ISE Hates plumbing

[Freightman]

but will do it before I call a plumber I hooked up a new lavatory and put a new top on the vanity. Plumber wanted to charge $280 just to hook up the lavatory. Crap I bought a Taurus G2C and 500 rds of ammo for that. So I don't hate plumbing that bad.

[Winger Ed.]

Cool.
Doing it yourself helps protect and preserve the fund for gunpowder and Whiskey.

[Mk42gunner]

I crawled under enough houses plumbing when I was a teenager. The only plumbing I do now is my own.

Robert

[CastingFool]

I love doing plumbing work! Last year, I installed two 75 gallon WH's for a friend, plus I had to replace my 22 yr old WH, and I did it on my granddaughter's birthday.

[elmacgyver0]

I love doing plumbing work! Last year, I installed two 75 gallon WH's for a friend, plus I had to replace my 22 yr old WH, and I did it on my granddaughter's birthday.

Your name is wrong! should be "Plumbing Fool".

[rancher1913]

might seem kinda high but you did not need to pay for a truck to haul your tools and parts to the job, you did not need to pay for a plumbing license and a contractor license, you did not need to pay liability and other insurances, you did not need to pay for all the other crap the gov makes you do to be in business. I understand where your coming from and would have done the same thing but just remember service people are not out to deliberately rip you off.

[EDG]

I understand where your coming from and would have done the same thing but just remember service people are not out to deliberately rip you off.

No I don't think you understand.
The last water leak I had a plumber quoted me $2000 because my water heater no longer met the local codes and it would have to be replaced. That was even though the WH was NOT the cause of the leak. So I called another plumber who replaced a copper elbow for $225. That has been 3 years ago and I still have the same WH.

The cause of the leak was a pin hole in the copper elbow. The sorry plumbers that originally plumbed the house when it was built patched a pin hole in the copper with a cold solder patch. The cold solder eventually began leaking. It was just shabby workmanship compounded twice by the same plumber.

[brass410]

we (swmbo and I) always figured I can screw it up 3x, when installing something, before its cheaper to hire, and by the third time I should know how to do it correctly LOL (education costs money) However, now, old man time has started to play games with us both, but now we have a handyperson that we really like, (young couple) so we have them in to do stuff with us, they seem really eager to learn how to do stuff and be self reliant, besides they need the work and we don't have any kin so we might as well spend on them, and pass on the know how, he's all hot to learn huntin fishin reloadin (city kid never had a chance she's the same she want to learn preserving gardening how to skin a bear dear moose and process she figure's someday the market shelves will be empty. How about that?

[Winger Ed.]

The last water leak I had a plumber quoted me $2000 because my water heater no longer met the local codes and it would have to be replaced. .

Reminds of a remodeling contractor here.
I wanted a 20' x 30' room addition on the slab of the existing patio.
---- Three walls & a roof. The guy only wanted $82,000. for the job.

[Freightman]

Well I don't worry about what it cost and I will hire the other plumbing jobs. They are far beyond my capabilities as at 81 almost it takes to long. And I do understand overhead cost .

[justashooter]

HOR, COL, SRDH. 3 simple rules.

[WRideout]

Quite a few years ago, I needed to replace a valve on the water supply to the washer. It was a Saturday afternoon; it looked like an easy job, and I would still have time to go to the office to finish a report I had been working on. I thought I would use flexible copper to make the connections, with compression fittings. After about three tries, I had kinked every bend in the tubing, and could not get the fittings to seal. Not one to give up easily, I kept trying to make it work, well into the night.

About 1:00 am, I sat on a bench in the garage, praying "Please God, help me get this water back on." A few minutes later I found a shutoff cap which I soldered over the end of the supply line, allowing me to turn the water back on. A friend came over the next day and finished the job for me.

All of which leads me to the conclusion that plumbing makes men religious.

Wayne

[Idaho45guy]

I remodeled my bathroom last summer for $4500. Tore it down to the studs, knocked out a wall, and doubled it's size. Brand new everything.
My dad and I did all the work. Was told it would be $30k+ if I hired it out.

I don't like plumbing, but it turned out well. Only had a couple of leaks when we first turned the water on and after those were fixed, it's been great ever since.

Before:

262041

262042

During:

262043

After:

262044

262045

[Plate plinker]

Reminds of a remodeling contractor here.
I wanted a 20' x 30' room addition on the slab of the existing patio.
---- Three walls & a roof. The guy only wanted $82,000. for the job.

You did ask for all Italian marble walls and a gilded dome of gold right?

[Texas by God]

1. “You know what”- runs downhill.
2. Payday is Friday.
You are now a plumber.

[Sweetpea]

1. “You know what”- runs downhill.
2. Payday is Friday.
You are now a plumber.

You forgot don't bite your nails...

[tunnug]

My sister in law had a water pipe burst under her porch (main line in from the alley), they quoted her $8K to fix and more if they ran into unforseen problems, I went and looked at it and between her brother, husband and I we fixed it that same afternoon for under $200 in 1"PEX and Sharkbite products, it been 15 yrs and still going strong.

[Idaho45guy]

My sister in law had a water pipe burst under her porch (main line in from the alley), they quoted her $8K to fix and more if they ran into unforseen problems, I went and looked at it and between her brother, husband and I we fixed it that same afternoon for under $200 in 1"PEX and Sharkbite products, it been 15 yrs and still going strong.

I love PEX! I can still do copper, and a couple of our fittings in the remodel were done old school with copper, but the rest was PEX. So easy.

[iomskp]

I do a lot of LPG work, a major problem I come across is people installing the appliances themselves, not converting the units to LPG from natural gas, running bare copper in brick walls then filling with concrete ans so on and then asking me to sign off on their job, god I love these do it yourself shows they have made me a lot of money over the years.

[Randy Bohannon]

I recently had all new plumbing installed and a new on demand H/W heater $3K for the H/W including gas and electric routing/ rerouting. Same contractor replaced all of the old galvanized pipe for $1K , including 1/4 turn SS ball valves on every outlet for every appliance,showers,hose bibs, toilets,sinks .100% of my piping is accessible from the basement and I despise having to shut the entire house down to do any plumbing. They did all the work in 3 days. Two journeyman plumbers that treated my house like they were doing their own home, quality work as it’s all visible and they cared what you would see.

[farmerjim]

I built the house I am living in now. I subbed out things that took crews to do like concrete slab, framing, sheet-rock. I did all the plumbing, electrical, finish carpentry, and painting. It took me 2 years to build. Prices for a contractor to build a home at that time was about $85 a sq foot. I built for $35. I also overdid much of the work such as the electrical. Every wall socket in the house is a dedicated 20 amp. I used 5000 feet of no 12 romex. It was only $90 a thousand back then.

[NyFirefighter357]

Many local codes require a licensed professional to update any work that doesn't meet code when they do a repair. Just because you got someone else fix the problem without updating your out of code issues doesn't mean they were wrong. Not updating an out of code repair could jeopardize a license or cause a future liability. Nobody realizes the cost of running a business, multiple insurances, vehicles, stock, employee's, advertising, licensing, bonding, office space, the cost of running around giving estimate to a bunch of people who won't have you do the work ect. How old was the WH? If it was close to it's life expectancy & out of code even more reason to he was right to want to replace it.


No I don't think you understand.
The last water leak I had a plumber quoted me $2000 because my water heater no longer met the local codes and it would have to be replaced. That was even though the WH was NOT the cause of the leak. So I called another plumber who replaced a copper elbow for $225. That has been 3 years ago and I still have the same WH.

The cause of the leak was a pin hole in the copper elbow. The sorry plumbers that originally plumbed the house when it was built patched a pin hole in the copper with a cold solder patch. The cold solder eventually began leaking. It was just shabby workmanship compounded twice by the same plumber.

[NyFirefighter357]

$30K is about correct for a bathroom renovation. Permits, multiple trades, time & material. Cost of running a business that is licensed, insured, bonded & reputable.


I remodeled my bathroom last summer for $4500. Tore it down to the studs, knocked out a wall, and doubled it's size. Brand new everything.
My dad and I did all the work. Was told it would be $30k+ if I hired it out.

I don't like plumbing, but it turned out well. Only had a couple of leaks when we first turned the water on and after those were fixed, it's been great ever since.

Before:

262041

262042

During:

262043

After:

262044

262045

[NyFirefighter357]

I don't know how long ago you got a price for your addition but it involved much more than 3 walls & some roofing. Framing, electrical, plumbing, sheet rocking, insulation, flooring, painting, windows, doors, moldings, HVAC, permits, licenses, plans ect. $80k is about the right price to pay for a 600sqft addition in the US. Many contractors don't want tio take on the headaches of a big job like that unless the reward of making a good amount of profit because they always take longer than expected between permits, inspections & coordinating all the trades involved ect.

https://homeguide.com/costs/home-addition-cost



Reminds of a remodeling contractor here.
I wanted a 20' x 30' room addition on the slab of the existing patio.
---- Three walls & a roof. The guy only wanted $82,000. for the job.

[Petrol & Powder]

I find it interesting that the government wants to dictate how a "professional" does the work but wants you to pay for that "professional".

Yet when you do that work yourself, the government still graciously allows you to pay for it. I think it's very generous of the government to allow me to pay for my own repairs whether I hire a professional or do it myself.

[Finster101]

As a professional auto tech, I have to be licensed to handle Freon that anyone can go in to the part store and dump in to a leaking system. Go figure.

Oh. By the way I hate plumbing too.

[CastingFool]

Btw, I also have an Universal certification to handle refrigerants. I have literally replumbed our 2100 sqft home, re did both the master bathroom and the main bathroom. Replaced our 22yr old WH, installed an iron filter, water softener and pressure tank. Either unit can be isolated from the main water supply, for maintenance or removal. I used extra valves and unions where deemed necessary

[blackthorn]

I have NEVER taken on a plumbing install/repair and had it turn out either well or simple! It took me several applications of anger and frustration to learn that if I need even the most simple plumbing work done to-----CALL THE GUY!!!

[Winger Ed.]

I don't know how long ago you got a price for your addition but it involved much more than 3 walls & some roofing. Framing, electrical, plumbing, sheet rocking, insulation, flooring, painting, windows, doors, moldings, HVAC, permits, licenses, plans ect. $80k is about the right


It was 2 years ago. From what others paid for similar work was closer to 20K.
The 1300 sq. ft. house next door was built- starting with weeds on the side of a hill, and finished out
with all floor covering, paint, and all appliances, etc., for 84K, and had been finished 3 months before my project was proposed.

Just looking at that--- 82K is way out of line for a 600 sq. ft. empty room, a couple of wall outlets,
a AC duct, with one wall, and the floor already there.

[Petrol & Powder]

Every law, code or regulation is a reduction of freedom.

Some reduction in freedom is necessary in society. It's probably a good idea that we all generally drive on the accepted side of the road and we all agree that a red traffic light means stop.
However, too much regulation is a bad thing. I don't think anyone wants to be forced to pay a licensed plumber to screw a garden hose onto a faucet.
We can all agree that some regulation is necessary and too much regulation is a bad thing. It's the amount of regulation in between the extremes where the debate resides.

About 50% of plumbing is knowing how to do it and about the other 50% is having the tools, money & time to do it.

If you lack the knowledge, tools or time to do the job - all you really need is the money to pay someone else to do it.
If you have enough money for the materials and have the knowledge, tools & time - you can pull that off without paying a "licensed professional".

You can go to the store and buy loaded ammunition or you can acquire the tools, knowledge and materials to do it yourself.

[flyingmonkey35]

I saw a sign on a plumbing store the other day.

"We repair what your husband fixed."


That being said I know what I will do and wont do.

I understand why a business charges 180 dollars to install a toilet.

I also know when I general contractor has zero desire to do the job so they double / triple the bid. So you go away.





Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Petrol & Powder]

I saw a sign on a plumbing store the other day.

"We repair what your husband fixed."


That being said I know what I will do and wont do.

I understand why a business charges 180 dollars to install a toilet.

I also know when I general contractor has zero desire to do the job so they double / triple the bid. So you go away.





Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I agree that you need to know your limitations.
I also think you have to do the math. When PEX first appeared on the scene the tools needed were hideously expensive. I paid a plumber to make a simple repair because it was cheaper than buying the crimping tool. However I wasn't going to pay that every time I needed to work on PEX. Over some time I purchased the needed tools; some new and some used.

As for contractors charging double or triple to scare away an annoying customer, I know several industries in which that is a common practice. Unfortunately, sometimes they pay it and then you're stuck with them !

[NyFirefighter357]

A building lot alone is almost twice that price here! The average cost to just build a home here would be about 250-300K. I can't wait to leave this state!

I know & can do just about all the trades. I grew up doing carpentry, kitchen & bathroom renovations, tile, siding & windows, roofing, framing & wallboard. I took a course in household electrical wiring when I started doing heating and wound up helping teaching the hands on work. I also became a licensed contractor. I sweat thousands of feet of copper pipe. Anything build up to the 1960's is galvanized waste lines to cast iron main stack & brass water lines. From the 1960's up to 2000, most of the waste lines where are copper including the house trap & all the water lines copper, after that PVC was starting to be used for interior waste lines but domestic water lines were still copper until 2010ish. In the city's you still can't use PVC or PEX for the most part.
I have installed plenty of copper, PVC & PEX over the years.

All you need is some knowledge, patience, common sense, some tools and time. You can fix or build just about anything. Needless to say I do all my own work here as well, as the trades are very expensive and the work not very good most of the time.



It was 2 years ago. From what others paid for similar work was closer to 2 then go outside in cast iron. 0K.
The 1300 sq. ft. house next door was built- starting with weeds on the side of a hill, and finished out
with all floor covering, paint, and all appliances, etc., for 84K, and had been finished 3 months before my project was proposed.

Just looking at that--- 82K is way out of line for a 600 sq. ft. empty room, a couple of wall outlets,
a AC duct, with one wall, and the floor already there.

[Winger Ed.]

All you need is some knowledge, patience, common sense, some tools and time. You can fix or build just about anything. Needless to say I do all my own work here as well, as the trades are very expensive and the work not very good most of the time.

That's where I'm at.
In the 80's I worked part time & late night emergency calls for a buddy who was a plumbing contractor.
And my neighbor was a electrician.
In the late 80's, with their help & advice, I built a 16x32 detached garage myself to learn what to look for,
and/or how to do it right when building our house the next year, and spent a lot of quality time with our building inspectors.
I did almost everything on it except the HVAC, frame, hanging sheetrock, and the roof.

20 years ago, I would have done the room addition myself, but that was then, this is now.

[Mk42gunner]

Reading through this thread reminded me of an old saying:

A homeowner that does his own plumbing job needs to make three trips to the store. The reason a pro doesn't have to make the same three trips is because he has all the parts in his truck.

Robert

[Winger Ed.]

A building lot alone is almost twice that price here! .

A big expense up there is probably the price of the dirt under it.

Our neighbor had that 1300 sq ft house built for 84K and it came with everything but furniture, clothes, and dishes in the cabinets.
But she already had the lot, and got a cut price for the crews doing it in between other jobs, when they finished something else early, etc.
All in all, it took them about 3-4 weeks longer to finish it compared to a dedicated- hit it hard & fast type of job.

Unlike the guy I called- her builder wasn't driving a current year, totally slicked out, Diesel, 'city truck' with every option, F-250 either.

[ascast]

related but sideways--I work in a boiler factory, assembly line stuff. My sister needed a steamer and her contractor quoted her $5,500 just for the boiler. Additional work to hook up was over $15,000 We make that model and I bought it for cost plus 10%. I charged her $1700, hired a buddy with truck and got it to the house. We both put a couple hundos in our pockets. Now she can;t buy a contractor at all. All kinds of ridicules excuses. Their still going to spend 2 days piping and checking at $70 per hour. They still have $10,000 of their original quote to pick up. It just a crappy attitude on the contractors part.

[Idaho45guy]

Reminds of a joke about the building of the pearly gates and how they were so expensive because St. Peter had to go to Hell to find a contractor for the job...

[tinsnips]

Be nice to plumbers . I have been one for 45 years if you guys had a clue about all the permit,license fees,insurance,works comp,pick up costs,building insuance etc-etc it would help everyone understand where all the profit goes. This goes for just about all bussiness . There are to many crooks nowdays that give all bussiness men a bad name.

[Finster101]

I understand the cost but if it's something I think I can do then I do it. I hire someone when I feel it's above my skill level or I just don't have the time required to do it. It can also be a challenge to find someone to do it correctly. I can mess it up and still be better than some of the jobs I've hired out.

[Freightman]

Well I still hate plumbing, but the job is done no leaks so on to the next project Trim o goodie.

[robg]

worked as a plumbers mate years ago ,still hate plumbing but still do my own but it gets harder the older you get to get in those tight corners etc .i put stop valves on all pipework whenever i do any plumbing now.

[Mal Paso]

worked as a plumbers mate years ago ,still hate plumbing but still do my own but it gets harder the older you get to get in those tight corners etc .i put stop valves on all pipework whenever i do any plumbing now.

A friend of mine from got his journeyman's papers over there. Part of the test was making a P Trap from sheet lead. No one actually used lead P Traps at the time, the test was a holdover from a previous era and thought a waste of time but Hubbs can make a lead P Trap from scratch if needed. Unfortunately no one ever wanted one.

[Idaho45guy]

I bought an old house in Iowa that had radiator heat with a coal-fired boiler in the basement. I wanted to convert it to a modern ducted natural gas system and central AC.

Cost me $24k twenty years ago. No way was I going to try it. HVAC guys know the proper placement of returns, proper size of ducting for efficiency, and a whole lot of other stuff that an uneducated do-it-yourselfer can really screw up. That was on a two-story 3000 sq. ft Victorian home.

Now, I have a 1400 square foot 1.5 story farmhouse that needs a similar system installed. I haven't even bothered to get a bid since I know I can't afford it.

Looks like doing it myself will still require a licensed contractor to run the black pipe and the vent even if I install the furnace and do all of the duct work myself. Hoping to avoid that project for as long as possible.

[Winger Ed.]

Looks like doing it myself will still require a licensed contractor to run the black pipe and the vent even if I install the furnace and do all of the duct work myself. Hoping to avoid that project for as long as possible.

The laws in our state allow you to do building type stuff on your own home without the licenses.
When the building inspector comes-- they'll also have a magnifying glass with them.
But if ya do good work to code, its no big deal.
Without the licenses, you can't work on anyone else's house or building.

As far as putting things off- I've found that the older I get, the easier it is.

[Bmi48219]

We grew up doing construction. Dug basements with a shovel, sifted beach sand for mortar, hot tapped meters into the power grid, wet plastered walls & ceilings, carpenters, wiring, plumbing, pretty much everything & mostly w/o power tools. Did it all but the one thing I really don’t like is finishing drywall.
Thirty five years ago there weren’t any Lowe’s or H-D’s at the corner. Having worked with and been a skilled tradesman most of my life I’ve developed a few theories.
First, stores like Home Depot etc sell stuff that homeowners can install. With the correct tools, research, planning & patience most anyone can pull it off. Not to belittle tradesmen, they don’t call them “skilled” for nothing, but none of them / us are rocket scientists.
Second, if you can’t buy it at Home Depo or Lowe’s the average guy probably shouldn’t try doing it. Especially (don’t ask how I know) garage door springs.

[Winger Ed.]

. Especially (don’t ask how I know) garage door springs.

Those things have killed the unwary.

[Idaho45guy]

The laws in our state allow you to do building type stuff on your own home without the licenses.
When the building inspector comes-- they'll also have a magnifying glass with them.
But if ya do good work to code, its no big deal.
Without the licenses, you can't work on anyone else's house or building.

As far as putting things off- I've found that the older I get, the easier it is.

I bought a barely used natural gas stove off of Craigslist to replace the 70's oil burner in my house a few years ago. It's one of those stoves that looks like a traditional wood stove, but is natural gas, complete with ceramic logs.

I didn't have natural gas to my house, but the utility company said they would run it from the street and set a meter if I had an appliance installed. Gas company said I had to have a licensed contractor do the install.

Well, I set the stove and installed the chimney, then hired a local contractor to run the pipe from the stove to the exterior. He came in, ran 3' of pipe, inspected my chimney, and left a tag on it. $450. The utility company came and ran the line, set the meter, and verified the contractor's info on the tag he left.

[Winger Ed.]

He came in, ran 3' of pipe, inspected my chimney, and left a tag on it. $450. The utility company came and ran the line, set the meter, and verified the contractor's info on the tag he left.

We have a bunch of pioneer days type homestead laws that never got changed.
As a home owner, that actually lives there, we can pull permits and do all the work without any of the usual licenses.
and some people do their all own electrical and plumbing, etc.

I have pulled a few permits and done concrete, plumbing, and electrical work on our home.
When the building inspector comes to do various inspections as the project goes along-
they always look over stuff REAL close, 'green tag' it, or tell ya what you need to fix.

I got the permit and did all the electrical when we built our house, the inspector was cool,
and sort of followed it like we would someone else's special project.
There was even some helpful, "Yeah, that's legal, but here's how I'd do it on my own house"......

[Randy Bohannon]

Wyoming at least in Buffalo, existing residential only needs a permit for a new roof or a deck. Roofers had done so many bad roofing jobs here the City requires a permit even if you do it yourself. We have a very good Building Inspector who applies regulations fairly.
When I lived CA a building permit cost $25-50K for a single family home, sewer taps $10-15K.

[NyFirefighter357]

but will do it before I call a plumber I hooked up a new lavatory and put a new top on the vanity. Plumber wanted to charge $280 just to hook up the lavatory. Crap I bought a Taurus G2C and 500 rds of ammo for that. So I don't hate plumbing that bad.

Here you need to file for permits & a licensed plumber needs to do the work. Oh well, not happening! Can't do any plumbing, electric or most construction without permits including a shed bigger than 8'x8'. If the shed is bigger than 200sqft it's considered a garage and needs a set of architect stamped plans.

[Idaho45guy]

Here you need to file for permits & a licensed plumber needs to do the work. Oh well, not happening! Can't do any plumbing, electric or most construction without permits including a shed bigger than 8'x8'. If the shed is bigger than 200sqft it's considered a garage and needs a set of architect stamped plans.

Gross.

I've built a bunch of sheds and remodeled many homes over the years, put up fences and built decks and never got a single permit. I'm an outlaw, I guess.

[Petrol & Powder]

Lots of jurisdictions require permits but that doesn't mean people obtain permits.

Nor does a permit, licensed professionals and inspection guarantee correct work.

The primary function of a building permit is to notify the locality of the improvement so that the real estate tax can be adjusted to reflect that improvement.

[Finster101]

Lots of jurisdictions require permits but that doesn't mean people obtain permits.

Nor does a permit, licensed professionals and inspection guarantee correct work.

The primary function of a building permit is to notify the locality of the improvement so that the real estate tax can be adjusted to reflect that improvement.

It can also become an issue when a home inspection reveals a modification and no permit was pulled when trying to sell the property.

[Petrol & Powder]

It can also become an issue when a home inspection reveals a modification and no permit was pulled when trying to sell the property.

I've sold properties "as is" and I've purchased properties "as is".

I lived in a farm house that was built in the 1840's - it wasn't exactly "up to code"
I also lived in a house built in the 1920's that had been repaired, updated and expanded over the years - None of it to anything that even resembled a building code. When the time came - those houses sold just fine.

I submitted to a pre-sale inspection one time and got a list of minor issues to repair. I repaired them and the buyer submitted a new list. I said, "there it is, buy it or don't". They purchased it.
I will NEVER sell a house again in anything other than "as is" condition. We can negotiate on price if the buyer doesn't like something but I'll never repair a home again to attempt to satisfy a potential buyer.

[Petrol & Powder]

Gross.

I've built a bunch of sheds and remodeled many homes over the years, put up fences and built decks and never got a single permit. I'm an outlaw, I guess.

Outlaw ? - No
Self-sufficient ? - Yes
Intelligent ? - Yes
Independent ? - Yes
Fiscally responsible ? - Yes

[Mr_Sheesh]

One resort in this area that I know a bunch about, had built some temporary structures (moveable sheds on skids etc.) - About 2 weeks later, the local inspector showed up, wanting to see these permanent structures. (This led to some confusion, I'm told, as the person they asked knew they were temporary.) The inspector had satellite imagery and showed them where the structures in question were, they showed them those, and all was well. So apparently some county inspection folks are "upping their game" technology wise.

(So our wise mouth folks suggested, "If you build something new, build it under the tree canopy!" lol)

[MrWolf]

I bought an old house in Iowa that had radiator heat with a coal-fired boiler in the basement. I wanted to convert it to a modern ducted natural gas system and central AC.

Cost me $24k twenty years ago. No way was I going to try it. HVAC guys know the proper placement of returns, proper size of ducting for efficiency, and a whole lot of other stuff that an uneducated do-it-yourselfer can really screw up. That was on a two-story 3000 sq. ft Victorian home.

Now, I have a 1400 square foot 1.5 story farmhouse that needs a similar system installed. I haven't even bothered to get a bid since I know I can't afford it.

Looks like doing it myself will still require a licensed contractor to run the black pipe and the vent even if I install the furnace and do all of the duct work myself. Hoping to avoid that project for as long as possible.

Have you looked into those mini split systems? Can heat and cool and very easy to install. I've put in four so far and were easy to do. I've sold both places that had them so no idea how they are still doing but for what they cost and what I got, I was satisfied. They come precharged.

[Idaho45guy]

Have you looked into those mini split systems? Can heat and cool and very easy to install. I've put in four so far and were easy to do. I've sold both places that had them so no idea how they are still doing but for what they cost and what I got, I was satisfied. They come precharged.

Never heard of them, but sound interesting.

I will likely replace the $300 Craigslist stove with a nicer and larger one with a thermostat and blower. My house is really efficient, so that little stove heats the place reasonably well. My monthly electric/gas bill is $122 on level pay. It was $84, until the utility company installed a "smart meter" and costs went up for everyone.

[Ed K]

Have you looked into those mini split systems? Can heat and cool and very easy to install. I've put in four so far and were easy to do. I've sold both places that had them so no idea how they are still doing but for what they cost and what I got, I was satisfied. They come precharged.

Truth is everything costs a lot of money nowadays. It doesn't matter what you consider, when it is DIY vs. a Pro the difference can be huge. This thread has been largely considering plumbing thus far and I agree with the tone. Now, for a bit of thread drift I was considering a mini-split. Got a quote from a local HVAC company for a simple system single outdoor compressor/condenser and an indoor air-handling unit with less than 10 apart. They would be in and out in a day for $9650. The unit can be purchased online and DIY for $3200!

Just spent an afternoon with my friend and neighbor taking down two trees for which a service quoted $2700!

Last month I emailed a draft letter to my attorney to which a dose of legalese was added and relayed to another party later the same day. The bill: $4500!

So I'm not saying any of these guys are bad guys - generally speaking we need them. Just that you have to watch out for yourself and maybe save a buck or two here and there when you are able or there will be no $$$ left for #1.

[Petrol & Powder]

Ed K- assuming that attorney spent the entire work day (8 hours) on that letter and that $4500 fee was just for his time, that's an hourly rate of $562.50/hour. I don't know any attorney worth that.
Now, if that was a flat fee for entire matter, and not just the culmination of an hourly rate; that's a horse of a different color.

[Winger Ed.]

Ed K- assuming that attorney spent the entire work day (8 hours) on that letter and that $4500 fee was just for his time, that's an hourly rate of $562.50/hour. I don't know any attorney worth that.
Now, if that was a flat fee for entire matter, and not just the culmination of an hourly rate; that's a horse of a different color.

Many of those letters are sort of like a 'fill in the blank' form sort of deal in their trade.
Here, $500 a hour is pretty standard for court room time for basic cases.
If you really need a lot of justice, and can afford it- it tends to cost more.

A lot of their high pay rate is a return on their investment for a ga-zillion dollar education, a few years 'earning their spurs',
and that is what the market will bear for the job they do.

[Petrol & Powder]

Many of those letters are sort of like a 'fill in the blank' form sort of deal in their trade.
Here, $500 a hour is pretty standard for court room time for basic cases.
If you really need a lot of justice, and can afford it- it tends to cost more.

A lot of their high pay rate is a return on their investment for a ga-zillion dollar education, a few years 'earning their spurs',
and that is what the market will bear for the job they do.


So are you saying that attorney spent 8 hours "filling in the blanks" on some boiler plate form and charged his client $562.50 per hour ?
Or did he only spend 30 minutes filling in the blanks and his hourly fee is really $9000/hour ?

The reality is the $150-$250 hourly rate isn't just for the attorney's time. That fee is for the wages of the support staff, the insurance and benefits of the support staff, the rent, the malpractice insurance, the utilities, the office supplies.....and what ever is left over is the attorney's income. That being said - if you're paying $500+ / hour to an attorney - you need to find another attorney.
However, if you're paying a flat fee for a case and the attorney spends 10 hours or 60 hours and it's the same flat fee - that's not an hourly rate.

So getting back to Ed K's $4500 for a letter; that was likely a $4500 fee for some job, not the total of an hourly rate to write a letter that took less than a day to complete. Let's be honest here.

[Winger Ed.]

So getting back to Ed K's $4500 for a letter; that was likely a $4500 fee for some job, not the total of an hourly rate to write a letter that took less than a day to complete.

You are correct sir, it was more of a fee, not a hourly rate to tell his legal secretary to make a few changes to
a form letter, or one he'd sent to someone else in the past.

[MT Gianni]

I bought a barely used natural gas stove off of Craigslist to replace the 70's oil burner in my house a few years ago. It's one of those stoves that looks like a traditional wood stove, but is natural gas, complete with ceramic logs.

I didn't have natural gas to my house, but the utility company said they would run it from the street and set a meter if I had an appliance installed. Gas company said I had to have a licensed contractor do the install.

Well, I set the stove and installed the chimney, then hired a local contractor to run the pipe from the stove to the exterior. He came in, ran 3' of pipe, inspected my chimney, and left a tag on it. $450. The utility company came and ran the line, set the meter, and verified the contractor's info on the tag he left.

If it were me, I would install a couple of Rennai vented space heaters on each floor. They run about $1800 for the larger size and $1500 for the smaller. Home Despot can order them in or Amazon. They are vent through the wall, 80%+ efficient and a good value. The only problem most have is the thermostat is floor level so you have to adjust the temperature to comfort rather than to 68F or 70F.
I have one in my basement that will heat the house for 48 hours when plugged into an emergency battery/120 V supply that sells for $80 or so. They are a good idea for the car when travelling, get the one with a compressor too, and the Rennai take so little power it will run the thermostat and fan if the power goes out.

[Petrol & Powder]

You are correct sir, it was more of a fee, not a hourly rate to tell his legal secretary to make a few changes to
a form letter, or one he'd sent to someone else in the past.

You paid a flat fee of $4500 for someone to edit a letter?
I've got this bridge that connects Manhattan to Brooklyn and I think you're just the guy I need to sell it to.

[Ed K]

I wrote "I emailed a draft letter to my attorney". It was not a form.

I then wrote "to which a dose of legalese was added." There was no claim that a paralegal/secretary did the work. To support the latter point the hours billed included conferring with two other attorneys in the practice (intellectual property and patent specialists).

Did I feel it was expensive? Oh yeah. However I didn't claim I was ripped off as I closed with "So I'm not saying any of these guys are bad guys - generally speaking we need them." I can't do what the attorneys did for me but I can install the mini-split to offset their bill! I guess that was the point of my post - do what you can do so at the end of the day there are still a few dollars left in your pocket.

[Petrol & Powder]

Ed K, I think it would be fair to say the attorney did a lot more for you than add a little "legalese" to your draft. It sounds like you needed to protect intellectual property, , they may have researched some patents, maybe researched some federal law, filed some materials to protect you and your work, they maybe even still be on retainer for additional work on that matter.

My point is, that $4500 was for a lot more than just editing a draft you sent him.

[MrWolf]

Wow. The mini splits have gone up that much? I paid $600 each maybe 10 - 13 years ago.

I just looked some up. Looks like around $700 shipped and may not have to pay sales tax. They are very easy to install. If I can do it you can too.

[fcvan]

Different states, different rules. Fortunately, I grew up in the trades. Dad, Grand Dad, and oldest brother were all cement finishers. Best friend down the street, his Dad was a carpenter. Neighbor across the street was an electrician, another a painter, another a welder/fabricator/ and a hell of an engine builder. The plumber was the next street over, but all of Dad's friends worked on each other's projects and I was allowed to watch and ask questions if I wasn't a pest.

As far as complicated plumbing, I got put on a pipe fitting crew when I worked in the oil fields, for one day. The lead crew boss knew I had a construction back ground, so when he needed a guy, he asked for me. Crash course learning but what a wealth of knowledge. That, and my crew often worked sites where the pipe fitters were and so I could watch and learn at times.

I had to re-wire a house that literally started out as a cabin that was added on to. I rewired it and had a retired Air Force electrician look my work over. He was a co-worker and he good old Virginia southern boy. 'That will pass County Code, but that will never pass Air Force standards.' When I cleaned it up and called for an inspection a couple of guys came out. Lead inspector said something like, 'Wow, that's good work. Who's your contractor, I need a new guy.' 'Me, I don't need a license for my own project.' 'True, I was just hoping to find another good electrician.' I gave him the name of a co-worker, another LEO, who had his license and worked the night shift so he could do day jobs on the side.

I read the comment about the guy who got hosed by an attorney. Thank god my attorney was a family friend who had also seen my work product from when I was assigned to the DA's office as a case by case investigator. I called to make an appointment for consultation and asked 'How would you like some free money?' Injury accident, drunk driver, open and shut case, with a reluctant insurance company. I showed up with my documents, forms, and legal exhibits. He looked at it briefly and asked 'What do you need me for?' I explained that I didn't have a Bar Card and I need a mouth piece. 'You did all the work, time and charges instead of %30 sound okay? Office rate is X, courtroom appearances is X times 2.' A year later of back and forth they settled, attorney got $2000 instead of $35000. Good thing I took some law classes along the way.

Some things require licenses and such, some require a lot of knowledge, but as has been said in previous posts, also the knowledge of when to hire the guy/gal with the knowledge and experience. I'll hire my oldest brother, he's now a General Contractor, but still concentrates on cement work. If I need HVAC work, I have a neighbor who does commercial HVAC with a family owned company. He also likes to cast and reload with me, and loves my wife's cooking. It never hurts to know the guy who knows the city and county guys on a first name basis.

[Winger Ed.]

I rewired it and had a retired Air Force electrician look my work over. He was a co-worker and he good old Virginia southern boy. 'That will pass County Code, but that will never pass Air Force standards.' When I cleaned it up and called for an inspection a couple of guys came out. .

In Virginia, I had a buddy who added a room on his house, and did the wiring himself.
He knew the inspector would be picky, so he read up on all the specs. & such, just to be sure he did everything right and to code.
When he felt it was all perfect, he called for an inspection.

A inspector came out, looked around, asked him if he had a licensed contractor do the job.
Fearing the worst, He told him, "Yes sir".
Inspector then said, "No you didn't".
"How can you tell"?
The inspector told him, "The ones around here don't do that good of work".

[Ed K]

My point is, that $4500 was for a lot more than just editing a draft you sent him.

Yes and no. A one-plus page draft was sent and a two-minus page finished product was forwarded to the other party's attorney. There was no patent search or patent development performed. The essence of the effort was the attorneys conferring with one another as to whether a trade secret or patent would be the best approach given the particulars of the situation. The primary attorney billed 6 hours @ $450; secondary attorneys 2 hours each. That was the actual bill - there is no balance left as retainer.

We seem to be focused off topic here. I never claimed the attorneys ripped me off. Only that it was a lot of money. What's more, I can't do what they did. Note that the labor alone (+ markup/overhead, etc) on the contractors bid for a single-day effort to install a mini split was more money than the attorney fees. Therefore I can install the mini-split and pay the attorney bill with the savings. That was the point of the post.

[David2011]

Our house has two AC systems; one for the bedrooms and study and another for the living area. I want the vent to the study put on the living area system. It’s a small room so system capacities are not an issue. An HVAC company recently quoted me almost $600 to move the flexible ducting from one plenum to the other; right beside each other, no additional ducting required. I asked for their hourly rate. It’s $175/hr. Over double what I charge to work on computers or firearms. I’m not charging enough.