Need help with an M1A

[megasupermagnum]

I've been shooting my Springfield M1A scout squad, and I have to say I have not been happy with the accuracy. I'll start with the loads I've shot in it. I've tried a Saeco 315 clone, Lee 170gr, and 175gr HP from GT bullets. I've tried .310", and .311" sizing. I've tried a plethora of powders. Bluedot, 4227, 5744, 3031, 4895, varget, 4831, and likely more. Everything I've tried has all been 4" to 6" at 100 yards

Now onto the rifle. I shot it as it came, in its plastic stock with peep sights. I then mounted a pistol scope onto the scout scope rail that it already had on it. The scope did not help at all. I then put an M14 birch wood stock on it, and kept the scope, still no change. At this point I started to do serious research into the problem. I decided to strip it all the way down. I took everything off I could. I replaced the flash hider with a sight base. I took the scope and scope mount off the barrel. I found I had a ton of play behind the gas block. I flipped the nut around and found it stopped right to 5 o clock, and tightened perfectly. I hogged out the stock around the gas system so there was adequate room such that nothing was touching. When I put the action back in the stock, I did not put the hand guard back on. I left it off to eliminate any possible variable. I found no change in accuracy.

More research, and talking to good M14 gunsmiths found that that connection from action to stock ferrule is critical. I polished that surface and put a dab of grease on it. I also felt like there wasn't enough draw pressure on it. I added painters tape under the action, in front of the trigger guard only. This increased the draw pressure, and I could tell the action was self centering. I also found my rear sight had some play in it. To eliminate the variable, I used a rubber band so it is always pulled to one side. So I shot it again, not one iota of improvement from when I bought it.

Back to the loads themselves, the saeco 315 fits like it was made for it. The bore riding part slightly engraves, and I seat such that it is barely off the rifling, to ensure perfect function. I will say one thing, with any of the slower powders, this rifle has been 100% functional. No worries there. What I hate is that no matter the load, there is no change, not for better or worse. Different targets, different holds, different gun rests. Nothing matters.

Something is wrong with the rifle, and I can't figure out what it is. Surely these are supposed to shoot better than this, I've seen knockoff SKS's shoot as good. About the only thing I have not done is had the stock bedded and gas system unitized. Is it worth shelling out the money on this, or should I start over with a different rifle? The barrel itself on mine seems fine. The rifling is smooth, groove just a tick over .308". Crown looks ok. As much as it sickens me, I may have to try some jword bullets in this one.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

No shame! I keep a few boxes of jwords around for diagnostic purposes!

[RickF]

Hit the guys up on the M14 Forums, they live and breathe that rifle ... https://m14forum.com

[Winger Ed.]

I'd try some 147gr FMJs, or some 150ish grain match stuff at full pressure for comparison.

They should do better.
If you're trying for much better than 2", without having a good day- and can't quite get there--
Yours may be the difference between a rack grade rifle and a NM.

[megasupermagnum]

That is likely the next step. I have some 165 grain Hornady's that should work. Possibly 150's. I never expected or cared that mine is a tack driver. I expected around 2"-3" groups. Consistent sub 3 MOA was the goal. Most groups are 5"-6" with the rare 4", and that doesn't do it for me. I have shotguns that are more accurate.

All groups have been 5-10 shot, fired as slow as I possibly can. I've tried both from the magazine, and single feeding.

[country gent]

How does the action fit in the stock? If should take come pull to rotate it out if the stock. how snug does the trigger guard latch in place? Is there any bind or drag in the op rod when the spring is removed? The op rod bolt should open and close freely by raising and lowering muzzle 30* or so. Bind in the op rod guide can throw accuracy off even. The gas block retainer should go slightly past about 1 hour and then back to line up. Over tightening the flash hider nut is also detrimental to accuracy. Is the hand guard free not tight between action and front ferule. Also check ferules fit on gas cylinder.

[megasupermagnum]

How does the action fit in the stock? If should take come pull to rotate it out if the stock. how snug does the trigger guard latch in place? Is there any bind or drag in the op rod when the spring is removed? The op rod bolt should open and close freely by raising and lowering muzzle 30* or so. Bind in the op rod guide can throw accuracy off even. The gas block retainer should go slightly past about 1 hour and then back to line up. Over tightening the flash hider nut is also detrimental to accuracy. Is the hand guard free not tight between action and front ferule. Also check ferules fit on gas cylinder.

The action certainly isn't a tight fit in either stock. It does not have any play, although it will fall out if I tip it upside down and barely bump the stock. The trigger guard fits tight, and takes a decent force to remove. There is certainly some cam action pulling the action into the stock. I have not removed the spring, I will try that later. By op rod bolt, I assume you mean the plunger from the gas cylinder (piston)? That moves free as a bird, and slides back and forth if I tip the gun. I'll look more into the operating rod with binding. I was watching videos by Tony Ben that the gas block nut should stop about 5:00 or 5:30. Mine is close to 5:00. The way it came was with the nut reversed, and it went past to the next 1:00. Way loose. I did buy shims, but found flipping the nut worked. This did not have even the tiniest bit of improvement in accuracy though. I could try the shims to get the nut to 7:00 or so as you say. The flash hider nut (which is now just a threaded end sight base) I went finger tight, then tighten to the next notch for the set screw. I wouldn't consider it overly tight, maybe 5 ft lbs torque. The sight base fits the barrel perfect, no slop at all. The hand guard was not binding that I could tell, but I took it off anyway, and have been shooting without it. The ferrule on the stock is tight, polished, and greased. The ferrule on the gun (the lipped piece) has play with the gas block nut loose, but none when tightened. I have not had it welded or screwed (unitized) to the gas block. There is some gap in between the ferrules, the only part touching is the surfaces on the bottom.

[M-Tecs]

Accuracy of M-14 based rifles tend to be highly dependent on consistent gas port pressure. Some loads that shoot well in a bolt gun will not perform in M-14's. After the specs changed for M118 to not include M-14 accuracy testing the accuracy of later M118 went down in M14's yet remained consistent in bolt guns. My recommendation is to test with the 168 or 175 grain jacketed match bullets to provide a baseline of accuracy. For factory M852, M118LR or Federal Match are a good baseline of proven performance.

With these you should be under 2 MOA with a box stock rack grade rifle. With 147 ball or later M118 expect that to open up by at least 1 MOA. With a full blown NM spec and a good barrel 3/4" to 7/8" is very doable for 10 shot groups fired in rapid fire cadence.

Once you know what the actual accuracy potential of you rifle you can determine corrective action.

[country gent]

I am sorry for being confusing in my statement. I should have said it this way the op rod/ bolt should lock unlock and open and close freely tipping the muzzle up and down 30*-45* rise and drop from level.

On my NM guns Kreiger full heavy barrels the unitized gas cylinder made a difference. You might consider spotting the action and trigger group into the stock to make sure its not in a bind. You might try thin card board shims to tighten action in the stock. Another place to check is the stock liner. it needs to be tight in the stock and bear evenly on the action.

A full blown tuned and heavy barrel, bedded in will surprise most with the accuracy.

[megasupermagnum]

Instead of card stock, I used layers of painters tape to tighten the action in the stock. I don't know how to check that it is even in the stock liner. It doesn't seem to be out of wack. To me it fits good, only the most modest of front to back play between the action and stock liner. The stock liner is rock solid inside the stock.

[Larry Gibson]

What m8k load with 4895?

Any idea of the velocities of your loads?

[megasupermagnum]

What m8k load with 4895?

Any idea of the velocities of your loads?

I don't know for sure with all my loads, but I doubt any have climbed over 2200 fps. One of the stouter loads I tried was 33 grains 3031, and that only went 2080 fps. Most loads have been slower. I've even tried very light loads that I knew would not cycle the action.

I took the operating rod spring off, and the operating rod and bolt are smooth as can be. It slides around no problem at all. I loaded some 165 gr Sierra gameking's today with 3031 and reloader 15 powders. If none of those shoots even a little better, I'll know something is up.

[shdwlkr]

If it were me I would look at the 155 grain boatail match grade bullet. The standard bullets in that rifle were 145-150 grain range. The use of 165-175 grain bullets by snipers seems like to much bullet for normal use. Remember snipers had different skill sets and use for the m14. Shot one in Army to qualify and did well with the 147 grain bullets that we used. YMMV

[megasupermagnum]

If it were me I would look at the 155 grain boatail match grade bullet. The standard bullets in that rifle were 145-150 grain range. The use of 165-175 grain bullets by snipers seems like to much bullet for normal use. Remember snipers had different skill sets and use for the m14. Shot one in Army to qualify and did well with the 147 grain bullets that we used. YMMV

I have some 125 grain Sierra's, but other than that 165 gr is the lightest I own.

[Gtek]

I did not see NIB or used/new to you, anyway. Most are cleaned from muzzle and bad things do occur from time to time. Anyone around you or youself have a bore scope to inspect muzzle? You or anybody have a nice piloted 11 degree muzzle cutter?

[megasupermagnum]

I purchased it brand new in box. I've had the flash hider off a number of times. The crown is decent. Talking with gunsmiths, they admit any problem with the crown would likely effect the shot in one direction, not send bullets off wildly. I have 450 or so rounds through the rifle, cleaned once about 100 rounds ago. I used a steel rod with a bore guide. I've found no strange spots in the barrel, it seems nice and consistent. Little fouling at all, only a little powder wiped out. I've tried bullets .310" but most have been .311". I do not have a bore scope, but the gunsmith does.

I loaded up 40 rounds of the 165gr sierra with 3031 and 40 round with reloader 15. I also loaded 20 rounds with a 125gr sierra with 3031 that shot great in another rifle. It has either been rainy, windy, or rainy and windy the past 3 days, so have not shot yet.

[Larry Gibson]

Alloy?

GC?

Lube?

[Lance Boyle]

40.5 to 41 grains of IMR 4895 does very well with 168 match bullets. Sierra 165 game kings would be a close replacement and about as accurate.

If that won’t shoot better than 2” you do have a gun problem not a load problem.

[megasupermagnum]

40.5 to 41 grains of IMR 4895 does very well with 168 match bullets. Sierra 165 game kings would be a close replacement and about as accurate.

If that won’t shoot better than 2” you do have a gun problem not a load problem.

I loaded 5 rounds at 41 grains of IMR 4895 with the 165 gr sierra.

I had fired a few groups with 3031 first, and groups were inconsistent, but were an ever so slight improvement over cast bullets. They went 3 3/4", 4", and one at an all time best 2 1/2" which was 40.5 gr 3031. Groups were fired slowly, and I waited between groups to make sure the barrel was cooled. I then tried the 41 gr of 4895. I was amazed to find 4 shots at 1 3/8", but then a 5th shot went about 8 1/2" low and 2" left! I have that pictured below. I did not pull the shot, I did not mess up the load. All charges were weighted on a scale. I had a crystal clear view of the sights and target. The shot felt good. I have no good explanation on how that show made it so far off.

At this point I decided to remove the painters tape stock shims. All I had left was Reloader 15 with the 165 gr and 3031 with a 125 gr bullet. I fired 4 groups, three with RX15 and one with my previously worked up (in another gun) load with the 125 gr bullet. All 4 groups were randomly scattered in about 5" groups, exactly the same as I got with cast bullets.

262395



One other thing I noticed, I can tweak the stock, and get the rear of the action to move around inside the stock. At this point I feel like stock fit is the problem. It seems once in a while the rifle will show potential, like the group shown above. I would hate to dump $300 into this, only to find out the rifle still isn't that accurate.

One other thing I did was to test the rear sight. I had been shooting it with a rubber band holding the peep to the right. This worked very well. I then put the rubber band on the left side and found the group moved about 4-5"! So that will need to be addressed at some point. I'm not too impressed with Springfield, they more or less brushed me off. You would think they could do better for a $1500 rifle.

Now I have to decide. Am I going to have the stock bedded, gas system unitized, rear sight fixed, etc.?

[M-Tecs]

That's pretty grim. If you do have it worked on the M-14/M1a is somewhat of a different cat. Very few people full understand accurization of this platform.

[megasupermagnum]

Alloy?

GC?

Lube?

Alloy for the Saeco 315 and Lee 170 gr were COWW. I tried some Lee air cooled at about a 13 BHN hardness. I tried some Lee and all Saeco water dropped, which runs up around 23-25 BHN hardness. I also had some 175 gr bullets from GT bullets. They use a 96-2-2 alloy.

All three were always gas checked. I tried both .310" and .311" sizing.

Lube on the 175 gr GT bullets is some kind of softer commercial lube. On my own Saeco and Lee, I tried both Carnauba Red and TAC 1.

[megasupermagnum]

That's pretty grim. If you do have it worked on the M-14/M1a is somewhat of a different cat. Very few people full understand accurization of this platform.

Grim as in, I'll see a huge improvement, or grim as in I should sell it and start over with another one?

I'm not sure who will do the work yet. Roland Beaver has a high reputation. I also see Tony Ben does as well, and he sure seems to know them well.

[Larry Gibson]

Test with know accurate jacketed loads before getting wrapped around the axial about accurizing the rifle. As mentioned a Sierra, Nosler, Hornady or Speer 168 match bullet (also as mentioned the Sierra 165 Game King HPBT will do as well) over 41.5 gr 4895 (either Hodgdon or IMR) will quickly tell if the rifle will shoot accurately.

Have you read BruceB's dissertation on loading cast bullets for the M1A?

[M-Tecs]

Grim as in with your jacketed loads you should be in the sub 2 MOA.

Roland did some nice work and some not so much. He closed shop a couple of years ago.

Not familiar with http://www.tonybenm14.com/. Personal I would look for someone that specializes in Nation Match builds.

"I was amazed to find 4 shots at 1 3/8", but then a 5th shot went about 8 1/2" low and 2" left!" That a bit extreme but that does indicate the action is moving in the stock.

If you can what till the August time frame I can do it for you.

[Gtek]

I have a few stocks stashed 14 and M1-A, Birch, Walnut, SA fiber and even a big fat double lug McMillan. You want to try in something else PM and we can figure something out if interested.

[Larry Gibson]

My bad, I missed your post #19. As M-Tec mentions the results of you shooting do indicate a bedding problem, especially the action movement in the stock. I would take Gtek up on his offer to try another stock.

Couple questions about the stock? You say it's "plastic"....is it injection moulded plastic or is it composite? When you close the trigger guard to lock the action in the stock does it snap in easily or does it take some force?

[megasupermagnum]

My bad, I missed your post #19. As M-Tec mentions the results of you shooting do indicate a bedding problem, especially the action movement in the stock. I would take Gtek up on his offer to try another stock.

Couple questions about the stock? You say it's "plastic"....is it injection moulded plastic or is it composite? When you close the trigger guard to lock the action in the stock does it snap in easily or does it take some force?

The original stock was some kind of plastic. I'm sure Springfield called it a composite, but it is a very flimsy stock. The action snaps in too easy in that stock, and there is no draw pressure at the ferrule. I shot with this stock at first, but then bought a big red birch stock. This stock fits better, and is much more stout. You can feel the trigger guard catch the action when it is about 3/4 closed. By Tony Ben's video's this is too loose. To momentarily rectify it, I had shimed under the action, and this both increased the draw from the trigger guard, and also increased the stock's draw at the front ferrule. Unfortunately it seems there is too much room in the stock in the steel liner. I can move the action around by hand. It takes almost no force to insert or remove the action, it will fall out on its own.

As a double check, I may try a box of target specific bullets, but those Sierra's are usually very good. I will for sure see about picking up some factory ammo just to be sure. Most of the loads (including cast) I've tried will shoot 2" at the very worst in my other 308 Winchester, a Henry single shot, although that does have a scope on it. I'm sure the peep sights are not quite as good, but I know I can shoot them well. I have read BruceB's posts, especially his long thread.

Gtek, I may take you up on that offer. I'm not scared to have my gun worked on, and I do like the looks of the birch stock I have now.

[Hueyville]

In addition to testing it with a variety of factory loaded 147/150 grain M80 jacketed loads would buy a couple different boxes of 168 grain match loads. Many M1a's will be finicky about magazines so be sure to test using more than one magazine. I own ten Springfield M1a's with my last being a 6.5 Creedmoor Loaded. It required some trigger work and bedding out of the box. M1a's are known for bedding issues, especially newer rifles and high round count. My primary shooters that have been in the stable for a while have been rebedded at least once. Have most models from Basic, Standard, Loaded, National and Super Match. I am not a fan of the 16" and 18" short barrels as the 1:11 twist six groove rifling is too slow in my opinion for short barrels and my 18" SOCOM was quickly swapped to a 1:10 twist 5R barrel.

I suggest chasing accuracy issues with factory jacketed ammo in the 150 to 168 grain range. If you add a scope be sure of where your mount comes from. There are already Chinese knock offs of the Springfield Gen4 mount for the air soft market being sold as genuine Springfield. I like Sadlack mounts. Except for my 6.5 Loaded I try not to buy Springfields made after Y2K (2000 AD) as quality of parts has dropped along with the assembly line especially since they have to make California, New York and free state compliant versions of every rifle. President 2000 rifles will have more USGI parts and likely better workmanship. My National and Supers are 1980s built. I recently made the decision to swap to Bula built M14s and only buying older Springfields when find a deal. Am about to order a pair of Bula 6.5 NM builds. Keep a good written journal of every change you make and it's effect on accuracy. When get it shooting MOA with factory ammo then work on your cast boolit handloads. If you discover an issue and need to send it in for warranty do not tell them have been shooting handloads or cast. 10% of the M1a's I see come out of the box have issues I feel warrant return for warranty work. Be methodical and patient with ammo Springfield assumes will be used before wandering off into experimenting.

[mvintx]

Buy a box of Federal Gold Medal Match ammunition (FGMM). 168 grain HPBT. It should at least shoot moa at 100 yds with that ammo. No experience with the SOCOM but my two Supermatches will eat FGMM with glee.

Jon Wolfe did my last rebarrel. You might try him; http://wolfefirearms.com/services/

[megasupermagnum]

I got it out again with some factory ammo. I got some 150 grain Remington, as well 7.62x51 PPU brand. The only so called match ammo the store had was Hornady 168 grain. Unfortunately all three again shot about 5" groups. I brought it in to 50 yards, and a couple I did manage close to 2", but that was it. Again I had one flier a good 6"-8" out of a group, no idea what is causing that. One thing I've noticed, and it did this my last time out as well, the groups seem very vertically spread. Many times I'll get two close together, then another two close together, and so on. In the past I've tried both sand bags, and my favorite is an MTM rest. Today I tried with a Caldwell rest.

Mine is the scout squad, not the SOCOM. I've never heard of magazines effecting accuracy before, but I have tried multiple. I've tried with the original 10 shot, as well as multiple 20 shot mags from Check-Mate. I've even tried single loading ammo without a magazine. I have tried it with a scope. This model came with a scope mount on it. The scope did not make any difference at all.

Months ago I had called Springfield about the accuracy problems. I was asked if it would shoot 4" groups at 100 yards. I said sometimes, but usually not. The guy said, well it would probably be considered in spec then.

At this point, I don't think there is anything else to do, except send it off to be bedded, and gas system unitized.

[Larry Gibson]

Appears to be a bedding issue. Try another stock.

[country gent]

I would have it bedded ( youll be surprised how tight it is after) The unitized gas system is also worth doing. Also have a good trigger job done, 4 1/2 lbs is abut the minimum but getting the clean crisp consistent release will make a big difference. With the bedding job send the handgaurd also and have it fit also, one that bears on receiver and gas system both can cause problems.

Theres a trick to removing the bedded action from the stock. Sliding the gas system forward allows the action to be lifted straight up and out, it doesn't rock out and damage the bedding. I also have found that when action is removed replaced it may take a few rounds to fully settle back in.

[megasupermagnum]

Appears to be a bedding issue. Try another stock.

Trying another stock is likely the safe answer. At this point I feel willing to go all in with the bedding. I'm willing to accept the liability, I don't see the need to ever remove the stock if this works. My big question is, has anyone ever seen a rifle such as this, shooting around 5"-6" at 100, come down to sub 2" after the work?

As for the trigger, that was one good surprise with this rifle. Out of the box mine was more than acceptable. Very little creep, almost imperceptible, and it breaks at 4 3/4 pounds. Nothing needs to be done there.

[M-Tecs]

At this point I feel willing to go all in with the bedding. I'm willing to accept the liability, I don't see the need to ever remove the stock if this works. My big question is, has anyone ever seen a rifle such as this, shooting around 5"-6" at 100, come down to sub 2" after the work?


I've never seen one that shot that poorly period. That being said most of the ones I have done are NM rifles that needed bedding and or a new barrel. I did a dozen rack grade unfired M-14's with the standard barrels and 4 or 5 shot well enough to be competitive. The others shot well enough for the new shooters on the team. I never shot them before bedding and NM'ing them.

It was very common when the bedding had issues for them to "chirp" in the stock. They would shoot good groups but when the stock "chirped" it would jump POI 5 or 6 MOA.

It sound like you are thinking of doing a glue in bedding? The M1A/M-14 platform is not a good choice for that. Properly bedded you don't want to remove the action unless needed but infrequent removal doesn't hurt anything.

[megasupermagnum]

I don't know what you mean by glue in bedding. I've read about various methods of lugs, or pillars or even a bolt, none of which I am good enough to do myself. Once I get around to it and find a qualified and available gunsmith, I will have it done as they recommend.

My gun definitely makes noise. I wouldn't call it a chirp, I would call it more of a tick. I had no idea the stocks needed to fit so tight. As you saw in the picture I posted, mine seems to do as you say. I managed 4 good shots, and then the next moved a good 8". That was with spacers to tighten the stock. With no spacers, my action doesn't rattle, but it doesn't take much to move it around. I've noticed depending on how tight I hold it can move the action in the stock. I'll often get that tick, as the rear of the action settles in.

[M-Tecs]

I don't think there is an official name but when I went to All Guard Match rifle course they referred to the sound the action makes when it moves as "chirping". Glue in bedding used to be common with the benchrest crowd. They would bed the action without a release agent on the action so it was glued in permanently.

[dogmower]

at my range the target is a skillet sized steel gong at 550 yards. smk or hornady 168 match bullet over 41.5 imr 4895 hits it all day long. try that load and if you're at moa or so, it's the gun.

[megasupermagnum]

at my range the target is a skillet sized steel gong at 550 yards. smk or hornady 168 match bullet over 41.5 imr 4895 hits it all day long. try that load and if you're at moa or so, it's the gun.

I think you missed most of the thread. I tried a 165 gr Sierra with 41 gr 4895. It put 4 shots into about 1 3/8", then threw the 5th over 8" away.

I'm working on other guns now, this M1A will go off to be worked on soon enough.