Paper Patching for the Double Rifle

[carpediem4570]

Good Evening:

I have a Merkel double rifle in 9.3x74R and, I have been casting bullets for my other guns for decades.

I am having problems finding projectiles and have decided to try paper patching bullets for my double.

Is there anyone here who has experience in patching and loading for the double rifle?

A couple questions come to mind:
1 Due to recoil,bullets are always crimped into place so no movement of the projectile in the case occurs when discharging the
first round. Can ppb be crimped into place using a factory crimp die or would a taper crimp be better.

2 The lands and grooves on my Merkel slug out at .356 and .366. Paul Mathews in his book suggests sizing the bullet so it just
fits in the bore without marking the bullet. I had a friend send me some ppb in my desired caliber. I took the ppb and ran
them through my lube sizer, with patches on, using a .366 die. They came out .367. My thoughts are sizing the projectiles to
.356, wrapping them to .366, running them through the lube sizer at .366 and using very slight amount of lube on the paper.
What say you?

3 My casting machine is a magma master caster. I am planning on ordering a mold from accurate molds. I use the rifle to hunt
deer and moose. Bullet weight would be 250-300 grains. Since the mold is special purpose, does it matter if the bullet is
smooth sided or with lube grooves?

And of course, as always, pictures and a full report will be forthcoming regarding this project.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to your input.

Kind regards,

carpediem

[barrabruce]

I haven’t loaded for a double rifle,but have read a bit.
Here are my thoughts.
A case full of powder under the bullet should stop bullet movement.
Load taken up with a wad or some granular filler.
They did it in the old days with the big bores soooo it can be done.
Bore + a thou and patch to fill the throat snugging up to the rifling so it can’t go anywhere but straight is one option to try.
A grease groove bullet will hold the paper better than a slick.
You may have to have a left and right barrell load in the end but not hard to grab out of a gun belt and plonk into a chamber just like a shooting a s/s shotgun one hand.
A bit of lube to fill the pores of the paper does wonders.

[sharps4590]

My first question is do you already have a cast bullet that regulates in the rifle and, am I to understand you're going to be shooting BP in this rifle?

To the first, good luck. I just finished 3 months and over 300 rounds of different loads and bullets with a Vierordt double in what is approximately 8 X 65R Brenneke, (long story), and never did find a combination that would regulate. barrab is all too correct in that you might end up with two separate loads. To the second, if I read between the lines correctly, since you mentioned Paul Matthews, do you think you can make it work with BP? If I misunderstood, please disregard any of my references to BP.

I paper patched for a Reilley double in 500 BPE that had Henry rifling, first and LAST rifle I will own with Henry rifling if I intend to shoot BP from it. Anyway, again barrab is right, a sized down grooved bullet holds the patch better. Definitely lube the patch. I used the sizing die to sort of taper crimp the case. If you're going to order your mold from Tom, he should be able to cut you a good, grease groove bullet to the size and weight you want, no? Then you won't have to bother with pp'ing. I found that to be the most hateful thing about handloading I ever did and I never intend to do it again....so much so that I sold the rifle after owning it for 25+ years.

As to my Vierordt, it shoots BOTH 170 gr. and 200 gr. jacketed bullets to the same point of aim. (After the 300 cast rounds I gave up), I have shot 1 5/8 composite groups with the swaged down to .318, 170 gr. round nose and 1 7/8 composite groups with the 200 gr. spitzers swaged to .318. Groups fired at 60 yards, open sights.

[Dan Cash]

Good Evening:

I have a Merkel double rifle in 9.3x74R and, I have been casting bullets for my other guns for decades.

I am having problems finding projectiles and have decided to try paper patching bullets for my double.

Is there anyone here who has experience in patching and loading for the double rifle?

A couple questions come to mind:
1 Due to recoil,bullets are always crimped into place so no movement of the projectile in the case occurs when discharging the
first round. Can ppb be crimped into place using a factory crimp die or would a taper crimp be better.I paper patch for an 1895 Winchester in .30-06 and .30-40 Krag, both of which have a fair amount of recoil but not heavy. Neck tension holds the bullets in the case quite well. A loaded magazine held in reserve after firing 10 single loaded cartridges shows no projectile movement,

2 The lands and grooves on my Merkel slug out at .356 and .366. Paul Mathews in his book suggests sizing the bullet so it just
fits in the bore without marking the bullet. I had a friend send me some ppb in my desired caliber. I took the ppb and ran
them through my lube sizer, with patches on, using a .366 die. They came out .367. My thoughts are sizing the projectiles to
.356, wrapping them to .366, running them through the lube sizer at .366 and using very slight amount of lube on the paper.
What say you?You might have to size to .356 but I would try .358 assuming your paper is .002 thick.
I woould not size the patched bullet and unlike Barabruce, unless I were looking for some level of waterproofing, I would not lubricate the patches.

3 My casting machine is a magma master caster. I am planning on ordering a mold from accurate molds. I use the rifle to hunt
deer and moose. Bullet weight would be 250-300 grains. Since the mold is special purpose, does it matter if the bullet is
smooth sided or with lube grooves?After you discover the size needed for your bore(s), I would order a grease groove mould cut to drop to the size needed so I could patch without sizing. If your bores are two different sizes, try fitting to the larger bore and then shooting the same cartridge in the smaller. If that won't work, get the mould for the larger bore and size it for the smaller.

Good Luck

And of course, as always, pictures and a full report will be forthcoming regarding this project.

Thank you for your time and I look forward to your input.

Kind regards,

carpediem

Comments are within the quoted text in bold.

[303Guy]

You might consider a specific grooved paper patch boolit design. It has more smaller and shallower grooves to grip the paper. Also look into a Louverin design, either as a standard design boolit Louverin or a modified design for paper patch.

I've used smooth side taper boolits that fit the taper of the throat in softish alloy that grips the patch well. Harder alloy requires knurling with a pair of files which works fine too. The advantage I think, of smooth sides is that they are heavier for their length or conversely, shorter for their weight. A shorter boolit might be advantageous if the throat is short.

[carpediem4570]

Good Afternoon and thank you for your responses:

I am not loading bp. This is strictly a smokeless gun.

Regarding regulation, this Mekel is a model 141 E. It has a screw at the front between the bores to regulate the barrels. Once I find a load that shoots accurately in both barrels, I use the regulation screws to bring the shots together. Works like a charm. currently I am using a jacketed Speer 270 grain bullet loaded over 53.0 grains of Varget. Approximately 2200 fps, (book value).

I have slugged both barrels and they both come up .356/.366. Using a lead slug sized to .356 and note pad paper that mics at .003, two wraps brings it up to .367. I will be loading these with a taper crimp and a starting load of varget, (50 grains). Rounds will be loaded so the paper will be touching the landes.


I have a second double rifle in 9.3x74R; an Antonio Zolli Model Savanna. This is the problem child. With jacketed bullets, I can get the left and right barrels within an inch of one another but they are verically about 12 inches apart. I want to try ppb with this one as well. If it doesn't work, I will be sending it in for re-regulation. The barrels on this double are fixed so, no screw to adjust regulation. I have not yet slugged the bores. One gun at a time.

I am still searching for the magic paper that will make my bullets a laser beam, LOL. The two critical things I take away from Paul Mathews and you guys are, only two wraps and, cotton base paper with no clay. As an aside, I was making myself a cup of tea the other day, and noticed the tea bag. I cut the bag open, emptied out the tea and mic'ed the bag. .002. Anyone look into the properties of the tea bag as a paper patch? Slightly porus to accept lube, water proof, strong, won't tear or fall apart.

As always, your comments are grately appreciated,


Kind regards,

Carpediem

[303Guy]

Tea bag paper you say? Mmm.....

On the clay content, I don't worry about that. It polishes the bores.

[Dan Cash]

I use cheap tracing paper from several sources. Pay attention to which way you cut your patches as one direction it stretches and the other way it does not. Lube picks up dirt and weakens the paper. When patching, patch all the way to the ogive; the bore riding section will be in the rifled portion of the bore.

[sharps4590]

Good Afternoon and thank you for your responses:

I am not loading bp. This is strictly a smokeless gun.

Regarding regulation, this Mekel is a model 141 E. It has a screw at the front between the bores to regulate the barrels. Once I find a load that shoots accurately in both barrels, I use the regulation screws to bring the shots together. Works like a charm. currently I am using a jacketed Speer 270 grain bullet loaded over 53.0 grains of Varget. Approximately 2200 fps, (book value).

I have slugged both barrels and they both come up .356/.366. Using a lead slug sized to .356 and note pad paper that mics at .003, two wraps brings it up to .367. I will be loading these with a taper crimp and a starting load of varget, (50 grains). Rounds will be loaded so the paper will be touching the landes.


I have a second double rifle in 9.3x74R; an Antonio Zolli Model Savanna. This is the problem child. With jacketed bullets, I can get the left and right barrels within an inch of one another but they are verically about 12 inches apart. I want to try ppb with this one as well. If it doesn't work, I will be sending it in for re-regulation. The barrels on this double are fixed so, no screw to adjust regulation. I have not yet slugged the bores. One gun at a time.

I am still searching for the magic paper that will make my bullets a laser beam, LOL. The two critical things I take away from Paul Mathews and you guys are, only two wraps and, cotton base paper with no clay. As an aside, I was making myself a cup of tea the other day, and noticed the tea bag. I cut the bag open, emptied out the tea and mic'ed the bag. .002. Anyone look into the properties of the tea bag as a paper patch? Slightly porus to accept lube, water proof, strong, won't tear or fall apart.

As always, your comments are grately appreciated,


Kind regards,

Carpediem

Then most of what I wrote is worthless...lol!! I've always worked with vintage doubles and those you can regulate yourself never cross my mid. THAT was a fantastic development!!!

I patched with two papers. Rag cotton, (bond paper?) and, for a friend, with onion skin. Got them both at Staples. Both worked in their applications. You have an interesting project goin on and I'm looking forward to your results.

My experience with the doubles I've worked wit has usually been that both barrels often shoot very good groups, individually. My difficulty has always been bringing them together.

[carpediem4570]

Sharps 4590:

LOL, and there is the bain of existance for the double rifle shooter. Getting the barrels to group. That is why I like the Merkel system so much. It really takes alot of the work out of regulating the gun,

[sharps4590]

You're tellin' me. Short story; My first double was/is a German DR by E. Goldmann in Erfurt. Beautifully engraved and it has to be 100% coverage. I'm fairly certain it's from the late 1870's and is in 11.15 X 60R, (43 Mauser). Great cartridge, not far off our 45-70. I won't go into details, I'll become either ill or angry but, it took me over 6 months of steady work and I don't know how many pounds of BP and 3 different bullet molds before I got it to regulate to a consistent 2 to 2 1/2 inches at 60 yards, depending on my day. Final load ended up being 5 grs. of SR-4759 under 68 grs. of the old GOEX Cartridge and the Lyman 350 gr. bullet. After that rifle I felt as if I'd earned a Phd. in handloading. I've learned a ton over the last 27-28 years and today I don't believe it would take me as long. This last Vierordt didn't take as long but I was determined to make cast bullets work....and I haven't been able to. 3rd jacketed load I tried and I was satisfied. I'd still like to come up with a cast load and maybe after I ponder all those targets, loads and chrono records, again, I'll have an epiphany.

If I weren't such a schmuck about things having to be vintage, I'd like to try the very rifle you have. A friend loaned me his Perrugini double to play with in 9.3 X 74R and I developed a real liking for that cartridge. I liked it better than the 375 H&H's I've owned. No fly's on the 375, I just like the 9.3 better.

[carpediem4570]

I have a Brno 602 in 375 HH. I love that rifle. Puts deer and moose down with authority. Ane its a tack driver.

My 9.3x74R is a love affair with the cartridge. A friend once described it thus: "Your Brno 375 HH is yourt wife. Your Merkel 9.3x74R is your mistress.

Did you ever try shooting paper patched through your double?

Kind regards,

Carpediem

[45workhorse]

Keep us up to date on your mistress, please! I have always wanted a mistress...I mean double rifle.:bigsmyl2:

[sharps4590]

I never PP'ed for my German doubles but, with the Reilly I owned in 500 BPE with Henry rifling, paper patching was the only way I could make it shoot with BP. Nitro for black loads with hard cast or Hawk jacketed bullets in that rifle were consistently 2 inch or less. Don't take what I've said about that rifle the way I make it sound. It was a fine rifle and I had the pleasure of owning it for 25 years. I just really, really hate PP-ing bullets and that was the only way I got it to shoot with black....and I was ready for something different.

I suppose, when it comes to rifles, I'm ready to swap a wife for a mistress......:lol:

[carpediem4570]

LOL. Skip the mistress. Buy a double rifle. It's cheaper and way more fun.

[sharps4590]

LOL. Skip the mistress. Buy a double rifle. It's cheaper and way more fun.

We REALLY need a "like" button!

[Tatume]

My 9.3x74R rifle is a single shot. I have not tried paper patched bullets in it, because cast LFN cast bullets shoot so well. Veral Smith made the mold for me. He also modified an RCBS sizer die to crimp gas checks intended for 375 bullets (9.3 gas checks were not available at the time, and I don't know if they are now). The modification consisted of cutting a bevel to allow the gas checks to start into the sizing die without cutting the edges. They come out slightly domed, but as I said, they shoot very well.

While this is not an answer to your question, I hope it helps.

[sharps4590]

Tatume, is your 9.3 a Ruger? If so, how do you like it?

I don't know when they became available but 9.3 gas checks have been available for at least 5 years that I know of....and darn my hide, I can't think of who has them....something "Outdoors"?. They come in aluminum and gilding metal, I guess. They look like Hornady's. I bought some aluminum simply because I'd never tried them. Well, I have now and I won't be buying any more. They work fine but I don't think their initial fit is as good as gilding material.

Edit: HA!!! I remembered. "Sage Outdoors"....I think.

[Don Purcell]

LOL. Skip the mistress. Buy a double rifle. It's cheaper and way more fun.

With what I've spent in over 43 years on my wife a mistress would have been WAY, WAY cheaper!

[Huvius]

You know the definition of a "mistress"?
It's something between a mister and a mattress...

[Old Coot]

Tatume, is your 9.3 a Ruger? If so, how do you like it?

I don't know when they became available but 9.3 gas checks have been available for at least 5 years that I know of....and darn my hide, I can't think of who has them....something "Outdoors"?. They come in aluminum and gilding metal, I guess. They look like Hornady's. I bought some aluminum simply because I'd never tried them. Well, I have now and I won't be buying any more. They work fine but I don't think their initial fit is as good as gilding material.

Edit: HA!!! I remembered. "Sage Outdoors"....I think.

They are Sage Outdoors gas checks. NOE and White label lube carry them.

[sharps4590]

Thank you, Coot. I tossed the packaging and couldn't remember.

[carpediem4570]

Greetings and salutations fellow shooters:

I completely forgot about this thread so, apologies for not responding.

To date, no further progress has happened regarding cast bullets and my merkel double rifle. Life and work got in the way.

Now that I am very close to retirement, and with the very recent loss of my favorite hunting/best pal dog, it’s time to pick up where we left off.

In the meantime, have also acquired a ruger #1 in 9.3x74r which I hope to set up for cast bullet shooting.

I’m thinking a weight of 250 to 270 grains. If I take it hunting, that should give me enough foot pounds for deer and moose to 200 yards.

Your thoughts on this please.

Kind regards,

Max

[elk hunter]

First off welcome back.

If I were to hunt with a 9.3 and cast bullets I would prefer a bullet with a large meplat as I've seen what a blunt nose cast bullet can do to big animals. I would also look for the softest alloy that didn't lead at the highest speed I could get with accuracy and safely. As for your Merkel most double rifles can shoot cast bullets with some degree of satisfaction. The bigger the caliber the easier it seems to be to get them to shoot decent groups and regulate. That said I still haven't gotten my Chapuis 9.3x74 double to shoot cast to my satisfaction. The individual barrels shoot OK but so far I haven't found a load that regulates.

[Good Cheer]

Greetings and salutations fellow shooters:

I completely forgot about this thread so, apologies for not responding.

To date, no further progress has happened regarding cast bullets and my merkel double rifle. Life and work got in the way.

Now that I am very close to retirement, and with the very recent loss of my favorite hunting/best pal dog, it’s time to pick up where we left off.

In the meantime, have also acquired a ruger #1 in 9.3x74r which I hope to set up for cast bullet shooting.

I’m thinking a weight of 250 to 270 grains. If I take it hunting, that should give me enough foot pounds for deer and moose to 200 yards.

Your thoughts on this please.

Kind regards,

Max

Hey Max.
I'm currently engaged in creating cast ammo for the same rifle. No results to report yet.
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=37-275A
Data on hand looks as though WW760 may be the cat's meow.

[carpediem4570]

Holy crap good cheer, that is the bullet design I’m looking for. I live in Alberta, Canada. If I send you money, can you ship 100 of those for me to try out? I do not need them lubed and sized as I would do that myself.

What size gas check do you use? I see the bullet is .369 in diameter. I am assuming you use this bullet cast and lubed to your needed diameter.

What rifle are you shooting this from?

To update: I am now semi retired: taking the summer off.
I use magma equipment for making bullets. They have shut down and were bought and moved to Australia. I will order the mold blank and have them shipped so I can get a mold.

There will be some serious testing going on in the coming weeks. I will keep you updated.