Help with Lee 41 Mag Dies

[nawagner]

I am having a little problem loading my 41 Mag.

I am using Lee dies, no FCD.

After priming, case mouth expanding, loading powder and seating the bullet, yes I seat and crimp in separate steps, I go to seat the bullet and the die crimp section is shaving the bullet and pushing it too far into the case. This is before the case ever hits the dies portion that apply's the crimp.

I am using SNS 41 Mag SWC sized to 0.411" which seems pretty standard for sizing.

It also takes a little pressure to get the case into the die to begin with.

I am using the same process I use for every one of my other calibers with no issues, including my 45 Colt where I run 0.454 sized bullets.

Is my die out of spec?

Am I missing something special about the 41 Mag?

I am well aware of the opinion of some people that Lee is crap and no one should ever use it so please do not reply with "Lee dies are crap, don't use them."

[onelight]

To much flare can make it difficult for the case to enter the die.
What die are you using for the fourth station to crimp?

[JimB..]

You said “ After priming, case mouth expanding, loading powder and seating the bullet, yes I seat and crimp in separate steps, I go to seat the bullet and the die crimp section is shaving the bullet and pushing it too far into the case. This is before the case ever hits the dies portion that apply's the crimp.”

So is the shaving happening during seating, or is all good through seating and then your crimp die is reseating it way low? Is the die you’re using to crimp a seating & crimping die? If so remove the seating stem entirely.

As above, no insult intended, its just a problem that first requires going back to setting up the dies to make sure it’s not something simple.

[Texas by God]

Run a sized empty case only into the die and see if binds. Make sure the groove in the shell holder is clean. Lee pistol dies are actually my first pick. I love the PTE flaring die.

[nawagner]

Onelight, I am using the seating and crimping die to do both, just raise the seating way up when crimping.

JimB, no insult taken, I am/was stumped on this one and all help is appreciated and your mention of removing he seating stem entirely got me thinking maybe I didn't take it up far enough even though I thought I did.

Texas, it does not bind.

The combination of all your questions made me think about it. I checked an empty case, some slight pressure going in but makes sense to eliminate flare.

So I decided to load another and measure at each step. I also reduced the flare slightly. That helped with the initial resistance. After seating I took a measurement. I then pulled the seating stem out completely to rule that out as suggested. I adjusted the die so the crimp just touched the bullet. COAL remained the same. I moved the die down and measured repeatedly until just touching the case mouth. The COAL did not change. I then adjusted for about a quarter turn of the die crimp. The COAL was shorter.

So the die is not shaving the bullet enough to push it in, it is during the crimp step. Looking at the bullet it is angled such that when I crimp, the angle of the crimp slightly pushes the bullet in further. They are roughly the same angle. So unless I put very little crimp I'm sort of stuck at the length the bullet seats to. Unless someone else has ideas or does not agree with my conclusion.

[onelight]

What expanding die are you using could it be oversized ? And does the bullet have a crimp groove
One more question are you full length resizing?

[nawagner]

Using the Lee expanding die that came with the 3 dies set. New Starline brass so I did not resize. Measured and all are within a couple thousandths. Bullet does have a crimp groove, which is what I think is causing the issue. I want to size at 1.585" and that is right at the crimp groove. So when I crimp it pushes against the bullet crimp grove which then in turns shoves the bullet in slightly to 1.575" because of the angle of the crimp groove and location of the case mouth. Now this might not be much of an issue, I just like to follow book loads since I've not been at this for a hundred years!

[JimB..]

You’re description of things is unclear, we’ve all been there, just think about the terms you’re using. You’re talking about a die shaving the bullet, is that accurate or is the die pressing the bullet into the brass and the brass is shaving the bullet? You mentioned that the bullet is at an angle, do you mean that after seating it is not sitting straight in the case? If so, that’s a real problem.

You do need to full length size the new brass, it may be over sized and the much reduced neck tension is allowing the bullet to push into the case from very slight pressure. Always full length size new brass.

You said that with the seating stem removed you adjusted the die down until it “just touched the bullet.” Unless something is different about the Lee dies than any other die, it should not be touching the bullet, ever. Please try the following.

With 2 new pieces of brass.
Full length size.
Expand case mouth.
In one piece seat a bullet at your target COAL.
do NOT seat a bullet in the second case.
Remove the seating stem from the die.
Screw the crimp die almost out of the press
Put the expanded case with no bullet seated into the shell holder and raise the ram.
Slowly screw in the die until you feel it hit the case.
Lower the ram and check the case. If it is still expanded turn the crimp die down 1/2 turn, raise and lower the ram to see if the belling is removed, repeat until the crimp is roughly what you want.
Now remove that brass from the press, do not adjust the die in any way.
Measure the OAL of the cartridge with the seated bullet
Put it in the press, raise the ram, lower the ram, and measure the OAL of the crimped cartridge.
If the cartridge is .01 shorter as a result only of crimping then I think you have a die problem.

Hope that helps.

[onelight]

If the bullet you are using is not the exact same bullet that is in the book your OAL may not wind up the same.
My guess is that you are over crimping or you may need to resize to get enough neck tension to resist being pushed back by a proper crimp I like the case at least .002 smaller than bullet diameter. You also could seat .010 longer so after crimping you wind up at the OAL you are looking for. Use the starting load and work up to be safe.
What can be a problem is if the bullet is longer below the crimp than the one in your load data it will raise pressure. But even with the exact components they used in the manual start at the starting load and work up.
The most common reasons for shaving lead is the bullet being pushed down by the seating punch when the case is pressed into the bullet during crimping. That or not enough flare but you would see that problem after seating before crimping . When I seat and crimp separate during seating I may remove a bit of flare seating but not have any discernible crimp until after the crimp stage.
I hope some of this helps , we are just guessing not being able to see your process.

[onelight]

Oops duplicate

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello nawagner,

The LEE expanding plug has a very sharp angle, my guess is your putting a kink into your brass.
261639
Here is my solid replacement along side the original powder thru expander.
Makes a smooth flare for cast boolits.

AntiqueSledMan.

[C.F.Plinker]

I am having a little problem loading my 41 Mag.

I am using Lee dies, no FCD.

After priming, case mouth expanding, loading powder and seating the bullet, yes I seat and crimp in separate steps, I go to seat the bullet and the die crimp section is shaving the bullet and pushing it too far into the case. This is before the case ever hits the dies portion that apply's the crimp.
."

It sounds like you are using the Lee seating die (not the carbide factory crimp die) to seat and crimp in separate operations. It is not clear (at least to me) that when you are seating you have raised the die body up at least 3 or 4 turns from the crimp position. This way no part of the case mouth can touch the part of the die that does the crimping. Once you have seated the boolit, and I like to seat them so that there is just a hint of the crimp groove visible above the case mouth, you can then remove the seating stem and lower the die body to where it will give you the amount of crimp you want. And here again I want to see the top of the crimp groove just peeking out above the case mouth. Now you can measure and see what the overall length needs to be when that particular boolit is loaded in that batch of brass.

You may want to consider buying another seating die so you can have one set up for seating and the other for crimping.

[frkelly74]

Lee Dies are all I have ever used on 41 Mag reloading. They have worked fine with no problem. Only expand/flare just enough so that the boolit can enter the case without shaving any lead, and do not let the crimp begin to be formed until the bullet is seated where you want it. The crimp should be completed at the same instant that the bullet stops moving into the case. It was suggested that seating and crimping can be done in separate operations and this is a good choice if you are having trouble getting the timing perfect. I would suggest making dummy rounds for each bullet you will be using and keeping them with your dies. It will streamline your adjusting process , Start the die into the press with the seater stem backed off so that it can not touch the bullet nose, put the dummy in the shell holder before screwing the die all the way down. Raise the ram all the way up, screw the die down until the crimp shoulder touches the crimped case, tighten the lock ring, screw the seater stem down to contact the bullet nose. You should be all set but check the first few rounds to be sure nothing changed. Have fun!!

[nawagner]

Followed JimB's process a couple of times with the same result. Thank you for the info on sizing new brass I had also thought of the neck tension issue as I lay awake in bed last night thinking about this.

I also tried to leave the COAL 0.01" longer with no avail. The COAL still ended about 0.01" shorter than desired.

AntiqueSledMan, I looked and double checked for kinks and I don't see any. I usually do not run a lot of flare.

This is definitely a learning process for me and appreciate all your help. With that help, I have come to the conclusion that I have a combination of a die problem and the shape of the bullet crimp groove.

The die is definitely pushing the bullet further into the case. A bullet will not pass through the seating and crimp die without a good bit of force so the die is definitely sizing the bullet because I had to tap pretty hard to get it through. The bullet diameter is 0.410" after passing all the way through the seating and crimp die. The bullet is cast and sized to 0.411". So the die is definitely too small for a 0.411" bullet which seems very standard for a 41 Mag cast bullet. So that's the die issue.

Next is the bullet crimp groove part:
I took the sized bullet (the one I ran through the die) and used the same process JimB laid out. All was good until the crimp. After crimping the COAL shrunk about a half of a hundredth, which is better but the bullet is still moving, even with a light crimp. I think what is happening, which I did not describe real well before is that the angle of the crimp groove combined with the force of the crimp creates a downward force on the bullet, thus moving it slightly into the case if trying to crimp anywhere along the crimp groove.

I've added a very crude drawing the help explain.
261644

Overall the bullet shape and COAL is not a big problem as I am actually doing a load workup and can work with the constraints.

The die is a problem and I will be calling Lee to resolve.

[onelight]

Will the front driving band of your bullet fit in the throat of your 41 cylinder ?

[nawagner]

I checked that as well and it is also a pretty tight fit. The throats measure 0.4105". Bore measures 0.410".

[C.F.Plinker]

Thanks for the "crude sketch" which is very clear and answers the questions I had in my earlier posting.

Now I would like to drift the thread a little. It looks like you are getting some boolit swaging when you seat the boolit since you are going from a sized diameter of .411 down to .410. I did not see this when I ran some tests on the Lee carbide factory crimp die. For that test I was seating using the same type of Lee die that you have. I was using R-P, W-W, and Midway brass that had wall thicknesses of .0095, .0105, and .0115 inches and boolits that were sized to .4095 and .4105 inches. So I am curious as to what brass you were using and what the inside and outside diameters are after expanding. I would also like to know what the diameter on your powder through expansion die is. My Lee die is .409 and my Dillon die is .407. The only swaging I saw was with the thickest brass and the larger boolit when using the Lee CFCD and it only reduced the size of the boolit by .0003 inches.

Thanks in advance.

[onelight]

I checked that as well and it is also a pretty tight fit. The throats measure 0.4105". Bore measures 0.410".

Will you be able to load them in the cylinder if you figure out a way to get the seating and crimping worked out.

[nawagner]

C.F.Plinker, I'm using Starline brass, new. If I am understanding which dimensions you want.
Sized brass: 0.4300" OD, 0.4100" ID
Flared brass: 0.4385" OD, 0.4200" ID
Diameter of the powder through die plug: 0.04100 at the bottom to 0.4220" at max. This is the part shown above in AntiqueSledMan's picture.

onelight, a loaded cartridge easily slides in and out of the cylinders. It's a Ruger Blackhawk. Should have mentioned the gun earlier.

[C.F.Plinker]

Thanks for taking the measurements. I was looking for a cause of the boolit swaging and don't see where it could be. Your cases have a wall thickness of .010 so they aren't thick. The ID of your sized case is .410 which is also the diameter of the bottom of the PtX die where the expansion occurs. You are flaring the case mouth to .420 so the boolit should slight right in since there is only .001 of neck tension. Since the brass will stretch that much it shouldn't be swaging the boolit down. This isn't the first tree I barked up that turned out to be the wrong tree - and it won't be the last.

Earlier you said that it took some pressure just to get the case in to the die. Can you take the die apart and clean it again and then try a flared case without the boolit. If this hangs up try reducing the flare to about .434 or.435 and see if that is any easier.

[nawagner]

I contacted Lee. They said the bullet should pass through the seating and crimping die, with the seater removed, by either falling through on its own or very light finger pressure. Definitely not the case. They said to send back with a bullet and they will either adjust sizing or send a new one.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello nawagner,

I guess I misunderstood what was happening.
Hopefully they will fix the problem, I'm sure they will.

AntiqueSledMan.

[onelight]

Well it sounds like you have a good plan .
Hope they get you fixed up.
The equipment we get for the most part is spot on so when I have a problem I figure it's me.
Usually winds up with me slapping my head going "I can't believe I did that"

[nawagner]

I usually figure any problems I'm having are operator error. I also find that it's these situations that help to learn a heck of a lot more than if it had all gone smoothly. I know much more about the process and dies now thanks to all of the help and questions from you all.

Thank you!

[JimB..]

I don’t use their dies just because I’ve accumulated others, but no doubt their customer service is top notch. Before you ship it off might be interesting to push a soft slug through the die and then compare that to what you get back.

[1hole]

Okay, if I understand your "problem" correctly you're trying to seat to a specific OAL but that changes during crimping; right? If so, forget book OAL, it's by no means critical. Just crimp in the crimping groove.

In 50+ years of handloading everything that has a replaceable primer I've not yet paid attention to any book OAL. I was taught not to totally trust anything in the books, to seat where I want, or need, to seat and develop my reloads from there ... I still follow that advice carefully so I've never had a KABOOM and I still have all of my eyes and fingers.

Now, what you're doing to make the bullets slip deeper - and it is you - is caused by the crimp ring rolling the case mouth inward at the wrong place on that bullet. Thus the squeezed case mouth squeezes into the back edge of the bullet's crimp grove in such a way as to force the bullets deeper. That's not a die flaw, your bullet is just different from what the book makers used; just seat your bullets maybe 15 thou (+/-) deeper to start with and your OAL won't change during crimping.

Revolver seating depths, especially so for larger cases and slower powder magnums, are not at all touchy about seating depth the way much smaller and high pressure ammo like 9mm and 10mm autoloader pistols are.

(I'm old and have absolutely no fastenation with "modern" large and twitchy pistols with huge capacity magazines .)

Remember, it's competent armed people who are dangerous, not the weapon. For social work I much prefer the power potential, total reliability and ease of safely reloading for large capacity revolvers like yours. If we learn to shoot reasonably well we'll never need 14-17 rounds to stop a fight; a huge number of misses aren't needed by anyone who can shoot well. And if the shooter can't shoot well a huge magazine probably won't save him.

Load and practice a lot. Learn to smoothly draw and accurately fire your nice .41 magnum six shooter as a trained reflex. Then you can walk confidently with it in the clean deep woods OR on slimy city streets!

[44magLeo]

I wish we had a like button. 1hole your last two paragraphs in your last post are right on.
These things you talk about is what the term well armed means to me. It's not the gun that counts, it's the man behind it.
Leo