Herter's Shells

[richhodg66]

Are these cheap Herters shells which seem to be what most 16 gauge shooters are using on target ranges now reloadable?

I dug around and it seems the Estate brand, also fairly inexpensive and available, can be reloaded using data for Federal hulls with good results.

I'm going to start shooting shotguns more, range is open today. Going to try to take advantage of some of the Covid 19 down time to become a better wing shooter. Learning to reload will be part of that plan, but I have quite a bit of ammo already.

[firebyprolong]

They are thinner by a good margin than the old highbrass federal purple hulls. cheddite made them for cablelas but apparently during the Basspoor cabelas take over they got dropped. I haven't see them sold anywhere else. So no more 65$ flats of 16s for doves this year. But that being said I have loaded them and they seem to last 2-3 loadings for me. Ballistic products sells the same primed cheddite hulls still if you get desperate.

[skeettx]

Yes, use Cheddite data, they work just fine
Mike

[megasupermagnum]

The Herters shells can be reloaded, but I've not seen any great deals on that ammo. The Federal/Estate 1oz loads seem to be what is often the best price. The Estate hulls are the exact same as Federal hulls. They are made in the same place. Estate is owned by Federal, and the plants are across the street from each other. I prefer the Federal/Estate hulls for most of my reloads. If I were to choose a hull for purely target loads, I would choose Remington. Remington hulls are slightly shorter, which works great for the 7/8 oz and 1 ounce loads. Remington hulls also seem to last the longest, as well as being slightly thicker, work better with the smaller diameter wads and ball powders.

[richhodg66]

The shotgun range here is open on Tuesday evenings, so I went this evening and went through 50 rounds of the Estate shells (I don't wanna talk about how many clay birds I hit). I kept the hulls and will reload them eventually, I have all the stuff, I do need soem small shot if I use them on this range again.

The Estate hulls say 2 1/2" is that right? Will the Lee Load ALl I have work with shorter hulls?

[megasupermagnum]

A quick search brings up only 2 3/4" hulls. I'm not aware of any major manufacturer currently making 2 1/2" 16 gauge ammo. The only one I can think of is RST. Those Estate hulls load great on my Lee.

[rking22]

The Herters hulls load well, very much like(probably are) cheddites. If you have a pre 1936 M12 the black Remingtons will work, nothing else other than the shorter RST in the 2 9/16 chamber and ejection port. They load well also, but I have seen shorter life than federal hulls in my M37 and 870. 7/8 loads break clays great and there is some good data for it, I like 1 oz 1250 for hunting. If you are shooting a M37 you may run into extraction issues with some of the cheap hulls, like Herters. My 1957 M37 doesn’t like them at all, federalists and rem cycle just fine.
As far as how many you break, just focus on the target and good fundamentals. Did I say focus on the Target, that bead is there to plug the hole somebody drilled in the barrel, DON’T look at it!

[skeettx]

The 2 1/2 you see is dram equiv. not length

[richhodg66]

The 2 1/2 you see is dram equiv. not length

OK, might should have read a little closer, thanks.

Pre 1936 Model 12, huh. I just bought a 16 gauge Model 12 I have yet to shoot. I might oughta check the date on it.

[Hamish]

Rich,

I don't know about 16ga, but I've been doing a slew of 20's lately. Federals, Estates, Field & Stream, several others. Brass, brass washed steel, steel, high base, low base, but it's all the same tubes.

There is a good chance your Herters are actually Cheddites. Everyone seems to be making this or that for each other these days if one has a set up going for what another needs at the time.

By any chance, are they actually Purple?

[Hamish]

OK, might should have read a little closer, thanks.

Pre 1936 Model 12, huh. I just bought a 16 gauge Model 12 I have yet to shoot. I might oughta check the date on it.

GOOD FOR YOU. M12 lover here too,,,,,but I did buy a 16ga Stevens 520 today!

[richhodg66]

Is the 520 that over under imported from Turkey? Those look real nice and seem to be getting very good reviews. I might look into one of those at some point.

I've never owned a Model 12 before. I kind of wanted a pump in 16, came down to a nice Ithaca 37 in the Wichita Cabela's or this Model 12 which I made a low bid on, lower than the asking price of the Ithaca and I wasn't going to bid higher. Turned out I didn't have to. Remains to be seen if I'll like it as well as the Ithacas.

The few Herters huls I have are purple. The Estate hulls are kinda purple, not as bright as most purple hulls it seems.

[Hamish]

(LoL) Wrong 520,,,,

JMB's last design, finished up by his son after death. https://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2013/09/gun-fight-friday-winchester-model-12-vs-stevens-520/

Looks like a BAR turned into a pump shotgun. (Because it basically was)

BTW, those Herter's ARE Cheddite's.

[richhodg66]

OK, I know which one you mean now, looks like an Auto 5 only it's a pump.

Those Turkish imports Stevens is selling now look great. The local Gibsons had them in 20 and 12, nice handling guns and pretty too. If I get serious about shotgun target shooting, I might look into one of them.

[rking22]

If your M12 is not stamped “16ga 2 3/4” for chambering, but only 16ga then it is 2 9/16 chamber. Lots of them had the chamber extended, but few had the ejection port lengthened. I have a first year 16 like that. A federal load shot in my gun requires disassembly to remove the empty, really slow single shot! Black Remingtons work fine. Really the nicest M12 for small game hunting, it really is a 20 ga frame, carries like a 20 hits like a 12.

[richhodg66]

If your M12 is not stamped “16ga 2 3/4” for chambering, but only 16ga then it is 2 9/16 chamber. Lots of them had the chamber extended, but few had the ejection port lengthened. I have a first year 16 like that. A federal load shot in my gun requires disassembly to remove the empty, really slow single shot! Black Remingtons work fine. Really the nicest M12 for small game hunting, it really is a 20 ga frame, carries like a 20 hits like a 12.

If I'd known that, I'd have held out for an Ithaca. I do have anice Ithaca Deer Slayer in 16 and if it was a post 855,000 gun, I'd look for another barrel.

Guess I need to find some of that black hulled Remington ammo for this one. Thanks for the tip, that likely saved me some headaches.

[rking22]

I bought 500 primed 2 9/16 Cheddites from BPI or Grafs for mine. Load fine on my 600MEC, no experience with the Lee. They last pretty well and are reasonably priced. 1936 was when Winchester changed to 2 3/4 for 16ga M12 and changed the stamping to show that length,sorry I could have been more clear.

[rking22]

On the M37, they are out there, some very nice. I was in a local shop and asked to look at one, it was a solid rib 16 choked mod! Decided to buy it at that moment, then noticed price was 249$!!!!!
Gun looked like it had been a safe queen since 1957! I did NOT let the gun out of my mitts, did the 4473 with it under my elbow, and no I did not try to talk them down. Wonderful gun, and it shoots where I look. Just dosen’t like cheap eats, no biggie, I can feed it good hulls. Keep watch, some places don’t know a good gun when it comes in. No choke tubes, let’s get rid of it :)

[richhodg66]

Gotta leave in a minute, but I'll get that Model 12 out and have a closer look today. I've been having fun with the little Stevens 5100 for now.

The one I seem to hit the best with is a beat up old Savage 94 single shot I bought for next to nothing at a gun show a couple of years ago. I'm sure it's choked Full. One of the most graceful handling guns there is and points nicely. Almost no finish left, but it locks up tight and patterns nicely. It's pretty much my favorite shotgun for poking around with now.

[rking22]

I think the Stevens 94 was a jewel, very nice handling little single. I found one in 28ga, had been cold blued and no case colors but tight and complete. I will rust blue it when I get a chance, until then I carry it rabbit hunting! Sweet little gun, and it breaks sporting clays targets very well. I get them to throw the 2nd bird “ on ejection” :)

[Walks]

WOW !

You guys are bringing up some old Guns.

I have a "Wards Western Field" in 20ga. To me it breaks down better then the M12/M1897. The "Western Field" is a model Savage 520/620, no "middle" hump. It rides in a Leg "O" Mutton case and was My Paternal GrandFathers favorite Shotgun. He did use a M12 3" for Geese & Ducks in his later years. I have that and My Dad"s M12 20ga. And there is a M1897 16ga Mod. 26" bbl too.
These are all "Family" guns.
And I have a 12ga '97 that I bought for Cowboy Shooting in 1989, it was cut to 20", refinished and "choke tubed" before I i got it. It does make it a heck of a fine Dove gun.

Interestingly enough all these Guns plus 1/2 doz more (ex. 12ga '97) were stored at My Maternal Grandfather's house. My Dad needed the storage room in His hidden secure attic storage in 1974. The burglary in Aug '74 wiped him out with the exception of the Colt Woodsman in the bedroom under His pillow and the Colt 1903 in His desk at the office.

He sold the 16ga & 20ga loader's shortly after. Winchester West - Watson Trap & Skeet Range closed in early 1975. The land was sold to build the container facility for the Port of Los Angeles. Then the Golden Valley Trap & Skeet range Closed a couple of years later.

That sorta killed off our places to shoot shotgun.

I tried estate shells when they first came out in the early 1990's. Thought they were made off-shore. Bought a sealed case of 10 boxes of 12ga. Found a 20ga shell in 1 box. Haven't bought any since.
Only loaded Winchester AA hulls since 1975, with few exceptions. The old REM RXP's and Active hulls were pretty good. REM Blue Magic's were great. And the Rem Premier hulls.

Just found that loading the best hulls produced the best loads.

Having a paper base wad getting stuck in your bbl is no fun.

[Hamish]

Walks,

The 520 I just bought is a Western Field too. The break down design is the coolest thing about it. I'm considering making a hard case for it. I have a real soft spot for "hardware store" guns.

My model 12 was the first shotgun Dad bought. It still has streaks of white paint on it where Mom dripped on it while painting the. closet it sat in, in the '60's. I just never could bring myself to clean them off.

AA's and Remington's in 12 for me too:-D but I will load just about any hull I can get a good crimp on,,,,,,

261716


Thanks for sharing a little family history!

[rking22]

Another dumpster diver here too! Sadly the new “improved” AA are not what they used to be. My son shot lots of factory AA and I sold the hulls until everybody figured out the Rem Gun Club was a much better hull.
All the talk about the 520 now has me wondering if I “need” one, thanks guys.

[Duckiller]

For those that have a Model 12 16 ga stamped 2 9/16 don't be in a hurry to buy short shells. My father had a Model 1 stamped 2 9/16 that he bought before I was born (probably in the 30's) When 2 3/4 shell came out he had his gun measured. It was chambered for the longer shells. This wasonly one gun and may have been a fluke. I missed getting a Parker double that was marked for shorter shells that the previous owner said he always shot longer shells with no problem. I am suspecious that there are a bunmch of16 ga gun stamped with 2 9/16 have 2 3/4 chambers well before the longer shell came out.

[rking22]

With the M12 the chamber length isn’t the problem, it’s the length of the ejection port. They eject black Remington game loads just fine. With the thinner plastic hulls of today, vs the paper of the “old” days, I don’t worry about the actual chamber length. Just me, others feel differently.

[richhodg66]

I just went and checked that Model 12 I bought recently, clearly states 2 3/4" Full choke. Kind of relieved.

Dang that's a nice gun. Model 12s never really tripped my trigger much before, always seemed big and clunky compared to an Ithaca 37, this one doesn't. Might have to take this one to the range Tuesday instead of the little Stevens 5100.

[rking22]

My 16ga M12 is lighter than any of my 20 ga pump guns, except the tiny M17. The 37 is very closely modeled on the M17, to the extent Ithaca had to wait for the last pattens to expire before going to market.
I agree with you on the 12 ha M12 , too big and heavy, but the small frames are sweet. Keep your eyes open for a M17, I have been buying every one I find.