MZ Design/Build... would like to discuss with pros...

[Old Ironsights]

I've got an idea for a novel design and need someone to tell me why it won't work... that or will consent to working on a really wild idea project... :twisted:

[ktw]

The pros (and semi-pros) hang out here (http://www.americanlongrifles.com/). They tend to be a fairly traditional crowd.

-ktw

[corey012778]

I have even seen an ar15 muzzy (an video clip). what can be wilder then that.

[Old Ironsights]

Traditionalists don't like me. I have a Stainless Steel & Black Plastic Externally ignited caseless ammunition .50 sniper rifle.

(Flintlock.)

I have evil designs on combining traditional gun elements in ways that, to my knowledge, have not been combined before - then doing it in Stainless on a Carbon/Glass/Polimer stock.

:twisted:

[Potsy]

Old Ironsights,
Pitch the ideas on out there! I've been looking into building my own for about a year now and sometime in the next year I'll start with a nice kit and go from there.
I've had quite a few ideas over the course of years, and found most of them had already been done (a long time ago in most cases), I just needed to build them all in one rifle.
So what's on your mind? I'm curious.

[Underclocked]

http://swinglock.net/traditional.htm :)

[missionary5155]

I have my prefrences ...as do you ! I am inclined to MILITARY models as these firearms were possible used more than any other type in the settlement and conquest of what we have inherited as the United States of America.
BUT every new inovation was another step forward in firepower and utility. So hey have at it. It does not depend on my likes or dislikes. If it all depended on me we just might still be using a matchlock and turning our noses at them new fangled wheellock contraptions.

[Potsy]

I've thought for years that an English Sporting Caplock in .40-.45 caliber with a fast twist for long conical bullets and heavy powder charges but in a relatively lightweight rifle may be, for me the ultimate. Throw in a few modern amenities such as a nice thick recoil pad and a good modern easily adjustable, easy to use in the field peep sight or tang sight, and you're there.

Of course, one a bit heavier in .62 caliber with Forsythe rifling running 340 grain balls and 150 grains of powder would be way cool too.

The only thing to rival the ignition of the late english percussion guns (I want to say it was called a patent breech) is the inline. And since there are inlines dating back to the 1840's,
it's hard to call it a modern develpment.

I also like for my deer rifles to point like bird guns, another plus for the english sporting rifle.

[northmn]

In my opinion the English rifles were about as close to a "modern" gun as can be had and perfectly designed. Straight comb parralel with the bore and a nice wide flat buttplate to handle recoil. I am currently going to start making an English inspired rifle in flint. I call them inspired because it would be very difficult to match the quality of an original English gun. One person did not build them. Their theories on bore size may have been a little over done but were quite sound. I built a rifle for an individual in 62. He went out and killed an 8 point buck with it before the finish cured. He used 70 grains of powder or so. The English did not always use that heavy a load in their rifles. Inlines were patened in the 1840's but never saw enough use to be significant as was an underhammer flint.

DP

[FL-Flinter]

Flint underhammers are just way cool! I'm going to build one ... one of these days!

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

Check this out. I would love to try one on a Moose Hunt here in Maine

http://www.mainehuntingtoday.com/magazine/Reviews/bad_bull.html


I do like that swinglock. It would be interesting to make a double trigger lock and barrel in 12 GA SXS for Waterfowl hunting. hint!


How about a Swinglock lever action with tube fed 209 primers for super quick reloads. a repeater muzzloader if you will.

[northmn]

Flinter, I have all kinds of ideas for what I am going to build one of these days, including a double flint shotgun. Will be to darn old to shoot it likely but I am going to build one. Need to find the barrels cheap at a gun show or off a wall hanger. Just built a single barrel shotgun out of a $5.00 barrel and action I picked up at a gun show and a bunch of spare parts I have accumulated over the years. Used a Nock style breech at about 1 1/2 inches to accomodate the chamber length and keep the barrel over 30"

Northmn

[FL-Flinter]

I got tired of messing with old parts unless I'm restoring them for what they are. For the cost of a new lock & bbl, I can't see putting the time into building something w/o using new parts.

I'm going to do the flint underhammer, I just need to get about 500 other things done first...many of them on my "honey do" list! LOL

[boommer]

For me a Allen box lock 1-18 twist .457 bore just a long ranger with a tang and globe.This is the rifle I would like to build. someday

[northmn]

Ah Flinter, its fun to be cheap. For me its a hobby and using a $5.00 barrel, a buttplate (in good shape) I picked up for a dollar at a gun show, my own stock made from a tree I cut, a lock someone else cobbled up that I got for a song and fixed up, was fun. The rest of the parts were just parts I bought and had laying around due to changing my mind, no different than buying new. I doubt if I layed out more than $125 for that gun. It would sell for a little more than that. I definitely would not want to make every gun that way, but this one was fun. Were I to make a living at it I would use new parts. Its kind of like using precarved stocks or sending them off to get the barrel inletted and the ramrod hole drilled.. They pay for the real artists that can engrave and carve. For me its more fun to start with a blank. Were I to buy a Chambers kit I would feel like the gun was built by me and Chambers. I recommend them to beginners.

Northmn

[FL-Flinter]

Northmn,

I build for a living and I'm with you on the kit guns, some are far better than others but it's nowhere near the same as starting with a blank. I've done many kit guns, some came in new when the purchaser opened the box, took one look and decided it wasn't what they expected - many come in various stages of completetion for as many reasons as there are owners.

When it comes to building my own, I always seem to end up selling them so I can't afford to take chances with any unknown parts. I work from blanks and depending on the style or customer's desires, I'll make my own trigger, trigger guard, thimbles, buttplate, ect. The more parts you make, the more you become connected with the gun your building but sometimes it's just not cost-effective or time-effective.

I've been saving this for something special, I just don't know what yet...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/cocobolo.jpg

[smokemjoe]

Igot a pile of butt plates that I am going to sell if someone woud take them all.Also maybe other parts, I have built 37 rifles and getting burned out, 3 more to go yet.

[northmn]

Flinter, that stock looks intriguing. Make a beautiful gun but I think it may be a challenge to work with the grain running the way it does. Still it would be pretty.
Smokem. I ran into the burnout thing a while back and hadn't built a gun in maybe 10 years. Been rebit and like doing it again. May last couple of guns showed it. I can see a few shortcuts I wouldn't do now. Now I just build what the mood calls for. Into English styled guns now. Maybe build one or two a year now.

Northmn

[smokemjoe]

I keep looking at the wood, WoW. its nice, I had the fever for curly maple, I would drive up in Mich. looking for hard curly maple, then down to Friendship and look it all over. Then into W.V., I like to built Southernmountain rifles. 48 in. barrels, 30 to 45 cal.. Nice piece of wood, What kind of wood is it. Joe

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/79E8B23CAB84AC7/standard.jpg

..............I built the above British Long Range Match rifle from a kit from Pecatonica River several years ago. Nice kit. Not really a beginners kit but a lot of the work had been done. Nice Green Mountain 45 cal 18" twist octagon bbl. It has a patent breech and a breakoff breech. Missing on the breech's snail is a blowout plug.

http://www.fototime.com/103B7CD70CB7B7A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/BE135D6E73B7ADE/standard.jpg

Problems with the kit is that the L&R lock is a ***. A rifle like this deserves a better lock. The one positive is that it has an exceedingly short fall. The tang is too short to mount a tang sight, so it has to be lengthened. No forend tip supplied, or even available. The front sight I used, while not period authentic at least LOOKS somewhat period and is windage adjustable.

To make a really nice hunting rifle all you'd need were hunting type sights, and to fit a couple ramrod thimbles and drill the stock for the ramrod. Possibly a patchbox also.

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

Patched 530gr boolits I use over an 85.0gr charge of Elephant 2Fg. Pretty close to a 45-90.

..................Buckshot

[FL-Flinter]

Northmn, It's definitely got figure but very tight solid grain, sharp tools and paying attention to the cut will be a must.

Smokemjoe, I'm told it's red cocobolo from south America. It's hard, heavy and pretty - I've been thinking of two possibities for this one; it's either going on a .66cal Jaeger or a "for when you really mean it" suppository rifle.

[FL-Flinter]

Buckshot,

I like that rifle, stock tip looks ebony? How is that 1:18 twist with fouling and how deep is the rifling? What rear sight do you have on it?

I'll bet the lock was purchased as a kit - I've seen it before with both L&R and Siler locks, two of the best locks money can buy destroyed and given a bad name by yahoo's that have not a clue what they're doing!

[northmn]

Buckshot, I have wanted to build a rifle like that. Due to my use of BPC I haven,e done so. Always thought it would be fun to show the "modern" muzzleloaders that Grandpa may have knew what he was doing when he built rifles and loaded ammo for them.

Nortnmn

[WickedGoodOutdoors]

Northmn,

I've been saving this for something special, I just don't know what yet...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/markkw/cocobolo.jpg


How about using that stock for a Bronze Barrelled Blunderbuss Flintlock! Check out this national park one.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nps.gov/history/museum/exhibits/revwar/image_gal/morrimg/web_exhibit/Blunderbuss_MORR2155.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nps.gov/history/museum/exhibits/revwar/image_gal/morrimg/blunderbuss.html&usg=__n5-gzUYnW5nKL__D0ViRl04Lduw=&h=224&w=540&sz=16&hl=en&start=21&tbnid=NIRG9qvnbQO1lM:&tbnh=55&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrass%2Bblunderbuss%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3D en

[waksupi]

I've had a fair amount of experience doing stock work. And, I would suggest, to make that into a light recoiling firearm. Heavy recoil, and nice grain, are not friends.

[smokemjoe]

Buckshot : How you get that PPB started in the bore, No false muzzel,How does it shoot at 100 yds. I had 2 Big Large barrels once that I was going to make something like that up a 38 and a 45 cal. Thanks- Joe

[boommer]

Buckshot I live close to Pecatonic I've talk to to Dick Greensides and him told what was trying to do and he showed me the Allen box lock action it has a tang so I don't have to weld one on and it's fairly straight and it's inclosed so it strong. the reason I want to go with a cartridge barrel is I have alot of different molds. The paper patching is something just short of going to find the paper this something I want to get into. I'm going to dick's home today with a buddy of mine to pick up a few things (mostly BS) I have a nice piece of osage log to carve up for this project. JUST NEED to finance this, work is slow(construction) sucks now!!

[Buckshot]

..............FL-Flinter, " I like that rifle, stock tip looks ebony? How is that 1:18 twist with fouling and how deep is the rifling? What rear sight do you have on it?

Yes the forend tip is Ebony, but I had to go elsewhere as Pecatonica doesn't carry (or didn't) forend tips. I don't have much of a fouling issue at all. Basically it will begin to build a fouling ring at the bullet base, but that is after several shots. These rifles operate at a comparatively high pressure for a ML'er and I thnk that helps with non-fouling.

The Green Mountain barrel is .450" x .458", so the grooves are a common 0.004" deep. The rear sight is one I made up. It's and Italian tang sight that has been doctored up. I cut the original base off the staff and welded on the steel block, then slotted it to fit the attachement lug I'd welded on the tang. It was polished all over then fire blued.

If you notice on the lug on the tang there is a groove? On top there is a shallow detent hole. There is a hole drilled vertically through the block the sight staff is welded to. Inside the hole is a ejector plunger and spring from an M1 Garand. The top of the hole is D&T'd and a slotted setscrew captures them. The plunger rides the groove then drops into the hole to keep the staff upright, but it will fold forward if pushed.

"I'll bet the lock was purchased as a kit - I've seen it before with both L&R and Siler locks, two of the best locks money can buy destroyed and given a bad name by yahoo's that have not a clue what they're doing! "

I don't know, as the lock was assembled. It was a typical modern ML'er mass produced sidelock. Cast parts finished on a bench grinder. There IS a fly on the tumbler, but crudely done, and the notches on the tumber were off axis. The axles of the tumbler were more square then round I cleaned then up, drilled out the lockplate and made a bushing. Finally a rifle like this needs a 3 pin lock with the trigger hung on it's own pinion instead of a bridle screw.

................northmn, " Buckshot, I have wanted to build a rifle like that. Due to my use of BPC I haven,e done so. Always thought it would be fun to show the "modern" muzzleloaders that Grandpa may have knew what he was doing when he built rifles and loaded ammo for them."

Consider that this is basically a copy of what the Irish team used at the First Creedmore match in 1874. The British had been shooting these and similar (Whitworths, Rigby's, Gibbs, Turners, etc) since the late 1850's and refined as they learned.

..................smokemjoe, " Buckshot : How you get that PPB started in the bore, No false muzzel,How does it shoot at 100 yds. I had 2 Big Large barrels once that I was going to make something like that up a 38 and a 45 cal. Thanks- Joe"

Joe, the slugs are swaged to .443" and then wrapped with 9lb paper, and when dry are at .450". In a clean barrel they will slowly drop of their own weight down to the wad. After a few shots they still start easily in the muzzle. You can lay the tip of your index finger on the boolit's nose and push it in with no effort. The weight of the range rod will deliver it smoothly to the wad.

What makes a differance is if you have to wait between shots, especially if it's a warm day. If you can shoot, then unhurridly reload you can shoot again. If you have to wait and the bore 'cooks', then you'll have to wipe to the wad (damp patch, dry patch) before loading the lubed slug.

Accuracy at 100 yards runs about 2.5" to 3". Accuracy at 220 yards is about the same. At 100 yards you can see the slug is still sometimes hunting. These are a bit different then the Hawken or Pennsylvania type everyone thinks of when you say, "Muzzle loader rifle" :-)

................Buckshot

[FL-Flinter]

I've had a fair amount of experience doing stock work. And, I would suggest, to make that into a light recoiling firearm. Heavy recoil, and nice grain, are not friends.

This stuff is tight grained and quite durable, the more twists & turns it has, the less prone it is to splitting/cracking.

[FL-Flinter]

Buckshot,

Excellent info! Thank You!

I was curious about your experience with fouling, I've been working on long-range bullet shooters for a while, had to take several years off for lack of funding after my body crapped out but things are progressing again although slowly. My bullets are fully engaged with the rifling on loading. I've never had an issue with fouling on my previous prototypes but I haven't gone with a twist tighter than 1:26. I was considering 1:18 twist and 0.006-0.007" deep grooves on the new barrel simply because people have been running those tight twists on BPCR rifles w/o having fouling issues. I'll be running my custom 430+gr FN hunting bullets.

I noticed the grooved rear sight base and figured you had a detent on it as well. I'm using my own Creedmore style vernier rear sight and globe front as well. I may put a quick-detach mount on the barrel for an express style hunting sight ... then again, I may just build the blades so they lay flat on the barrel and don't have to be removed when using the Creedmore sight.

I'd bet good money that lock was a poorly done kit as I've seen many of them that were seriously buggered up.

Those 530gr bullets you're running, are they cast or fully swaged? Slick side or grooved? What are you using to wet the paper when wrapping & how many wraps?

[Buckshot]

Buckshot,
Those 530gr bullets you're running, are they cast or fully swaged?

............Fully swaged.

Slick side or grooved?

.............Slick

What are you using to wet the paper when wrapping

.............Plain ole tap water

& how many wraps?

............Two wraps.

................Buckshot

[FL-Flinter]

Thank You! Much appreciated!