Remington 1858 and ROA; how many shots without cleaning?

[Onty]

When shooting Remington 1858 and Ruger Old Army; how many cylinders or shots could be fired without cleaning revolver? Are some propellants better than others? Does lubricant play any significant role in this?

Thanks

[pietro]

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I use Crisco lard as both a lube and to seal the chamber mouths - while allow me to shoot all day (usually around 30-40 rounds) w/o cleaning.

The Crisco lube gets around the gun after awhile, but it also keeps fouling soft, and cleans up easily.

Naturally, I always clean after the end of a day's shooting.

.

[Outpost75]

Lubricant is everything. Good discussion in this older thread: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?222851-Lube-for-cap-amp-ball-revolvers
8
A 50-50 ratio by melted liquid volume of beeswax and olive oil is tradition, inexpensive and effective. I use a Buffalo Arms vegetable fiber card wad over the powder, then apply a pea-sized dab of the olive oil-beeswax mixture using a cake decorator when at the range, or applied using a wooden stir stick dipping lube from a cap can, if in a hunting situation. I then seat the ball on top. When this is done with a correctly snug-fitting ball you don't need any grease over the ball and the grease all goes down the barrel to keep the fouling soft, rather than being blown everywhere else, but where it is really needed!

I use Goex 3Fg in a full charge in which you can feel powder compression at the end of the rammer stroke. I use a .457" ball to get a good snug fit. The chambers of my Pietta Remington have been reamed to .4525" so that I can use the same size balls as in my Ruger Old Army. I use straight olive oil on the cylinder pin in cold weather, or otherwise the 50-50 mixture for summer range use.

In both the Ruger Old Army and the Remington I remove the cylinder for reloading and use a loading stand, so each time I can wipe down the cylinder, frame window with a microfiber cloth and clean the cylinder pin hole using a .22 cotton bore mop moistened with olive oil. For hunting use I carry the revolver loaded and two extra loaded cylinders in leather pouches. I can fire off all 18 rounds in either gun without the cylinder binding.

In my 1905 Colt Single-Action .44-40 I carry a pocket needle oiler with olive oil in it and if I apply a drop or two on the base pin every other cylinder full I can shoot continuously until my ammo runs out.

[rodwha]

I use Gatofeo’s #1 lube and haven’t ever needed to stop for cleaning IF I use Ballistol on the Remington’s base pin. My Ruger isn’t as temperamental. And my bullets are designed with a very small shallow lube groove. When I’ve made paper cartridges I’ve shot as many as 10 cylinders in a sitting. I do wipe the exterior periodically, but not because it’s beginning to bind. I use mostly Olde Eynsford black powder.

[Woodnbow]

If I’m going to shoot more than a few cylinders full I will use lube discs made of half and half beeswax and olive oil melted into paper towels and punched out. I load on the gun and the ROA will run all day on Swiss 3f and these lube pills.

[indian joe]

If I’m going to shoot more than a few cylinders full I will use lube discs made of half and half beeswax and olive oil melted into paper towels and punched out. I load on the gun and the ROA will run all day on Swiss 3f and these lube pills.

Interesting ...more info please - we been using egg carton soaked in bullet lube over the powder in an 1860 army (my son's gun its a deep rifled barrel also use a half measure of lube over ball as well) but chop up a lot of egg carton to get the little straight bits . Do you layer several paper towels? How thick the lube disc?
I use straight lube discs of bullet lube poured on oven paper and punched in my 1851 navy/44fake replica - thisn has shallow groove and just ball on powder and smear the lube disc over top, its the least messy way I found of loading anything over the ball (the gun likes the load so I am not arguing) We both started out using waterpump grease over the ball - read that in a book somewhere (dumb book I reckon) - guns shot ok but man was it a mess loading.

[Outpost75]

Keith in his book Sixguns has a great chapter on management of the cap & ball sixgun. He cut felt wads from old felt hats. As a kid I boiled and felted old WW2 Army blankets and cut wads from them, lubricating the wads with the beeswax-olive oil, or a beeswax-neatsfoot oil mixture. I cut dry cardboard over-powder wads from old shotshell boxes, ice cream cartons, butter or lard containers. If a deck of old playing cards ever had a few missing, I'd use those to cut over-powder wads or steal the jokers from Mom's bridge decks...

[Woodnbow]

I usually use two layers of towels. I’ve used as many as 6 but didn’t really see any improvement in function. I lay them out in an old baking dish and pour a layer of lube over the towels to a depth of 1/16 or so. Let it cool, dust it with cornstarch so I can layer the sheets when cool and punch them out without sticking. The lube itself is heat resistant to at least 100 degrees, 90 is about as hot as it ever gets up here at 7500’ but I’ve used them in the canyons at 4000’ in summer and they were fine. They’re not my idea but I sure am glad I came across them!

Btw. I use grease too. White lithium grease inside the works. Once a year or so I strip the pistols, degrease everything for inspection, regrease and reassemble. This is the smartest trick, cleanups take no longer than a modern arm since all it requires is to clean the cylinder and barrel, wipe down the exterior, oil and reload.

[stubshaft]

I make my own wads from sheets of felt from Duro-Felt and a mixture of 60/40 beeswax/lard. I melt the mix and pour it onto the felt, then place in a warm oven so that the felt is saturated with the lube. I let it cool off and punch out the wads.

I have two ROA's and one 1858, which I lube the cylinder pins with the above lube prior to shooting. I generally load the ROA's with 25 grs. of whatever I have on hand 3F, Pyrodex, Clearshot etc.. I charge the cylinder, place the wad on the powder and seat the ball. I do NOT put anything over the ball as it makes a mess and is not needed.

I can shoot ALL DAY without worrying about fouling in my ROA's but do have to wipe the cylinder pin every so often in the 1858 (looser tolerance = more fouling). The ROA's will maintain their accuracy and print the same 1 1/2" groups at the end of the day.

[Win94ae]

Only when I got into muzzle-loading rifles, did I find black powder fouling to be extreme.
I use GOEX FFFg in the revolver, with Crisco. I lube the revolver with motor oil.
The 50cal rifle uses a saboted 45cal bullet and Pyrodex FFg substitute.
The fouling in the rifle is excessive, but it takes deer down pretty well; so I don't mind cleaning it after every shot.

[LynC2]

I make my own wads from sheets of felt from Duro-Felt and a mixture of 60/40 beeswax/lard. I melt the mix and pour it onto the felt, then place in a warm oven so that the felt is saturated with the lube.

For my Rem 1858 I also punch my wads from Duro-Felt and saturate them in melted Gato Feo lube. Works very well and doesn't make a big mess like when I used crisco to smear the front cylinder back in the early 60's when I was a teen.

[rodwha]

Only when I got into muzzle-loading rifles, did I find black powder fouling to be extreme.
I use GOEX FFFg in the revolver, with Crisco. I lube the revolver with motor oil.
The 50cal rifle uses a saboted 45cal bullet and Pyrodex FFg substitute.
The fouling in the rifle is excessive, but it takes deer down pretty well; so I don't mind cleaning it after every shot.

Ever try 3F in your rifle? It would reduce the fouling and either give you a higher velocity or you could reduce the load ~10% to achieve about the same and use a little less powder each time.

[Woodnbow]

You might also ditch the motor oil. It isn’t a very good fit with Black Powder fouling, contributes to a hard and tarry residue...

[Nobade]

I run mine the same way LynC2 does. Haven't found a point that they don't work. Usually I run out of ammo, time, or enthusiasm first.

[KCSO]

Depends on how you load what you lube with and such. I use home made felt wads lubed with bees wax and bear oil and can shoot all day without cleaning 20-25 shots. Wonder wads are only good for 12 or so and Crisco is way to sloppy for me and it makes me hungry for Mc Donald's fries. The other factor is how tight your gun is set up. I use a shim to set barrel cylinder gap the same all the time. I have seen guys tap the wedge in so tight that 6 shots and the cylinder is hard to turn no matter the lube. Not a problem with the Remington's.

[Onty]

...I have two ROA's and one 1858, which I lube the cylinder pins with the above lube prior to shooting. I generally load the ROA's with 25 grs. of whatever I have on hand 3F, Pyrodex, Clearshot etc.. I charge the cylinder, place the wad on the powder and seat the ball. I do NOT put anything over the ball as it makes a mess and is not needed.

I can shoot ALL DAY without worrying about fouling in my ROA's but do have to wipe the cylinder pin every so often in the 1858 (looser tolerance = more fouling). The ROA's will maintain their accuracy and print the same 1 1/2" groups at the end of the day.
As a matter of fact, I asked here because on another forum I had discussion about revolver cleaning after some shots. Couple fellows stated that after only 12 rounds on Remington clone, they had to clean it. With Colt 1851 clones, they did not experience such problem.

Anyhow, after reading their statements and yours, I became suspicious that must be a valid reason for all you mentioned. Well, I looked more closely into cylinders of Remington and ROA, and found something interesting.

Here is Remington cylinder:

https://px.twotap.com/unsafe/http%3A//images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_210304_999_01

Here is ROA cylinder:

https://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/g/0NsAAOSwqoxcHN1H/s-l225.jpg

Could you see the difference? Remington cylinder is flat on front face. Ruger cylinder has a small boss, protrusion. Now, look at this picture:

https://i.imgur.com/McTX9Bv.jpg?1

See little groove on protruding boss. I think that this grooved boss prevents debris from getting into central hole, and this is the main reason why ROA could be shoot all day long without cleaning, but Remington 2, max. 3 cylinders, and cleaning is a must. Of course, closer tolerance on ROA helps too.

Also, there is a British company, converting Czech Alfa DA revolvers into front loading ones with new cylinders for #209 shotgun primers http://www.westlakeengineering.com/products/ . Shooter also complained because of central hole fouling. Take a look https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y60TG0NxDuM&t=494 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu2HCXdoMiQ&t=47 . Cylinder is even counter bored on front face. No wonder they have problem with debris seizing revolver.

[Hellgate]

I’m a bit late on this thread but I just buy 1/2” 45 cal filler wads from track of the wolf, lube them and split them with a box knife. A 1/8-1/4” wad under the ball is so quick and non messy to use. Lube is 50/50 beeswax and olive oil or lard. My Euroarms Remingtons will shoot all day long with just the wads but my Ubertis need a single drop of oil where the front of the cylinder rubs the frame between loadings to go all day.

[SSGOldfart]

Check out www.geojohn.org this is the best advise,I can shoot 50 plus rounds in my ROA without cleaning maybe more??

[Harter66]

I shoot my own screened powder . The first time out I shot 2 cylinders in my 58' and had to hand rotate the last 3 shots .
The last time out I shot about 100 rounds and still turned free .
I was using felt punched wads gifted to me from a guy that had a friend in a western store and access to lots of felt hats . The method is to get the wads just damp with olive oil in a Ziploc bag , I was trying in earnest to use up some bore butter so I was wiping in just enough to make a full ring around each chamber mouth and ball . Charges were equal to about 25 gr of FFFg Goex in the 44 . Sure it made a mess but it was easily mopped off every other cylinder . No hang fires or doubles .

[bedbugbilly]

I don't shoot an Army version but do shoot a Rem Navy version in 36. For many, many years I have used 1 pound of Crisco and one real beeswax toilet bowl ring melted together for lube. In my .36, I use 18 grains of 3F Goex - a 1/8" leather wad that I punch out of my leather scraps from leather work soaked in the melted BP lube with a .375 ball. I do put a dab of the lube over the ball. Prior to shooting, I lube the cylinder/cylinder pin well with the lube. I load the cylinder in the pistol - i.e. I don't use a cylinder press. To be honest, I don't think I have ever fired it to the point where the cylinder starts to get bound up with fouling - but I do know that I can easily get 12 to 15 cylinders off without any issues and then I usually switch of to y '51 Uberti Navy - which also can do the same thing.

I do have one of the Uberti Remington '58 revolving carbines but haven't had a chance to really play with it yet. I plan to shoot it as C & B as well as shoot 45 Colt in it as I got a conversion cylinder for it. On my "to buy" list is a Uberti '58 Army .44 to go with it to shoot C * B and with the conversion cylinder. I have owned a few .44s over the years but mainly I have always shot Navies for 55 plus years.

Everyone does things differently. There are so many "best BP lubes and formulas" out there that it would take years to try them all. One has to remember that at one time, combustible cartridges were commonly used and I'm sure that even thought the cylinder pin may have been lubed by the owner of the pistol, at some point the pistol would have become fouled enough to give cylinder rotation issues - but during the Civil War - in a battle - probably not enough rounds were fired to the point that it became an issue unless over a period of several days. In civilian use, with no combustible cartridges available to the pistol owner for one reason or another, the pistols were loaded like many of us do now - flask, ball, etc. and a bit of some sort of grease smeared over the ball - not only for lube fut to keep moisture out if carried loaded.

Some folks object to putting a dab of lube over the ball but I just have always loaded that way. Yes, it can get "messy" but I also think that as you fire and the lube melts and spreads out over the pistol, it does help to keep fouling soft everywhere it goes and thus can help things keep going longer without a bind up. I don't mind it and I always have an old hand towel with me to wipe my hands as well as the outside of the revolver if it gets too messy after a few cylinders;omders. I hunted cottontails with a '51 Navy when I was a kid and I still loaded the same way - of course I might only get a shot or two - probably never more than a cylinder of 5 rounds during a good hunting day. The first shot would make some of the lube in the adjoining chambers flow a little but never a real issue - to me,. the key is to just make sure the cylinder pin is well lubed, decent cylinder gap (if open top Colt) and not be afraid to use BP lube.

[Onty]

Check out www.geojohn.org this is the best advise,I can shoot 50 plus rounds in my ROA without cleaning maybe more??

Sir, thank you so much for this link! I am not into revolver BP (muzzle loading) yet, trying to learn as much as possible. From what I found, this is the most comprehensive manual about shooting these revolvers.

I always felt that sharp edges on chambers is not the best solution, and slight chamfering them is the way to go. I was especially concerned about chain fire, and was presently surprised that chamfering is effective way to (almost) eliminate chain fire. On top of that, chamfering improves accuracy, and even reduces ramming force when seating bullet.

Author does not recommend cleaning revolvers with warm water and soap. Also, he states that lube in front of bullet helps nothing, but rather makes things worse regarding chain fire, creating mess by spreading lube everywhere, making revolver slippery and difficult to handle.

[Fly]

Sir, thank you so much for this link! I am not into revolver BP (muzzle loading) yet, trying to learn as much as possible. From what I found, this is the most comprehensive manual about shooting these revolvers.

I always felt that sharp edges on chambers is not the best solution, and slight chamfering them is the way to go. I was especially concerned about chain fire, and was presently surprised that chamfering is effective way to (almost) eliminate chain fire. On top of that, chamfering improves accuracy, and even reduces ramming force when seating bullet.

Author does not recommend cleaning revolvers with warm water and soap. Also, he states that lube in front of bullet helps nothing, but rather makes things worse regarding chain fire, creating mess by spreading lube everywhere, making revolver slippery and difficult to handle.

Well like as said before, everyone has there own option. People have used lube over the cylinder's ever since these pistols were first invented. They also used hot soapy water for cleaning as almost all do. I gest that author
knows more than all the people that preceded him. For me I will continue greasing the front of my cylinders as I have done for 40 years & cleaning with hot soap & water. I still have my first cap & ball revolver that I have had all those years. It shoots better today than when I
first bought it.

JMOHOP Fly