Dapaki
04-18-2020, 10:24 PM
I purchased a nice sized lot of WC867 from Jeff Bartlett due to the low cost per pound ($5.00) and ultimately to see if it would work as a Black Powder analog in my 1" canon.
(more on that later)
Once I had some time to work on some loads, I became very curious about small bottle necked cartridges and if there was any use for such a slow powder as WC867 (I'll just call if 867 from here out). MUSTANG wrote some interesting threads that inspired me even more (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?160094-WC860-in-223-5-56-Yes-But&p=1785944&viewfull=1#post1785944) about the use of the surplus powders in .223 so I took the dive, grabbed some PPE and headed out to the shop for some espeerementing!
I based some assumptions on what I have read and was confident that a case full of 867 would be just fine in my Handi with no issues of handling the charge. I started with 27.3gr of 867 in mixed military brass, sitting on a WSR primer for an analog and to witness for myself what all that nonsense about 'dirty, incomplete burning' was, Phhhppttt! I'll prove you all wrong! (said like Snydley Whiplash)
5 rounds topped off with a LEE 55gr FN boolit PC in Texas A&M orange shot at 50 yards gave me an amazing 5 shot group of 15/16"... OK, a 4 shot group plus a flyer making it an 1-1/8" overall. Still, not to bad from an impromptu lawnchair/folding table shooting bench? The pictures below tell the real story though, shown are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds. The first is not shown since it looked pretty as a penny!
260644 260645 260646 260647
I probably dont have to tell much of a story here but I'll clarify a few things, 1). Yes, that green snot-like stuff is indeed unburndt powder. 2). shot 5 looks pretty darn clean there buddy!
I was pretty concerned about the primers so I neglected to even look at the case necks, after all, beside a case neck split, what is there to get exited about? There it was, all that Mill-Spec green goobery gunk denting my precious brass! By the time I shot the 4th round, I had a hard time getting the 5th to seat when closing the breach. That always gets me a wide eyed and looking down the barrel, I saw what looked like a sewer line with a rolling stream of ugly smoke slowly rolling down the barrel and rats the size of 867 sticking to the walls. Only one way to take care of rats... a snake!
I pulled the snake once and the barrel looked fine so I loaded and fired the 5th round which turned out to be the flyer, ruining my beautiful little group! Here is a peek at the primer, it still has full shoulders and a light bolt face print, which if you have seen the 'fly cutter finish' on most of the Handi's, you know there is no mirror finish on them.
260648
Lookin good so far! On to the second string. This is where I introduced a Kicker to the mix. I started with 3.5gr of W231, not too fast, bulky, will stay put and well, I had it on the shelf. I decided on the weight of 3.5gr based on a lot of in-depth research... of my dipper selection. I would have started with a smaller kicker but this is what I had and with the pressure signs I saw on the primer, I knew I had plenty of room so I felt safe in choosing this amount.
It turns out that indeed, it was fine for pressures, the primer is flattening out some but frankly, all my loads as well as all the military brass shows the same or greater flattening but please, feel free to comment and share your feelings about my selection, the couch is open! (How does zat make you feeeel?)
260649
There is no reflow, the cup has no rim but the pin strike looks to be flat, certainly a pressure sign. The bad thing is the group size at 2-5/16". The case head measures the same as the mild loads and other than the flattening, nothing too concerning but I will most definitely be running downwards with the kicker weight until I see the groups shrink. The recoil was very familiar to a normal FMJ commercial round, the report was a little mild but overall, I could shoot this load all day with no worries, well, worries of hitting anything.
The third string was abruptly ended when I heard a "strange" report from the barrel when shooting the first of five rounds. It wasn't bad or chilling, just different. More like a .22lr than a .223 sound. Loud of course but a higher pitch. The recoil was average and the single shot placed about where the second string started. I opened the breach and the release was a bit harder to push than I like, it could be getting warm by now but 'spidy sense' told me to look at the primer. Sure enough, flattened with some reflow. Nothing to be alarmed about, I have seen primer strikes blown out in commercial shells and rims on strike cups before so I was not too concerned but I sure don't like tempting fate so I closed it down for further research.
260650
Notice I didn't tell you what the kicker was or my load of 867? Well, I wanted to stay at a slightly compressed load to keep the powders from mingling so I started with 27.5gr of 867 in the first string where the boolit base just kissed the powder. The 231 is flake and is not going anywhere in the 30 feet from my shop door to the range so the thought of migration was not a concern. With the second string, I had to push a tiny bit on the powder, perhaps 1/16" and the last string got about 1/8" of compression when seating the boolit.
Now, here is where the little voice that is supposed to start screaming, "Danger, Danger, Will Robinson!" but remained silent as I pulled that first round out of the seating die and for the very first time in about 30 years of reloading, the bullet was slightly cocked to one side... Odd?
I tried the next one and it seated fine, so did the other three, so I shrugged my shoulders and made my merry way to the range to shoot these beauties! I inserted the round, locked it up, cocked the hammer ans sighted the scope, squeeeeeezed the trigger and bang!
260653
I used 3.7gr of 2400 under 27.5gr of 867 and I believe I found the place where you need to stop and go back! I will trickle out 1gr of 2400 and try this again but will reduce the 867 by 1gr (they are both ball powders and the density are very near the same) and see where that puts me tomorrow. The end goal is accuracy, it would be nice if they cycled in my AR but it's not important. What I can tell you is that for $0.02 of powder, $0.02 for a primer ($19.97 after tax for a brick) and field brass under a WW boolit that cost me nothing, I would be SUPER glad to be picking off targets with a 15/16" group IF I could get the kicker to kick out the unburndt powder!
Thanks for reading, I'll be back with stories of the 350 Legend, 7mm-08 and 45-70 soon.
(more on that later)
Once I had some time to work on some loads, I became very curious about small bottle necked cartridges and if there was any use for such a slow powder as WC867 (I'll just call if 867 from here out). MUSTANG wrote some interesting threads that inspired me even more (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?160094-WC860-in-223-5-56-Yes-But&p=1785944&viewfull=1#post1785944) about the use of the surplus powders in .223 so I took the dive, grabbed some PPE and headed out to the shop for some espeerementing!
I based some assumptions on what I have read and was confident that a case full of 867 would be just fine in my Handi with no issues of handling the charge. I started with 27.3gr of 867 in mixed military brass, sitting on a WSR primer for an analog and to witness for myself what all that nonsense about 'dirty, incomplete burning' was, Phhhppttt! I'll prove you all wrong! (said like Snydley Whiplash)
5 rounds topped off with a LEE 55gr FN boolit PC in Texas A&M orange shot at 50 yards gave me an amazing 5 shot group of 15/16"... OK, a 4 shot group plus a flyer making it an 1-1/8" overall. Still, not to bad from an impromptu lawnchair/folding table shooting bench? The pictures below tell the real story though, shown are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds. The first is not shown since it looked pretty as a penny!
260644 260645 260646 260647
I probably dont have to tell much of a story here but I'll clarify a few things, 1). Yes, that green snot-like stuff is indeed unburndt powder. 2). shot 5 looks pretty darn clean there buddy!
I was pretty concerned about the primers so I neglected to even look at the case necks, after all, beside a case neck split, what is there to get exited about? There it was, all that Mill-Spec green goobery gunk denting my precious brass! By the time I shot the 4th round, I had a hard time getting the 5th to seat when closing the breach. That always gets me a wide eyed and looking down the barrel, I saw what looked like a sewer line with a rolling stream of ugly smoke slowly rolling down the barrel and rats the size of 867 sticking to the walls. Only one way to take care of rats... a snake!
I pulled the snake once and the barrel looked fine so I loaded and fired the 5th round which turned out to be the flyer, ruining my beautiful little group! Here is a peek at the primer, it still has full shoulders and a light bolt face print, which if you have seen the 'fly cutter finish' on most of the Handi's, you know there is no mirror finish on them.
260648
Lookin good so far! On to the second string. This is where I introduced a Kicker to the mix. I started with 3.5gr of W231, not too fast, bulky, will stay put and well, I had it on the shelf. I decided on the weight of 3.5gr based on a lot of in-depth research... of my dipper selection. I would have started with a smaller kicker but this is what I had and with the pressure signs I saw on the primer, I knew I had plenty of room so I felt safe in choosing this amount.
It turns out that indeed, it was fine for pressures, the primer is flattening out some but frankly, all my loads as well as all the military brass shows the same or greater flattening but please, feel free to comment and share your feelings about my selection, the couch is open! (How does zat make you feeeel?)
260649
There is no reflow, the cup has no rim but the pin strike looks to be flat, certainly a pressure sign. The bad thing is the group size at 2-5/16". The case head measures the same as the mild loads and other than the flattening, nothing too concerning but I will most definitely be running downwards with the kicker weight until I see the groups shrink. The recoil was very familiar to a normal FMJ commercial round, the report was a little mild but overall, I could shoot this load all day with no worries, well, worries of hitting anything.
The third string was abruptly ended when I heard a "strange" report from the barrel when shooting the first of five rounds. It wasn't bad or chilling, just different. More like a .22lr than a .223 sound. Loud of course but a higher pitch. The recoil was average and the single shot placed about where the second string started. I opened the breach and the release was a bit harder to push than I like, it could be getting warm by now but 'spidy sense' told me to look at the primer. Sure enough, flattened with some reflow. Nothing to be alarmed about, I have seen primer strikes blown out in commercial shells and rims on strike cups before so I was not too concerned but I sure don't like tempting fate so I closed it down for further research.
260650
Notice I didn't tell you what the kicker was or my load of 867? Well, I wanted to stay at a slightly compressed load to keep the powders from mingling so I started with 27.5gr of 867 in the first string where the boolit base just kissed the powder. The 231 is flake and is not going anywhere in the 30 feet from my shop door to the range so the thought of migration was not a concern. With the second string, I had to push a tiny bit on the powder, perhaps 1/16" and the last string got about 1/8" of compression when seating the boolit.
Now, here is where the little voice that is supposed to start screaming, "Danger, Danger, Will Robinson!" but remained silent as I pulled that first round out of the seating die and for the very first time in about 30 years of reloading, the bullet was slightly cocked to one side... Odd?
I tried the next one and it seated fine, so did the other three, so I shrugged my shoulders and made my merry way to the range to shoot these beauties! I inserted the round, locked it up, cocked the hammer ans sighted the scope, squeeeeeezed the trigger and bang!
260653
I used 3.7gr of 2400 under 27.5gr of 867 and I believe I found the place where you need to stop and go back! I will trickle out 1gr of 2400 and try this again but will reduce the 867 by 1gr (they are both ball powders and the density are very near the same) and see where that puts me tomorrow. The end goal is accuracy, it would be nice if they cycled in my AR but it's not important. What I can tell you is that for $0.02 of powder, $0.02 for a primer ($19.97 after tax for a brick) and field brass under a WW boolit that cost me nothing, I would be SUPER glad to be picking off targets with a 15/16" group IF I could get the kicker to kick out the unburndt powder!
Thanks for reading, I'll be back with stories of the 350 Legend, 7mm-08 and 45-70 soon.