Barrel Fouling: Lube or Antimony?

[kcofohio]

So I've been reloading for 8-9 years now. Early on when I reloaded cast in 38 Spl. or 380 Auto, I would sometimes get what I thought was leading. Usually it was just past the throat of the barrel. Copper Chore Boy became my friend. I never had any issues with 357, 45 Auto, or 40 S&W using cast bullets. Very few times in 9mm. Most of these bullets were advertised at 18 bhn.
Then one time I'm using a piece of scrap brass, not brass case, that I ground to a point and a magnifier. I scrape some of fouling out of the rifling. It was packed in the rifling, and would crumble as I scraped it. There was very little lead in the crud. So I came to the conclusion that it must be lube fouling. If I used a slower burning powder, say Silhouette instead of HP-38, and upper load data, I had little to no fouling. So that lead me to believe that the slower burn rate burned up more of the lube.
Now the other day I was reading someones thread on another gun forum and there was a discussion of hardness. A member posted about antimony wash. About the bullet having too much antimony.
And now I loaded up some 200 gr. cast, 95-3-2, using WST powder. These are softer than what I had used before. I had my daughter at the range with me, so I was only able to shoot off 5 rounds. I looked later and seen I have the same fouling as I did in early years.
So could this be what was called antimony wash?
BTW, I'm using Lee's alox lube.

[WHITETAIL]

I think it is a lube problem.
But I could be wrong.
I would mix JPW with the
Alox and try some of that.:coffeecom

[sutherpride59]

I’ve been casting and shooting for only about 3 years now but I’ve read every sticky on this forum and if the antimony wash was a common occurrence I would imagine it surely would have been in one of those stickies. I would venture to guess that it’s still leading and just a matter of boolit fit. Since I started lubing my own with a lubrisizer I haven’t had an leading of any sort. LLA is great for low power stuff but for anything interesting or near full power with any caliber I would just stick to a traditional soft lube. If you want to test you can try to collect more of the fouling and see if it melts easily, antimony requires more heat to melt than lead or tin.

[kungfustyle]

Do you clean your guns after a trip to the range? Antimony/leading won't come off with just a few passes of a brush. If you are using a commercial boolit maker, the lead is probably to hard for the lower end applications, ie 38 special, however, they will work fine at 357 loads. Lead becomes like a marshmallow at the right pressure/speed/lead hardness and fills the forcing cone and rifling. From ingot to target is a good read, maybe start there. Hope that helps. http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[vagrantviking]

Clean it up well and try bullets with a different lube. Maybe a dry lube or one that's wax based instead of alox. That should give some insight into what the cause is.

[sutherpride59]

Or you could pc as a cheap solution, realistically there are two types of casters. There are those who PC(or epoxy coat) and those that bought a lubesizer and are too invested to start down the PC rabbit hole lol. I’m the later.

[kcofohio]

I think it is a lube problem.
But I could be wrong.
I would mix JPW with the
Alox and try some of that.:coffeecom
I will have to get some more alox, I have the paste wax. :)


I’ve been casting and shooting for only about 3 years now but I’ve read every sticky on this forum and if the antimony wash was a common occurrence I would imagine it surely would have been in one of those stickies. I would venture to guess that it’s still leading and just a matter of boolit fit. Since I started lubing my own with a lubrisizer I haven’t had an leading of any sort. LLA is great for low power stuff but for anything interesting or near full power with any caliber I would just stick to a traditional soft lube. If you want to test you can try to collect more of the fouling and see if it melts easily, antimony requires more heat to melt than lead or tin.
Yeah, I had never read here or anywhere else about antimony wash. I thought maybe I missed that class.
I doubt I could get enough of the fouling collected to try in the pot. But if I can, I will do that.


Do you clean your guns after a trip to the range? Antimony/leading won't come off with just a few passes of a brush. If you are using a commercial boolit maker, the lead is probably to hard for the lower end applications, ie 38 special, however, they will work fine at 357 loads. Lead becomes like a marshmallow at the right pressure/speed/lead hardness and fills the forcing cone and rifling. From ingot to target is a good read, maybe start there. Hope that helps. http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm
Thanks, I have read, and still go back to read that link. I know I still have much to learn. Much to learn...
I should be at about 11-12 bhn. But I worked up some loads using AA#5. I'm hoping that shows a difference.
The barrel was clean before, I still need to clean now. I will see how hard it is to remove the fouling.

Clean it up well and try bullets with a different lube. Maybe a dry lube or one that's wax based instead of alox. That should give some insight into what the cause is.
After reading the above link, Chapter 5 for bullet lubes. He made me remember that a guy at our church has bee hives. I will see if and when he may have some leftover wax.

[kcofohio]

Or you could pc as a cheap solution, realistically there are two types of casters. There are those who PC(or epoxy coat) and those that bought a lubesizer and are too invested to start down the PC rabbit hole lol. I’m the later.

Before all this quarantine started, I was reading up on the PC and had honed in on using Hi-Tek powdered coating. Once things get back to a little normal, I plan to invest in an oven. :)

[Taterhead]

Before all this quarantine started, I was reading up on the PC and had honed in on using Hi-Tek powdered coating. Once things get back to a little normal, I plan to invest in an oven. :)

Keep your eye on Craigslist. I found a nice large Oster convection oven, like new for a steal. I think the beta boy leftist (as evident by his proud collection of bumper stickers) that sold it to me would likely have been offended to know that it was to be used for ammo production.

[jsizemore]

This should explain the issues with antimony.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218651-Anyone-have-pics-of-Antimony-wash

I don't believe your alloy is your problem. Bullet fit and/or lube composition is where I'd look.

[44MAG#1]

My first question would be is, Is it causing a problem or a constructive problem? If it wasn't causing a problem I would just keep on keeping on with my casting, lubing and shooting.
My late Mother used to call it "making a mountain out of a mole hill."
Please don't take this as a condescending or smart aleck post. It is not meant that way.
I've been warned some of my posts seem to be condescending and of a smart aleck nature.
If you want me to delete my post I will.

[kcofohio]

Keep your eye on Craigslist. I found a nice large Oster convection oven, like new for a steal. I think the beta boy leftist (as evident by his proud collection of bumper stickers) that sold it to me would likely have been offended to know that it was to be used for ammo production.

Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't looked there. :)

[kcofohio]

This should explain the issues with antimony.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218651-Anyone-have-pics-of-Antimony-wash

I don't believe your alloy is your problem. Bullet fit and/or lube composition is where I'd look.

Thank you for the reference. Looking at the links, I don't believe I'm having the same problem. I will try some other type of lube or mixture.


My first question would be is, Is it causing a problem or a constructive problem? If it wasn't causing a problem I would just keep on keeping on with my casting, lubing and shooting.
My late Mother used to call it "making a mountain out of a mole hill."
Please don't take this as a condescending or smart aleck post. It is not meant that way.
I've been warned some of my posts seem to be condescending and of a smart aleck nature.
If you want me to delete my post I will.

Naw, I didn't take it as that. To be truthful, in times, the fouling never got worse as I shot. Just a pain to clear out. That is where chore boy comes in. :)

[AggieEE]

I didn't see it in the OP. Was the barrel slugged for size and compared to bullet dia? With the slower powder the bullet may not be upsetting enough to seal and gas cutting was putting flakes of lead in the barrel. Faster powder faster pressure rise.

[jsizemore]

I don't know if your alloy is certified, XRF tested or a general guesstimate as to composition. I operate mostly by guesstimate and had to learn that my COWW alloy wasn't quite up to the 3% that was commonly believed. When I added 2.75% tin trying to keep the antimony and tin balanced, I ended up with patchy spots on the bullets surface. I cut the tin to 2% and all is good and has been for years. I also discovered that my alloy didn't obturate enough with the pressure I was running. I cut my alloy with an equal amount of 99%+ lead and my obturation was now complete with no leading even on the trailing edge of the lands. That Carnuba Red lube did it's job even at the lower pressures of my 45acp. Maybe none of my experience helps. If it does great. Good Luck!

[kcofohio]

I didn't see it in the OP. Was the barrel slugged for size and compared to bullet dia? With the slower powder the bullet may not be upsetting enough to seal and gas cutting was putting flakes of lead in the barrel. Faster powder faster pressure rise.

No ,I hadn't slugged the barrel yet. The bullets are dropping at .4535" and I don't have a bullet sizing die yet. I shot loads with WST, so it is about the fastest powder I have. But they were the at the bottom rung of the load ladder. 4.4 gr. of WST with a cartridge OAL of 1.125" and 200 gr. of lead.

[kcofohio]

I don't know if your alloy is certified, XRF tested or a general guesstimate as to composition. I operate mostly by guesstimate and had to learn that my COWW alloy wasn't quite up to the 3% that was commonly believed. When I added 2.75% tin trying to keep the antimony and tin balanced, I ended up with patchy spots on the bullets surface. I cut the tin to 2% and all is good and has been for years. I also discovered that my alloy didn't obturate enough with the pressure I was running. I cut my alloy with an equal amount of 99%+ lead and my obturation was now complete with no leading even on the trailing edge of the lands. That Carnuba Red lube did it's job even at the lower pressures of my 45acp. Maybe none of my experience helps. If it does great. Good Luck!

Yes, I am assuming of the lead hardness. I used almost 100 lb. of lead with 10 lb. of super-hard from Roto-metals and about 2 lb. of tin. I still have 20 lb. of pure lead, maybe I will add some to a pot and cast some more for a test.

[kcofohio]

I didn't see it in the OP. Was the barrel slugged for size and compared to bullet dia? With the slower powder the bullet may not be upsetting enough to seal and gas cutting was putting flakes of lead in the barrel. Faster powder faster pressure rise.

I slugged the barrel this morning. I got right at .451" with micrometers and my cast are dropping at .453".

Edit: At this time I don't have a sizer. I will get one on order.

[popper]

Sb wash is more like a cad or zink plating, just dull streaks. Sb's higher melt temp allows it to form on the outside of the cast bullet and as it is 'crumbly', it flakes off. If lead oxide in with the lube, test by burning the 'junk' - lube burns off and leaves lead 'balls'. Just clean the barrel (brush) and don't worry about it. Real leading leaves strips of shiny lead in the grooves and chunks on the lands. Removed by copper brillo strands. Or GC bases.
Assume this is 45acp with light load of WST and 'hardball' alloy. Little oversized so get some 'cutting' that ends up near the throat. Had the same problem with 40sw when I started casting. Not gas cutting as normal but fast powder pressure 'pulverizes' some of the base before it gets into the bore and dumps just past the throat. Next round adds some and 'irons' the stuff into the barrel.

[kcofohio]

Sb wash is more like a cad or zink plating, just dull streaks. Sb's higher melt temp allows it to form on the outside of the cast bullet and as it is 'crumbly', it flakes off. If lead oxide in with the lube, test by burning the 'junk' - lube burns off and leaves lead 'balls'. Just clean the barrel (brush) and don't worry about it. Real leading leaves strips of shiny lead in the grooves and chunks on the lands. Removed by copper brillo strands. Or GC bases.
Assume this is 45acp with light load of WST and 'hardball' alloy. Little oversized so get some 'cutting' that ends up near the throat. Had the same problem with 40sw when I started casting. Not gas cutting as normal but fast powder pressure 'pulverizes' some of the base before it gets into the bore and dumps just past the throat. Next round adds some and 'irons' the stuff into the barrel.

That makes a lot of sense. Thank you!