BPCR Brass Cleaning Solutions for a Tumbler

[texasmac]

The subject article was published in the May edition of The Single Shot Exchange (SSE) Magazine. If you are not a subscriber you can access the article at the following link. http://www.texas-mac.com/BPCR_Brass_Cleaning_Solutions_for_a_Tumbler.html

Wayne

[dirtball]

Interesting article, THANKS for posting it. But why ceramic media for BPCR cases and stainless pins for everything else? Do the stainless pins harm the thinner walls of the BPCR cases? I have been cleaning brass with the stainless pins for a long time and I have just got back into BP about a year ago and am cleaning my 45-70 brass with stainless pins and so far not seen a problem.

Thanks
Dave

[texasmac]

Interesting article, THANKS for posting it. But why ceramic media for BPCR cases and stainless pins for everything else? Do the stainless pins harm the thinner walls of the BPCR cases? I have been cleaning brass with the stainless pins for a long time and I have just got back into BP about a year ago and am cleaning my 45-70 brass with stainless pins and so far not seen a problem.
Thanks
Dave

Dave, SS pins work very well for cleaning BPCR cases, but the result is burnishing (peening) & flaring of the case lip faster than with ceramic media. For more details on the subject click on the link to the brass cleaning article I referenced in the 1st paragraph of the cleaning solution article. I anneal my brass after each BPCR match, therefore the brass is susceptible to peening more so than cases that are rarely annealed. If SS pins are not causing a problem for you than stick with them. They do clean faster and tend to do a better job of getting the crud out of the "nooks and crannies".

Wayne

[dirtball]

Thanks for the reply. Since I do not resize my brass, only lightly taper crimp to keep the bullet from falling out, I do not anneal very often so I have not noticed any peening.

Dave

[greenjoytj]

I don’t believe it’s the SS pins that peen the case mouths, it’s that the pins offer little to no cushioning for the the cases as they churn in the tumbler. Bulkier ceramic media would provide some cushioning or separation to keep the case heads from clunking against delicate case mouths. It’s the case heads hitting the other case mouths that causes the peening.

I run a finger into the case mouth to feel for any peening. If I detect any roughness a couple of turns with my LEE deburring tool nips off the high spots. I like the Lee tool because it not so aggressive at stock removal which makes it more controllable.

I use Cascade powdered dishwashing machine detergent and a little citric acid or Lemi-Shine.
I use to add TSP but I found it makes the wash water too slick and oily feeling.
I think it reduced the the scouring action of the pins by making the cases act like that been lubed or at least churn in a oil bath, the pins just slide over a lubed surfaces of the cases.
Longer tumbling cleans the cases but longer tumbling time just makes more peening.

[texasmac]

I don’t believe it’s the SS pins that peen the case mouths, it that fact that the pins offer little to no cushioning for the the cases as they churn in the tumbler. Bulkier ceramic media would provide some cushioning or separation to keep the case heads from clunking against delicate case mouths. It’s the case heads hitting the other case mouths that causes the peening.

I agree with you. I don't believe I ever said that SS pins or ceramic media peen the case mouths or lips. If I did that's certainly not what I meant. As noted in the article on case cleaning and peening, I found that peening takes place with cases tumbled in plain water without any media, but the rate of peening is less than with SS pins or ceramic media. A case full of SS pins weigh significantly more than one filled with ceramic media, and when a case full of SS pins bangs into another case the peening is caused by the collision. Ceramic media does not act as a cushion. The peening is less because a full case of ceramic media weighs significantly less than a full case of SS pins, therefore the collisions have less force.

Thanks for your comments. I need to make this clearer in my article on cleaning and peening.

Wayne

[Lead pot]

Wayne,

I use Cascade and SST pins and my cases come out very clean and bright. I don't see a problem with peening and I use a Tumblers Tumbler as well as the Frankfort Arsenal tumbler that turned faster than the tumblers tumbler and it does not the the rubber lining making it harder then the tumblers tumbler.
But I just about use the barrel full of water and not just covering the cases and media. Maybe the water suds help dampen the cases banging together, I don't know.
I used to put the brass in a gallon jug at the range and shake it to get some of the fouling washed out and I saw that was peening the case lips so I quit doing that.
I been using Cascade for a very long time and you can see the cases pistol and the .44-90 bn cases look like new.

262183262181262182

[Chill Wills]

I get less or no case mouth "rollover" or peening using ceramic. The SS pins was a problem.
My shooting partner Woody gets less peening (ceramic) using less water in the drum. I get al lot of peenimg using less and the fix for me is filling to within an inch of the top - cleaner too in less time. We both have the old slow turning Thumblers Tumbler.

Isn't funny how two people can get two very different results! And using basically the same stuff. We've had a few late night lawn-chair beers on that subject after matches in Raton.

I gave up on the SS pins. The Ceramic is so much easier and better in so many ways.

[texasmac]

Chill Wills,

I agree with you. My extensive experimenting with case cleaning has proven to me beyond a shadow of doubt that, regardless of the media used, a tumbler completely full of water will result in less peening than one with less water.

BTW, tell Woody HI and that he most likely had too many beers when he came up with that conclusion. :D

Wayne

[Lead pot]

I use a mix of SST and Ceramic in my Tumblers Tumbler mainly to get the primer pockets cleaner.

[Chill Wills]

I use a mix of SST and Ceramic in my Tumblers Tumbler mainly to get the primer pockets cleaner.

That's funny Kurt. A mix of both. Why not if it works best for you!
My clean brass may not win the shiny award some people's do but they are clean. I stopped using Dave's M's stuff. Not because it did not work GREAT, because it does! I only stopped using it because I am cheap and I don't see Dave anymore. The Oxi-clean or any laundry detergent or dishwasher detergent plus Lemi-shine does fine. Plus, Dave stopped going to the Rifle matches I attend and that is how I would get it, buying in person and supporting his cottage business. Dave is a good guy and I hope he is doing well.

[Lead pot]

That's funny Kurt. A mix of both. Why not if it works best for you!
My clean brass may not win the shiny award some people's do but they are clean. I stopped using Dave's M's stuff. Not because it did not work GREAT, because it does! I only stopped using it because I am cheap and I don't see Dave anymore. The Oxi-clean or any laundry detergent or dishwasher detergent plus Lemi-shine does fine. Plus, Dave stopped going to the Rifle matches I attend and that is how I would get it, buying in person and supporting his cottage business. Dave is a good guy and I hope he is doing well.

I run two tumblers and one has the mix of the pins and ceramic. I started this when I came back home after two months on the road out your way and Montana shooting matches. I normally don't clean the cases till I get back home. I take 2000 rounds in several calibers and at one time I didn't close a water tight case and some damp air got in the case with the empty's and they were pretty bad so I mixed the media and it did a nice job so I never separated it for that tumbler :)
Like you I don't care if the brass is shiny I just want it clean. It don't shoot any better when it's bright.

I see Dave now and then at Alma MI but he does not shoot anymore. He gave some pointers once during a .22 silhouette match that I followed and it helped. Fine fellow for sure.

[Chill Wills]

Chill Wills,

I agree with you. My extensive experimenting with case cleaning has proven to me beyond a shadow of doubt that, regardless of the media used, a tumbler completely full of water will result in less peening than one with less water.

BTW, tell Woody HI and that he most likely had too many beers when he came up with that conclusion. :D

Wayne

Hello Wayne, I thought I replied. Well, I did in my mind. Sure, I'll say HI to Woody. We last shot the March match together just before this CV-19 hit. I hope we get this over and out soon and put the world (USA) back on it feet again!

[rfd]

great article, wayne. plenty of good scoop for all tumbler fans. lee's SSE magazine is one of the best, if not the best out there for all things BPCR. highly recommended to all, go get yerself on the SSE mailing list!

i finally chose to go a different route and have long since left the wet tumbler case cleaning devices for an ultra-sonic (hornady 2L). for me, the u/s is just lots faster (1/2 hour), lots quieter (if noise matters to some folks), does a great job of inside case cleaning (most important), and the brass comes out mirror bright. there are lots of different u/s brass cleaning solutions, and while i can and did make my own for awhile, i just use the hornady brand brass concentrate, 3ozs along with a gallon of distilled water, lasts a long time for more than a few cleanings = cheap enuf. once out of the u/s, the solution wet brass is rinsed with tap water and is either is left to dry as is, or wiped down, or tumbled for 5 to 10 minutes with corn media for a quick dry off. i usually just plop the batch o' brass into a large fluffy towel and wipe 'em down, done.

262263

[djryan13]

A little confused.... what ill effect does the peening have if you size and flare after?

I rinse my cases with water, vinegar.... Then they go in the dry tumbler. If they are really bad, I use the wet tumbler with SS pins, Dawn, Lemi.

[texasmac]

A little confused.... what ill effect does the peening have if you size and flare after?
I rinse my cases with water, vinegar.... Then they go in the dry tumbler. If they are really bad, I use the wet tumbler with SS pins, Dawn, Lemi.

If you cleaning process does result in some peening, resizing will not remove the peened edge but flaring may minimize the effect it has on your loading process. Resizing squeezes the case smaller but has little effect on removing any peening. Most of the flattened or rolled over edge is on the inside of the case lip. Once the bullet is seated, if the flare is removed with a resizing or crimping die the peened edge is forced into the bullet. For those of us that finger seat bullets into fireformed cases without any resizing, a peened edge can be a problem. Slightly flaring the mouth can help finger seating the bullet but when the flare is removed by a die or just pushing the cartridge into the chamber the edge is forced into the bullet. Those reading this that have a problem with peening may be interested in the following article: http://www.texas-mac.com/Removing_Case_Peened_LIp_Edge.html

Wayne

[John Boy]

Wayne - Great article and was surprised to read the multiple combinations you prepared when I opened my current issue of SSE
Strat-O-Sheen and I are old friends, including Dash and ceramic media
My post on Shiloh Rifle forum, May 2014
Strat-O-Sheen: Physical State = Solid
Boric Acid Percentage = 25 to 30%
pH = 7.5 (almost neutral) in 1% solution
The solution I use is 3oz of Strat-O-Sheen in one gallon of distilled water from my dehumififier
I'm working on my 3rd five pound box of the stuff
Then about a year later, got the bright idea to use plain Dash as a foaming/cleaning addition too. With the Dash 3X on the market now, it cleans much better.All it takes is a 2 second squirt of the stuff
My original media and what I still use are Kramer 3mm ceramic triangles - vintage 2013, that have never degraded as a media

In 2015, I put a post on the SASS Wire about using the 3 components with before and after pictures of BPCR cases. The thread ran for 4 or 5 pages, the word got out on the street and it has become a common rotary tumbler cleaning agent with media or pins.

[djryan13]

Excellent info. Thanks for taking time to post!

Edit... For smokeless bulk rifle, I always use stainless steel pins to take the rough edges out after trimming with the Dillon trimmer. I noted early on that I had to use the mouth sizer (Lyman M in most cases), AFTER I ran through the wet tumbler. The process really does do something to the mouth. That’s why I never liked to run wet tumbler for my precision and BP loads (at least not after sizing). Maybe try some ceramic someday but I don’t want to have to figure out a way to clean up the pins. With stainless, I use the magnet. What do folks do for ceramic?



If you cleaning process does result in some peening, resizing will not remove the peened edge but flaring may minimize the effect it has on your loading process. Resizing squeezes the case smaller but has little effect on removing any peening. Most of the flattened or rolled over edge is on the inside of the case lip. Once the bullet is seated, if the flare is removed with a resizing or crimping die the peened edge is forced into the bullet. For those of us that finger seat bullets into fireformed cases without any resizing, a peened edge can be a problem. Slightly flaring the mouth can help finger seating the bullet but when the flare is removed by a die or just pushing the cartridge into the chamber the edge is forced into the bullet. Those reading this that have a problem with peening may be interested in the following article: http://www.texas-mac.com/Removing_Case_Peened_LIp_Edge.html

Wayne

[John Boy]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Hcx-5fOlL._AC_SX679_.jpg
Pour the brass and media into it with a rinse bucket underneath. Or hand pick the brass out of the drum, rinse the media and decant the water out

[texasmac]

My method is the same as John Boy's.

Wayne

[Hogpost]

Hmmmm..., never thought it could get so complex or expensive. I have a big Lortone rubber-drum tumbler for the big stuff, and a little Thumbler's Tumbler for small lots of pistol like 44-40 & 455 Webley.
I just use cheap bulk long-grain rice (0.29/lb) and a big blop** of Meguiar's polishing compound from the local car-parts store. Turn the tumbler on in the garage at bedtime, next morning they look like new.
When the rice gets too black, I just throw it away and pour in some new. Guess I'm not having nearly as much fun.....
**Blop: highly technical measurement. Note that metric blops are smaller than American.

[texasmac]

Hogpost,

Interesting. Do you use any water with the rice and Meguiar's polishing compound? I'm guessing not since I assume that would soften the rice.

Wayne

[Hogpost]

Nope, no liquid; and not-quite full drum, 3/4 or a bit more, to ensure good circulation. Must admit I do spend some time poking the rice bits out of primer holes, but I'm never in a hurry anyway, and it gives me something to do while listening to good Dixieland music.

[indian joe]

Nope, no liquid; and not-quite full drum, 3/4 or a bit more, to ensure good circulation. Must admit I do spend some time poking the rice bits out of primer holes, but I'm never in a hurry anyway, and it gives me something to do while listening to good Dixieland music.

thank you for making me feel better!! I too use rice and a (metric) blop of polishing compound in a drum tumbler - that is when I have been shamed into wanting shiney brass, most times I just settle for clean and have found nothing better than citric acid in a little cheep ultrasonic cleaner to get the blackpowder crud out of the innards of my cases

[Chill Wills]

Hmmmm..., never thought it could get so complex or expensive. I have a big Lortone rubber-drum tumbler for the big stuff, and a little Thumbler's Tumbler for small lots of pistol like 44-40 & 455 Webley.
I just use cheap bulk long-grain rice (0.29/lb) and a big blop** of Meguiar's polishing compound from the local car-parts store. Turn the tumbler on in the garage at bedtime, next morning they look like new.

Yup. Interesting.
When I got my first Springfield 1873 and then the Ruger #3 I loaded both with smokeless powder and then tried BP. Up to that point I had only shot BP in muzzle loaders. So now I had this new problem. Much dirtier cases than I had experienced before. I tried to clean my BP soiled brass like I did everything else, in the Vibratec with walnut and polishing rouge. After a few firings I noticed something. Red dust and dry BP fouling dust starting to mix and build up on the inside of the 45-70 cases. It was hard and caked on. That had to be fixed.

What followed were the years of the bottle brushes chucked in the electric drill, soapy water and then a good tumble after letting them dry. It was a pain but I was shooting Black Powder and loving it.

Then about 2001 the wet cleaning with ceramic media saved me.

I clean them wet because wet is what I evolved to and works for me best.

So Hogpost, this works (dry) with BP cases? Your cleaning BP cases dry?
Hmmm, if so, that is interesting.

[indian joe]

Yup. Interesting.
When I got my first Springfield 1873 and then the Ruger #3 I loaded both with smokeless powder and then tried BP. Up to that point I had only shot BP in muzzle loaders. So now I had this new problem. Much dirtier cases than I had experienced before. I tried to clean my BP soiled brass like I did everything else, in the Vibratec with walnut and polishing rouge. After a few firings I noticed something. Red dust and dry BP fouling dust starting to mix and build up on the inside of the 45-70 cases. It was hard and caked on. That had to be fixed.

What followed were the years of the bottle brushes chucked in the electric drill, soapy water and then a good tumble after letting them dry. It was a pain but I was shooting Black Powder and loving it.

Then about 2001 the wet cleaning with ceramic media saved me.

I clean them wet because wet is what I evolved to and works for me best.

So Hogpost, this works (dry) with BP cases? Your cleaning BP cases dry?
Hmmm, if so, that is interesting.

Chill
I clean mine wet with the citric acid and ultrasonic jewellery cleaner - nothing beats that for getting the gunk out of the innards - 10 to 15 minutes in the ultrasonic, a quick dry blow with the air compressor and they done - then if I might be embarrassed by them not being new brass shiney then I will use Hogpost's rice and polish plan to finish off - maybe 20 minutes in the tumbler gets em like new on the outside.