How do you work up revolver loads?

[Bazoo]

I'm curious as to how others work loads up for such as 38 special and 357 magnum.

Im in the process or working up a load using unique and the RCBS 38-150-SWC in 38 special. I can't find data for this combo so I'm extrapolating data. From what I've found data for lead bullets of similar weight is approximately 3.5-5.0 grains.

In the past what I've done is make 5 or 10 cartridges to test at 5 intervals between min and max. Starting at the minimum charge and ending at the max. Then I shoot them and see how they group. If there is one that shoots good, I load a box or two to try.

So let's say hypothetically, I test 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 4.7, and 5.0. And that 4.5 grains happens to shoot an inch at 15 yards. Should I go to the trouble of loading 4.4 and 4.6 grain charges to test?

Is there a better method to determine a handgun load? What does everyone else do?

Bazoo

[Scrounge]

I'm curious as to how others work loads up for such as 38 special and 357 magnum.

Im in the process or working up a load using unique and the RCBS 38-150-SWC in 38 special. I can't find data for this combo so I'm extrapolating data. From what I've found data for lead bullets of similar weight is approximately 3.5-5.0 grains.

In the past what I've done is make 5 or 10 cartridges to test at 5 intervals between min and max. Starting at the minimum charge and ending at the max. Then I shoot them and see how they group. If there is one that shoots good, I load a box or two to try.

So let's say hypothetically, I test 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 4.7, and 5.0. And that 4.5 grains happens to shoot an inch at 15 yards. Should I go to the trouble of loading 4.4 and 4.6 grain charges to test?

Is there a better method to determine a handgun load? What does everyone else do?

Bazoo

Can you consistently measure 1/10 of a grain? That is something like .00648 grams. If so, it might be worth your while. If not, don't bother. What you maybe could do if it's really important to you instead is use a bulkier powder, if you can find one for pistols. It's easier to measure a whole grain, or two or three, than 1/10th. Now all you have to do is find a powder that will work in both. I looked at Alliant 2400, and it's got load data for .38spl+P & .357mag, but not standard .38spl. Green Dot is a shotgun powder, but is also used in some larger pistol cartridges, like my .45acp, but not in .38spl. And those loads also increment in 1/10 grain steps. It might take some serious research. I'm not exactly new to reloading, but I've been out of it for a long time, and I'd strongly hesitate to try to measure that small a quantity of powder. I have no desire to have to pick parts of my pistols out of my face. Maybe in a few years when I feel more competent than I do now. Naturally, YMMV.

[Bazoo]

My scale measures to the 1/10 grain. Can I consistently use it? I reckon. I use it all the time.

Unique will work for both 38 special and 357 magnum. Unique will only work to about mid level 357 magnum loads though. I plan to use W296 for the magnum loads. I may end up making some +P or light magnums but I'm not working on that currently. Just standard 38 special and full power 357.

[downzero]

I would use a chrono to get the velocity I want. I bet I could shoot 100 or 1000 of the same handgun load and not tell the difference in mechanical accuracy.

And fwiw, I'm not an inexperienced handgun shooter at all. I probably have shot more rounds through a single handgun than most people shoot in a lifetime.

[dhom]

I'm curious as to how others work loads up for such as 38 special and 357 magnum.

Im in the process or working up a load using unique and the RCBS 38-150-SWC in 38 special. I can't find data for this combo so I'm extrapolating data. From what I've found data for lead bullets of similar weight is approximately 3.5-5.0 grains.

In the past what I've done is make 5 or 10 cartridges to test at 5 intervals between min and max. Starting at the minimum charge and ending at the max. Then I shoot them and see how they group. If there is one that shoots good, I load a box or two to try.

So let's say hypothetically, I test 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 4.7, and 5.0. And that 4.5 grains happens to shoot an inch at 15 yards. Should I go to the trouble of loading 4.4 and 4.6 grain charges to test?

Is there a better method to determine a handgun load? What does everyone else do?

Bazoo
There is nothing wrong with the way you are testing. Myself, I usually start my testing at 25 yds. If I end up with more than one load shooting well I back the target up to 50 yds, if I still don't have a winner [accuracy wise] I will go to 100 yds. If I decide to tweak the load I usually go 2 or 3 tenths at a time.

[sharps4590]

What dhom said. 15 yards is pretty close unless you're wanting purely SD loads. I'd think at that distance it would be difficult to see much difference in any of them, unless a load was particularly bad.

[Three44s]

I say refine your charges as much as you care to.

I use the manuals as much as I have information, then a wee bit of extrapolation where necessary. Then as I am working up I also watch for easy extraction. With clean chambers I strive for my empties to practically fall out. With bear loads in magnum guns I will tolerate a bit of a snap when ejecting but never a struggle.

Between Unique and H110 or WW296 there sits HS 6 and 2400. Try them, they are also grand powders!

Three44s

[tazman]

For what it's worth, the RCBS 38-150-SWC is nearly identical to the Lyman 358477. You may be able to find data for that boolit.
You can always use data for 158 grain boolits.
That said, the method you are using will work.
Loading the higher charge weights after you find a great shooting load is a good test because you may have just found the low edge of a plateau where heavier charges shoot just as accurately and go faster. Good information to have.
Sometimes those heavier charges group poorly but you will never know without testing.

[Conditor22]

There is nothing wrong with the way you are testing. Myself, I usually start my testing at 25 yds. If I end up with more than one load shooting well I back the target up to 50 yds, if I still don't have a winner [accuracy wise] I will go to 100 yds. If I decide to tweak the load I usually go 2 or 3 tenths at a time.

100 yards ---- WOW you guys have much better eyes than I do.

As to load development, I shoot 4 or 5 shot groups, print targets, and labels for each load. Depending on the load spread in the book I'll divide the spread by 5, find the best group (s) and narrow it down from there to .1 grains when done.
'
I do all my load development off a bench with a solid rest to eliminate as many variables as I can.

I do my handgun testing at 35 feet.

[StrawHat]

When did measuring .1 grain become a problem? I haven’t kept up with new equipment so I am still using a balance scale.

Kevin

[Bazoo]

I appreciate the replies.

I don't have a chrono yet, but I'm wanting one. I do shoot farther than 15 yards, I just start there. I test from a bench with wrists rested but no parts of the gun touching.

I shoot out past 100 yards with a handgun offhand. I don't normally test loads at 100, just shoot some steel I have. I have a 6" plate I can hit about half the time at 100. I have a 2/3 IPSC, I can hit it consistently to 100 but do decent out to 150 yards with my 1911. There was a time when I shot every single day rain or shine. Now I shoot 2-3 times a week.

[bangerjim]

I don't measure every wheel gun load!!!!! OMG....I would be at it forever. I get my auto powder measure to within ~0.3 grains of my load using my electronic scales and after several checks for repeatability, I load a ton of the carts I am working on. Revolvers are for close up a personal, so 100 yards(!!!!) is totally out of the question, at least for me. The farthest I go with 44M and 357M (long barrels) is about 40 yards and then the boolits are better than my eyesight! Most are 15-25 yards max. I am happy with that. Not trying to win any prizes.....just make a bunch of holes grouped close together!

banger

[Win94ae]

I use an Audette Ladder Test at 25 yards. Load up cartridges from a middle of the road powder charge, to max, in .2grain increments, shoot the cartridges noting the shot count, then observe which consecutive hits are closer. Load up 3 or so cartridges with the charge weights I deem appropriate, and test them for precision.
I usually come up with a 4.5MOA load, but have gotten better on occasion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcvp6IEbz64

I do the same with a rifle, or pistol. I use up a lot less components doing it this way.

[Bazoo]

I don't weigh every charge when loading, I use a powder measure too. I don't weigh charges when working up loads either for that matter. I set my measure and throw however many I want to test.

Why I'm into handguns in general, and longer ranges particularly with revolvers, I don't know. Just what I like.

[Biggin]

Most of what I do is plinking and playing so I usually don't get to critical with it . If it doesn't lead the barrel and I can smack a head size target at 25 yards I'm happy. O suppose if I ever get back to hunting I'll be a little more particular.YMMV

[rintinglen]

measuring .1 grains is not the problem, but throwing a charge with a powder measure consistently that measures to the tenth of a grain, especially with a fairly bulky powder like Unique is. Most of my pistol ammo is loaded on a progressive press, using a ball powder, or very fine flake powder. When loading for pistols and revolvers, weighing scores or even hundreds of charges gets pretty tedious and for most purposes is not necessary. It is seldom, if ever, that .1 grains will make difference in handgun accuracy, though in small cases like the 25 or 32 ACP it matters in chamber pressure.

[Bazoo]

I've not had any issues getting consistent throws with my lee ppm. I have a technique in my throw that gives a knock in the up stroke and it helps a lot. Unique will throw a tenth light sometimes but not all over the place.

I'm using unique because I like it, and it's what I have that is suitable for 38 special. I'm using 296 for magnum loads because it's what I have. I don't have 2400 currently but I like it.

[dverna]

I am not anal about pistol loads.

In your example. I test in .3 gr intervals in my favorite .38/.357 rifle at 50 yards. Then test the best loads in my other .38/.357’s to see if accuracy is acceptable. I pick the load that works the best in all my .38/.357 guns.

I have seven guns in that caliber. .38’s are the vast majority of what we shoot and I load thousands with a Dillon 1050. It will drop within +/- .1 gr most of the time and .2 nearly always. The load must have a large enough window to take that degree of variation.

My needs are bulk ammunition that works well in every gun. I am not a good enough shot, or have any uses, where an improvement of 1.5” at 15 years in the pistols, or 1.5” at 50 yards in the rifles matters.

When I shot Bullseye decades ago, I had a specific load for optimum accuracy...but in that use, it mattered. Now life is simpler. Having the best load for each of seven guns is not important to me. My load is likely more accurate than factory ammunition and that is adequate for me.

If I was going to hunt deer with a pistol, that would change things and I would get anal. For SD, I use factory ammunition....but if I used handloads, bullet type and energy would trump minor accuracy differences.

[DHDeal]

It depends on the cartridge of course. If it's a relatively small case, say a 327 or 357, I'll go .3 grain increments and if it's one of the larger cases I'll go .5 grain increments. I'll also say I won't waste my time on a bullet that I can't get in bulk or that I can't get a mold for. My best luck has been with cast LFN styles in revolvers by a large margin. I also find standard or heavy for caliber bullets tend to shoot accurately in my revolvers. With jacketed bullets, some mentioned above always shoot great. The Match styles that Sierra makes are great and a heavy XTP will be fantastic. Another good, but gone bullet was the Hornady Silhouette bullet in 357.

I personally feel weighed charges give better results when testing and I have and use a magnetic force restoration balance scale and I can weigh tiny amounts of H110 as an example. That said, I also feel weighed charges is only part of accuracy testing. Because I'm anal or maybe OCD on reloading, I also do case prep work, use optics, and will start at 50 yards off of a rest. Is what I do necessary? No not at all, but I consider it as enjoyable as I consider trying to cast perfect bullets. I'll use an Oehler Chronograph after I know how accurate a load will shoot. The chronograph has given me some surprises, but rarely does a very accurate load give bad ES/SD numbers.

I never start at a minimum charge as I haven't found accuracy there. With the medium and slow powders I use, they don't work well at lower pressures anyway. I'm sure there are exceptions to the ideas I have on charge weights, but I haven't found them. I also see my favorite powders mentioned above. HS6 and H110 will always shoot at least good for me. I've just bought a few pounds of AA9 and Bluedot to try in a 327 that I shoot heavy for caliber bullets out of.

[charlie b]

I've never really bothered to do a ladder test for pistols. I don't shoot them past 50yd and usually am at 15-25yd as I practice drills. The only work up I have done in the past is when going to max loads for a pistol. Then I will start a bit low and work up. I use a progressive press so I measure charges by volume and check the weight of one every now and then to make sure it is ok. I will clock some loads with the chronograph to make sure they are in the velocity range I want. That is also my check that I am below max for the pistol. One of the factors of my choice in powders is how well it meters from a powder measure, so fine grain or ball powder is preferred.

[Outpost75]

I have been using the same loads in .38 Special and .45 ACP for over 50 years. I don't change powders or bullets like people change their socks or brand of laundry detergent. Last time I bought powder in 1990 I bought a case of four 8-lb. caddies of Bullseye which I am still using. I cast Saeco #348 146-grain DEWC bullets in .38 and H&G68s in .45 ACP in 100-pound heats, use a Star luber and loading machine. I load 3.5 grains of Bullseye in .38 Special and 5 grains in .45 ACP.

My .38 "full-charge wadcutter" loads in .38 Special are useful general-purpose for either target or field. Firing from a BSA-Martini action with heavy Green Mountain barrel with .38 AMU chamber and 10X Unertl scope they average under 2 inches for a long string of ten-shot groups at 50 yards. The .45 ACP loads do the same from a single-shot test fixture.

A well turned out target revolver or acccurized M1911 fired from Ransom rest will approach the test barrel grouping.

I follow a similar approach in my .44 and .45 revolvers, using 4 grains of Bullseye in the Colt New Service .455 and .45 Auto Rim, 5 grains in the .357 Mag, 6 grains in the .44-40 and .45 Colt and 7 grains in the .44 Magnum with standard-weight bullets for the caliber which "fit." For those, and in smaller calibers like the .32 S&W Long and .32-20 (2.5 grains of Bulsleye in .32 S&W Long and 3.5 grains in .32-20) I go to custom-cut Accurate molds to get I want, but the results are well worth it.

My loads shoot to the fixed sights of vintage revolvers, do not lead, and are both accurate and effective on game. I see no real need for full-charge magnum loads.

[Bazoo]

I'm still trying to figure out my to to loads outpost. Thank you for sharing.

[Outpost75]

I'm still trying to figure out my to to loads outpost. Thank you for sharing.

Most important is to have correctly dimensioned bullets which "fit" the gun. Mass production standard molds cannot always provide this. For that reason I have junked the great majority of older cherry-cut, mass production molds except for a few which can be counted on the fingers of one hand which "work" in multiple guns. Those should be gold plated and I may just do that to keep them from rusting. 8-)

For the "problem children" in vintage guns having odd dimensions you must sometimes hone cylinder throats to provide a better match to barrel bore and groove diameters. DougGuy has been the Guru there. Then to have molds custom-cut to fit, call Tom at Accurate, whose outstanding cooperation and patience working with me and offering useful suggestions to provide molds to the design specs required, the two of us educating each other and the results performing hugely better than any mass market molds or "group buys" ever could. Money very well spent.

[Win94ae]

I've never really bothered to do a ladder test for pistols. I don't shoot them past 50yd and usually am at 15-25yd as I practice drills. The only work up I have done in the past is when going to max loads for a pistol. Then I will start a bit low and work up. I use a progressive press so I measure charges by volume and check the weight of one every now and then to make sure it is ok. I will clock some loads with the chronograph to make sure they are in the velocity range I want. That is also my check that I am below max for the pistol. One of the factors of my choice in powders is how well it meters from a powder measure, so fine grain or ball powder is preferred.

I hunt with my pistol. Actually, the revolver is more precise than my 44mag lever action; and if I can't get the rifle sorted out, I'll be hunting with the revolver again this year. So yeah, I need it to shoot precisely.

[sghart3578]

I always took the simple approach.

I started at 80% of max for the bullet/powder I was testing. I went up in .5 gr increments until extraction was sticky.

This was the max in MY revolver. YMMV.

I then started going down in .5 gr increments until I hit the accuracy sweet spot.

It took very little time and saved components.


Steve in N CA

[DougGuy]

I am surprised no one has mentioned this before now, unless I missed it.. When extrapolating a load from one boolit to another, and the weight is similar, what is most important is to look at the base of the boolit in the published load, how deep it is seated in the case, and figure out where the base of the boolit would be in the load you are building. Changes to this measurement mean changes in case capacity which indicates a change in load density which would definitely change pressures, even if the same powder and same charge weight were used.

If you used data for a K type boolit crimped in the crimp groove, and you loaded the same weight wadcutter flush with the case mouth, as is traditionally done with a wadcutter, the base of the wadcutter would be seated considerably deeper in the case than the K type LSWC, which could easily create an unsafe load.

As long as the base of the two boolits are fairly close to the same position in the case, nothing else would need to be compensated for and you would be good to go. This would be fine for a target load, but if the two cartridges were loaded to near max pressure, even slight differences in case capacity due to two different boolit styles being used, could create an unsafe load. The less pressure, the greater tolerance for variation, and the more forgiving any error will be. The more pressure, the opposite will be true.

[Bazoo]

I appreciate the responses.

Doug, yessir. I know that bullet depth in the case is at least equally important if not the most important factor when extrapolating data. I appreciate your reminder.

[Kenstone]

I do something different working up a revolver load that I have not read about here or anywhere else.
I mark/number the chambers of the cylinder, put up 6 targets, and shoot 6 groups with all shots from #1 chamber on the #1 target, #2 chamber on #2 target, and so on.
From a rest, at any range.

This will show any variation from chamber timing/chamber alignment/point of impact differences/etc.
The targets can be stacked for checking exact group size if needed, but something I don't normally do

This evolved from IHMSA revolver class, shooting out to 200 meters.
I did this for shooting DA revolvers and would single load the 5 shots in a string in one chamber, deemed the most accurate using the method described above.
:mrgreen:


,

[sghart3578]

I do something different working up a revolver load that I have not read about here or anywhere else.
I mark/number the chambers of the cylinder, put up 6 targets, and shoot 6 groups with all shots from #1 chamber on the #1 target, #2 chamber on #2 target, and so on.
From a rest, at any range.

This will show any variation from chamber timing/chamber alignment/point of impact differences/etc.
The targets can be stacked for checking exact group size if needed, but something I don't normally do

This evolved from IHMSA revolver class, shooting out to 200 meters.
I did this for shooting DA revolvers and would single load the 5 shots in a string in one chamber, deemed the most accurate using the method described above.
:mrgreen:


,

I had to do that with one of my model 28's. I couldn't figure out why it would group 4 shots into one hole at 15 yards then throw the other two.

I came across an article about cylinder honing so I did just what you stated. I realized that it was the same two chambers causing the stray shots.

I little work with some emery cloth on dowel in a drill and the flyers were gone.

[DougGuy]

I do something different working up a revolver load that I have not read about here or anywhere else.
I mark/number the chambers of the cylinder, put up 6 targets, and shoot 6 groups with all shots from #1 chamber on the #1 target, #2 chamber on #2 target, and so on.
From a rest, at any range.

This will show any variation from chamber timing/chamber alignment/point of impact differences/etc.
The targets can be stacked for checking exact group size if needed, but something I don't normally do

This evolved from IHMSA revolver class, shooting out to 200 meters.
I did this for shooting DA revolvers and would single load the 5 shots in a string in one chamber, deemed the most accurate using the method described above.
:mrgreen:


,

I use a Sunnen precision automotive hone to correct cylinder throats. This is a stepless tool which can be made to hone in the hundredths of a thousandth of an inch provided the operator knows what he is doing. It will hone in much finer increments than you can measure with most precision tooling. I try to get within a couple of tenths of a thou from throat to throat, and if the chambers themselves behind the throats are consistent, you won't be able to isolate separate points of impact, as groups would be too consistent.

I have often said that the single most important dimension for a cylinder is not actual throat diameter, (as you can always size to fit the throats with a die, or a soft alloy can be made to size to the throats via obturation) but how consistent they are from throat to throat. The closer they are, the less variation in pressure, the more consistent the recoil impulse shot to shot, the gun recoils the same every time in the shooter's hands, and POI is very consistent.

[Drm50]

I don’t change bullets or powder myself. When I am working up a load for pistol I’ve always went by weight of bullet (cast) and it is always close enough to get you in ball park. As far as arriving at decent group and going by 1/10 grain would depend on if pistol is capable of benefitting from that kind of precision.

[DougGuy]

I don’t change bullets or powder myself. When I am working up a load for pistol I’ve always went by weight of bullet (cast) and it is always close enough to get you in ball park. As far as arriving at decent group and going by 1/10 grain would depend on if pistol is capable of benefitting from that kind of precision.

Exactly! If the gun has uneven cylinder throats or a lot of end play or side play, this would definitely create variations in pressure equal to much more than 1/10th of a grain in the powder charge.

[JoeJames]

One other thing I certainly learned to keep an eye on even if shooting a revolver with adjustable sights - dwell time. When I was working up 44 Special loads with Unique powder and 240 grain cast swc's, my first very moderate loads were clipping the top of my target at 25 yards. And that was with my rear sight turned all the way down. I had to add bit to my load to get them to even print on the paper. Just saying you can go too low in velocity.