Hunting accuracy?

[Idaho45guy]

I was on another forum where some guy posted that with his new .30-30 Marlin with open sights, he couldn't get more than 75% of his shots, out of 25, on a paper plate at 50 yards shooting off-hand. He wanted to know if it was him or the gun.

I scolded him for not first bench resting the rifle to determine what it's accuracy potential was and that he was wasting ammo shooting a new rifle offhand at a paper plate if he was doing anything other than function testing it.

I told him that if he couldn't do better than 75% of his offhand shots on a paper plate at 50 yards, then he had no business taking that rifle into the woods to try and kill a deer with it.

I reasoned that a paper plate is about the same size as the vitals of a deer. If you can't get 100% of your shots in that area at 50 yards, or even 100 yards, then you are likely going to just wound an animal and cause suffering.

I grew up with the acceptable standard of a hunting rifle being 1.5 MOA at 100 yards using a rest. All of my hunting rifles will do 1 MOA or better. I come from a family of marksmen, so maybe my standards are too high.

Do you have an accuracy standard for hunting rifles? What is it?

[Hickory]

A lot of 'deer hunters' seldom do any shooting during the off season! And as a consequence are no better shots than the guy your mentioned.
I will confess that I am not a very good offhand shot unless I practice a lot, even then I need something to lean or rest my rifle on to get a good shot.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I'm in my late 60's and practice offhand shooting 40-60 shots on tin cans almost every day. Practice is essential every day. Cast boolits (non gas checked) are a perfect platform being very cheap to reload.

Without the practice, I like every other shooter would lose that accuracy edge.

[Muddydogs]

If a scoped rifle isn't shooting under 1/2 inch at 100 yards or iron sight rifle shooting the same at 50 yards from a good rest I keep messing with it until it is. Ya my iron sight rifle standard is a little low but I just can't see the sights and target well enough anymore at 100 yards to get any meaningful information from the shots. I figure that if the rifle is dead nuts on then there will be less error when shooting offhand which most all of my hunting shots are.

At the range I frequent there is a 100 yard steel plate and I don't care if i'm shooting my little 380 pistol or the 375 H&H before I leave the range or run out of ammo I shoot the 100 yard steel offhand a few times. Even with iron sights I can ring the steel more often then not, with the 380 i'm about 50/50.

Idaho45guy
What part of the ID/WA border are you from? I grew up in Palouse.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I like accurate rifles, but 2-3" at 100 yards will get the job done, on deer, at woods ranges. As BA Wallace mentioned, off handed shooting is a perishable skill that requires practice to maintain. I routinely practice on a 8" steel plate (smaller than a paper plate) at 100 yards. Wish I could connect on every shot, but I can't. I probably wouldn't take an offhand shot at a deer over 50 yards or so.

[richhodg66]

"I probably wouldn't take an offhand shot at a deer over 50 yards or so."

If you learn nothing else from off hand practice it's that you shouldn't do it of you don't have to.

A couple of years ago, I bought a neat little sporter in 7x57 and fell in love with it. Cast 60 pounds of soup can bullets for it, quickly developed a cheap load that would hold about 2" groups at 100 yards and then gave up the bench. I shoot this rifle at 6" black paper plates at 100 yards off my front porch and shot it a LOT that first year. I do my hunting from tree stands or ground blinds and shots are woods ranges at unalarmed deer. Most of my practice was from a seated position using my knee as a rest, just like I would from a tree stand and that paper plate is dead every single time that way. I dod practice a good bit of offhand at the same range and targets and could hit that plate probably 75% of the time offhand, might could do better with more practice and or a better suited rifle, but I can't see me shooting offhand that far at a deer the way I hunt.

Find a rest. It's part of the field skills that go into hunting.

[RU shooter]

Way to many once or twice a year hunters will fire 3-5 shots off a bench and call it good and never once shot or practice any kind of unsupported shooting , I don't know about anyone else but I don't hunt on a target range . I mostly hunt from a stand so shots are gonna be from the seated or standing position I practice both if I'm lucky I'll be able to brace the rifle off the side of a tree on a real shot but that's a bonus and don't count on it . As for accuracy standards the rifle and load will do 2 moa at 100 . My abilities with my 2.5x scope and a light rifle 4-5" or better at 100 unsupported most all my kills have been inside of 100 yds and great majority 50 or less

[sharps4590]

Well, if the guy doesn't know what the rifle is capable of solidly benched, there's no way he can find out offhand. As others have mentioned, evidently he isn't a very goo offhand shot either.

Back before I had a little bout with cancer and chemo I tried to shoot one of my Schuetzen rifles at least 5 rounds, every day, with complete concentration. I didn't miss many days. As BA Wallace said, as long as I kept at it my offhand skills improved and stayed with me. That was 2 years ago and I'm fine now but, those 5 shots a day haven't re-materialized....and my offhand shooting shows it.

[sghart3578]

I suspect most "hunters" are just crappy shots.

When I was drawing tags and hunting every year I would practice, practice, practice. I knew my model 70 was an MOA rifle and I wanted my skills to match my equipment. The end results were all one shot kills and no lost game.

I don't hunt any more but I still pursue accuracy on paper with most of my rifles. It is more fun for me to be able to pick and target at random and call my shoot, be it a stray clay pigeon or a beer can.

I bring this up because lately I have been watching a lot of Youtube videos (ain't lockdown grand?) Specifically rifle reviews on Marlin 336's and 1894's.

I was shocked when these clowns were shooting 6" groups at 50 yards and calling it good. No further practice, no interest in seeing where your load hits at 100 yards, no attempt to improve.

I think I will stop watching videos.


Steve in N CA

P.S. I don't consider myself a good shot, especially with handguns. That is why I try to shoot regularly, to improve my skills.

[redriverhunter]

I took a friend hunting with me, he bragged about what a great shot he is. well we are sitting in an off the ground deer blind about 4 foot in the air the shot is about 175 yard, rifle .270 3x9 scope. deer standing broad side we are sitting with the rifle resting. missed twice. next weekend we go to the range at a hundred yard at the bench he was getting a 6 inch group. I am on average an inch and half to 2 inch group from the bench. I have to be honest with myself about my ability to shoot.

[Norske]

I've used a rest for at least 30 years. It's been a long time since I shot on college rifle and pistol teams. Over half of the deer I've shot were shot with the least accurate centerfire rifle I own, because it was the lightest weight rifle I owned so if carrying was part of the hunt, it was the rifle I used. It is a 1 1/2" rifle off a rest, and it killed 43 deer with 43 shots. Deer hunting doesn't need prairie dog or competition accuracy.

[truckjohn]

Shooting offhand is not the same as shooting off the bench. Sure - it's good to see what a rifle will do on front and rear bags - but that's not the same...

I do as little offhand shooting as possible when hunting because I know the truth... I hunt mostly out of blinds and stands - so I can usually find a decent rest. That and our shots here are under 50 yards due to the thick woods...

The other side is that I know a LOT of hunters who are terrible on paper yet lay down tons of game.... And vice versa with paper target shooters who make very poor field shots... The two skills don't perfectly overlap...

That said - I am not a good offhand shooter but I like to do my practice with my 22, not my 30-30...

[Teddy (punchie)]

We are the 2-3 inch at a hundred or better.

I have seen guys with lead sled and best out of 5 guns was all over the place. I don't think they had a 5 inch group.

I tell people its not how much you shoot, any one can make noise. How well and how much do you shoulder that gun? Pick out a, anything and close your eyes is it in the line of sight? If not keep it up until it is. I have been know to take out the bolt (or open the action) and walk around picking out items, follow birds, point at our cows at 200 yds etc. See how steady I can hold.

I'm not sure I can still shoot quarts or even silver dollars at 100 yards any more. But still can hit a running deer. I think its easier for me to shoot a moving deer then one standing. That said I sure can miss ducks, darn did I say darn ducks in the wind 20-25 MPH at 30-40 yards are a ??? out of 4 guys how can a couple of ducks get away decoying ????? We all have fun. But sure do ?? how. Now on the water with just that little head at 30 yards or more there hard as ^^ll to kill.

[white eagle]

I strive for the best out of my rifles that said I do not use open sights on any of them
I use telescopic sights on all my rifles and my goal is to get the smallest 3-5 shot
group with the bullet,powder,case and primer I have chosen for that rifle
I never buy or shoot anyone elses' ammo

[rking22]

Checking zero, trajectory, and mechanical accuracy really needs to be done from a solid rest. After that offhand practice at varying distances is good. Let’s the hunter know what they are realistically able to hit, if they are honest with themselves. There have been several times during my life that I was a pretty good offhand shot, in competition. Offhand is a skill that degraded quickly when not used, air rifles are great for keeping in tune. Spring guns especially, due to being a bit unforgiving of technique. I am of the school tat I want good accuracy, but be realistic. I hunt with vintage rifles, open sights mostly and almost always cast bullets. Only 2 of my last 15 to 20 deer have been over 100 yards, a 222 rem and 250 savage took those, both scopes and jacked. All the rest have been open sights inside 75 yards and maybe a third offhand shots. I always try to set up to have a rest, but I like knowing what I am capable off offhand. If the shot is iffy, I don’t take it, that’s why they call it hunting.
Scoped jacketed bolt guns are expected to put hunting loads into 1.5 inches at 100 yards, from improvised rest, 5 in a row. Cast open sighted guns need to do that at 50, with hunting loads. My limit for offhand varies by the shoot ability of the gun, but basically 50 yards. I want 5 in a row in 5 inches. If a gun feels awkward to me I get rid of it, benchrest groups mean little when hunting. Unless you hunt from a benchrest, and I know a few people who do!

[brewer12345]

Realistically, a 2 or 3 inch group at 100 yards will do it without a fuss for most deer hunting. I struggle with vision and always have, so I really need a scope for shots beyond 75 yards. If I expect a hunt to be a long distance shot (elk), I really want a 1 to 1.5 MOA rifle so that my groups aren't ridiculously big at 250 yards.

I am not allowed to use a scope on a muzzleloader for hunting, so my shots are generally limited to 75 yards. Maybe a broadside deer completely still while I have a good rest I would try a 100 yard shot, but generally I expect to be closer when I take those shots. I think within 100 yards I have a slightly greater margin of error with a muzzleloader simply because I am generally using a projectile with at least a 50 caliber diameter. I ended up having to take an unsupported shot at a doe at 50 yards last year and the 54 round ball flattened her even with a slightly marginal hit (nicked a lung, blew the liver and a kidney, and made large entry and exit holes). I will probably use a 58 round ball this year, which means any hit anywhere near the vials or shoulder will do it.

[Win94ae]

I told him that if he couldn't do better than 75% of his offhand shots on a paper plate at 50 yards, then he had no business taking that rifle into the woods to try and kill a deer with it.

I've been hunting for 45 years, I think I have shot at probably 3 deer offhand. All the rest were at other field positions.

A hunter needs to know how accurate he is in specific field positions, sitting, kneeling, off a tree, off a fence, and so on; at specific distances.

Maybe instead of being dictatorial to him, you could have directed him to a video teaching field shooting positions?


Do you have an accuracy standard for hunting rifles? What is it?
Yes, I do have an accuracy standard for myself, and that guy, nor you, nor anyone else, are not subject to that standard.

[DougGuy]

I use the tennis ball rule. I want to know beyond question that the boolit is going to strike within a tennis ball sized circle of point of aim. Regardless of gun, caliber, or distance.

If I am in the woods where it is super thick, and I am sitting in a treestand above the brush, likely I am intent on taking game with the handgun, so how far can I shoot realistically and still maintain the tennis ball rule? 25-30 yards maybe? 50 if I am real steady and the sights are not jumping?

With a scoped slug gun that will cloverleaf a playing card at 100yds, knowing the wallyworld slug goes subsonic around 110yds, I'd say 125 at the most.

In reality, in woods like that, deer will be right under my stand, shots will be close enough I could smack them with a brick and never fire a shot, handgun kills are easy and certain. And I hunt thick woods. You will see more deer in thick woods than open spaces, you will take more deer in thick woods than hunting open areas.

My 1970s Ruger M77 has had a lot of work done to it, it will put 3 into a guitar pick at 200yds, I can hit that tennis ball out to 350 but wouldn't shoot over 250 on game.

[gumbo333]

Muddydogs you must have some secrets learned to get your hunting rifles shooting a half inch. I've messed with many rifles over my lifetime, 40 years ago trying to get some good name brand rifles to shoot into 1 1/2 inch groups was nigh on impossible ( which is still plenty good for hunting). Even the model 70 many times was doing good to get under 2 inches. But today things have really changed. Bullets/ boolits are better, many more powder choices, bought ammo is better plus the rifles, even the low dollar rifles shoot lights out. I know 1/2 inch groups are confidence builders but geez!

[444ttd]

back in the day, i would shoot off hand a target(4"x4"x1" steel target) at 50, 100, 150 and 200 yards. i was using j-words bullets and the powder of choice. i got good at it, but i was shooting 3 or 4 days a week. every rifle of mine would go at least 1" at 100 yards(5 shots/bench), most of them would group 1/2" and under. then came a stroke and it left me with right arm/leg only 20% good and my speech not much better. the first year, i had a ruger #1 in 270 with a 130gr nosler bt and (i think) imr4350 that would go under 1/2" at 100 yards(bench), i hope. i shot it on the bench and a 3 1/2"+ at 100 yards. i was flinching at every shot. over the spring/summer/fall i was training myself not to flinch. my group went from 3 1/2" to 1 1/4" at 100 yards. not great, but good. i had a 3 legged bog pod that used. i would shoot at the target at 50, 100 and 150 yards until i got 5 out 5 bullets on each. 200 yards was about 3 or 4 bullets out of 5. that was unacceptable to me, so i choose 150 yards and less at the deer.

the next year, i was introduced to cast bullets. and that, my friends, was and is best buddy ever!!!!! i admit, i was a little slow to get use to them. but now, j-word bullets are NOT shot out of any my rifles(except the 20 vartarg with 34gr midway/midsouth hp). "more speed" and "better accuracy" have been left in dust a long time ago. unique, hs-6, 2400 and 4895 are it for me. slow to medium speed and anything under 3" at 100 yards(3-5 shots/bench) is good enuff fer me.

9.3x57 280gr fn gc 100 yards(bench)
https://i.imgur.com/iCe3ynv.jpg

444 marlin 250gr penta hp 50 yards(bench)
https://i.imgur.com/PvRgRxa.jpg

270win 140gr hornady sst 100 yards(bench/ 2nd year after my stroke)
https://i.imgur.com/VGeO5ZP.jpg

35/30 200gr fn gc 100 yards(bench/sighting it in)
https://i.imgur.com/nBFtFB6.jpg

[djohns28]

I wont accept a 1.5" group from a scoped rifle. Flat wont do it. I can hold a 3" 100 yard group with my iron sight Marlin 44 magnum, but rested and scoped it will shoot an inch or better. Its more accurate than I am. I don't take it anywhere that I may need to make more than a 100 yard shot simply because of trajectory. I cant tell 100 yards from 120 yards and there is 3 inches of drop between them. Misjudging distance and my inability to see could mean I'm off 6" or more with that rifle. I don't trust myself with it. I can hold a 3" group at 500 yards with my 243. I run a 200 yard zero with it. It's 1.5" high at 100 and 1.5" low at 265 yards. Its literally point and click. I recently busted a coyote at 380 yards across a hay field with that rifle. I shoot 22LR silhouette matches which are off hand with an open sight Henry and with a scoped Ruger American Rimfire Target rifle. I have shot 37 out of 40 with it off hand. I can hold a 1" group at 50 yards with the Henry off hand. Bench rested the Ruger holds 3/8 or better at 50.

I guess the point is, I know what i can and can't do despite what the rifle will do. I have confidence in the rifles that I use, and I use them a lot. Most hunters don't put the time in to practice the little things like breathing and trigger discipline that can and will ultimately lead to misses and bad shots, or even bad shot placement. Old habits surface under stress and we revert to our muscle memory and our training. The first pig I shot out of a deer stand I made a perfect shot behind the shoulder. The problem was that on a pig, that's a gut shot. My range has a big steel pig set up at 100 yards and started practicing with my 22 aiming for the ear to retrain myself to shoot for the ear. My wife and I both shoot a 243. I have preached and preached for her to shoot deer in the neck so they fall right there. We were in the stand together after she shot a buck and another one came trotting out like he owned the place. took us completely off guard. I drew down on him real fast and instinctively put the cross hairs behind the shoulder and squeezed the trigger. Made a perfect shot, but the deer ran. I made my wife time 45 minutes and not let me out of the stand to make sure it had sufficient time to lay down so I wouldn't jump it. in my mind I can still see the deer in the scope and I knew i made a good shot at the time but it ate me alive. i was so worried that i made a bad shot. It happened so fast that if I didn't have time to think about the shot, I just made the shot. Things like that happen in the woods and you don't always have the perfect set up. But, knowing my rifle and knowing the load got me that deer. There is no substitute for trigger time and if i would have had my Marlin 44 I likely would have missed.

[Tripplebeards]

Just about every one of my hunting rifle loads shoot less then half MOA with jacked ammo off the bench at 100 yards before I enter the woods with them. The reason being is when I flinch, wiggle, ect. I’m not going to miss my “mark” by much. Starting out with a 3” plus group holding perfectly steady off a rest at 100 yards IMO is going to end up a 6 MOA grouping or even larger free handing at the same distance.

I’m learning that MOA for cast is pushing the envelope at 100 yards. I have a Ruger 77/44 that will do it pretty regular with two different loads. The other two rifles I’ve tested with cast best groups are both 1.1” to 1.25” with a couple of loads. My goal is to still find a MOA load with cast at 100 yards. That way when I know I missed it was my fault and not my load or the rifle.

Here’s my first try with cast yesterday at 100 yards with a marlin 336 chambered in 35 Remington. I would hunt with both loads as they are close enough to MOA that I’m sure I’d hit my mark with a steady aim in the deer woods. I’m sure I’ll still try a couple more powders to see if I can do better. I probably shot around 50 boolits or more through it yesterday. Most that cant shoot minute of pie plate probably aren’t as active as most of us are with our hobby and only shoot a few rounds once every couple years and never see a deer to miss anyways.

https://i.imgur.com/uv6NGaO.jpg

I’m always trying t found a load that a three shot group will all go in the same hole looking like a cloverleaf. I do this with every firearm and pistol I own. It’s not needed in the deer woods but it sure helps with learning how to shoot more a accurate and consistent imo.

[Winger Ed.]

A lot of 'deer hunters' seldom do any shooting during the off season! And as a consequence are no better shots than the guy your mentioned..

^^This.^^

These are the guys that have had the same a half a box of ammo in the closet of 10 years,
but if they can't put one shot hole through another--- the rifle is bad, or it needs more gadgets.

When I run into them, I tell them shooting is just like riding a motorcycle or flying an airplane.
The more you do it, the better you'll get.

[Tripplebeards]

...and they are normally the ones that also post that their rifle barrel is defective because it’s shooting 12 inch plus groups at 100 yards... When they’re loosely free handing it and usually with an optic that’s not sighted in. I learned not to believe everything I read along time ago.

[bmortell]

deer probably a 4inch square at a distance covering most shots you could get with a crude front rest and no back rest, assuming that's how your hunting spot is. once your down under 2 inches id rather make boolits more effective than more accurate unless im hunting squirrels or something tiny. if people can hunt deer with arrows you don't need a 1 inch group you just want it.

feel like hunting large game theres a point of diminishing returns on accuracy where as well call effectiveness probably isn't close to a soft cap yet. for example im not gonna slow down a 2k fps 30-06 cast load to 1600 just because I can get a 1 inch group instead of a 1.5" I think that's counter productive. where as I would give up some effectiveness to go from 4" to 2.5" for example

[megasupermagnum]

I take heart and lung shots, and my maximum range is that which I can consistently place shots inside of 4" on the shooting range. This gives me plenty of leeway, as field conditions make things a lot tougher than the range. I do not have an accuracy standard for scoped hunting rifles, as I do not hunt with rifles. I would ideally like to see under 3" at 200 yards, under 2" would make me even happier. I don't see the point of taking a scoped rifle without having 300 yard capability, which I'm presuming is something in the range of 7mm-08, 30-06, or similar. A scoped 44 magnum carbine would be a different matter, I would feel just fine with that doing 2" at 100 yards. Most of my hunting is with a shotgun. I am just fine if my shotgun with slugs is only capable of 60 yards, same with handguns. It has been many years since I've had the opportunity for a 50+ yard shot.

[rtyler8140]

I'll be honest, I was the guy that would shoot my rifle/muzzleloader a few times before season started to make sure they were still sighted in. Fortunately, I started bow hunting only a year after I started rifle hunting. Having a bow allowed me to practice shooting as much as I wanted, unlike with a rifle. While I would say that they are very different beasts, shooting a bow taught me to learn and stay within my limits. When shooting my hunting rifle/muzzleloader, I always practice shooting in the same position I would when hunting. I do not practice off hand shots, and consequently will not take one. To me there is just as much discipline in knowing when to shoot as there is in how to shoot. For what its worth, I use a bench to sight in my rifles to sub 1.5" @ 50 yards. Where I hunt 90% of my shot opportunities are sub 50 yards, the other 10% I don't even consider pulling the trigger. Now that I have started casting and reloading, I have and will be doing a lot more shooting. Maybe the other 10% will be in my comfort zone this year.

[richhodg66]

I'll be honest, I was the guy that would shoot my rifle/muzzleloader a few times before season started to make sure they were still sighted in. Fortunately, I started bow hunting only a year after I started rifle hunting. Having a bow allowed me to practice shooting as much as I wanted, unlike with a rifle. While I would say that they are very different beasts, shooting a bow taught me to learn and stay within my limits. When shooting my hunting rifle/muzzleloader, I always practice shooting in the same position I would when hunting. I do not practice off hand shots, and consequently will not take one. To me there is just as much discipline in knowing when to shoot as there is in how to shoot. For what its worth, I use a bench to sight in my rifles to sub 1.5" @ 50 yards. Where I hunt 90% of my shot opportunities are sub 50 yards, the other 10% I don't even consider pulling the trigger. Now that I have started casting and reloading, I have and will be doing a lot more shooting. Maybe the other 10% will be in my comfort zone this year.

If more guys subscribed to this, then this thread would be a moot point. I learned most of my deer hunting skills bowhunting as well, so I tend to think of hunting as scouting, planning an ambush, being there when the deer shows up and killing it at close range before it has any idea it's in danger. Be a hunter, not a shooter. Always bothers me when I hear of guys who shoot at 400 yards, or who take head shots. Leave the trick shooting for paper targets and respect the game.

[Idaho45guy]

Always bothers me when I hear of guys who shoot at 400 yards, or who take head shots. Leave the trick shooting for paper targets and respect the game.

My brother shot this whitetail at 616 yards last season. He's addicted to the long-range stuff. His rifle is a Christiansen Arms Ridgeline in 6.5 PRC.

261740

This is his practice group at 600 yards; just under 4"...

261741

I don't like it or condone it. My furthest shot on an animal was about 300 yards on an antelope. My last whitetail was at 99 yards. Of course, I was using a $400 Ruger M77 with an awful trigger compared to him using a $2000 rifle with a carbon fiber barrel.

Still, hard to accurately gauge wind in the woods, and anything can happen at that distance.

[Tripplebeards]

I shot a Pronghorn once at a hair over a 1000 yards. Took one shot to miss and gauge the distance. The second shot landed perfectly behind the front shoulder. Probably luck. It was a perfectly placed broadside double lung shot. I Used a 300 Rum with 125 grain ballistic tips loaded at 3950 FPS. I practiced out to 500 yards before I went with smaller then fist sized groups. It’s the only animal I felt I never hunted. This was a little over 20 years ago. I’ve only taken One or two big game animal over a 100 yards since. It was last year with my pops 35 remington 7600 at about a 130 yards and the year before was about the same distance. Otherwise my average shot is about 25/40 yards out of my tree stand. If I had it to do over again I would have stalked that pronghorn so I felt like I actually hunted and earned it.


It was my first and only hunting trip to hunt Pronghorn in Wyoming and I had shot about enough practice rounds through my RUM over the summer to burn out the barrel getting ready for it. My gun was shooting smaller groups than the 600 yard target above. There just was no challenge in shooting an animal that far imo other than hitting my mark. At that distance the animal has no idea what’s going on and just either stands there or trots 20 yards and stands again until you finally land your shot. My rangefinder wouldn’t even read to the distance I shot it at the time. I had to keep scanning my rangefinder from a various rocks on the ground to the next one till I was close enough that I could scan the dead pronghorn while walking up to it.

[Larry Gibson]

Again, the topic of this thread brings out the difference between accuracy compared to precision and the difference between shooting game and hunting game. IMO whether or not the game is "hunted" or just "shot" makes a big difference and greatly influences the "hunting accuracy" needed.

In many places and many styles of "hunting", such as shooting from a stand/blind or when seeking long range shots the precision of the rifle/load (group size) along with your ability to hit the kill zone of the game animal dictate the "hunting accuracy" required. For me, using Texas deer "hunting" as an example, sitting in a stand/blind with the deer coming to a feeder is shooting not hunting. Shooting driven game is not hunting but shooting. A "hunter" who can shoot accurately and has a zeroed weapon capable of 3 - 4 moa precision can kill deer all day long.

Spotting a game animal at long distance and not stalking closer is still shooting, not hunting. The precision of the rifle/load comes into play. Idaho45guy's last post is an example of just such. However, a rifle/load capable of sub moa is usually best but a 1 - 1.5 moa capable rifle/load will still hit the kill zone of deer at a long distance if the shooter is capable. Riding out in a vehicle and setting up to cover a field or clear cut is not hunting but shooting most often. Still there can be a fine line between just shooting and not hunting such as how you got to the place to make the shot may still make this "hunting".....such as packing in (foot or by animal), hunting in high mountains or a spot and long stalk.

"Hunting" is perceived by many as stalking as close to the game as possible as in the bow or handgun hunting examples often given. Perhaps, in hunting's purist form this may be closest. As such again, if the "hunter" can shoot [not just pull a trigger but utilize marksmanship fundamentals with appropriate weaponscraft to hit an intended target], then any firearm capable of 3 - 4 moa the "hunter" can kill deer all day long.

If we remember that 95+ % of all deer are killed under 200 yards and of that 80% are killed on the short side of 100 yards then we see a rifle capable of extreme precision is not needed for "hunting accuracy". The reality is.... it depends on how well the "hunter" can shoot [place the shot into the vital area of the deer at the maximum range the "hunter" will shoot] that dictates level of "accuracy" [precision] of the rifle needed.

[MT Gianni]

There is the theory that practice makes perfect, it doesn't. Perfect practice makes perfect. That happens when you know what to correct from your mistakes. How many of you in these housebound times, take an EMPTY gun and follow the wall seams across and down the wall? How many do it with a handgun as well? If yo do not ingrain muscle memory in to your habits you cannot expect them to be there. How many hold a gun, empty again on a target across the room and see how long they can hold it there? We will all wobble but can you wobble in a concentric circle and only pull on the trigger as you approach?
At 65 I can say of the last 10 big game animals I shot three were offhand. None of those was further than 175 yards. In my 30's and 40's almost all of my shooting was offhand. Different areas, different terrain all played a part. In those days I could not remember ever shooting anything from a stand, it was all scout and sneak in National Forest or BLM.
Point is if you want to get better at shooting off a bench shoot off a bench. If you want to improve offhand it only happens with practicing it.

[bmortell]

Problem is the shooters ability and practice vs how they do in the actual situation they see a deer and all this is very blurry and unquantifiable. Other than very broad sayings like practice is good theres no good way to talk about a persons accuracy while actually hunting. So i figured the only way to talk about it with any scientific usefullness is to make it more about the guns end and assume people arent taking bad shots

[megasupermagnum]

Problem is the shooters ability and practice vs how they do in the actual situation they see a deer and all this is very blurry and unquantifiable. Other than very broad sayings like practice is good theres no good way to talk about a persons accuracy while actually hunting. So i figured the only way to talk about it with any scientific usefullness is to make it more about the guns end and assume people arent taking bad shots


There isn't really much more you can do. Out here is shotgun zone, and the usual bar talk involves "If only we could use rifles". You could give the worlds most accurate rifle to some of these people, and a milk jug at 100 yards would be reasonably safe. Yet every year these same people manage to kill deer with minimal problems. Whitetail are likely the easiest animals we have to hunt in most of the USA. I don't know why people make it such a big deal.

How about sheep or goats? Now that would be an interesting discussion of wary animals, long shots, and high shot angles.

[Idaho45guy]

Whitetail are likely the easiest animals we have to hunt in most of the USA. I don't know why people make it such a big deal.

How about sheep or goats? Now that would be an interesting discussion of wary animals, long shots, and high shot angles.

You obviously have never hunted in the West.

I've hunted in both Iowa and Idaho. It is vastly different. It is also vastly different in different parts of Idaho than others. It's not like the Midwest where it's basically the same terrain and ecosystem for hundreds of miles and deer are mostly concentrated in small areas and are plentiful. The biggest challenge in Iowa to deer hunting was "knowing someone" and getting permission to hunt on their land. Once I got permission, did a day of scouting and figuring out where the deer were and what their habits were, it was easy to find a spot to sit and wait for them to come out.

Out here, it's a bit more challenging. Instead of a couple of hundred acres of habitat to concentrate on, you have a couple of million. Now, there are parts of Idaho that are farmland, and you can set up near the edge of a field or near a water source and wait for the deer to come in. There are also areas where you have to hike miles in rugged terrain to get to where the deer are.

This is where I deer hunted last Fall. There is no parking the truck and walking 100 yards to your stand...

261778

Here is a list of the states with the least amount of deer per square mile. Note they are all west of the Mississippi...

https://www.realtree.com/brow-tines-and-backstrap/10-states-with-the-worst-deer-populations

Iowa has 6.4 deer per square mile. Minnesota has 9.4.

Idaho has 2.4.

So, deer hunting is quite a bit more challenging out here than it is in your area. FYI. Quite a few hunters from the Midwest come out here and fail miserably trying to hunt "easy" whitetail or elk. They really have no idea what it's like out here.

[Idaho45guy]

Sorry if my previous post sounded snarky. I just have hunted in both types of areas and am aware of the stark contrasts.

[robg]

have to bench your rifle to check it .once you get neat groups you know any poor shooting is the nut behind the butt.pointless shooting offhand before you check the hardware.

[GhostHawk]

I grew up in a shotgun + slug only hunting zone.

I pretty quickly learned that if I could not put 5 shots into a paper plate at 50 yards and cover them with a standard coffee cup they were not going hunting with me. I used a lot of Federal slugs, still have some.

The 2 single biggest things that impacted my success were.

A Get out of sight, get hunkered down below a weed or bush so only your eyes and hat show.

B If they are coming my way, let them come. Closer is better.

There is a LOT of air around a moving deer. they "bounce" and if you don't time the bounce and the lead right you miss.
I never lost a deer that I shot right, ie up close and hidden.

I am no expert, and I have not killed that many, but more than I could count on one hand. My wall boasts a nice mount of a big 10 pt buck that was less than 2 feet from me when I pulled the trigger. He was jumping over the deadfall and bush I was hiding behind. He did not go far. I knew that buck from the time he was just a little forkhorn. I bow hunted his home range. We always saw each other up close during shotgun season. Until the year he did not see me at all.

Shoot enough before the season to have confidence in your gun and your load.
Wait for the best shot you can get.
And then don't be in a hurry to follow it up. Give it 15 minutes to lay down, stiffen up, and bleed out. Hardest 15 min of your life but its worth it.

[PNW_Steve]

Muddydogs you must have some secrets learned to get your hunting rifles shooting a half inch. I've messed with many rifles over my lifetime, 40 years ago trying to get some good name brand rifles to shoot into 1 1/2 inch groups was nigh on impossible ( which is still plenty good for hunting). Even the model 70 many times was doing good to get under 2 inches. But today things have really changed. Bullets/ boolits are better, many more powder choices, bought ammo is better plus the rifles, even the low dollar rifles shoot lights out. I know 1/2 inch groups are confidence builders but geez!

Under my father's instruction, I was shooting SUB-MOA groups from the bench before I got to hunt. All of our hunting rifles have been SUB-MOA shooters. We both have bought a few that we couldn't coax adequate performance from. We didn't keep or hunt them.

Best group out of my model 70 - 9/16" - 5 shots. @ 200. yards. To be fair, I did bed the action, free float the barrel and reworked the trigger.

With a little attention you can get respectable groups out of our typical hunting rifles.

[white eagle]

hunt, shoot, what ever
if you know what your bullet, arrow, stone, or spear is going
before you step out the door the better you are going to be prepared
for your trip to what ever you want to call it

[megasupermagnum]

Sorry if my previous post sounded snarky. I just have hunted in both types of areas and am aware of the stark contrasts.

I've only hunted as far west as eastern Wyoming. Never hunted the rocky mountains. To be honest, I had no idea any real population of whitetail extended west of the Dakota's. Still, just because an animal is rare, doesn't make it difficult. Once you find them, they are still whitetail's. Find the track they follow, set up on it, and boom. It's not like mule deer that wander around aimlessly. We have elk hunting here, and not surprisingly it is very tough. It's 2 or 3 scattered populations though, not what I would consider a huntable group. The DNR gives out 5 or so once in a lifetime tags.

Look at some of the other animals you have. mule deer, elk, black bear, cougar, turkey. A white tailed deer is easy peasy compared to those. My great grandpa used to call them tasty slough rats.

[fcvan]

My first rifle was a Marlin 1894C in 41 Mag, all loads were cast. I shot it offhand a lot and my accuracy standard is 'minute of soda can' at 100 yards. Next rifle was a 22LR and later a Mini 14. The Mini was my duty rifle at work and the course of fire was kneeling, standing, and barricade, from 50 to 100 yards. Along the way I have built some AR 15s, in .223/5.56, 300 BO, and 9MM.

I always wanted a bolt gun in .308 and finally picked up a Mossberg Scout rifle. Along the way I picked up an AR10 and Springfield M1A, all shooting cast. Last year, a buddy and I went to the range to test his lead free reloads and I took the scout rifle. I tried to print some paper and failed miserably. I mounted a long eye relief 4X fixed scope and just couldn't paper to save my hide.

I decided to shoot at a rock on the berm so I could see the dust fly. Time after time I nailed the rock, eventually turning it to gravel. I tried the paper again, no dice, so I shot another rock to gravel. Next range day I am printing a picture of a rock with target rings. I think the Mossberg is afraid of paper. The AR10 and M1A loves my reloads (150gr Spitzer, Gas checked and PCd, 2250 fps) but the Mossberg is stubborn. Need more range time and lots of cans to shoot.