Am I cheap and ignorant? "best" dies for precision?

[gkainz]

I have a number of RCBS (mostly) dies, with a few Lee and a Redding in the mix and I remain ignorantly bliss about the quality I can produce with them. Hunting, plinking, practice - no complaints. However, I'm getting ready (or was, before the stupid COVID restrictions) to jump into the Long Range Precision game. Bought a Thompson/Center LRR in 6.5 Creedmoor and research is making my head spin.

RCBS was my first shopping cart choice, but then I started reading about Hornady's offerings up through the Match Grade and Benchrest grade, adding a micrometer seater stem, Forster dies and micrometer stem, etc etc ... and the dollar signs got significantly bigger.

I used to shoot High Power Rifle (loved the Palma matches) with a Navy issued NM Garand in .308 but shot the issued Lake City Match ammo - didn't reload any match ammo, since we were issued all we needed.

What's the general opinion? Will I be happy and competitive with loads from the basic RCBS set? Add a micrometer seating stem? Just shoot factory ammo?

Thanks!
Greg

[country gent]

Most any manufacturers dies will load good ammo. The big thing is to "prove" them out before loading large batches (occasional oops do get out) Ive used rcbs lyman lees with good results. I prefer redding bushing dies. For my 1000 yd ammo I did use straight line wilsons and an ahrbor press.

The plus to the bushing dies are 1) allows easy adjustment of the neck tension. 2) no need for an expander ball saving stretch and pull back. Several will make a sizing die to 3-5 fired cases from your rifle also

[mdi]

The dies are, IMO, less than 10% of the quality factor in handloads, the other 90%+ is the nut behind the handle. A sloppy reloader won't make good ammo even with the most expensive or sophisticated tools and a careful, conscientious reloader will make good, accurate handloads on the most crude, cheap tools.

[mattw]

I have been very happy with the RCBS Competion dies for 20 years now. I use them with all of my bench guns and have them in 221 FB, 222 Mag, 223, 308 and 30/06. But honestly, I think any quality die set will have much less affect on performance than the processes used during loading.

[garbler]

I have shelves full of conventional threaded dies and die sets but with any of my go-to precision rifles I rely on hand dies. They are simple dead-nut repeatably accurate devices that are easily portable, no threads, deflection or run out issues and are easily set up to manage neck tension with bushings and seating depths. If you’re shooting competition only, then a neck die with decap pin and seating die are all you need except a make do press. A drill press or any arbor type press will do. This is as simple and as accurate as it gets. Wilson is the leader in this field today but I’ve got hand dies from Dewey, Neil Jones and Wilson all of which work great. You will find the prices are competitive and when you factor in the price of a decent press you are way ahead. Just spitballing here but here is a photo of some of my hand dies and a crude arbor press I picked up a an auction for $8.20 with premium and tax.

Rick

261265261266

[Shawlerbrook]

The uniformity of components and process and procedures followed have much more influence on accuracy than the dies. That said, Redding benchrest dies would be my choice if I was loading for competition.

[AZ Pete]

Forster, if you are not going with an arbor press and hand dies.

Each die manufacturer is good, each will put out a die that is out of spec., on occasion. Each will replace an out of spec. die.

I have had better accuracy with Forster, followed by RCBS, then Redding.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

For threaded reloading press dies, my preferred setup for rifle is a Lee collet neck sizer die and a Forster BR seater.
I think it's tough to beat a Forster BR seater, I don't really see a need for the micro-adjust style.
But you probably want a FL sizer die for the LRR.

[garbler]

The hand die does one thing that the screw dies don’t except perhaps the Forster CoAx press which free floats a bit. Hand dies eliminate the accumulation of tolerances or slop between the threaded die, the built in SAMMI extra clearances of the die, the wiggly shell holder, and with some lighter made presses a degree of deflection under load. A simple run out test will confirm this.

I wonder for those who feel that the dies aren’t that important to accuracy then how do you control shoulder and headspace and is seating depth and concentricity important to you ? For general deer and elk hunting a little play is a good thing for loading reliability, but for real accuracy not so much. If all the mechanical parts like barrel and receiver are good to go, ammo is right and the shooter does his/her part then it’s usually bedding, seating or barrel harmonics that will answer. Just spitballing here

Rick

[mattw]

Personally, I did not say dies are not important. But, once you have established that they are consistent and repeatable, for me it is time to move on. I know where I want the seating depth because I have a measured or cast chamber and past performance of loads that have been shot in the past. I do have a few rifles that are designed for one hole groups and have not had trouble making the groups in the past, but my eyes really suck now, so my daughter is starting to shoot the tiny groups. I guess I should have said... if you trust your dies then there is much more that goes into producing the highest quality ammo.

[country gent]

I will add to my post not to manufacturers but what to look for.
Press a good solid press that has little spring with the ram and die aligned as closely as possible and as square as possible to each other. a misaligned press introduces issues on its own. The arbor presses allow for very good alignment. The other to look at is the presses leverage.
Dies are another item to look at into warner redding wilson and some others will make custom dies (both straight line and 7/8 14) to 3-5 fired cases from your rifle. How good a set of dies is also depends on the rifles chamber. Dies need to load ammo thats concentric and sized for the rifles chamber.
Shell holders can induce misalignment and make sizing for a minimum chamber harder.
cases that arnt concentric again introduce a variable that has affects.

By a quality set of dies in a solid press hold your end as close as possible. measure brass, weight wall thickness and overall length. Powder charges need to be as close as you can hod them with your equipment. Here a very good scales helps a lot and a set of check weights.

Quality control should be as tight as possible when starting out.

As an example when you set your scales zero it and set to desired weight then use the check weights to verify the settings. This way the scales becomes a "comparator" and the check weights are the zero.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The dies are, IMO, less than 10% of the quality factor in handloads, the other 90%+ is the nut behind the handle. A sloppy reloader won't make good ammo even with the most expensive or sophisticated tools and a careful, conscientious reloader will make good, accurate handloads on the most crude, cheap tools.

Big ditto on this point. I can make perfect ammo with a Lee Loader. And lots of times that's all I want mess with.

I mostly use one of my Hand Presses now as it is more convenient than standing in the shop running another press. I can sit at the dining room table and watch TV while loading rounds.

If you understand what you are doing you can make ammo with very few tools. A Lee Loader is a luxury at that level.

Randy

[fast ronnie]

Wilson straight line dies work well for precision. Neil Jones is another good one, but don't know if he is still in business.

[mdi]

W,R. Buchanan; Big ditto on this point. I can make perfect ammo with a Lee Loader. And lots of times that's all I want mess with.
I waited for someone else to say that. but I truly believe it, and have reloaded some very good handloads with my Lee Loaders (I dunno about "perfect", but pretty darn good!). IIRC a 1,000 yard record was held by a shooter who reloaded his target ammo with a Lee Loader...

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Straight cartridges are the goal. The less run out of the case, case neck and bullet, the more accurate the cartridge will be. Dragging a sized case over the expander ball is the biggest loss of accuracy, IMO. Neck sizing - the Lee Collet die and the Redding 'S' Bushing dies seem to keep the case straighter. Bumping the shellholder against the sizing die also straightens/squares the case when full-length sizing. I use Redding Competition shellholders to control 'headspace'. Neck expansion is done using a Lyman of NOE neck expanding plug. Bullet seating is accomplished by partial seating, giving the case, half a turn and fully seating. Cases should be trimmed square AFTER sizing, proper annealing can keep bullet seating consistent. I have not found significant differences in die brand using Lee, RCBS, Redding, Lyman, even Herter's. Care and technique are the keys. Recent manufactured brass does seem to be much better than even 10 year old stuff, just better machinery and measuring techniques, so start with new brass of recent manufacture.

[Greg S]

As John B said.

[M-Tecs]

Straight cartridges are the goal. The less run out of the case, case neck and bullet, the more accurate the cartridge will be. Dragging a sized case over the expander ball is the biggest loss of accuracy, IMO. Neck sizing - the Lee Collet die and the Redding 'S' Bushing dies seem to keep the case straighter. Bumping the shellholder against the sizing die also straightens/squares the case when full-length sizing. I use Redding Competition shellholders to control 'headspace'. Neck expansion is done using a Lyman of NOE neck expanding plug. Bullet seating is accomplished by partial seating, giving the case, half a turn and fully seating. Cases should be trimmed square AFTER sizing, proper annealing can keep bullet seating consistent. I have not found significant differences in die brand using Lee, RCBS, Redding, Lyman, even Herter's. Care and technique are the keys. Recent manufactured brass does seem to be much better than even 10 year old stuff, just better machinery and measuring techniques, so start with new brass of recent manufacture.

I was going to add my two cents but MostlyLeverGuns stated what I was going to say.

At the front end of the long range games shooting a lot too develop technique and most importantly wind reading ability will give you the most returns. While not cheap go with the Redding 'S' Bushing dies. I do prefer the Forster BR seating dies over the Redding but both are outstanding.

Wilson style straight line do work well for precision but for the volume of shooting required to become an effective wind reader they are way to slow for most. Long range matches are mostly won or lost on wind reading ability.

[mozeppa]

duplicate

[mozeppa]

never buy cheap because AS you become informed you will never be satisfied with it's performance.

learn for a while first...then spend your hard earned cash.

[rca]

I like rcbs sizing dies ,never had a problem with them. But I use ponsness warren seating dies ( inline ) like the vickerman they are a little more user friendly as the case does not have to be raised to the bushing before dropping the bullet in the window they will not fall out the bottom.

[garbler]

These discussions always turns into a Ford vs Chevy pissing contest unless you are waist deep in precision rifles, ammo and match shooting. I’ve wasted so many hours and dollars chasing my tail in pursuit of accuracy it’s numbing. I can honestly say that most of my rifles never responded to the long list of case prep and loading procedures that the accuracy nuts and vendors preach. But I can also tell you I’ve had three or four rifles that went from 1”-1 1/4” grouping to 3/8” and tighter by finding the right bullet and seating depth, finding the right powder and tweaking the forearm bedding and/or clearance.

If it was me I’d buy a couple of hand dies and start shooting. A neck die with decapper and seating die. You don’t even need a arbor press as a plastic mallet will work. Yes hand dies look different but if you understand brass and head spacing, neck tension and concentricity and bullet seating depth they become stupid simple. To most new and hobby reloaders this just sounds weird and nuts cause everybody at the party has a press and screw in dies. But that is pretty much herd mentality and the long way around to match grade accuracy. It’s the way comp shooting is. Somebody wins a couple of bench matches with a rifle that has a wheel on it and I guarantee everybody will have a wheel on their gun next time. Keep it simple, fewer parts, and learn bench or shooting mechanics and have fun. Have Fun, repeat have fun.

Rick

[1hole]

Bottom line first; there is no "best" die set we can give you because no one makes the best, especially not with normal threaded dies.

Fact is, Bench Rest hand dies are the absolute "best" but to see any difference between them and good threaded dies demand a very costly and near perfect custom BR rig. Few of us have that and we are better served with threaded dies.

Threaded die sets come in two classes; first and second place. There is an average improvement between those two but, on average, it's not a lot so threaded dies remain popular.

First place in threaded goes to Forster/Redding "Comp/BR" dies because their excellent and nearly identical seaters have full length body sleeves that hold cases straight in line with the bullets during seating. All other threaded dies are tied for second place, and I mean ALL of them. All of them are made to the same SAAMI tolerances so any of them will, on average, vary as much between dies of the same maker as there is between makers.

A few makers use very short and loosely held sliding sleeves to align a seating bullet but the sleeves have to be loose fitting in the die body or they wouldn't easily slide up and drop down by gravity. F & R seater sleeves are full cartridge length and are under spring pressure. They can be better fitted as well as being long enough to insure better alignment during seating.

Vickerman side loading seaters are aids to the user. Side loading windows are nice but their bullet sleeves are too sloppy and short to do much for alignment. Mr. Vickerman came up with them in the early 60s (IIRC) but they soon died out because that were costly to make/buy and did no better work (on average) than conventional seaters. But, several other makers, then and now, market their copies of Vic's as if they are magic; they are not.

Side comment on seating - seating a bullet part way in a conventional die and turning it in steps to continue sounds so good it has to work, right? Wrong. Seater dies are so loosely fitting that any bullet which starts crooked will continue out of line no matter how many times it gets turned. (Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't yet used an accurate concentricity gage to check it.)

Micrometer seating stems, of themselves, do nothing to improve accuracy. They are nice but costly and all they can do is allow the user to change seating depths easily. I have a couple and like them but find it almost as easy to use the RCBS Precision Mic or Hornady LnL headspace and seating depth tools.

I like to "custom FL size" with body dies (anyone's) followed by a Lee collet neck sizer. The collet die's long mandrel insures the necks are as straight and the same inside diameter as we can make them. And the necks don't all have to be turned to exactly the same thickness as bushing neck sizers need them to be. BUT, that Lee die has a moving part (the collet) so there's a short learning curve to use it correctly; some folk just won't do that and blame their failures on the die.

Now you know there is no easy answer to "what's best!" I say get any conventional die set you feel good about and learn to use them to their limits. Then, if you want to do better you'll have enough experience to make better judgements for yourself.

[EDG]

If you want the best advice for accuracy dies you might check out web sites for accuracy. There are better dies than what most of us use but they also depend on match grade rifles with custom chambers and the shooters employ specialized reloading techniques.
Accurate shooter is one of those sites and it has a reloading forum.

Warner Tool Company is one of those custom die companies.
Neil Jones is another of high quality threaded dies.

Wilson is another maker of very practical inline dies.

I have used Wilson and Neil Jones bushing neck dies for about 35 years in Remington 40X-BR. benchrest rifles.

Accuracy results far exceed threaded dies used with my other high quality rifles.
I have no idea how good threaded dies would work with a benchrest rifle since I have only used inline dies with my bench guns.
I have to assume the excellent accuracy I get is largely due to the precision of the rifle combined with the use of inline dies.

[David2011]

This is second hand information from a friend who loads 2 different 6.5 cartridges and 300 Win Mag for long range shooting and is very successful. He recently started using the Hornady Match Grade Bushing dies and loves them. He’s getting better than 1/2 moa out to 1000 yd. with all 3 cartridges. Says he gained about 1/4 moa in accuracy over his previous dies.

[M-Tecs]

I have no idea how good threaded dies would work with a benchrest rifle since I have only used inline dies with my bench guns.


I mostly play the long range games and as I stated above they are mostly won and lost by your wind reading ability. The exception is 600 and 1,000 yard benchrest (don't shoot these but I have built some rifles for those that do). For NRA Highpower, Palma an F-Class a solid 1/2" MOA for 10 shots will take you to the winners circle if you can read wind well.

Not sure what the accuracy difference between inline dies and quality threaded dies is but I can hold between 1/4" to 3/8" MOA for 10 shoot groups at 300 yards with my threaded dies. After 300 yards I mostly switch to holding waterline since I am not the greatest at wind reading. Lapua brass trimmed and chamfered and neck annealed at least every third firing. No other brass prep.

I do own one set of inline dies but I haven't touched them since the early 90's. Just too slow for the type of competition I do/did. When I was seriously competing I fired on average 4K a summer.

[jonp]

The dies are, IMO, less than 10% of the quality factor in handloads, the other 90%+ is the nut behind the handle. A sloppy reloader won't make good ammo even with the most expensive or sophisticated tools and a careful, conscientious reloader will make good, accurate handloads on the most crude, cheap tools.

This +1. If you can afford them, micrometer dies are worth it for exact repeatability if thats a word.
I'd also suggest a good scale like a gemtech 250 for very accurate powder charges but it's not really needed.
It's all about doing the same thing as exact as possible but the main thing is to have fun. If you find yourself angry or cursing a piece of equipment then you have lost sight of what it's all about

[dverna]

I am not cheap. I am ignorant and impatient.

M-Tecs’ post makes a lot of sense to me.

I bought 400 rounds of Norma match ammunition a few years ago for a “sniper” course I was to attend. The course was cancelled so I have used a bit of the ammunition to check the accuracy potential of my .308 rifles.

In every case my reloads, using Sierra GameKing bullets, have outperformed it. I use standard RCBS dies, trimmed LC cases, and a Co-Ax press. Maybe I got a bad batch of Norma....?

One of your options was to purchase Match ammunition, so based on my limited experience you can easily do better without expensive dies or loading at a snails pace.

I would buy the dies M-Tecs suggested and work up a load. You will need them anyway to produce practice ammunition even if you decide to buy match ammo, or a special set of dies and in-line press.

[David2011]

Forgot to mention previously, my own favorite rifle shot a .324”/100 yd group by neck sizing with a backed-off standard RCBS sizing die and corresponding seating die. I did nothing special other than weighing the charges. Have to agree with M-Tecs that at longer ranges reading the wind is the most important factor.

I took a 300 yd shot in a tactical match when I could barely feel the breeze on my face. Shooting a .223 with a 53 gr Sierra MKHP, I held on the left edge of the USPSA plate for a dead center hit. It was hard to imagine the bullet drifting that far in so little wind but the table was dead on.

[1hole]

The O.P.'s question was which are the "best dies" and my reply was an answer to that. But, as others have now mentioned, accuracy is much more dependant on factors other than the dies.

Load development is the most critical single issue for accuracy. I doubt that weighing powder and counting kernels matter much, +/- .1 gr. is plenty accurate.

Good cases matter too. Lapua is easy but more common cases that have been properly prepared also solves that.

Finding a bullet the barrel likes is probably the biggest single factor for accuracy. Finding a powder and charge weight that burns best in the pressure range the individual barrel likes is next. Then, fine tuning a good load by changes in seating depth (OAL) matters a LOT ... but sweating about a +/- 5 thou variation won't matter much IF the rest of the load is in the right range. Some people find different primer brands can change their average accuracy a little bit.

Someone saying, "I get this with my favorite dies so they must be the best" miss the point; ALL our die makers do good work but it's hit or miss for straight line seating.

The normal range of tolerances means some threaded seaters are great but that's a matter of luck, it's not something anyone can be assured of from any die brand. On average, exceptions admitted, the best threaded seaters are Redding and Forster because of their full body length seating sleeves and that average can be counted on. But, NO SEATER can load straight ammo in bad case necks - so, prep your cases or buy Laupua.

The other (massive) accuracy factors of trigger skills, rifle and scope quality, wind doping, bench technique, etc., cannot be compensated for with a change in brands of dies - or presses, or scales, or etc.

[David2011]

1hole, that reminded me of a conversation with one of the guys at Sierra. I was working on .22-250 loads and not satisfied with my results so I gave Sierra a call. The guy told me that they found the best results for that caliber with an .020-.030 jump to the lands. Surprised me but it helped a little. Bottom line with that rifle was that it shot a wide range of bullets and powder charges equally well but none were tack drivers. Coyotes and hogs don’t know the difference but it will never be a target rifle with the barrel that’s on it now.

[1hole]

... working on .22-250 loads and not satisfied with my results so I gave Sierra a call. The guy told me that they found the best results for that caliber with an .020-.030 jump to the lands.

Yeah. Seems the "common wisdom" of obtaining best accuracy with bullets at or just into the rifling is often a bad mistake. The ONLY way to know anything in this business is to experiment with our own rigs.

I load hot; if I want less than factory speed I'll go to a smaller cartridge.

I usually start load development seating around .020" off the lands and try different bullets and powders. After I've found the best load at .020" I will back a few off to .030" and .040" and close a few into .010" and touching. I rarely find the best seating to be closer than .020" and sometimes as far off as .050"!

[garbler]

I was thinking that the OP and this thread would stay clear of much of the ‘ Favorite Brand ‘ chatter and stay with basic mechanics. I’ve been away a few days and see the discussion is drifting into throating geometry and seating. Folks this is a subject that has no answer. Chambering design is an ever evolving subject that is different from one cartridge and bullet combo to the next. Bullet ogives and chamber throats are as varied as fishing lures. One rifle wants to touch the landes, the next wants some free bore and jump then all thos loaders who move in or out by the .000” looking for the sweet spot.

Even if you dial in all the numbers and coordinates you still have bedding and barrel harmonics to deal with. I guess I just thought the OP was looking for help with dies and loading so he could get into match shooting. He told us he had dies and was good to go for hunting and general target/plinking but was looking for help for beginning match accuracy. So just maybe we are getting too far ahead of the question

Rick

[EDG]

There are a lot of factors that affect accuracy.
It can be difficult to determine just how much difference a set of dies will make without changing anything else.
I once had a set of dies that produced handloads with a lot of run out.
The seater appeared to have been drilled crooked or it bent during heat treat. The seater stem ran out about .030 when chucked in a new lathe.
With the original crooked die my groups were 1.5" at best.
The factory replaced my dies and my groups shrank to about 5/8" without any other changes.8

[M-Tecs]

The goal of any die is to produce as consistent and concentric ammunition possible. Some types do a better job than others. How much these variations effect accuracy is open to discussion, however, few would argue that lack of consistency and concentricity is a good thing. As to what best that varies by application. Researching what the winners of the type of competition you are doing helps trying to reinvent the wheel since they have already figured out what works. Techniques that are best for 100 yard Benchrest may not be realistic for a NRA Long Range, Palma or F-class.

Various types of inspection gauges are available and almost a necessity of serious long range reloading. At a minimum you should have a case runout gauge. I also recommend a RCBS type Precision Mic https://www.rcbs.com/case-prep/measure/353735.html While it's great for adjusting the initial headspace it's greatest benefit is to inspect how much variation you are getting with shoulder spring back.

Some light reading on the subject below.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/how-to-load-more-concentric-ammo/

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/neck-tension-not-just-bushing-size/

[EDG]

I suggest you try the Hornady case gage that fastens to a dial caliper.
It works with many different cartridges and is very quick and convenient.
Because of its flexibility you can use it on cartridges for which there is no dedicated RCBS gauge.

[M-Tecs]

Hornady correctly named their tool as "Lock-N-Load® Headspace Comparator & Anvil Base Kit" https://www.hornady.com/headspace-bushings#!/

It is a comparator and not a direct measuring devise unless it's used in conjunction with a headspace gauge. It works well for checking shoulder set back. Stoning Point was the original. I purchased one and the O.A.L gauges when they first came out. Through the years either though estate purchases of trades I have picked up 3 or 4 more sets of each. They rarely get used.

I started using the Mo's gage when it first came out and switched to the RCBS when they came out since having a direct measurement has several advantages over a comparator even though I have headspace gauges for most calibers I load for.

Compared to the RCBS the Hornady has several shortcomings. This video covers the differences fairly well and yes the gentleman doing the video doesn't pronounce "comparator" properly.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4nYqIe6z04

[EDG]

For me the RCBS and Mos tools are nearly worthless since they are not made in most of the calibers I reload. For example with a .243 you can buy a RCBS tool that is only intended for the .243. The Hornady tool can check almost any bottle necked case.
The Hornady tool can be used as a comparator or you can zero it using a headspace gage and directly measure the head to datum length.
Try measuring 100 cases some time with your screw together gadget. You will find the Hornady tool is much more convenient and much faster.

[gkainz]

Some great info and discussion here - thanks! I'm still researching and vacillating and shopping and ... then work reality cuts that all short and I lose the bubble for 4-5 days. Anyway, maybe I should have said "your favorite" instead of "best", since that's what I was thinking and implied by putting "best" in quotes.
But, this thread does prove there are a lot of personal favorites, which I'm glad to hear and read about - thank you! And the reference to Ford vs Chevy debate, yeah - many discussions turn into that. Me? I grew up a Ford guy - dad and granddad had a power line construction company and had a yard full of F-250 to F-800 Ford trucks. I followed that favoritism until I decided I was a Cummins fan and had to settle for the Dodge shipping crate they came in. :D

[Half Dog]

I enjoy the Forster dies. I smile each time I use them and when I measure the results. My problem is the minute play in the presses bushings. Don’t forget about a concentricity gage.

[robg]

a guy in or club gets his rifles to shoot tiny groups then sells them <usually has a que of members wanting them>he uses lee dies and checks seating etc ,hes an engineer and is very precise in his loading.i think its the man not the machine.he even sold a rifle back to its owner after the guy thought it was shot out,he stripped it cleaned it fine tuned a load that shot well let the original owner try it ,he said it had never shot that well before and bought it back.

[Iowa Fox]

For threaded reloading press dies, my preferred setup for rifle is a Lee collet neck sizer die and a Forster BR seater.
I think it's tough to beat a Forster BR seater, I don't really see a need for the micro-adjust style.
But you probably want a FL sizer die for the LRR.

I've tried a lot of dies and the best that I have found is,

Lee collet neck sizer
Redding full length body die.
Forster BR seater

The RCBS full length sizer will work pretty good but pull the de priming rod and expander ball. Use a Lyman M die to open the necks back up. All that expander ball does is stretch cases and pull the necks crooked. This is what I was doing before I switched to the above dies. I full length size every time. Do yourself a favor and full length every time, about .002 measured bump on the neck, good lube and 10 seconds of dwell time.

[jakemo]

I like RCBS and Forster but as others have said, and I agree, it mostly has to do with the guy pulling the handle. Consistency is the name of the game. For precision reloads, I like my Forster Co-Ax press.

[lightman]

If you plan to get into long range competition with a factory rifle I suggest a set of dies that have a standard full length sizer and a straight line seater. I personally like and use Redding dies for this and their Master Hunter Set contains these 2 dies. Forrester also has a set like this and I think Hornady does. I'm not a fan of bushing dies unless you get into neck turning. I do use bushing dies for my tight neck custom rifles that I have to neck turn for. The micrometer tops are nice, and they look cool, but I could do just as well without them.

I can load ammo with a standard RCBS or Redding die set that shoots better than factory ammo. This includes LC Match, Black Hills Match and Federal Gold Metal. Skill and attention to detail do more than more expensive equipment. As a Highpower shooter, you know how important reading the wind is.

[1hole]

I like rcbs sizing dies ,never had a problem with them.

What sizer dies did you have problems with?

[Harter66]

I don't shoot competition , but I probably have an unreasonably high expectation crime my rifles regardless of origin of cost , I have 4 the average Joe , or at least I can't anymore , afford to have built . Its because of the standard , base parts , and care in assy . I also have a couple of low grade farm guns that I'm still trying to find a bad load in .

I have dies from circa 1961 forward to 2016 from Lee , Lyman , Pacific , RCBS , CH , Redding , Bonanza/Forster , and Lachmiller from 380 ACP to 12 ga with stops along the way for standards and the mildly exotic .

I've had die induced confidence quite literally shot to pieces , and asked out loud why in Lucifer's name would anyone spend that much retail for a die set with so little to offer that made me do extra prep ? A tool for job that's does the job , is why there are so many tow balls around with pipe wrench knerling . I won't run down a particular brand because to date I've had one die I should have sent back out of probably 20 or more new sets . I instead dumped the set with full disclosure and replaced the Lee carbide with a steel RCBS set . I also just don't see the other $40 + for a production set of Redding over RCBS , the 45-70 set made me work for the 100 pieces of brass my buddy saved me they're fine for mine into mine not so much for 1x in someone else into mine . I've rolled a lot of rounds looking for visible run out . Unless there was another visible defect there just wasn't enough enough to get all spun up about . I loaded 264 WM with a 3.30 OAL and it was visible on the roll test but there's .8" of bullet sticking out of case over an inch from the shoulder contact so .0005 really isn't all that far off where the bullet makes contact and it went mostly away in fire formed brass neck sized . I do have a brand new to me set of dies to re-evaluate the situation . That rifle shot under MOA out past 300 yd right off so I don't know that I can improve on that . With paper patch and a table spoon of Unique it delivered 5" for 5 at 400 yd .
I can't see the value in high priced tools for even a competition shooter until you reach the level of buying 3 reamers to build a rifle and a .0005 run out on bore center to bolt face matters and you can actually see the results on target not caused one of 100 others data points then go for it .

A Wilson or Forster inline seater might make a little difference or it might just be a confidence building tool . Check what you're producing with the tools at hand if the cartridge needs to improve take steps as you see fit .

[jmorris]

Dies are down the list of importance of things needed for best accuracy, like below what bullet but are above what press they are in.

With a good rifle, optic and bullet/load, I can get to 3/8 MOA with even Lee dies, to get that rifle to .1's though, I use custom made dies for the chamber.

The micrometer adjustments are handy at first or if you like to change things all the time but I generally find where everything likes to be and don't ever fiddle with them after that.

I made this little fixture that works on pretty much any die that makes it easy to make precision adjustments. Even with the cost of the indicator included, it was cheaper than adding the micrometer feature to a single seat die and I can use it on any die.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ssw-AbNH7N4

[Dapaki]

I am not seeing any mention of,
1. Case runout
2. Magazine to chamber loading

Direct from any of the manufacturers, everybody has some cases that have excess runout, the end result even in excellent dies is still a banana-round. Making a simple collet to hold the unprocessed brass and check runout is by far the best cheap tool for accuracy of long brass, IMHO.

How you transition the loaded round to the chamber is also important, a dent that deflects the air will change the trajectory. Roll your window down when driving 70 and place your hand flat into the wind and see how stable it is then pitch your hand just 1 degree and see how much force you need to use to stabilize your hand.

I got laughed at when shooting my Mini-14 at a 300 yard target some 20 years ago by an old codger with a bolt action. He had his ammo in plastic boxes, standing proud with the bullets protected with a thin sheet of soft foam for transportation. He loaded them one by one with great care and was shooting MOA groups while me and my fancy ARS barrel were running minute of barn!

"Slow down, load a round by hand and slide the bolt home, try a shot and see if it improves."

Sure enough, minute of pie plate groups just from not stripping the round off the magazine at an angle into the chamber.

Just my opinion of course but the die is the very last of my worries.

[gkainz]

Well, I guess I let my contrarianism override my cheapness (a little), as brown Santa delivered my Hornady 544655 Match Grade die set yesterday. Now if the rest of my company and customers would go back to work in the office, maybe my workload will slack off a bit from almost 24/7/365 and I can start working up loads for my new TC LRR. Fingers crossed.

So, I now have 2 sets of Hornady dies - I haven't cleaned the factory oils off the Hornady .22TCM dies yet, for the same reason above - no time (and still have a good supply of factory .22TCM ammo on the shelf).

Thanks for all the discussion - appreciate it!

Greg

[ioon44]

I have been buying some of the new Hornady dies and have been happy with them I think you will be also.