Wisest.fool
04-23-2020, 04:39 AM
Thought i would share the results of my experiment with the lee 309-200. maybe it will help someone
Purpose: The purpose of this experiment was to see if i could get 1 MOA from a rifle with cast boolits(powdercoated gas checked). I am pleased to say I have succeeded. Previously I have only cast for pistols/revolvers and the fastest I sent any bullets was 1500 out of a powdercoated 454 casull. Since I had no leading with that, I thought I would see if what I read here about rifle bullets being able to be thrown faster with powdercoating than with traditional lube was correct (trust but verify). Also I wanted 1 MOA to be satisfied that this was worth it. I picked a 200gn bullet with the thought that if the test fails and I end up with a mold that I cannot shoot fast at least it will get there with a lot of energy and if its 1 MOA accurate I will trust it to take a deer.
Equipment:
Ruger precision rifle .308
lead sled
crappy nikon scope good enough for 50m (yes it will be replaced soon)
lee SS press
dillon .308 dies
lee case neck expander die
lee push through 309 sizer
sage outdoors 30 caliber .17 thick gas checks
COWW with 2% tin added water quenched and water dropped after powder coating for 1 hr to heat treat(i do not have a BHN tester so i know they are hard but not how hard) they chime when struck together
smokes raspberry powder coat
FC 308 brass once fired
CCI LRP
IMR 4895 powder
Process:
bullets were cast from lee production pot 4 into lee 309-200-r fairly hot needed to be hot to get them to fill correctly they came out .3095 at the base where they engage the rifling.
barrel of rifle was slugged with .311 round soft lead ball and came out .308 in the grooves
bullets were dropped from mold into 5 gal bucket of ice water
seated gas checks with no lube once dry and quality control passed (discarded any with any imperfections no matter how small)
powder coated at 425 for 1 hr and again dropped into ice water
sized again
cases were sized
trimmed to 2.005 if they were over 2.015
primed with CCI LRP
necks were expanded slightly with lee neck expander die so no lead was shaved when seated
powder was measured in 5 shot groups going up .5 gn from 31gn to 40.5 gn IMR 4895 with rcbs auto powder measure and powder trickler. (40.5gn being the max load for a jacketed 200gn bullet in my lyman 49th edition at 2300ish FPS and 59000 PSI)
seated to 2.60 OAL (this had the bullet seated deeper than the crimp groove will explain more later)
very light crimp to un-expand the neck and hold bullets.
fired in 5 shot group from 31gn to 38gn @ 50m(stopped at 38 gn due to pressure signs)
shots were recorded on magnetospeed chronograph on standard sensitivity.(the gas checks seemed to register just fine)
after every 5 shots the barrel was inspected for signs of leading
each 5 shot group was shot at a new target and targets were retrieved every 20 shots.
Observations:
-without powdercoating the bullet sat perfectly in the lands of the rifling barely marking the bullets
-with powdercoating the lands slightly engraved the bullet making it hard to chamber a round.
-seating the bullets deeper allowed the rounds to chamber without too much difficulty, however the rounds were definitely all engaged with the rifling once powder coated. since i was starting so far down the powder scale i accepted some risk in the chance of over pressure from already engaging the rifling. As the rounds were fired careful attention was paid to how difficult it was to extract rounds and what the primers looked like.
-no key-holing of any rounds was apparent.
- no rounds were recovered ( not feasible at this range although i will try this in the future to see if the bullet expands at all or fragments and how the rifling looks on the fired bullet)
- no leading was observed throughout the test, however at the higher end some powder coat dust was observed in the barrel.
- ruger precision rifles have 5R rifling. which is supposed to be not ideal for lead bullets, however this did not seem to be much of an issue.
- Standard Deviation (SD) was higher in lead bullets than i observed in jacketed bullets
RESULTS:
31gn - avg 1787fps - 45 SD ----- third most accurate group with ~1.4 MOA. lost data on one round due to chrono setup issue
31.5gn - avg 1847 FPS - 3 SD
32gn - avg 1911 FPS - 33 SD
32.5gn - avg 1920 FPS - 13 SD
33gn - avg 1947 FPS - 11 SD
33.5gn - avg 1970 FPS - 16 SD
34gn - avg 1999 FPS - 38 SD ----- most accurate group with 1 MOA
34.5gn - avg 2034 FPS - 13 SD
35gn - avg 2123 FPS - 45 SD
35.5gn - avg 2156 FPS - 46 SD
36gn - avg 2180 FPS - 50 SD
36.5gn - avg 2231 FPS - 41 SD
37gn - avg 2284 FPS - 42 SD - 2nd most accurate group with 1.25 MOA
37.5gn - avg 2290 - 14 SD
38gn - 2 shots fired. both were hard to open the action. primers were not flattened but test was aborted. This was as far as i expected to get anyway with max loads for jacketed bullets being 2300 as well.
Conclusions:
-yes it is possible to get fairly accurate(1MOA) with powdercoated gas checked cast boolits. the people on this forum know what they are talking about.
-More testing is needed to determine the failure velocity of powdercoating bullets. Most likely i will need to get a lighter bullet mold somewhere 120-150gn to get at least 2500FPS to see some leading.
- the weakest part of repeatability/accuracy on this test was probably human error(trigger squeeze/sight picture)
-i have a new (cheap at ~$.27/rnd since i got the brass and lead for free) round to load.
-Lead bullets will show signs of pressure at the same velocity as similar weight jacket round data. Only 1 data point right now so not proven, but it makes sense.
-lead bullets move faster out of the barrel than similarly weighted jacketed rounds with the same powder charge.
- i should probably get a BHN tester and see what harness these bullets are. I would be willing to send some to be tested if someone was curious enough to check them for me.....
- I will need to make some hardball alloy/softer alloy and try again to see if there is a difference.
Questions:
- Why are some of the groups SD under 20 and the others around 50. some part of my reloading must have changed slightly i think.
- What do you think of my experiment and how could I improve?
- Has anyone else done anything like this?
- has anyone figured out how to powder coat the base and not the tip of the round? this would let me keep the perfect size of the nose of this bullet(unpowdercoated) without having the powder coat engage rifling when chambered.
- I load mostly with IMR/hodgdon powders since that's what I can get my hands on. But is there a better powder for cast rifle reloading? Or for that matter cast pistol.
--rifle(imr 4895 or h4895)
--300BO/454 casull IMR 4227
--pistol titegroup/cfe pistol
Purpose: The purpose of this experiment was to see if i could get 1 MOA from a rifle with cast boolits(powdercoated gas checked). I am pleased to say I have succeeded. Previously I have only cast for pistols/revolvers and the fastest I sent any bullets was 1500 out of a powdercoated 454 casull. Since I had no leading with that, I thought I would see if what I read here about rifle bullets being able to be thrown faster with powdercoating than with traditional lube was correct (trust but verify). Also I wanted 1 MOA to be satisfied that this was worth it. I picked a 200gn bullet with the thought that if the test fails and I end up with a mold that I cannot shoot fast at least it will get there with a lot of energy and if its 1 MOA accurate I will trust it to take a deer.
Equipment:
Ruger precision rifle .308
lead sled
crappy nikon scope good enough for 50m (yes it will be replaced soon)
lee SS press
dillon .308 dies
lee case neck expander die
lee push through 309 sizer
sage outdoors 30 caliber .17 thick gas checks
COWW with 2% tin added water quenched and water dropped after powder coating for 1 hr to heat treat(i do not have a BHN tester so i know they are hard but not how hard) they chime when struck together
smokes raspberry powder coat
FC 308 brass once fired
CCI LRP
IMR 4895 powder
Process:
bullets were cast from lee production pot 4 into lee 309-200-r fairly hot needed to be hot to get them to fill correctly they came out .3095 at the base where they engage the rifling.
barrel of rifle was slugged with .311 round soft lead ball and came out .308 in the grooves
bullets were dropped from mold into 5 gal bucket of ice water
seated gas checks with no lube once dry and quality control passed (discarded any with any imperfections no matter how small)
powder coated at 425 for 1 hr and again dropped into ice water
sized again
cases were sized
trimmed to 2.005 if they were over 2.015
primed with CCI LRP
necks were expanded slightly with lee neck expander die so no lead was shaved when seated
powder was measured in 5 shot groups going up .5 gn from 31gn to 40.5 gn IMR 4895 with rcbs auto powder measure and powder trickler. (40.5gn being the max load for a jacketed 200gn bullet in my lyman 49th edition at 2300ish FPS and 59000 PSI)
seated to 2.60 OAL (this had the bullet seated deeper than the crimp groove will explain more later)
very light crimp to un-expand the neck and hold bullets.
fired in 5 shot group from 31gn to 38gn @ 50m(stopped at 38 gn due to pressure signs)
shots were recorded on magnetospeed chronograph on standard sensitivity.(the gas checks seemed to register just fine)
after every 5 shots the barrel was inspected for signs of leading
each 5 shot group was shot at a new target and targets were retrieved every 20 shots.
Observations:
-without powdercoating the bullet sat perfectly in the lands of the rifling barely marking the bullets
-with powdercoating the lands slightly engraved the bullet making it hard to chamber a round.
-seating the bullets deeper allowed the rounds to chamber without too much difficulty, however the rounds were definitely all engaged with the rifling once powder coated. since i was starting so far down the powder scale i accepted some risk in the chance of over pressure from already engaging the rifling. As the rounds were fired careful attention was paid to how difficult it was to extract rounds and what the primers looked like.
-no key-holing of any rounds was apparent.
- no rounds were recovered ( not feasible at this range although i will try this in the future to see if the bullet expands at all or fragments and how the rifling looks on the fired bullet)
- no leading was observed throughout the test, however at the higher end some powder coat dust was observed in the barrel.
- ruger precision rifles have 5R rifling. which is supposed to be not ideal for lead bullets, however this did not seem to be much of an issue.
- Standard Deviation (SD) was higher in lead bullets than i observed in jacketed bullets
RESULTS:
31gn - avg 1787fps - 45 SD ----- third most accurate group with ~1.4 MOA. lost data on one round due to chrono setup issue
31.5gn - avg 1847 FPS - 3 SD
32gn - avg 1911 FPS - 33 SD
32.5gn - avg 1920 FPS - 13 SD
33gn - avg 1947 FPS - 11 SD
33.5gn - avg 1970 FPS - 16 SD
34gn - avg 1999 FPS - 38 SD ----- most accurate group with 1 MOA
34.5gn - avg 2034 FPS - 13 SD
35gn - avg 2123 FPS - 45 SD
35.5gn - avg 2156 FPS - 46 SD
36gn - avg 2180 FPS - 50 SD
36.5gn - avg 2231 FPS - 41 SD
37gn - avg 2284 FPS - 42 SD - 2nd most accurate group with 1.25 MOA
37.5gn - avg 2290 - 14 SD
38gn - 2 shots fired. both were hard to open the action. primers were not flattened but test was aborted. This was as far as i expected to get anyway with max loads for jacketed bullets being 2300 as well.
Conclusions:
-yes it is possible to get fairly accurate(1MOA) with powdercoated gas checked cast boolits. the people on this forum know what they are talking about.
-More testing is needed to determine the failure velocity of powdercoating bullets. Most likely i will need to get a lighter bullet mold somewhere 120-150gn to get at least 2500FPS to see some leading.
- the weakest part of repeatability/accuracy on this test was probably human error(trigger squeeze/sight picture)
-i have a new (cheap at ~$.27/rnd since i got the brass and lead for free) round to load.
-Lead bullets will show signs of pressure at the same velocity as similar weight jacket round data. Only 1 data point right now so not proven, but it makes sense.
-lead bullets move faster out of the barrel than similarly weighted jacketed rounds with the same powder charge.
- i should probably get a BHN tester and see what harness these bullets are. I would be willing to send some to be tested if someone was curious enough to check them for me.....
- I will need to make some hardball alloy/softer alloy and try again to see if there is a difference.
Questions:
- Why are some of the groups SD under 20 and the others around 50. some part of my reloading must have changed slightly i think.
- What do you think of my experiment and how could I improve?
- Has anyone else done anything like this?
- has anyone figured out how to powder coat the base and not the tip of the round? this would let me keep the perfect size of the nose of this bullet(unpowdercoated) without having the powder coat engage rifling when chambered.
- I load mostly with IMR/hodgdon powders since that's what I can get my hands on. But is there a better powder for cast rifle reloading? Or for that matter cast pistol.
--rifle(imr 4895 or h4895)
--300BO/454 casull IMR 4227
--pistol titegroup/cfe pistol