play or pay?? How do you feel about it.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im catholic and were taught that either you believe in Jesus Christ and live as he taught or you go to hell. Not much in-between. Ive got a neighbor who is also probably my best friend or tied for that honor anyway that died of a stroke at 65 years old last Friday. It about crushed me. he was working on a gun for me just hours before it happened. Hes probably the best man ive ever met. He is well liked and respected in town. He one that can fix or fabricate ANYTHING and has helped probably half the people in town at one time or another. He would give you the shirt off his back. In actions hes more Christian then ill ever be and more then 99 percent of the people I see walking out of not just the catholic church but any church here. He was raised in a family that didn't go to church and other then weddings and funerals has never been in a church. Never talked with him much about God but heard him say a couple times that he believed in dust to dust. I believe in heaven and have to believe that if my God is a fair God that he is in heaven today. Does he go to hell and some sob who fooled around on his wife Saturday night but believes in Jesus and shows up at church come sunday gets in???? I know I will think of him every day when I walk out the door and look over at his garage. How do you stand on this subject.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Christian in belief here. Believe in God, follow the word (bible and son (Jesus's teachings)) of god, confess your sin using Jesus Christ and get dunked (baptized) try your best to live as bible instructs you. This is the only way, rest are ?? All you can do now is pray for the grace of God. If enough of Gods Children ask he may listen. But that's a gray area.

Read Mathew chapter 7.

May god send you comfort.

Theo

[augercreek]

Just going to Church on Sunday does not get you into Heaven. You have to have a close relationship with Jesus and when you do you'll be doing the things He would want you to do. We are all sinners and as being such we struggle to maintain our relationship, so each morning, first thing you get with that relationship by prayer and LISTENING. Prayer is not a one way deal you have to listen and ask for his help. All day keeping Jesus in your mind is at times hard but by doing it , it comes easier. God answers ALL prayers, it's up to us to listen and accept what He says, it maybe yes or no or not yet but for sure He answers ! LISTEN !!!! You must believe that Jesus died for YOUR sins, and your saved, not by what you've done or can do will get you to heaven. It's by faith and the grace of God that we get there.

[Jeff Michel]

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than standing in your garage make you an automobile. Sounds like a stand up guy, you were lucky to have known him.

[crappie-hunter]

Mankind's opinion, and feelings don't count, it's only what God thinks that counts. I only know what the scripture teaches. Read John chapter 3 ,you will find the answer there.

[Boaz]

Lloyd I'll start out saying this thread would be served better on the 'theological' forum . It's a divisive topic to many .

I have been in your situation many times . I have known many that lead 'decent' lives but did not believe in GOD . Some are adamant atheists , some are just quiet nonbelievers . Like you I like to think there may be redemption even for them somehow . But GOD's word is specific in it's main requirement to achieve salvation is FAITH .

As far as the hypocritical 'believer' that says one thing and does another there is redemption of sin through admission and GOD's forgiveness . This is the only verse I'll put up here , I'll not get into a 'scripture' war . Revelation 3:16
So I will spit you out of my mouth, because you are only warm and not hot or cold.

GOD always forgives if they ask for forgiveness and rectify their failure . We believe in a merciful , loving GOD who forgives knowing that we are all sinners . Through his grace we are saved .

Through his word , through his teaching , through his death on the cross we receive the offer of salvation based on our faith in him . You cannot achieve salvation by just trying to live a 'decent' life refusing to have faith .

You use the word 'fair' in describing GOD's judgement . GOD is not fair ...GOD is 'just' . Through his word we are taught and given to 'believe' and have 'faith' in him . He also gives us the choice to believe or not . It's a choice given that we all have to make . The result of that choice is more than clear in his word .

[GhostHawk]

A I believe we will all be face to face with our Creator one day. And we will have to answer for things we have done, and left undone.

Personally I do not think you have to be a member of a church to live as a Christian.
I suspect your friend was a very good man, and helped a lot of people.

None of us can know for sure until we pass through that door ourself.
But I do not see him in hell. And I tend to not pay a whole lot of attention to theology, which is like it or not thought up, written and put forward by man.

You can make a case for devine inspiration in some cases, but even then how can we know what was left out that was intended to be in. Or what was added to which totally changed the way it comes across.

The example I like to use, way way back when the Jews were told "thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mothers milk"

Over 2000 + years that one line has been expanded to a large 4" thick book of kosher rules and regulations.

But the important message was "Don't boil a baby goat/sheep in its own mothers milk" that is cruel to both.

And the Lord and I have had some big arguements over Pork. What lived in the swamps back then was unclean.
And bears absolutely no resemblence to a modern pork facility where animals are kept clean, disease and parasite free. Inspected after they are slaughtered.

There is no comparison. And to be honest, I'm not convinced I have actually won this argument. But I think he is thinking about it and looking at it with new eyes.

And for a final thought, many Christians would like to think it is Heaven or hell. No where in between.

What about the Native American's "Happy Hunting ground"? Or the Pagan's "Summerland" both of which are places where there is no pain, where food is readily available, there is no harsh weather. We have time for thought, to reconsider paths we could/should have chosen.

I don't necessarily believe it is Heaven or Hell with no alternatives. That may make me odd. So be it.

But I hope that thought might bring you comfort in days to come.

[toallmy]

I most certainly hope the Good Lord is very forgiving .

[dverna]

Lloyd, first, not many have a friend like that, or are deserving of them. You were both lucky! Very sorry for your loss.

I struggle with God being fair or just. We are bombarded with that concept...but, actions speak louder than words.

Simple examples:

God brought the Flood onto the earth. He saved a handful of people and murdered the rest. It is a stretch to believe everyone else was so sinful they deserved to die. But say every man and woman was so evil they should die....did all the newborn babies and unborn children in their mothers wombs deserve to die? God could have saved them if He wanted to. Of course, the argument will be He saved them by giving them a pass into heaven but it was still murder at His hands.

Apply the same thinking to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

So, my conclusion is that God has demonstrated He is not always fair and just. He can let His anger control His decisions. He is not perfect. That will not be palatable to 98% of Christians as it shakes the foundation of their faith and what they want to believe.

No one can tell you the fate of your good friend. If your friend is not in heaven when you get there, you will have your answer. Death comes soon enough...so hold the good memories of him to your heart and do not try to answer questions that only God can answer. Scripture should be questioned with a critical mind...which you have. I am with Ghosthawk on the inerrancy of the Bible and how anything man has touched may lack "Devine inspiration". If it such a perfect and simple book, why do we have 100's of Christian sects? If a passage gives you comfort, cling to it. Nothing is lost in doing so.

[Pine Baron]

I'm afraid this thread is rapidly digressing out of the Chapel.
In the spirit of the intent of the Chapel:
I offer sincere condolences on the loss of your friend. May God bring comfort and peace to family and friends in Jesus name. Amen.

[Boaz]

I agree , should be in 'theology' .

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess what gets me is that theres MANY segments of mankind that don't believe in Jesus from African tribes to the whole Jewish religion. There are thousands of people that don't believe because of fault of the parents not believing and not teaching. I would have to think that if its really mandatory God would lead them to the path so they would at least have a chance.

As to going to church. I wasn't saying you had to go to church to be a Christian. That said it does say in the bible that you MUST keep the sabbath holy so if sunday or the day you consider the sabbath is just another day or the day you watch football you sure aren't following the bible either. Bottom line too (and some have a problem getting a grasp on this) is that you can memorize the bible back to front and spend 3 hours a day reading it and unless you actually follow it and act in the manner Jesus tells us in it you just a hypocrite. A man that goes to church on sunday, listens to what the pastor teaches and goes home and put it into practice and never picks up a bible is a much better Christian that the guy who memorizes it to pretend to be a bible scholar on an internet fourm or at bible study Thursday night.

Bottom line is theres probably as many Christian hypocrites in the world as there are atheists and if we look at what God demands of us very few are going to pass the test at the gates. Some say you just have to believe. I say to believe you have to live your life helping others. My neighbor did just that. He did more Christian acts in one year then ive done in my life. Personaly I think that if he didn't get in im in big trouble!! Id bet I can take any one of you here that claim to believe in Jesus Christ and the bible and use that bible to show that you ignore or twist the exact words in it. Bottom line is as long as theres a hungry person in the world and we have extra food in the fridge we are not following what Jesus told us we MUST do.

So in fact Boaz we are all luck warm at best. We claim to believe but ignore whats inconvenient to follow. Anyone can say the words. Anyone can stand up and scream at the top of there lungs "I BELIEVE" But those are just words. Look at how many people that can quote scripture and verse (even priests and pastors) that molest, fool around on there wives, are homosexual ect ect. Some of them really believe in Jesus. Are they any better then my buddy who never was introduce to Jesus by his parents but was a great father grandfather and neighbor. One thing he wasn't was a hypocrite. I kind of chuckle. Im a catholic and go to catholic church every sunday. That said I don't believe EVERYTHING the catholic church teaches.

I believe the bible is an instruction book that shows us what some men got from the teachings of Jesus. A guide to living your life. I don't believe GOD wrote it. A monk wrote it from scirptures that deciples (men) wrote. Now some including my ma think that that is unexpectable and will send me to hell. I don't go to confession. I believe I can confess all by myself to God without a priest. To you protestants. I believe in holy communion. the bibles says quoting the exact words of Jesus. take the bread it IS my body and drink this wine it IS my blood. No mention of representing anything. IT IS. Now you ignore that so do you really believe in the WORD of Jesus? Not trying to stir up a fight but a lot of this is MANS interpretations. LOTS of it is using the bible to judge others. Something Jesus said is only his fathers job. But spit out the luke warm??? There was only ONE that was not luke warm and that's Jesus Christ. Its sure not my place to say someone is cold or luke warm. We wont really know what Gods criteria really is for getting through those pearly gates till were the one being judged. Me? I hope God is FAIR and understands that ALL of us are lacking. That he loves us, ALL of us and isn't so vain that he puts more store in you praising him then you helping his other children. Kind of like a parent. As a parent I care much more about how you treat my children as I do how you treat me. But I guess I don't really have a clue. None of us can begin to comprehend how God thinks. No book will teach you that. By the way if this doesn't belong here feel free to move it to where its does belong.
Lloyd I'll start out saying this thread would be served better on the 'theological' forum . It's a divisive topic to many .

I have been in your situation many times . I have known many that lead 'decent' lives but did not believe in GOD . Some are adamant atheists , some are just quiet nonbelievers . Like you I like to think there may be redemption even for them somehow . But GOD's word is specific in it's main requirement to achieve salvation is FAITH .

As far as the hypocritical 'believer' that says one thing and does another there is redemption of sin through admission and GOD's forgiveness . This is the only verse I'll put up here , I'll not get into a 'scripture' war . Revelation 3:16
So I will spit you out of my mouth, because you are only warm and not hot or cold.

GOD always forgives if they ask for forgiveness and rectify their failure . We believe in a merciful , loving GOD who forgives knowing that we are all sinners . Through his grace we are saved .

Through his word , through his teaching , through his death on the cross we receive the offer of salvation based on our faith in him . You cannot achieve salvation by just trying to live a 'decent' life refusing to have faith .

You use the word 'fair' in describing GOD's judgement . GOD is not fair ...GOD is 'just' . Through his word we are taught and given to 'believe' and have 'faith' in him . He also gives us the choice to believe or not . It's a choice given that we all have to make . The result of that choice is more than clear in his word .

[Boaz]

I guess what gets me is that theres MANY segments of mankind that don't believe in Jesus from African tribes to the whole Jewish religion. There are thousands of people that don't believe because of fault of the parents not believing and not teaching. I would have to think that if its really mandatory God would lead them to the path so they would at least have a chance.

As to going to church. I wasn't saying you had to go to church to be a Christian. That said it does say in the bible that you MUST keep the sabbath holy so if sunday or the day you consider the sabbath is just another day or the day you watch football you sure aren't following the bible either. Bottom line too (and some have a problem getting a grasp on this) is that you can memorize the bible back to front and spend 3 hours a day reading it and unless you actually follow it and act in the manner Jesus tells us in it you just a hypocrite. A man that goes to church on sunday, listens to what the pastor teaches and goes home and put it into practice and never picks up a bible is a much better Christian that the guy who memorizes it to pretend to be a bible scholar on an internet fourm or at bible study Thursday night.

Bottom line is theres probably as many Christian hypocrites in the world as there are atheists and if we look at what God demands of us very few are going to pass the test at the gates. Some say you just have to believe. I say to believe you have to live your life helping others. My neighbor did just that. He did more Christian acts in one year then ive done in my life. Personaly I think that if he didn't get in im in big trouble!! Id bet I can take any one of you here that claim to believe in Jesus Christ and the bible and use that bible to show that you ignore or twist the exact words in it. Bottom line is as long as theres a hungry person in the world and we have extra food in the fridge we are not following what Jesus told us we MUST do.

So in fact Boaz we are all luck warm at best. We claim to believe but ignore whats inconvenient to follow. Anyone can say the words. Anyone can stand up and scream at the top of there lungs "I BELIEVE" But those are just words. Look at how many people that can quote scripture and verse (even priests and pastors) that molest, fool around on there wives, are homosexual ect ect. Some of them really believe in Jesus. Are they any better then my buddy who never was introduce to Jesus by his parents but was a great father grandfather and neighbor. One thing he wasn't was a hypocrite. I kind of chuckle. Im a catholic and go to catholic church every sunday. That said I don't believe EVERYTHING the catholic church teaches.

I believe the bible is an instruction book that shows us what some men got from the teachings of Jesus. A guide to living your life. I don't believe GOD wrote it. A monk wrote it from scirptures that deciples (men) wrote. Now some including my ma think that that is unexpectable and will send me to hell. I don't go to confession. I believe I can confess all by myself to God without a priest. To you protestants. I believe in holy communion. the bibles says quoting the exact words of Jesus. take the bread it IS my body and drink this wine it IS my blood. No mention of representing anything. IT IS. Now you ignore that so do you really believe in the WORD of Jesus? Not trying to stir up a fight but a lot of this is MANS interpretations. LOTS of it is using the bible to judge others. Something Jesus said is only his fathers job. But spit out the luke warm??? There was only ONE that was not luke warm and that's Jesus Christ. Its sure not my place to say someone is cold or luke warm. We wont really know what Gods criteria really is for getting through those pearly gates till were the one being judged. Me? I hope God is FAIR and understands that ALL of us are lacking. That he loves us, ALL of us and isn't so vain that he puts more store in you praising him then you helping his other children. Kind of like a parent. As a parent I care much more about how you treat my children as I do how you treat me. But I guess I don't really have a clue. None of us can begin to comprehend how God thinks. No book will teach you that. By the way if this doesn't belong here feel free to move it to where its does belong.


I'm not arguing Lloyd . I respect your ability and right to an opinion . But this is the wrong place to have this conversation . Copy and paste your opening post and put it on the Theology sub forum above , I have no doubt you will get much more response there .

[Blackwater]

These kinds of questions really have no answer we can know, or even be relatively assured of. However, Christ is always just, and we CAN have faith in that - consistently. We do not think like Christ does. We can't. He knows many, many things we cannot know. All we can do is learn from people like your friend. God uses the believer and the unbeliever to achieve His wondrous will. I used to ask questions like this pretty regularly, but nowadays, I'm quite content to leave it up to Christ and His perfect judgment.

We too often see Christ as this huge, judgmental entity that's just looking for someone to step out of line. But I've come to see Him as quite different - as one who does all He can to bring us to Him, and keep us there. He chastens us when we need it, and tests us to see how deeply our faith truly runs. But always, He's trying to make us grow and grow closer to Him, IF we'll but let Him, and see what His true purposes really are. Sometimes He lets us suffer, and even die, though we're devout and try hard to live by the rules He set for us. That's not a punishment! It's a release from this troubled, profane world, and a transition to the next - the Glory of Heaven. Mostly, we simply err in our thinking and values, that are NOT the same as Christ's. Christ's values and thinking is always consistent, and always aimed at improving us and our relationship with Him. But too often, we simply fail to see that. Mostly, I think, we're so caught up and focused in on getting things we want, and achieving things we want to achieve, that we forget just who's leading us, who made us, and enables us to do anything at all. His wisdom is SO much larger and more perfect than ours, it's a shame really to use the same word to describe both. Christ is the center of ALL wisdom, and if we are perplexed, we need to reassess the angle we're looking at the matter from. Usually, I think we'll find that the shortcoming is within US, rather than Christ. He just don't make no mistakes!

[Lloyd Smale]

very well said blackwater. You are right in that a lot of my feelings are selfish. He had a good life and a loving family and friends but NOTHING like the joys of heaven. Way to much of religion is mans vain attempts to tell other men what God thinks when NONE of us is even close to really comprehending what he thinks. We are ALL God children. What church you go to means nothing. Memorizing a book to impress others sure doesn't mean anything. I doubt there will be a bible knowledge test at the pearly gates. I think (at least hope) that a fair God looks at how you acted while you were on earth. How you treated others. That is the test. At the pearly gates you just get a score. I seriously doubt whether God cares if your Baptist or catholic or even jewish or a morman. Lots of keyboard commando bible scholars would be much better off putting that book down and spending the time you spend each day reading it actually helping some old lady or neighbor. That's what Jesus taught. Some seem to actually worship the bible. Its an instruction manual nothing more.

[Thundarstick]

If this where in the theology subforum, I would ask a few questions.

Here, I will say, may Holy God grant you peace in this matter, and give you contentment. I've pondered some of your same feelings when my close cousin killed the man who was cheating with his wife, then turned the gun to himself.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think in a case like that God is much more flexible then man interpretation of his rules are.
If this where in the theology subforum, I would ask a few questions.

Here, I will say, may Holy God grant you peace in this matter, and give you contentment. I've pondered some of your same feelings when my close cousin killed the man who was cheating with his wife, then turned the gun to himself.