant about these matters.


I made an effort to determine if commercial cases were heavier than arsenal cases. One of the first discoveries was the case head thickness of surplus brass. The case heads were .200" thick. I do not know of another reloader that has ever measured the thickness of a case head. And then I started on R-P 30/06 cases; the case head thickness was .260" thick. I should not have to tell reloaders the case with the .260" thick case head has to be heavier on the case head than the surplus case heads that are .200" etc. etc. etc.

And then I said the .260" thick R-P cases had to be safer than the cases with the .200" case head.

And again I should not have to explain to all the reloaders why the .260" case head is safer but I do.

And then there is the difference between two 30/06 cases with different case head thicknesses?

F. Guffey

[EDG]

You claim that the thicker head is stronger but claiming does not provide any proof.
To prove you are correct you would have to run destructive tests on a variety of cases. That is fire the cases with loads that expand the case heads.


When reloaders are claiming surplus cases are heavier than commercial cases reloaders believe all of these ferry tales are correct. They should start the story with "Once upon a time".

I disagree with reloaders that make claims they can move the shoulder of a case back when sizing. And then there is that very large group that go down the rabbit hole believing they understand neck tension.

The thick headed cases are not my thick headed cases, I was like all other reloaders that are just ignorant about these matters.


I made an effort to determine if commercial cases were heavier than arsenal cases. One of the first discoveries was the case head thickness of surplus brass. The case heads were .200" thick. I do not know of another reloader that has ever measured the thickness of a case head. And then I started on R-P 30/06 cases; the case head thickness was .260" thick. I should not have to tell reloaders the case with the .260" thick case head has to be heavier on the case head than the surplus case heads that are .200" etc. etc. etc.

And then I said the .260" thick R-P cases had to be safer than the cases with the .200" case head.

And again I should not have to explain to all the reloaders why the .260" case head is safer but I do.

And then there is the difference between two 30/06 cases with different case head thicknesses?

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

You claim that the thicker head is stronger but claiming does not provide any proof.
To prove you are correct you would have to run destructive tests on a variety of cases. That is fire the cases with loads that expand the case heads.

I disagree, I had no ideal I was talking to reloaders that can not carry the problem beyond the primer pocket increasing in diameter. I can not will this stuff to happen, it happens; I measure before and again after. I can not get the expansion to focus on the primer pocket expanding.

You claimed you had a bladed micrometer and I was impressed; I have at least 15. There are better tools, methods and or techniques.

If I had to measure the diameter of the flash hole with pin gages I would not measure the flash hole because? there are better tools.

F. Guffey

[1hole]

Guffy, everyone who has read (and struggled to understand) even a few of your vainglorious proclimations knows you have more of everything than God and are certain you have god-like knowledge of all things firearms related. What we rarely see is any evidence of your own understanding of whatever you post about.

Examples: FL dies can and do set case shoulders back and no one but you has even mentioned how "heavy" some case heads might be so once again you're vaguely arguing with yourself. Sadly, I can't recall a single instance where your flamboyant self promoting posts have actually contributed anything useful to a discussion.

[M-Tecs]

I disagree, I had no ideal I was talking to reloaders that can not carry the problem beyond the primer pocket increasing in diameter. I can not will this stuff to happen, it happens; I measure before and again after. I can not get the expansion to focus on the primer pocket expanding.


OK tell us what we are missing??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????

[ulav8r]

Thicker heads mean stronger cases "MAYBE" if the hardness and chemistry of each is equal, but if they differ in hardness or composition further testing is needed to prove the thicker head is stronger. JMHO.

[M-Tecs]

Thicker heads mean stronger cases "MAYBE" if the hardness and chemistry of each is equal, but if they differ in hardness or composition further testing is needed to prove the thicker head is stronger. JMHO.

Yep that would be true. Also stronger is a relatively meaningless term when applied to SAAMI loads and SAAMI cartridges. They may be different in thickness, hardness or alloy composition, however, they are all strong enough for the task at hand.

Same for the term "safe" they are all safe with SAAMI loads. As to which is more or the most safe that is dependent on the cartridge and chamber/bolt face/firearm design and what unsafe condition is going to induce a failure.

With unsupported hand gun chambers and some cartridge combinations in coned breech rifle actions a thicker head MIGHT give an additional safety margin to blowing or bulging the unsupported area. Short of that a thicker head offers little or no advantage.

The term safer is highly dependent on what happens once pressure exceed the case strength. In a rifle like a Remington 700 and a load exceeding 65,000 PSI the primer is the weakest link, next is the primer pocket. As pressures increase the primer will first blank than it will pierce. As pressures go up from there the primer pocket greatly expands and the flashhole is blown out. In this scenario harder case heads would appear to be the "safest" since they would prevent or reduce the amount of gas released into the action from a overpressure load. Having used the AMU V-8 running in the 77,000 to 78,000 PSI harder case heads are "safer" than a softer case head regardless of thickness.

Once pressure gets higher the case head will pressure weld to the bolt face. On a AR15 type rifle the case head will fail and blow out at the extractor and the extractor will blow out. The barrel may or may not fail at this pressure. On a Rem 700 the fully enclosed bolt face will hold the case head together but the primer pocket expands greatly venting all the gas through the bolt. In both the 700 and AR15 the case will also separate in front of the web at these pressures. What is left of the top of the case is mostly pressure welded to the chamber walls.

This is based on inspecting a couple of dozen blown or damage rifles.

[Alferd Packer]

A lot of the old timers liked to use a chronometer when they became available to incorporate velocity as a check and kept records to note a change.
Also their loads were cautious " medium" pressure loads to start the record of velocity.
They usually didn't start with redline tests like I have seen almost universally since the seventies.
Many new powders available today and l
think more chances to vary the testing mix.
Every firearm is a law into itself hasn't changed, even with CNC added to the pot.
I don't have anything to add to what was posted earlier except that many experimenters and inventors can profit by keeping records, and starting a little lower when starting to load for a cartridge, checking velocity and recording it, then move up in increments and record velocity.
Any changes made in neck turning, trim length, case capacity, and powder type, lot and grain weight.
There are more variables too, but if you skip over the basics and just try a Max load without starting low and ramping up, you are like a cave explorer trying to get by without a light .
Exploring in the dark.
God Bless all here.