Taper or Roll for 38/357? Anyone use Expanders Anymore?

[psychbiker]

Gonna start reloading 38sp and 357mag. Die set came with a used press I got like 8 years ago.

It’s a hornady 38/357mag max did set and has the dual seat and crimp garbage die. Such a pain to adjust. I need to get a separate crimp die. Should I do a roll or taper crimp? Will be used in a revolver for now.

Also, who uses expander dies only anymore? With powder through expander dies, these sure seem like wastes to me.

[Bazoo]

I crimp revolver ammo. I trim for consistency, and seat and crimp in the same operation. I roll crimp. I also use the expander die as I don't load on a progressive machine.

[C.F.Plinker]

If your boolit had a crimp groove you can use the roll crimp. If, like some of my wadcutters, there is no crimp groove use a taper crimp. Note that some dies start off with a taper crimp and transition to a roll crimp.

Many old die sets came with an expander die. It could have had a decapping pin in it also. This worked fine for decades prior to the widespread use of turret and progressive presses because powder was dispensed with dippers of separate powder measures. If you will be using a separate powder measure and have the old expander die then you don't need to get a new die that is the powder through expander. If you will be using a powder measure that is case activated then you will need the powder through expander.

[dannyd]

Use a taper crimp die for all my 38/357 loads. These are target loads so far about 100,000 no problems. Brass last longer and I have never had a bullet walk out. My expander is in the powder measure, but I do use a expander die from time to time.

[JimB..]

I roll crimp for revolver ammo when there is a crimp groove. I prefer to seat and crimp in separate operations, but having a crimp groove makes it easy and just as effective to do them together.

[USSR]

Gonna start reloading 38sp and 357mag. Die set came with a used press I got like 8 years ago.

It’s a hornady 38/357mag max did set and has the dual seat and crimp garbage die. Such a pain to adjust. I need to get a separate crimp die. Should I do a roll or taper crimp? Will be used in a revolver for now.

Also, who uses expander dies only anymore? With powder through expander dies, these sure seem like wastes to me.

psychbiker,

I taper crimp .38 wadcutters, everything else gets roll crimped. You do know you can adjust a seater die so that you can only crimp and not seat a bullet? While I seat and crimp revolver loads in one operation, with pistol rounds I set the die up to only seat the bullet, and after I have seated all the bullets I set the die up to only crimp all the cases. One advantage to these expander dies is, you can get different size expanders made to vary the amount of case tension holding cast bullets of various diameters.

Don

[Mike Kerr]

Our Cast Boolits site is home to some of the vanishing number of reloaders who do still:

A. use separate expanders; B. Seat and crimp in one operation; C. think turret press operations and progressive press operations are not in their wheelhouse.

It is also home to a deep knowledge base so we live and let live.

[44magLeo]

I have several press and use expanders in most every thing I load.
I do crimp my straight walled pistol cases as a second step. I use the Lee collet type crimp die on them. I like them better than the Carbide FCD.
On bottle neck cases I use the expander in the size die for jacketed and NOE expanders in the Lee universal flare die for cast.
I like Lee's collet neck size dies and FCD's on bottle neck cases.
I have three s/s presses as well as two turret presses. I like them all.
I don't load massive amounts of ammo, so I have no need for a progressive press.
I have powder through expander dies that I don't use that feature, I use one of my powder measures. They mount on a shelf at eye level in front of the powder scale. The sacle behind the measure speeds up setting and checking the measures.
Leo

[dale2242]

I roll crimp revolver loads.
I use Lee FCD on semi-auto loads.
I single load so my expander is in my 3 die set, usually with the decapper...dale

[Shiloh]

The expanders on progressive dies seem to be made for J work bullets. I had Buckshot make an oversize expander for cast bullets.
So yes, I do use expanders. Does anyone commercially produce oversize expanders for Dillon??

Shiloh

[Chuck Perry]

I load revolver rounds on my progressive. I use Lyman "M" expanders and separate seat and crimp dies. Roll crimp only for my revolver rounds.

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[engineer401]

If I had only one crimp die it would be taper crimp. It’s more versatile. I still use m type expanders for loading on a single stage press.

[onelight]

Nothing wrong with seating and crimping in the same die but I have found it to be much less tolerant of mixed case loading for bulk .
Loading cast with a proper crimp groove when bulk loading mixed cases it works just as well as a separate crimp for me.
What got me using a separate crimp was auto pistol loads with no crimp groove where long cases would scrape the bullet during the process of removing the bell while pushing the bullet into position and cause chambering issues and short cases would not get all the case bell removed and cause chambering issues
I don't have to have match accuracy for most of my range ammo but I want it all to work in all the guns for that cartridge for my short range plinking ammo with out having to worry about bullet set back in autos and lever guns or bullets jumping crimp in revolver loads . A separate crimp die simplifies the process on the LCT or a progressive for ammo that does not require top precision with mixed cases.
So for me it's roll crimp into a crimp groove for revolvers and lever guns .
Taper crimp crimp for auto pistol rounds and I use a Lee 4 die set for both on most of my handgun ammo.
Several ways to do all this you use what fits your process and and the finished product that satisfies you.
3 die sets aren't garbage , but need more case prep a bonus is a more consistent finished product.

[Martin Luber]

There ya have it! At the end of the day, flip a coin?

Seriously, see what your existing die does (roll or crimp) and get the one seat-crimp die you don't have. Then you have a choice...but do seat and crimp separately.

You'll find a use for both l would bet. Model 52 and some other 38 wc autos tend to prefer a roll crimp for feeding.

Good luck

[dannyd]

I did roll crimp for about the first 10 years. Trimmed all the brass so the crimp would be right. Then a guy asked me to load some 45acp for him, so that was the first I used a taper crimp. It was great didn't have to trim brass. So I got two Redding 357 tapered crimp dies and never looked back. Taper works in my leaver guns too. I you are going to use full house 357 loads a roll crimp may be needed, but if you don't trim the brass why bother.

[derek45]

Revolvers:
I strongly prefer a good roll crimp, and avoid bullets and molds that don't have a crimp groove or cannelure.

I seat and then crimp.

https://i.imgur.com/EPydk5A.jpg

clear coated

https://i.imgur.com/nQGypmJ.jpg

[onelight]

I do love the look of good Kieth 44S on a Sunday morning 8-)

[dannyd]

I break out my old Kieth molds every now and then. They have the round lube rings. Only loaded 25 rounds of 44 Magnum to much for me sold the gun. Everyone has their own way and if it works that great.

[Petrol & Powder]

As for the type of crimp- when loading swaged, hollow base wadcutters (commercially produced - not cast by me); I used a taper crimp.
ALL other revolver loads get a roll crimp.

Seating and Crimping - After decades worth of reloading, I can say with absolute confidence that I will never go back to seating & crimping in one operation.
I seat in one operation and crimp in a separate operation and the extra step is worth it. Yes, it's a tad bit more work but it makes your life so much easier in the long run. When using a progressive press it is a total non-issue and when using a single stage press it eliminates a lot of headaches.

Seating depth - when using bullets that have a crimp groove, seat to the crimp groove - DONE. It amazes me the amount of consideration, worry, hand-wringing and contemplation some people exert on the subject of seating depth. There are so many other variables that deserve attention; take this one out of the mix. When loading for rimless pistol cartridges such as the 9mmor 45 ACP, seating depth is an important issue. When loading for revolver cartridges and someone has graciously provided you with a bullet that has a crimp groove - just use the crimp groove and be thankful that issue has been solved for you.

I can't recall the last time I trimmed brass for a handgun cartridge. Yes, differences in the length of the casing will affect a roll crimp more than a taper crimp but I haven't found the effect to be significant. I have on occasion gone to great pains to produce incredibly consistent handgun cartridges in a quest for accuracy. There are diminishing returns for those types of efforts. Do as you see fit.

Life of the casing - roll vs. taper crimp. A taper crimp may help extend the number of reloading cycles of a casing BUT I suspect it isn't enough to really matter. Even using a roll crimp, I get dozens of cycles out of 38 Special brass before the mouth of the case splits. The majority of my loadings are standard pressure and that may play a bigger role than the type of crimp. A roll crimp does work the brass more than a taper crimp but a moderate (as opposed to heavy) roll crimp minimizes that stress.

Expanders - The type of expander used plays a bigger role when loading cast bullets than when loading jacketed bullets.
When loading cast bullets, a Lyman "M" type expander with the "step" incorporated into the expander (or any of the similar designs) will be far more cast bullet friendly than a typical expander that just flares the case mouth. There are several different sources for these types of expanders, including some powder through expanders. Because the brass will "spring back" a little after being expanded, typically an expander that is close to the bullet diameter will still provide proper bullet tension even before crimping.
That "step" as opposed to a simple flare at the case mouth makes seating cast bullets way, way, WAY easier.
I also believe that the "step" type ("M" style) expander works the brass less than a flare.

[toallmy]

The expanders on progressive dies seem to be made for J work bullets. I had Buckshot make an oversize expander for cast bullets.
So yes, I do use expanders. Does anyone commercially produce oversize expanders for Dillon??

Shiloh

I believe some members had lathsmith make them a custom powder through expander die for Dillon loading .

[Mk42gunner]

Since I retired and don't need to load x number of hundreds of rounds in an evening, I have moved back to using singlestage presses. I also use an expander, typically a Lyman M-die.

I also seat and crimp in one step, it is only a mechanical adjustment after all.

Your Hornady "garbage die" probably roll crimps, so buy a taper crimp die.

Robert

[dverna]

When I think of the thousands of rounds I loaded on a Star with crimp/seat with one die, I wonder how I ever made it work.

But somehow, back in the dark ages, it did. Life was easier then. I only loaded two bullets HBWC and H&G 50.

[mattw]

My 357/38 Special die set included the following size/deprime die. M-step expander die, seating die with various stems set so low as to never crimp and finally a roll, taper and FCD. This is my most complete die set and there were others before. I have chosen the roll die for example to provide the roll that I want, same for the taper die.

Why, I shoot 357 in revolvers, levers, single shots and autoloaders. Most want a little something different with cast bullets.

[DougGuy]

I always use a roll crimp for a rimmed pistol cartridge. I guess you could get away with a taper crimp if 1. boolits are loaded for target velocity i.e. mousefarts 2. boolits are not heavy for caliber.

I prefer to seat and crimp in separate operations.

[Win94ae]

I used an expander die on my 30-30 cases just a few days ago.

I have no problems with the seating, and crimping die.