Bases - Sprue Plate Indents reject or not?

[Barks_at_Wind]

Hi all, my wife just bought me my lifelong dream gun, an 1866 Winchester deluxe (24" octagonal) solid brass receiver, and to keep with the tradition I'm getting setup to cast and load with black powder and self-cast boolits. I'll post some pics of the gun in another thread, once I get some rounds assembled.

I've been casting all weekend, tossing back pretty much everything that I cast at this point, accepting that its just gonna take me some practice to get right. But my last session turned out some pretty decent boolits, no wrinkles, lube grooves sharp, most bases sharp. But in the center of the boolits it seems I just can't shake some marring where the sprue plate snaps off from the mold after cooling. Below is my detailed method specs and a picture for reference:

Caliber: 44-40
Lead: Rotometals 1:40
Boolit Mold: Accurate 43-215C 5 cavity aluminum
Pot: Lee Pro 4-20 bottom pour
Setting: 7.5ish (between shiny and frosty)
Pour Rate: roughly 1 second per cavity
Average weight: 222gr

Method: Heat up mold on gas stove for 15 minutes while 10lb lead melts on high. After lead melts, flux with a pea sized beeswax and stir with softwood paintstick. Begin pouring, tossing first 10 pours back into pot. Get into groove. Pour, hold steady and wait until sprue lead frosts over and forms a dimple. hit sprue with rubber hammer to snap sprue. Turn mold upside down 1" over towel, tap handle bolt gently until boolets fall out.

These are my varying results. No matter what I do, I can't seem to get consistently perfect flat bases. I know its probably in my method but its not so obviously related to something that I'm doing - it seems to happen completely randomly. Would you consider all of these to be rejects? Would you keep some and throw some pack into pot? Or am I being too anal and they all look ok? I know you need a sharp edge along the base instead of rounded edges, with no nicks around the edge. But how important are blemishes in the center?

260679

#1: Obvious hole in center. Gut says discard?
#2: small dent in center, but not so drastic.
#3 + #4: looks marred but running finger over feels pretty smooth.

Thanks for any guidance... looking forward to lubing some up and finally getting some rounds together!

[metricmonkeywrench]

Dealing with this demon myself. 1&2 is from the mould sprue not being full enough “sucking” in air as the bullet cools/shrinks as it cools in the mould or possibly hollow in the center from a coldish pour. I would shoot 3+4 no problem.

I’ve taken to weighing what I cast to look for Hidden deviations after culling out the obvious defects. As I learn the particulars for each mold my failures are starting to drop.

Keep at it

[alamogunr]

I have had that problem. I somewhat solved it by pouring an excess of lead so there is a puddle on top of the sprue plate. This also helps to heat up the sprue plate so the puddle stays molten long enough to match the solidification of the boolit. That gives me a smooth cut on the base of the boolit and also lets me just use the gloved hand to cut the sprue.

The above is just my simple analysis of a problem. It works until it won't.

[Conditor22]

Welcome to cast boolits Barks_at_Wind I'm glad you posted pictures. the more detailed a description you give [and pictures] the easier/better someone can help you.


1 and 2 show signs that the sprue plate is not tight enough to the mold or is crocked [sometimes on older molds the mold wears where the sprue plate swivels on the mold top and wears down the mold top at that area causing the sprue plate to stick up over the cavities].

The primary cause of divots is cutting the sprue too soon, not letting the sprue puddle harden enough
The second cause is not leaving a big enough puddle on top of the sprue plate to have adequate lead/weight to "suck down" into the mold cavity at the lead cools

Another possible concern is the edge of the sprue plate holes are not sharp. there are several ways to deal with this:
1) form a cone with sandpaper (sand on the outside) use a drill with a Philips bit pushing only hard enough to spin the sandpaper and spin it until the edges are sharp
2) use a countersink with the same angle and drill it down to where it's sharp

you can use finer sandpaper or a Dremel and polish the sprue plate holes.

*** don't forget to place sandpaper on a flat surface (glass/tile/---) and flatten/smooth the bottom of the sprue before reassembling***

the farther you're shooting the more important a flat smooth base and clean edges around the base of the boolit becomes. IF the gases don't exit around the base of the boolit evenly at the forcing cone it will throw the boolit off.

for close handgun shooting, you may not notice a difference.

Personally I throw them back when I see them, it's too easy to melt them down and do them right :).

[roadie]

It looks to me that the sprue plate isn't sitting flat on the mold. Running it over a plate covered with an abrasive would help. Assuming the sprue plate is tight and not swinging loose on the mold.

Is it just my eyes, or are the bases slightly rounded on those bullets? If rounded, you'll want to work on getting better fill out.

[Dusty Bannister]

Is it possible that you have the valve rod that opens and closes to allow the flow of alloy set too tight and this reduces the flow of the hot alloy into the mold? I would try opening that setting to get a full flow rapidly into the cavity down the center of the sprue hole and form the puddle. Pause as you move to the next cavity and quickly open and close the valve to fill and form the sprue puddle and move on. This will keep the flow moving, and keep the mold and sprue plate hot as you progress across the mold. Aluminum molds like hot and fast, but do need enough time for the sprue to freeze over. You do not need a lot of drop from the nozzle to the mold.

Is it necessary to add to the process by turning the mold upside down? K I S S sometimes is a better plan. I was casting some Lee 452-200-RF this morning and that movement is not needed.

[Minerat]

As long as the base is flat on the edges I shoot them. They are just like hollow base bullets only not enough to expand into the rifling. Also agree with the other comments big puddle and let it cool longer.

[upnorthwis]

My experience is that the divots will make no difference at all. Do an experiment shooting the worst ones verses the best ones. I don't find rounded corners to be rejects either.

[Cherokee]

You have received good comments so I'll just welcome you to the hobby. You will improve with time. BTW, I would shoot any of the 4 for short range.

[Mk42gunner]

Why are you only putting ten pounds of alloy in your pot? Fill that sucker up, lead flows better with a full pot behind it.

Also don't expect the Lee 4-20 to actually hold twenty pounds, the general consensus seems to be that they hold around seventeen pounds.

If all else fails, get an RCBS ladle and use it.

Welcome to the hobby, think of it as a never-ending learning quest.

Robert

[Wayne Smith]

I agree that the first two need to be put back into the pot - it's so easy to do that. I wait until I'm done and cool, then sort and toss back into the pot anything that does not pass. The other two I'd shoot. Yes letting the lead puddle and waiting until it's solid to open the sprue will solve most of your problems.

[Tripplebeards]

I had a few like that my second to the last pour. I gas check mine so it covers the imperfections up. A few wobbled when I stood them up straight before I applied the GC so those that wobbled got their bases swiped a few times on a piece of 220 sandpaper till they sat flat. I then PC’d and GC’d them. I have some that Look like 1 and 2 and PC’d them and shot out of my new vaquero. I can hit shotgun shells one right after another at 25 yards. IMO I doubt you will see much or any accuracy difference between them. I’d probably cherry pick the goods ones as well.

[44Blam]

#1 is probably light and has a cavity. 2,3 and 4 are good to go.

[Conditor22]

Close the sprue plate and hold the mold up to a light. IF you can see light between the sprue plate and the top of the mold the gap is too big.

[mozeppa]

get a hot plate to keep the mold hot.

[Walks]

With that big aluminum mold, are you setting the pot temp too low ?
I generally start my pot temp at 725-750degrees and back off a bit when the bullets are filled out and the sprue's cut clean.

Temp of lead is critical. I've never cast of 40/1. 20/1 gives me some beautiful bullets right at 710-725degrees after about 5-10casts.

[GregLaROCHE]

There are a lot of good points mentioned. For me the boolit weight would be the most important thing to consider. Unless some are really light, for now you should go ahead and shoot them. Yes, maybe you can have closer to perfect bases, but first do some shooting and decide, if you want to go chasing possibly small details, that may contribute to your accuracy or not.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby. There’s a world of knowledge to be found on this forum.

[lightman]

My friends say that I am too picky and that I cull stuff that they would shoot. So I saved up some selected culls to load up and shoot. I couldn't tell any difference between the groups of the culls and the keepers. These were pistol cartridges and I am not a Nationally ranked Bullseye shooter!

[Tripplebeards]

Yep, just like Greg said. I’m more concerned about weight. I weigh and separate in 1 grain increments. If I was shooting non GC boolots long distance in rifles then I would want the bases perfect and cull all of them. Good thing I GC all my rifle boolots. The GC covers all the imperfections.

[44magLeo]

I tend to cull large holes in the bases a well as very rounded bases.
If the rest of the boolit look good, sharp grooves and edges then minor holes and rounded bases are ok in my handguns and long guns that shoot pistol cartridges, this will include the 44-40 even if it was designed as a rifle cartridge.
On my long guns that use old straight walled cases, like the 45-70 a few minor blems are ok.
On the bottle neck rifle cartridges I get a bit more picky. Any blems I see get rejected.
weighing, on the short fat bullets in pistols not so much/ In the long skinny used in rifles I do to reduce possible variations.
Leo

[WHITETAIL]

Barks at Wind
Welcome to the forum![smilie=s:
+1 on all the advice on here.
I too like large pools on the
sprue plate.:cbpour:
If what you are doing is short
pistol shooting.
Just keep pouring and check them
after you are done.
You will be surprised at how many
good ones you can make that way.:Fire:

[charlie b]

I would load and shoot all of them.

Yes, to fix this it is a combination of waiting until the melt is cooler and a good pour with generous sprue. The most important part of the bullet is the outer edge of the base. As long as that is nice and square you are good.

At pistol distances it makes little to no difference. At 100yd you might see a flyer that makes a 3" group instead of a 2" group. Any further or better accuracy you need to weigh the bullets to make sure there are no voids.

[Tripplebeards]

I wiggle my mold back and forth a few times to work out air pockets and then cut my sprues at the first sign of the lead hardening. I will get smear here and there but my bases are nice and flat most the time. I also run my lee pot overly hot. Eight and above. I have to skim crust off the top of my lead melt quite often at these temps or I get build up very quickly. My mold got really hot last week while 8 was in a pouring session and I had a few that looked looked 1 and 2. I spun the bases on a piece of 220 grit sand paper back and forth till the boolits would sit flat on my table. I then re weighed, PCd, and GCd them. I’m sure my sanded bases covered in PC and a GC will shoot great. I have PCd over sprue base holes in my 255 grain lee .452’s and the shoot excellent. The boolits ddI sir flat on a table with no wobbling even through they had air pocket holes in them and I also kept them within a 3 grain spread. My rifle boolits I divide within 1 grain increments. Tighter groups than with jacketed ammo by far. I can shoot five in a group at 15 yards off hand I can cover with a fifty cent piece.

[Walks]

I was Raised that bullets should look Perfect. So I have a high rejection rate.
About 20yrs ago at a Cowboy Shoot, one of the other Shooters put his ammo down on the table to load. It looked like COMPLETE REJECTS. I said so.
He answered "We are only shooting 12"-18" steel at less then 50yds, believe Me, It doesn't matter."

So next casting session I culled the culls, found enough for a box each of .44Spl & .44WCF, as long as the bases & driving bands were filled out and the .44WCF bullets had good noses, they passed.

Next match I tried them. Culls in my Right Hand Colt, "good" bullets in My Left Hand Colt. Every other stage I switched off between My Rifle with culls and My Carbine with "good" bullets.

Did NOT matter. "Kidd" was right. So I'm a bit less picky then I used to be.

I still shoot the "Perfect" bullets at Paper.

[onelight]

Me to Walks mine used to be all perfect or back in the pot.
Not as picky as I used to be.

[Barks_at_Wind]

Hey thanks all for all the good advice, its nice to be in good company.

Haven't had a chance to cast until yesterday, I work in a laboratory and with everything going on in the world it's been non-stop.

But it felt good to get back to the pot and do some lead therapy. I took all your advice to heart and changed some things about my process:

Ran the pot a little hotter (set to 8), opened the spigot for larger flow, picked up my pace to keep the mold hot, and overfilled the sprue even more.

In the end I ended up with far more 'passes' than before. I had gotten to a 33% reject rate, and now I'm at about 10%, with only a few out of 300 with noticable base holes (like pic #1 in OP). I'm sure I'll keep improving with time as I do more reading and potentially get an electric stove to keep the mold even more warm.

Ended up powder coating 100 in Eastwood's Chrome Bonded to do some test loads with titegroup and trailboss smokeless, and lubed 200 with homemade (40:40:10:10 Beeswax:Lamb Tallow:Paraffin:Lanolin) to use with some Goex fffg. Have to be careful with pressures since the frame is solid brass. Pics below:

261100

261101

Thanks for the warm welcome, looking forward to being a part of this forum.

[alamogunr]

Boy! That is some lube groove. I've never seen a 44-40 so maybe it requires that much lube. I've got a 45-230 WFN that was a GB awhile back. It's lube groove is less than half as wide and maybe half as deep. I haven't shot it so I hope that there will be enough lube. I guess, if not, I can always try PC, which I have not gotten into yet.

[robg]

if the bases are good i shoot them .boolits cast best when lead is hotter as a rule.

[Barks_at_Wind]

Boy! That is some lube groove. I've never seen a 44-40 so maybe it requires that much lube. I've got a 45-230 WFN that was a GB awhile back. It's lube groove is less than half as wide and maybe half as deep. I haven't shot it so I hope that there will be enough lube. I guess, if not, I can always try PC, which I have not gotten into yet.

Yea, the lube groove was designed specifically for longer barreled black powder shooters, when using dirty powders like Goex, to prevent fouling. Its overkill for sure for smokeless. But I plan to do long range shooting with Goex fffg which has been said to be dirty, about 100 rounds a session, and my barrel is 24". I like cleaning my guns, but not mid session

[Springfield]

The 2 bullets on the left look like that because you let the bullets cool too much.The one on the right is probably going to be as good as it gets. FWIW with non-LEE moulds I open the sprue plate with my gloved hand. If you really need a hammer to open the plate it has cooled too much, and will tear the bottom. I cast a few thousand 44-40 bullets a month as I am loading for 4 in my family, who all shoot Cowboy Action Shooting.
261139

[MT Gianni]

As far as your first pictures I would definitely cull 1&2 if shooting at 500 yards. I would be concerned at the target size at 200 yards and keep them if under 75 yards and a generous bullseye. You have been given great instruction on how to improve your bases.