44 cal. #2 Remington rolling block

[ndnchf]

I started a discussion about this rifle in the rimfire forum. But I've put a centerfire breech block in it. I thought it prudent to move over here. That thread is located here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?399346-Anyone-playing-with-44-Rimfire-Long

I thought I'd show how I mad a dummy round for the rifle. First off I measured the chamber using telescoping gauges, a micrometer and a digital caliper. Of course, a chamber cast is another option. With the basic chamber dimensions in hand, I looked around for a parent case that I could modify. For the .44 I used a 303 British case.

I knew the case would end up being around an inch long, so measuring the 303, I needed to remove about .015" from the case diameter at the head end. I did this on a lathe. After cutting, some 320 sandpaper smoothed it up.

Next over to the Harbor Freight mini chop saw to cut it close to the length I wanted. Then to the power trimmer to finalize it.

This cartridge uses a heel bullet, but I dont have any 44 heel bullets on hand. So for the purpose of a dummy round, I made a heel bullet on the lathe from a 200gr .44-40 bullet. After expanding the case mouth, I measured the case mouth, then cut the heel to size.

Next I put just the bullet into the chamber until it stopped up against the rifling. Then using the depth rod of a digital caliper, I measured from the base of the bullet to the breech face (which distance equates to the back of the cartridge rim). With these measurements (minus about .010" for clearance), it was a simple math problem to determine the final case length. So it was back to the trimmer one more time.

After deburring, the bullet was seated in the case and test fitted in the rifle. It fit perfectly

This is just a dummy round. I've ordered more parent brass and proper heel bullets from BACO. When they arrive. I'll repeat the process.

Hopefully it wont be too long until I'm ready to take the old boy to the range.

[corbinace]

Very interesting, thank you for sharing the write up.
Accurate has quite a few"heeled" molds if you are interested.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=15

[ndnchf]

Very interesting, thank you for sharing the write up.
Accurate has quite a few"heeled" molds if you are interested.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=15

Yes, I look at their catalog regularly ;-) Old West Bullet Molds has some nice ones too.

[ndnchf]

Made good progress today - I made the first cartridge. The centerfire version of this 44 rimfire is essentially .44 S&W American. For this cartridge I used 303 Savage made into 44 Ballard/Wesson XL from BACO. The bullet is a 218gr .44 S&W American from BACO as well. The brass was cut down to .965", then the mouth was expanded to .410" to accept the .411" bullet heel. The brass was quite thick this far down. So I made a .410" mandrel to hold the case in the lathe, then turned the OD at the mouth down to. 440". After test fitting in the chamber, 22gr of Swiss 1-1/2 was drop tubed into the case. Then the bullet was seated, compressing the powder about .050".

According to a couple sources, .44 S&W American can be easily made from .41 magnum brass. I have some coming and will give it a try. My only concern is the undersize rim it has.

It's a pretty mild .44 cartridge. But the #2 rolling block is a pretty small rifle. I'm looking forward to taking it to the range.

[Jedman]

Always love to see Remington no. 2's, they are just the best looking of all rolling blocks to my eye.
No disrespect of your work or idea but I have to wonder why you did not just chamber it to 44 spl.
and use ready made brass and have the choice of all regular 44 boolits ?
Using 303 British brass is alright if you have a bunch and are not paying a lot for it. I have used a lot of 44 spl / 44 mag, 303 Brit, 30/40, 35 Rem for projects and they are all .452- .453 at the case head so I don't see why you would need to turn the brass on a lathe ?
It seems if you wanted to keep the OD of your brass smaller because of the smaller barrel shank diameter you could use trimmed 41 mag / spl brass and a 44 heeled boolit.

Jedman

[tim338]

Where did you get the centerfire breech block? I have a #2 in 32 rimfire I would like to convert over.

[ndnchf]

I enjoy the challenge making them shoot with the original cartridge (although the centerfire equivalent). This is a very early #2. In respect to the metallurgy of the day, I'd be concerned with chambering it to 44 Special. There is no telling what a future owner would do with it. A hot 44 Special could be very dangerous in this rifle with a soft steel barrel. I defer to the side of caution.

[ndnchf]

Where did you get the centerfire breech block? I have a #2 in 32 rimfire I would like to convert over.

I had John Taylor convert another #2 I have in 32 rimfire, to centerfire. I swapped that block into the 44. It fit perfectly.

[ndnchf]

I have some 41 mag brass coming to try. The only possible issue is the small rim it has. I'll have to see if they will extract ok. If so, great. Cases will be much easier to make.

[ndnchf]

Where did you get the centerfire breech block? I have a #2 in 32 rimfire I would like to convert over.

Here is my discussion of the converted 32 XL rimfire #2. I shoot this one a lot.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?398513-2-Remington-rolling-block-32-Ballard-Extra-Long-(XL)

[ndnchf]

It's been a busy day in the shop making cases and loading. But I now have 20 loaded rounds ready to go. Hope to get some range time this week.

I made a video that explains my process for making cases. Maybe you'll find it interesting.

https://youtu.be/iVzb4WopeAM

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello ndnchf,

Looks good! But I hate to be an old mother hen, take that ring off while you still have your fingers.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Lostinidaho]

Great video. I am always trying to resurrect firearms in obsolete chamberings. A lathe would be nice.

[ndnchf]

Hello ndnchf,

Looks good! But I hate to be an old mother hen, take that ring off while you still have your fingers.

AntiqueSledMan.

Good point. I usually do, just forgot this time....

[ndnchf]

Great video. I am always trying to resurrect firearms in obsolete chamberings. A lathe would be nice.

It is indeed. I've had this one for over 30 years and made hundreds of things on it, its like an old friend. I don't know what I'd do without it.

[Drm50]

I don’t know finer points of the small RBs. How do you tell a #2 model.

[ndnchf]

I don’t know finer points of the small RBs. How do you tell a #2 model.

The easiest way at a glance is to look at the rear of the action on both sides. It is scalloped or curved where it meets the stock. All others are straight. They are about 2/3rds the size of a #1.

[ndnchf]

The Starline 41 Mag brass arrived yesterday. I cut one down to size and tried it in the chamber - yes, it will work. The rim is a little smaller, but the extractor still grabs it reliably. I made 19 more cases in short order. All I had to do was cut and trim to length - .965". Then anneal, expand the case mouths and load. This is much easier :smile: I should have watched Larry Potterfield's video sooner [smilie=b:

The expander plug I made is about .407". The BACO heel bullets are about .411" - .412" on the heel. I used a 44 Mag seating die to seat the bullets and it worked well. They are firmly seated. But after the first firing, the cases will expand a bit. I can use the .303 Savage sizer to size them back to where I want them. But I talked to Bernie Rowles (Old West Bullet Molds) last night and ordered a 44 S&W American collet crimp die and a few sample bullets from his 44 S&W American bullet mold to try out. From the photos on his web site, they look nearly identical to the BACO bullet.

I now have 40 rounds loaded and am looking forward to getting to the range for its baptism of fire :grin:

[Lostinidaho]

Keep us informed. This has been really interesting follow. It has application to many obsolete cartridges.

[ndnchf]

This was my first time out with the 140+ year old rifle. My goal was to verify proper functionality, collect chronograph data and see if the bullets flew straight. I was successful on all accounts.

After a lot of research, I made up four loads to start, 10 rounds each.

Load #1 was 22.0gr of Swiss 1.5, lightly compressed, my home made black powder lube in the exposed lube groove. 303 Savage brass, WLR primer. This gave an average velocity of 1023fps.

Observations: This shot well, but I had one light hammer strike. Cases extracted easily.

Load #2 was 13.0 gr of Blackhorn 209, lightly compressed, my home made smokeless lube. 303 Savage brass, Fed 215 LR magnum primer. This gave an average velocity of 931fps.

Observations: This shot well, but I had one light hammer strike. I think the LR primers may be a little too hard for this rifle. Cases extracted a little harder.

Load #3 was 16.8gr of Reloader 7, filled to base of the bullet, my home made smokeless lube, .41 Magnum brass, CCI LP primers. This gave an average velocity of 1023fps.

Observations: This shot well, no misfires. Cases extracted easily. The avg. velocity was exactly the same as load #1 with Swiss 1.5. The agrees with what the late John Kort said. That a case full of RL-7 closely duplicates the original black powder loading velocity and pressures in pistol size case. I've had the same experience with .32-20 and .32-Ballard XL.

Load #4 was 5.0gr of Unique, my home made smokeless lube, .41 Magnum brass, CCI LP primers. This gave an average velocity of 807fps.

Observations: This shot very well, but case mouths were not sealing. Potentially the most accurate load.

So overall I'm very pleased with this rifle for the first time out. Its not tack driver. It has the original barrel sights, no tang sight and my aging eyes. But there was no keyholing and it was reasonably accurate with the heel bullets and just fireforming the cases.

The rifle functioned fine and there is real potential here. Bernie Rowels is sending me his .44SWA collet crimp die and sample bullets from his .44 SWA mold. It looks nearly identical to the BACO bullet. I will most likely order this mold after I test his bullets.

More to come as I continue load development.

[Mk42gunner]

Very interesting thread; I like to read about getting old rifles shooting again, especially #2 rolling blocks.

You are right when you said earlier they are not large rifles and deserve to be used with caution. In my opinion they are just a touch larger than the typical boys rife, such as a #4 Remington, but an order of magnitude higher in quality.

I remember reading in Frank DeHass's book Single Shot Rifles and Actions (which I can't find right now) that the #2 is okay for .32-20, but not for the high speed rifle loads.

I believe the #2 was developed from the RRB pistols, and I have read that the centerfire breech block from one can be used to convert a RF #2 to centerfire. Don't believe it is a simple drop in switch; the firing pin still needs to be moved, and it takes a lot of work to make the extractor function properly. I know because that is the route I took with my .32.

If I had it to do over again I would either convert the original bb to centerfire, or buy one of the new bb castings.

I apologize for drifting the thread, but there always seems to be a lot of interest in #2 Remingtons.

Robert

[ndnchf]

I have #1, 2 and 4s - the #2s are my favorites. I really enjoy the process of getting these old rifles shooting again. I am very respectful of their age and metallurgy. I like to start with black powder loads. It's only after a lot of research do I load any smokeless. The RL7 came in right around the velocity I expected. The Unique load was lower than expected. I may bump that up by .5gr, maybe to 6.0. But I'm more concerned with accuracy rather the speed. I have no desire to go above the load #1 velocity. It's a fun rifle!

[ndnchf]

Perusing the archives, I came across a post describing a couple bullet lube recipes that appeared in a 1943 American Rifleman magazine. One was said to be a factory lube for external lube groove/heel bullet ammunition. Apparently it is a little harder/less sticky than lubes for internal groove bullets. Its a simple recipe and I happened to have all the ingredients on hand, so I made a small batch to try out.

1 part paraffin (in my case, a cheap green candle I chopped up)
1 part mutton tallow
1/2 part beeswax

I'll try to dip lube the bullet of completed rounds and see how it does the next time out.

[Lostinidaho]

I would like to hear how that mixture works.

I have a couple black powders that shoot .515 bullets. My molds don't seem to hold enough lube once they are put in the case.

I have tried dipping the bullets after they are loaded to get a thin coat of lube. Unless it is on the straight side of the bullet I don't think it would help.

But the lube is soft (oil and beeswax) and melts in the truck to the range in the summer. I thought of just using beeswax alone.

I thought paraffin made hard to remove black goop. At least with black powder. But maybe that is not what you are planning to use.

[ndnchf]

This is a harder, presumably smokeless lube. For BP, I use either SPG or my own home made BP lube. Both are softer. I'm going to try dipping the bullets after loading, then wiping the excess of the noses. Probably still be a messy operation. Bernie sells an upside down Lyman lube die set up for doing a finished cartridge. Its probably the cleanest way to go. But then I'd want yet another lubesizer dedicated to this lube. But I could also use it with my 32 Ballard XL bullets.

[ndnchf]

I got looking at a pile of Lyman/Ideal 427098 bullets I cast a while back for a 44-40. Noticing the similarity to the BACO heel bullets I bought, I thought hmmm, maybe I can make them into suitable heel bullets. I put one in the lathe and turned the base band down to .412". That left .150" long heel - the same length as the BACO bullet heel. So I made up a dummy round and it chambered fine. So I turned 39 more :-)

[ndnchf]

Second trip to the range today with this rifle. My goal was to see if the Ideal 427098 bullets that I lathe cut heels on would work. I'm pleased to say they did.

The rifle's groove diameter is .430", the bullets were the same size. Usually I prefer bullets .001- .0015" over groove size. But this is what I had on hand. They were cast of 40-1 alloy, which helps.

They drilled nice straight holes at 50 yds, so I'm very happy with that. The biggest problem is my aging eyes and the original barrel sights. It really seemed to like the Old Eynsford 3F and Unique loads. It grouped well despite the errant shots that are my fault. It does show good potential. I'll make more 427098 here bullets :-)

[ndnchf]

I just got back from the range :-)

I was able to collect more chronograph data. I was particularly interested in seeing what the 3F Old Eynsford would do. Thus old E load is about as close as I can get to the original 44 rimfire cartridge. All these were loaded with a 40-1 Lyman 427098 bullet with the last band turned down to a .412" heel. They weigh 208gr. Shortened .41 Magnum brass was used.

6.0gr Unique, CCI LP primer = avg 973fps

12.5gr by weight Blackhorn 209, CCI LPM primer = avg 847fps

22.0gr by weight Old Eynsford 3F. CCI LP primer = avg 1092fps.

I should note that I dont yet have the collet crimp die from Bernie Rowles. It should be here early next week.

Accuracy has been very good. The Old E load sounded very nice. It's not quite at the 44-40 level. But it's quite respectable.

In case you can't tell, I'm really enjoying this rifle :-)

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello ndnchf,

Just curious, what was the bulk comparison of the 12.5gr Blackhorn 209 & the 22.0gr Old Eynsford 3F?

Thanks, AntiqueSledMan.

[ndnchf]

The blackhorn was a case full, drop tubed with just a little compression, maybe .030". The Old E load was drop tubed with about .080" compression. I can probably get one more grain of Old E in, if I compress a little more.

[Mk42gunner]

Good shooting, especially with the original sights on a #2.

Robert

[ndnchf]

I loaded more 44 centerfire for my #2 rolling block. I'm trying to replicate the original al 44 rimfire cartridge as close as possible. I don't know for sure how much powder the original rimfire cartridge held, but I suspect it was close to 25gr. The most I can get in the centerfire cases is 23gr., and that takes some work. Thats what I wanted to show.

The first image shows 23gr of Old Eynsford 3F just poured into the case from the scale. It starts to overflow the case. No way a bullet can be seated. The second image shows the same exact charge slowly poured through a 24" drop tube. The third image shows that same 23gr, drop tubed charge after being compressed about .075" using a compression die.

After compressing the powder, there is now about .155" between the case mouth and powder. The bullet's heel is .150". This makes a perfectly fitted powder column to the bullet.

Lastly, is the cartridge with the bullet seated and crimped using Bernie Rowles special collet crimp die. This is about as close as I can get to the original cartridge from 140 years ago. I'm hoping the increase from 22 to 23gr and the crimp will bring average velocity over the 1100 fps mark.

[ndnchf]

I really like this original 19th century factory bullet lube recipe.

1 part paraffin
1 part mutton tallow
1/2 part beeswax

It makes a wonderful dip lube because it is not sticky and keeps fouling soft. When dipped, it cools quickly to a thin wax shell on the bullet. I dipped lubed the current batch of .44 centerfire rounds.

[Mk42gunner]

I made some of that lube last winter, but haven't had a chance to try it out yet. I may have to put the rimfire block back in my .32 and try some of the awful Navy Arms .32 Long with it.

Robert

[ndnchf]

What kind of 32 rimfire do you have? I have another #2 in 32 extra long rimfire. With a centerfire block dropped in, its 32 Ballard Extra Long. It shoots very well, but I havent tried it with this lube yet.

[Mk42gunner]

Its a #2 that I have been shooting .32 Colt, both short and long through with a centerfire breechblock from one of the RB pistols. Still had to move the firing pin, so I think I would have been better off just converting the original block.

After some of your posts IIRC I really need to measure the chamber to see if it is the XL or not.

#2's are addicting little rifles though, aren't they? I like them better than the various #4's that I have handled.

Robert

[ndnchf]

Yes, #2s are my favorite. If you measure the chamber, I suspect you'll find it is XL length. Tonight I just started to cut down more brass to make more 32 Ballard XL. 1.15" is considered the standard length which works well with the 299153 heel bullet. But I've gone to cutting mine to 1.085" in order to use the Accurate 31-090 bullet. Jack Harrison sells both bullets.

[Mk42gunner]

I need to order that mold from Accurate. I have some that were sent to me by John Kort years ago. IIRC I used 2.0 grains of 231 for around 800 fps in WW .32 Long Colt cases.

Still dealing with storm damage here so it will wait a few more days.

Robert

[ndnchf]

Back at the range today. This time my loads were crimped with Bernie's collet crimper. The 22gr load of Old E 3F was about 30fps faster with the crimp, averaging 1120fps. The 6.0gr of Unique load gained over 50fps with the crimp - 1031fps.

Going from 22gr to 23gr of Old E 3F only gained me 4 fps for 1124fps. Both Old E and Unique loads were pretty accurate at 50 yds (the limit of my eyes with blurry barrel sights). But I think the Unique load was the best. It was hitting to the right initially, so I kept adjusting the sights. The last group was the best, centered at 6 O'clock.

The 19th century dip lube worked very well. Fouling was minimal and soft, and there was a nice lube star at the muzzle.

A good day at the range :-)

[Scrounge]

I loaded more 44 centerfire for my #2 rolling block. I'm trying to replicate the original al 44 rimfire cartridge as close as possible. I don't know for sure how much powder the original rimfire cartridge held, but I suspect it was close to 25gr. The most I can get in the centerfire cases is 23gr., and that takes some work. Thats what I wanted to show.

The first image shows 23gr of Old Eynsford 3F just poured into the case from the scale. It starts to overflow the case. No way a bullet can be seated. The second image shows the same exact charge slowly poured through a 24" drop tube. The third image shows that same 23gr, drop tubed charge after being compressed about .075" using a compression die.

After compressing the powder, there is now about .155" between the case mouth and powder. The bullet's heel is .150". This makes a perfectly fitted powder column to the bullet.

Lastly, is the cartridge with the bullet seated and crimped using Bernie Rowles special collet crimp die. This is about as close as I can get to the original cartridge from 140 years ago. I'm hoping the increase from 22 to 23gr and the crimp will bring average velocity over the 1100 fps mark.


This might help. It's from the 15th Edition of Cartridges of the World.

.44 Long Center Fire (Ballard)
Historical Notes: The .44 Long Center Fire (Ballard) was introduced, in 1875-’76, as one of
the chamberings for the J.M. Marlin Ballard Sporting Rifle No. 2. It was also used in a number
of other single-shot rifles, including those of Frank Wesson. It was replaced by the .44 Extra
Long CF, and then both were phased out by the more popular .44-40 WCF. It is the centerfire
equivalent of the .44 Long rimfire.
General Comments: This is a more-or-less transitional cartridge from the rimfire to the better
centerfires. Most early breech-loading rifles were developed for rimfire cartridges, and it was
a simple matter to bring out a similar centerfire for the same basic rifle. This allowed the
shooter to reload. However, most of these cartridges were no more effective than the rimfire
they replaced and, so, did not last long. The original load used 35 grains of black powder and
a 227-grain bullet. Muzzle velocity was low—only about 1100 to 1200 fps. As with the .44
Evans Long, Short, or Henry Flat Center Fire, cases can be made by cutting off .303 Savage
cases, but stick to black-powder and cast bullets.

[ndnchf]

Thanks, it's on my shelf!

[ndnchf]

I took the .44 rimfire/centerfire #2 rolling block to the range today. This was the first time out with bullets from the new Old West bullet mold. Accuracy was nothing to brag about. But its a good start. I made a short video of the fun.

https://youtu.be/f939OJjyNtQ

[Jedman]

I watched your video and see something you may not be aware of. You are resting the barrel on your front rest. Even a 22 short has barrel harmonics and will shoot inconsistent when anything touch’s the barrel. Try shooting it off the forend and see if it does not shoot better groups.
I have seen people shoot their long barreled heavy rifles off shooting sticks by resting the barrel on the crossed sticks but unless you you can duplicate the same point and pressure every shot the barrel will vibrate differently.
Good work and nice video !

Jedman

[ndnchf]

Good point. I was focusing more on doing the video than proper shooting technique. It actually shoots much better than this when I do my part.

[Mk42gunner]

Good point. I was focusing more on doing the video than proper shooting technique. It actually shoots much better than this when I do my part.

That's the truth with just about anything.

Robert

[Bent Ramrod]

Were you bothered by that little poof of gas out the back?

I have a cobbled-together #2 in .38RF that I shot one session (so far) with the Dixie rimfire adaptors, empty .22 shorts for primers, BP and the Ideal 37583 breech-seated.

I was wearing safety glasses with side shields, but I found the occasional hot particle on my cheek or forehead didn’t help the holding much. The Dixie adaptor rims didn’t last very long either. The thin brass got battered and twisted up after 10 shots or less.

[ndnchf]

That is blowby from the case mouth. The cut down 41 mag brass I use is a bit thick at the mouth. I probably should anneal them again. Do you still have that #2 in 38 rimfire? I'd be interested in the details. Bore/groove diameter, chamber length etc. I've had my eye out for one. I have other #2s in 32 cal, but not a 38.

[Bent Ramrod]

My .38 was a barreled action when I found it. Got a mostly shaped and inletted stock from Shuttleworth for it and married a crescent buttplate onto it.

The barrel is longer than my .22 and .32 RF #2s, the rifling is very good, but the chamber had a nasty gouge in it that I had to make a tool and iron out. The Dixie cases extracted well, but something of higher pressure might still stick. I’ve been pondering reaming it out for a shortened and blown-straight .30-30 case to make an “inside lubed” version, and converting to centerfire.

Haven’t done any measurements on it. It’s in the back of the safe, awaiting the next round of “Waltzing Matilda.” A lot of troublemakers of one sort or another in the queue ahead of it.

[ndnchf]

Ok, sounds like a fun project.