Tips and opinions needed on neck flaring bottleneck cartridges

[Tripplebeards]

I have a question on flaring bottle necks. I used a lee universal sized I just picked up. I loaded the same 35 Rem rounds for my 336 with the boolit further out and and the necks look fine.

I had to load shorter for my 7600 35 Rem toady after checking the OAL. It seemed like the neck bulged out when going over the last crimp groove. I figured my crimp might flatten it back out...nope. If feeds and cycles just fine in my pump gun so is this OK? May try and flair a little less next time? Maybe it’s just fine? It just looks a little bulged to me.

This was a dummy round I made to check feeding.

https://i.imgur.com/lKy3n5r.jpg

[Winger Ed.]

The only time that's happened to me was when I had set the seat/crimp die down too far, or a longer case than the others snuck in.

Or trying to crimp when the neck couldn't roll into the groove, those times- I was trying to crimp above or below the groove.
With nowhere for the metal in the neck to go,,, it gets crushed down, hence, the bulge.

What little bit of roll crimping I do now, I do in a separate step after seating.
If a long case sneaks in, I can feel it 'bump', and stop there.

[fcvan]

For loading lead PCd boolits in rifle, I chamfer the inside of the case mouth to aid in seating, either plain base of gas checked. Your boolit looks tumble coated or ASBBPC 'shake and bake' coated. I do both ESPC and ASBBPC and yours look fine. I'm curious if expander ball is doing a good enough job. Anyway, If they load, I'd shoot them. The cases will definitely be fire fire formed for your chamber.

[Tripplebeards]

The case didn’t flair out till it went over the last lube groove. It didn’t bulge from crimping. Yes tumble coated with a few different powders mixes together... they never bake smooth. I use smokes clear PC for 99.9% of my hunting rounds now just because they bake glass smooth and imo OCD opinion the smoother clear PC aids in long range accuracy. The clear PC also fills in the dings in the dents caused from tumbling and normally the colored PC does not. They load and cycle perfectly.

[Tripplebeards]

Here are some I loaded longer for my 336. They don’t seem to bulge as much.

https://i.imgur.com/l4lDjsy.jpg

And the boolit I used...

https://i.imgur.com/ed00HOU.jpg

[Winger Ed.]

The bottom ones look like there is more room for the neck to roll into the groove compared to the top ones
without being crushed down making the bulge.

As Perry Mason would say, "Your Honor, the Defense rests".:bigsmyl2:

[megasupermagnum]

Is there any chance you can try the narrow expander or vice versa? I don't remember off the top of my head where the cutoff was for when to use the small vs large.

[Tripplebeards]

There are two different heads in the lee universal flaring tool. I used the one suggested. The case folds nicely into the crimp grove on the longer ammo. I used a lee factory crimp collet die on both. It squeezed flush to the crimp groove on the shorter rounds. The case was already bulged out before I applied any crimp. Other than not flaring my neck out as wide to start with next go around it’s probably just the nature of the beast the way I load this boolit short I’m guessing. Like I said it feeds just fine but I wanted to get some opinions and see why it’s bulging. I’m still wondering if it’s that last crimp groove expanding my case lip out like it’s flaring it even more when seating over it.

Here is another pic...

https://i.imgur.com/IzRyW9B.jpg

I never trimmed this case after I sized it. I can sure can see that it stretched uneven with crimp angle.

[gwpercle]

NOE makes an expander plug to use in the Lee Universal Neck flaring tool , it flares and expands a case mouth like a Lyman M-Die does . Cost is $6.50 from NOE . This set up really helps seating cast boolits, the Lee tool simply flares add the NOE expander plug to it and you have an M-Die type expander that works much better .
Gary

[onelight]

Did you readjust your crimp when you seated your bullet deeper the round in your hand it appears the crimp is on top of the front driving band of the bullet with no crimp grove under it could it be to much crimp?
What type crimp die are you using ?
And was that round crimped at the longer OAL before you seated it deeper to fit the other rifle?

[Tripplebeards]

I use a lee factory crimp collet die. I kept spinning my seater die down till it seated to 2.370. The neck flared out when it went over the last lube groove. I kept removing the round to measure and observe. This did not happen from crimping it was already bulged(flaired) out from going over the last lube groove. It seemed to flair out on the last lube groove. Saw it with my own eyes. I then crimped it. I figured it would flatten out the flair but it just crimped the edge so it now looks like it bulged from below it. Now it looks like a bulge. I could run a taper die down it to straighten out the neck before I crimp with the lee fCCD next time to see if it looks more even. I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal the note I look at it. I believe the case neck expanded with the shape of the boolit when I seated over the lube groove. I will start out with less of a flare next time to see if it helps. I flaired a hair more abs used a polished seater die.


It had a good amount of neck tension when seating and I gave it a nice even crimp so I would assume I’ll have some preetty consistent pressures abs velocities this way. Last week I didn’t flair as much and cut a ring in my boolits with the seater die when seating them.

[Rich/WIS]

If you're trying to crimp a bullet without a crimp groove, or a round where the crimp groove in the bullet does not align with the case mouth you are going to have issues. Seat to the crimp groove and then crimp. Make sure your cases are trimmed, variations in length will play hell with crimping if your case lengths are not uniform.

[megasupermagnum]

You know the other thing I just thought of. I wonder if the neck tension is so great that it sized your bullet down, and that bulge you see is the only part of the bullet not sized by the brass?

[onelight]

Try backing your seating die out of the press a turn or two and run the seating stem down back to the OAL you need and see if it still does that.

[charlie b]

You know the other thing I just thought of. I wonder if the neck tension is so great that it sized your bullet down, and that bulge you see is the only part of the bullet not sized by the brass?

This sounds like a really good explanation.

Maybe try using less expansion on the flaring die and see if there is less bulge. I set mine to just accept the base of the bullet.

I would have thought the Lee FCD would 'iron out' that portion of the bullet. Now I have to go take one of mine apart to see how the crimp collet is formed. :)

To test all this try seating a bullet (no crimp) and then pulling it and measuring the dia of the bottom portion and the last drive band.

Then seat another one more shallow and see if it does the same thing.

Might also want to measure the bullets before seating them in a case. I assume you are sizing them to bore dia or so. Do all the driving bands show marks of sizing?

[Tripplebeards]

I’m wondering if it was flared the whole time and it was just my eyes? I’m wondering if where I crimped my case to the boolit it was already starting to taper down? Here’s a pic of another one I seated longer so you can see the crimp and the groove I tapered to looks narrower. I’m thinking less a flare on my case to start out with might be my answer. I have no choice to but to seat shorter on the 7600 or it will jam into my lands. I also noticed on the darker cases that I had annealed first Folded right in on the ones I seated longer. They are the front left 3 on the photo of all the clear PC boolits. There is no bulge on them after seating or crimping.


https://i.imgur.com/bCzuzKR.jpg


I can pull the bullet and measure to make sure it didn’t size it down but there wasn’t a lot of force when I see the display down so I don’t think that’s the issue. I seated some that I didn’t flare much and neck sized with the same die and I cut rings in the boolits seating them and never sized down. This also was an old case I bought back in 04’ that I fired and had been sitting around for years so it the brass could be giving some spring back?

[waksupi]

I think you are over-crimping. Only run the case in far enough to straighten the case.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Here are some I loaded longer for my 336. They don’t seem to bulge as much.

https://i.imgur.com/l4lDjsy.jpg

And the boolit I used...

https://i.imgur.com/ed00HOU.jpg

The one in the right front corner looks slightly bulge and in my experience that is caused by trim length, it only takes a few thousands to cause that.

[John Boy]

When bullets are seated in the case, there needs to be a tension on the bullet between 0.001 and 0.002. To achieve this, either a Lyman M die or other expander plugs are used for the proper tension.The Lee Universal Dies do not provide the proper tension for the full length of the the seated bullet. They are great though to create the proper bell of the case mouth so when the bullet is first seated, half of the bullet base is loosely seated in the mouth. Instead of buying the more expensive expander plugs specific to one caliber, I buy compression dies from Track of the Wolf for 3 bucks and turn them to the proper caliber tension size. Finally, when the Lee Univesal plugs are used, the bell left on the case has to be removed by putting the reload in a FL sizing die and 'lightly' tapping the round to remove the bell
Also,a reverse procedure works good: expand the case to the proper dimensions with an expander die for the full length of the bullet, then create the bell with the Lee Universal to case bell needed then finally remove the existing flared bell in the FL sizing die
Or another process is to resize the bullet to the proper tension size instead of using an expander die

[Tripplebeards]

I’m with Johnboy, the cases are all trimmed to the exact same length and flaring the bell caused the bulge. My crimp just squeezed the rim and not the complete flare back down to flush. The bulge we are talking about is the bell flare that was never flattened back down with my crimp style. The FL die bump might be tried after if applying less of a bell flare does not fix the issue. Im just wondering if I might accidentally seat my boolits deeper by trying to flatten my case neck’s flare with a FL sizer die?

[John Boy]

Tripplebeards ... a light tap using the FL die will not push the bullet deeper unless the bullet is caused greater than the required tension. Normally happens when changing brass after shooting different bullets. I have it happen to me and the bullet disappeared in the case .... Hello Kinetic Puller

[onelight]

Your bullet seating die if adjusted correctly should remove all the flare.when using the the FCD you would adjust the seating to where it starts to crimp and back it of a just a little and then use the FCD.

[popper]

Agree with onelite - neck too long and hits the crimp in the seater. Or, FCD actually pushes case UP when crimping, had a few 30/30 crimped hard and buckled the neck. If the mouth caught on a really hard alloy LG edge it could buckle but normally would just shear off a lead ring. If those chamber OK, you are NOT filling the throat very well - size and expand larger.

[Tripplebeards]

I’m using an rcbs seater die. I raise my press handle with my shell holder installed and then I spin down my seater die till flush. Then I unscrew my die one full turn like I always do with jacked ammo as per RCBS directions. Should I not be backing it off? It’s not a carbide die set so I figured I should not have it flush with my shell holder. Maybe try to back it off a quarter then past flush? I just don’t want to distort or crush my cases.


Or are you saying I unscrew my seater die more because I’m hitting my neck and pushing it down when searting my boolit?

My max chamber length with this boolit is 2.399”. I loaded the above test round to 2.370”. It chambers just fine. My boolit is sized to .3595” and my barrel slugged at .357” so I can’t go any larger. I don’t think I should load them any longer or Ill jam and distort my boolits.

[onelight]

It is hard to tell what is happening but if the die is to low and is trying to crimp the bullet it can cause a bulge or the shoulder to collapse if it is to high it won't remove the bell on the case.
I would back the die out another turn seat the bullet to the correct depth and the back out the seating stem and adjust the die until it has all the case bell removed then with the case run back up in the die adjust the seating stem back down to the bullet when it comes out of the die it should look right. You can then use your FCD .

[Tripplebeards]

Makes sense. Thanks, I’ll try it.

[Tripplebeards]

Well I shot the flared neck loads today. My best group at 100 yards was MOA we’re just a hair over. It was the top group. The bottom group was shot with a lee 200 grain...with the same crimp style. Apparently my bulged necks is not affecting accuracy too much. I did noticed a little ring of lead scraped off left on some of the necks. I would assume I need to crimp a little lighter next time? I had zero leading other then the ring around my case. I did notice this happed more from softer alloyed boolits as well.

https://i.imgur.com/uv6NGaO.jpg

[onelight]

That is great . You did good !

[Tripplebeards]

Thanks the best I’ve done so far with J words was 1.1 inch 100 group with 180 grain hot cores “hot loaded”.

[Tripplebeards]

I lightened my trigger to 2 & 1/4 pounds and re tested My 40 grain varget load today...

First three shot group today at 100 yards...

https://i.imgur.com/uVbAZ73.jpg

I also had enough h4895 left to try one load. I rolled the dice and loaded three up with a max jacket book load...

https://i.imgur.com/yby2coi.jpg

[3leggedturtle]

Get the Lyman M Die been using them since '74. No shaving or cockeyed boolits.

[Win94ae]

Very good! Nice shooting!

[onelight]

These guys would get sic of me posting that Varget group at every opportunity if I had shot it .:-P
That is excellent .

[Cosmic_Charlie]

It is hard to tell what is happening but if the die is to low and is trying to crimp the bullet it can cause a bulge or the shoulder to collapse if it is to high it won't remove the bell on the case.
I would back the die out another turn seat the bullet to the correct depth and the back out the seating stem and adjust the die until it has all the case bell removed then with the case run back up in the die adjust the seating stem back down to the bullet when it comes out of the die it should look right. You can then use your FCD .

That is what I have always done.

[Tripplebeards]

I still had some lead shaving around the neck area when my boolits released from the case. I would assume where I have it crimped....folded over the lube groove, it’s going to shave off some lead. It doesn’t lead the barrel at all or affect accuracy so I would assume not to worry about it.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I use the Lyman 'M' or the NOE 'M' type stepped expanders for all my bottleneck reloading, even jacketed. When using the Lee Universal Expander, it is very important to have a uniform case length and use the smallest amount of flare possible without damaging the bullet. Just enough crimp to remove the flare to allow smooth chambering is all that is needed in 'box' magazine rifles. With the 'M' stepped expander I do not need to 'crimp' to remove the step in rifles with even a very slight chamfer into the chamber. Again minimum flare to seat the bullet without damage makes a slight 'crimp' possible, but the 'M' stepped expanders do work better.

[FredBuddy]

No one has mentioned using a
taper crimp die. I use the NOE neck expander,
then finish up with a Redding taper crimp die
to ensure a smooth neck.

This process solved a problem with a very
tight chambered 1949 Marlin 30-30.

[Tripplebeards]

I must be applying to hard of a crimp. I’m folding it over the lube groove edge so it must be shaving the top of the lube groove when firing. This isn’t happen during the seating process because I pulle a few to check. It doesn’t lead my barrel and doesn’t affect accuracy so I guess I won’t loose sleep over it. I’ll try less pressure the round of crimping and see if it helps.


This is in maybe one out of four or five that I fired. Some have less lead shavings in them and some don’t. My guess is they all do this but a lot of them probably get blown out the barrel when firing. I feel I’m flairing my cases pretty wide with the lee universal flair die to the point i can hear I click against the seater die when seating my boolits.

https://i.imgur.com/B0JUEpV.jpg

[robg]

trim cases,minimum flare,seat boolits use fcd die.but if your shooting that well can be much wrong with what your doing.