.45 ACP issues_Tisas Zig M45

[DeadWoodDan]

Purchased a Zenith Tisas Zig M45 commander 1911 mfg. in Turkey and just struggling getting it to feed my reloads. Had DougGuy throat the barrel because I could not get loaded round to sit flush (thunk test) thinking that would help, and it did fix that test no problems now. I have been loading a SNS 200gr FN and Lee 195gr SWC (TL) sized .452 using an NOE plug and RCBS dies. What I concluded today doing some trial and error is I got the commercial cast round to feed IF using a LEE FCD. If I didn't use the FCD some rounds would not go into battery. The SWC will not go into battery. I have found that I can load either bullet (not using FCD) dropping into chamber without using magazine and slide closes completely. So I am thinking the bullet is hanging up going from magazine into chamber? Some times I can push slide closed other times round acts like it won't chamber.....Any thoughts or suggestions? Thanks in advance! DWD

[DougGuy]

The throat in the barrel will take a Zminus .452" pin gage maybe .200" into the throat, I put a fairly long freebore in them. However, if any of your loads are greater than .452" they won't plunk and will want to keep the slide from going into battery. With the longer freebore you can seat out as long as you want to, which helps feeding in the 1911 tremendously, so I would suggest pulling the barrel and giving all the rounds the plunk test, if you have any that fail to fall freely in the chamber and spin, there lies your problem. Some .452" sizing dies are only close, they may be larger than .452" and you also have springback so if the die really is .452" and you experience some springback which might account for .0002" or .0003" growth, this may contribute to the problem as well.

I figure pulling the barrel and using it for a go/no-go gauge is almost as good as a mic so I would try this first.

The next culprit to look at would be the extractor, with the slide off, slide a round up the breech face from the bottom and see how hard or easy it is to slip it under the extractor hook. If it's hard for you to slide it with your hand, this may add to the feeding issues since the only thing that pushes that round up the breech face and under the extractor hook in live fire is the round underneath the round being chambered, in the magazine, so add a stack of rounds on top of that spring, it loses energy fairly quickly so that needs to be a pretty stout spring. You can google tuning the 1911 extractor, or you can search this forum for threads that tell and or show in photos how to do this.

[DeadWoodDan]

Doug as always your guidance and knowledge is appreciated as is all members. So thought I had something figured out but still a no go. I adjusted the seating die crimp and the SWC started functioning without an issue. I had powder coated some of these so I thought lets give them a try....no go, would not go into battery. Both are passing the plunk test or I think they are. I am trying to take measurements to see the difference is between them. I checked to see how proud the round is above the barrel "lug"(?) and I am sitting .008" above that lug. I followed up with checking a re-sized case and it sits below but when powder and boolit is seated the round sits just high.
I checked the extractor and this looks good, I can easily place resized brass and a loaded round without problem.

I just added the Lee FCD back into the process and not crimping w/ seating die. No issues...I know this could or is sizing the boolit down but it works.

[tazman]

You might want to check the diameter of your boolits after running them through your sizer. DougGuy did a couple of 1911 barrels for me and they feed .452 anything just fine. The issue becomes, if your sizer leaves them at .4525, they will have plunk issues.
I have one sizer that does just that.
I have another sizer marked .451 that leaves a boolit at just under .452. Those run just fine and are close enough to the size I want that there are no leading or accuracy issues. Sizers don't always leave a boolit the size they are marked. This can also depend somewhat on your alloy.

[DeadWoodDan]

Taz, I confirmed both the commercial cast and my cast rounds. The commercial boolits are very consistent. I will admit out of 10pcs checked of mine 3 on the top band show .4525" but the bottom band is dead on. My micrometer only measures in .0005" increments so technically I could be off .0004" but I really doubt that much would matter? I have a Lee push through sizer I may try running a hand full through it and see how they load.

I had a couple hundred of the commercial cast that I loaded and ran them through the Lee FCD and they will feed just fine.
If I can find my chamber alloy I may do a chamber cast to see what dimensions I'm dealing with. Found it interesting on the 1911 forums members just use the Lee FCD and deal with it.

[tazman]

I also use the Lee FCD on all my handgun ammo. I seat and crimp in different stages. Doing so has made my ammo work in all my handguns.
I no longer load ammo for just one specific handgun. Whatever I load runs in all of them that take similar cartridges.

[DougGuy]

I will admit out of 10pcs checked of mine 3 on the top band show .4525" but the bottom band is dead on.

ANY measurement over .452" will fail plunk test, which will also fail to go into battery. As Taz has mentioned, he can load .452" anything and they feed in all of the barrels that I have throated for him, and likely feed in the barrels I haven't throated, or they would have come here.

The throat in that barrel is a precise measuring tool. Any style of boolit, seated out as long as it will cycle through the magazine, will plunk and feed in that barrel. You get one boolit that has a bit of PC on one side that mics .4522" or greater, will have issues. One boolit that mics .452" on one side but mics .4525" at the parting lines will have issues.

Your chamber is good to go with any style or amount of crimp you want to use. The problem here is some of the boolits are greater than .452" and they will not work. Must be genuinely .452" and no larger. I can always scoch some more out of the barrel if you want to resend it, no big deal to take it closer to .453" but as it is, .452" is the max it will plunk and feed reliably and it will feed .452" all day every day.

Ok gonna add to this a bit... Here is a photo showing the Plunk Test. You need to remove the barrel from the gun and use it to check your loads, check ALL of them that are possibly in doubt, all should drop in and spin freely on the headspace ledge, when they do, they are plunking correctly. If they won't seat down to the headspace ledge, the boolit is interfering with the freebore, and the ONLY way it can do this, is if the boolit is greater than .452" or the round is excessively eccentric i.e. boolit seated way crooked in the case.

262174

You should consider the second example from the left as the optimum, where the face of the cartridge rim is slightly below the barrel hood. Since the barrel in a 1911 sits higher in the back when it is in battery, this needs to be slightly less than 90 degrees, and you achieve this when the cartridge sits a tad lower than the barrel hood, as in the second example from the left.

Note the comment on the far right example. Boolit seated out to far.. WRONG! Boolit is not seated out too far, boolit is interfering with the throat, or the lack of, because the barrel does not have either A. any freebore in front of the chamber, or B. the freebore it has is too small in diameter to allow the boolit to chamber with the ogive resting in the throat. Which btw, is the most accurate placement for the boolit when the slide is in battery. That way it's already centered in the bore by the freebore, which you cannot take advantage of this by seating deeper to avoid interfering with a tight throat.

All seating deeper does is create a secondary problem as a workaround to the primary problem, not enough freebore, or freebore too small in diameter. Not a very good workaround imho. You have to compensate for this in the load data, and a 1911 just doesn't feed as well with short cartridges as opposed to longer cartridges.

[35remington]

What shape and type of bullet are these and what is the overall length?

1911 101 once the throat is right goes as follows:

Don’t feed the gun what you want the gun to feed. Feed the gun a bullet shape and overall length the design feeds well. This is a longer overall length round with a rounded ogive. It also helps if the magazines feed the gun like it was intended to be fed.

Believe it or not, that does not include most “brand name” magazines.

[onelight]

If they chamber using the factory crimp die shoot some if they perform well just use it . If they lead then you may need to do something else.
I also use the FCD on all my auto rounds and have no issues with the loads I shoot.

[DeadWoodDan]

I'm confident in my micrometer but do have an alternate way to measure at work using a CMM, more precise than any hand held tool and can take a scan to see variances. Unfortunately I'm off from work until at least July so can't use that any time soon. I did a lot of reading on the 1911 last night and I am definitely with 35Remington on this one. My next attempt will be to try other style bullets. I was/am really surprised at how many people use the FCD with cast. I know it's a band-aid and as Taz and onelight mentioned they use to feed ammo reliably in multiple firearms. I always thought the FCD was counterproductive as it sized the bullet back down and Cast 101 says always use .001-.002" over diameter. Regardless I believe I am passing the plunk test, last night I even used a sharpie marker on a few to see what and where the interference was. I couldn't determine anything with that method.

Doug I appreciate your offer to open up, but I don't think that is my answer. Going to try different profile boolits and possibly a different magazine. I never could find a reference to what is acceptable clearance in relationship to the round and hood. I am assuming it must sit flush or under the hood to 100% feed. I can get mine to do that with thumb pressure. Might not be able to get round to spin but sits flush.

Another note to back up 35Rem. is that rounds that won't go into battery I can single feed without magazine and shoot just fine. So thinking possibly the magazines could have something to do with the feeding.

[DougGuy]

Dan, you just said the immediate problem.


I am assuming it must sit flush or under the hood to 100% feed. I can get mine to do that with thumb pressure. Might not be able to get round to spin but sits flush.

Rounds should fall in freely, hence the name of the test, because they make an audible "plunk" when they drop in. NO thumb pressure, gravity only, should spin easily. You want below the hood a few thousandths.

Ok I will say this a third time. Your problem is with boolit diameter and nothing else. It matters not if you load a doorknob off Barbie and Ken's first playhouse, as long as it is NOT LARGER THAN .452" it will plunk and feed reliably. I have done hundreds of 1911 barrels, my own are throated just like yours, it matters not what the back driving band is, if ANY PART of the boolit is greater than .452" you WILL have interference! How much more clear can I be on this one statement?

Edit re: the post below this one....

The FCD squeezes the outside of the case, it doesn't even come in contact with the portion of the boolit sitting proud of the case mouth. So.. If you have a .452" with .060" of the boolit sitting proud of the case mouth, let's say it's an H&G 68 200gr semi wadcutter, and you use the FCD, at first you can see the case slightly distorted where the base of the boolit pushes the case out, totally normal, to be expected, now once you run it through the FCD, that little distortion is gone, HOWEVER, it has squeezed the boolit a tiny bit as the carbide ring passes, and it has now actually enlarged the part of the boolit sitting proud of the case mouth, because hey if you squeeze it, the lead has to go somewhere, right? Now check your plunk test. Make sure that the load that plunked before the FCD got hold of it, will now plunk afterwards.

If it did before but now doesn't plunk, it leads back to my opening statement in this thread, the problem is with boolit diameter, the FCD has increased boolit diameter and therefore created interference..

[onelight]

Dan, you just said the immediate problem.



Rounds should fall in freely, hence the name of the test, because they make an audible "plunk" when they drop in. NO thumb pressure, gravity only, should spin easily. You want below the hood a few thousandths.

Ok I will say this a third time. Your problem is with boolit diameter and nothing else. It matters not if you load a doorknob off Barbie and Ken's first playhouse, as long as it is NOT LARGER THAN .452" it will plunk and feed reliably. I have done hundreds of 1911 barrels, my own are throated just like yours, it matters not what the back driving band is, if ANY PART of the boolit is greater than .452" you WILL have interference! How much more clear can I be on this one statement?
What he said /\.... that is what it plunking after using the FCD tells you if you had a problem with the ogive it would still be a problem after running them through the FCD .
You may need or want larger than the FCD makes it but your bullet needs to sized smaller.

[DeadWoodDan]

Rounds will not plunk before FCD. .030" of the boolit is sitting outside case.
After FCD rounds will plunk. Boolit outside case is same diameter before and after FCD.
Pulled a few rounds and boolit has been sized down at least .0005-.001"

Going to size .451" and call it good. Will run a few and see how much if any leading.

Thanks Guys, Lets call this done.
dwd